Luxury Lounge

tayl0rd

I believe I asked this before but didn't get any response. Won't the new 1-series make the Z4 Coupe/M Coupe superfluous or vice versa? :confuse: What's the point of it?

louiswei

Z4 Coupe/M Coupe IMO is just a roadster with an unmovable hardtop (think Boxster vs Cayman), which means it doesn't have a rear seat. On the other hand, the 1-series coupe is a 2-door that comes with a rear seat whether it is useful or not. Also, I believe the Z4 Coupe/M Coupe is lighter and smaller than the 1 coupe.

I think the reason that BMW is bring the 1-series over to the state side is because the 3er is getting too big. With every iteration it is getting away from its original segment/market further and further. BMW needs something to fill the void, thus the 1-series.

The Z4, whether it's the convertible or coupe version, will remain as a niche model. The 1-series will become a mainstream model if everything goes as BMW has planned.

tagman

All very good points to consider. From the sound of it, the 1-Series will be a 2-passenger car with token rear seats.

I do , however, think it will be a hot performer... but since I need to stay on the practical side with this car, it sounds like I'll likely have to pass.

Just so you know my situation... my final goal is to reduce our number of cars in the family to three... and make every one of them serve a purpose.

1. Luxury SUV - must seat 7, reasonable gas mileage, luxury appointments. Likely a Mercedes GL diesel or GL550, although I will check out the LX570. This vehicle will replace the current MDX.

2. Sports Car - IMO, the Porsche Carrera S fills this slot perfectly.

3. Practical vehicle to commute, hold cargo, seat at least 4 passengers, preferably 4-doors, better-than-average fuel economy. Enjoyable to drive and comfortable interior. Currently the GTI is the car in this slot, although I would consider waiting to trade it in for a GLK diesel or GLK AMG (sacrifice good mpg), or a Tiguan diesel, or possibly some other new vehicle that has not been released or announced yet.

Once the Luxury SUV is added to the mix, I would get rid of the Jag XJ Vanden Plas, as it would serve little purpose any more...

Final result is a luxury SUV, a sports car, and a practical/fun vehicle.

What do you think?

TagMan

louiswei

TagMan, that seems to be great situation to be in. Here are my suggestions...

Scenario 1, money is not an issue:

Lux SUV - LX570, GL550 or Range Rover all seems pretty good to me.
Sports Car - Carrera S is an excellent choice. I would check out the new Acura NSX when it's out and also the Lexus LF-A ( :P just messing with you, I know how you think of Lexus)
Practical Commuter - M3 Sedan.

Scenario 2, money is an issue but just barely:

Lux SUV - MDX or X5. LR3 wouldn't be a bad choice either. The only beef I have with the MDX is the fake wood.
Sports Car - Corvette Z06 or Boxster/Cayman S.
Practical Commuter - Subaru WRX STi, Mitsu Evo or you current GTI are all great choices. I would also check out the 335i sedan, G35S, CTS and the TL-S. If time is not an issue then wait for the next TL. Rumor has it that it'll pack 300HP and SH-AWD.

Scenario 3, money is an issue:

Lux SUV - GM Lambdas, especially the Buick Enclave. The new Highlander looks very promising as well despite the so so exterior styling.
Sports Car - Corvette, 135i or G37.
Practical Commuter - Honda Civic Si Sedan.

Hope you like my list.

dewey

Speaking of independently owned Chrysler; I wonder if the ME-4-12 will finally come to fruition.

Very unlikely. The ME four twelve idea was born during the unhappy marriage of Daimler and Chrysler. Today this newborn seems as good as dead (although never say never).

Most the rumblings I hear from Chrysler is about closer links with Chery from China to produce some real cheap sub-compacts.

dewey

Scenario 3, money is an issue:

Lux SUV - GM Lambdas, especially the Buick Enclave. The new Highlander looks very promising as well despite the so so exterior styling.
Sports Car - Corvette, 135i or G37.
Practical Commuter - Honda Civic Si Sedan.

If money is an issue then this would be my Scenario:

Lux SUV - NONE
Sports Car - NONE
Practical Commuter -a used Civic or a subway token

bristol2

This looks fun...

1. Money no issue:
Lux SUV- MB G-Wagon with diesel. The boxy ones. Not the new, sleek number.
Sports Car- Aston Martin Vanquish or Jaguar E-Type restoration.
Practical Commuter- BMW 535 x wagon (money no issue...)

2. Money is barely an issue:
Lux SUV- Lexus 570, MB GL550
Sports Car- what you have.
Practical Car- 2008 Honda Accord EX-L i4.

3. Money is an issue:
Lux SUV- Ford Expedition (you said 7 people) Eddie Bauer.
Sports Car- It's a cheat since you already have it...your 911. If we have to trade it because money is an issue- Honda S2000
Practical Commuter- Mazda6

I could do this stuff all day!

bristol2

We have to widen the definition of 'money is an issue' to a Luxury Lounge car buyer.
Anyway, it's no fun at that end. All used Chevy Trailblazers and Ford Crown Vics....

jlbl

If money is an issue then this would be my Scenario:

Lux SUV - NONE
Sports Car - NONE
Practical Commuter -a used Civic or a subway token

Or rather a good old Fiat 500 :shades:

Jose

houdini1

Uh oh. Dewey, fast, cancel my order!!

houdini1

Speaking of the LX 570, I was reading an article on some obscure on line mag and it said Lexus was considering also equipping it with a 4.5 turbocharged v8 diesel engine developing around 208 HP.

Maybe we will see it here in about 10 years!!

I also have to admit that I am just a little disappointed with the looks of the new 570. At least the pics. It kind of looks like a large Highlander or a giant Rav4. I hope I like it more in the flesh.

tagman

My guess is that the LX570 will look good in person, and the interior will be very nice... no doubt overly-loaded with gadgets and gizmos.

Should drive nice, too.

TagMan

tagman

OK... it was interesting entertaining the possibilites for various combinations of vehicles.

I can't help but wonder where the need for a HELM sedan comes into play to the extent it once did. Seems less needed in most folks equation. Afterall, a luxury SUV nowadays is so nice that it can be used in lieu of the luxury sedan. In fact, the mid-priced, mid-sized and even the smaller sedans are becoming incredibly equipped and nice to drive

Yet, currently sales of the HELM sedans seem to still be strong.

I am going to go out on a limb here and predict that the longer term trend will be towards diminishing sales for HELM sedans.

Comments on my prediction, please?

TagMan

jcoby

I see that you would consider the GLK or Tiguan as the "practical vehicle to commute" even with another SUV in the garage. Would you really want 2 SUVs in the household, or would it be possible for the GLK or Tiguan to replace the larger SUV if either the GLK or Tiguan can be equipped with a useful folding 3rd row seat?

jcoby

I am going to go out on a limb here and predict that the longer term trend will be towards diminishing sales for HELM sedans.

Certainly an interesting and bold prediction. I do not really believe that there are diminishing sales prospects for HELM sedans in the long run simply because of the wealth of many HELM buyers. I doubt that there are a significant number of HELM buyers that are completely replacing their sedans with SUVs; they are more likely to add SUVs to their fleet of other vehicles.

Also, an SUV will not quite be able to compare to a sedan in terms of overall dynamic excellence. Even if you took the exact platform of a HELM sedan and simply made the minimal number of adjustments necessary for that platform to be suitable for the foundation of a SUV, the SUV that is then created will not be quite as smooth-riding or agile as the sedan. As long as people want the very best (ride, handling, quietness, etc.) available from their favored brand, there will be a healthy demand for a HELM sedan because this type of vehicle is better able to meet those demands than a comparable SUV.

I know that these two vehicles are on completely different platforms, but could you imagine trying to pilot a GL550 the same way that you have piloted a S550? I doubt that the handling and comfort of the GL550 could compare to that of the S550 when they are both driven near their handling limits. I just do not see too many HELM buyers settling for the compromised performance of a SUV (and forgoing a HELM sedan purchase) unless there is an actual use (however small) for a SUV in their household.

anthonyp

O K TagMan, I would agree with the exception that there are a horde of people coming along that haven`t owned a HELM therefore they are going to get one....We who have been fortunate to have already owned them, and therefore have the luxury to think it through, will change the equasion, and I for one plan on `leading the way`---In otherwords follow Hpowders alias Mr. H unless he doesn`t get a bmw 5...My thinking is if we get a car every four years and the second car with a two year lag, then we will have a new car of some sort every two years...It should be easier if they were both bmw, one the 5 the other the stationwagon...with different colors and different interiors, but the same superb ride...Now I had great results with my change from GM to Lexus long ago, so I am seriously going to give the Hyundi luxury car a close look as this may be the next Lexus...This is just the thoughts right now...Tomorrow it will change probably Tony ps I like you quick action when you pull the trigger..

bristol2

Well, I would flip the paradigm. If a luxury sedan can move 5 people plus luggage in comfort and an SUV can do the same thing, why choose the SUV?
It doesn't handle as well, it has worse mpg and it's slower.
Certainly an SUV is potentially more adaptable but that gets back into the arguement about how people actually use their SUV. In essence, what have you done with your SUV recently that you cannot do with a full size sedan?

I think ultimately it will be mpg that hold the SUV at bay. Having said that it does seem that many soccer moms (whatever the luxury version should be, lacrosse-moms, polo-moms etc) now consider an SUV to be a requirement even when a car would the job just as well and as we all know, it is the wife's choice that decides the question....

topspin628

OK, so I'm getting down to the wire. I just got some prices on the BMW 535xi optioned up with all the goodies: Sport Package (on the xi the sp includes comfort seats,shadow line trim and sport steering wheel-no change in suspension which is fine with me),auto trans, logic 7, hud,cold weather, Prem Package, Ipod, Nav. The dealer's first shot out of the box was about 2800 over invoice which converts to a very good lease price for either 24 or 36 mos. As you may remember, I am ending my Lexus LS 430 lease, a car which I wound up getting by "default" because I just couldn't find anything else out there in my price range that "rang my bell".
So after 3 flawless, comfortable and numbing years, I am again looking for the "gusto". I like the 5 series but it's not a "gotta have it" car for me. Sometimes when I get a car that I lust after, the honeymoon soon ends and the blemishes become apparent. With my last BMW 330i, I liked it and then the more I drove it the more I loved it. So maybe that will happen again with the 5 series. The 550i which leases at about 250 per month more (8K difference in price!) is a real looker because I really like the sport trim available (body moldings) but I worry that the sport suspension and the wider tires will make the ride too jarring on the lousy NY streets. Shipo,do you know if you can you get the body moldings on a 535?

I don't want another LS especially since the new model is so similar in feel and costs substantially more than the one I have. The BMW 7 is in contention, but again I don't know if I can justify the price difference to the 5 and I really don't need the room, it's just that I've gotten used to a big car ride. Maybe I should try the 6? I love the looks and it is kind of a rare car- don't see too many around. It's expensive but to me it's kind of close in look and style to the Bentley GT, the car that I would drive if I won the lottery and if I could also have a Prius for my conscience. The Jag XJ8 can be had for a very good price these days. I love the look but it kind of drove like an Avalon or Buick to me. Maybe I'm missing something. I also don't think that the interior is anything special-not like the Jags I remember. But I do love that style and again it's not so common- except in SO. CAl where I saw a lot of them last week. Oh, and by the way, in Beverly Hills, it's all S Class all the time and very few LS460s.

So the bottom line, doc, is that I need a car I can love for 15,000 miles a year in the congested NE where my average stint behind the wheel is about 2-2.5 hours per day. Yes, I want comfort, reliability, style and something special. I want to get excited every time I go into my garage just to sneak a peak at my ride and every time I fire up the engine.

You guys understand; If you didn't you wouldn't be here at Edmunds. I admit it, I am a Car-aholic! Within 6 mos of my 3 year leases, I find myself wandering by car dealerships "just looking". Then about one year in, I actually go in and start taking test drives... It's horrible-but fun:)

I want it all!
Let the fun begin.
Comments? (Be nice)

bristol2

Do you have the option to go purely for fun?

Does it have to be something that you can fit a few people and some stuff in?

If you have the option of going just for fun that would open some new options...

tagman

You keep pointing to a HELM sedan, and you seem to love that seductive style of the Jaguar XJ.

On the other hand, you are in the NE, not California... we must be S-Class country in this state, as they are everywhere... but still a great vehicle.

From my perspective, based upon your posts... I think you must choose between the Jaguar XJ and the Mercedes S-Class. Given that choice, I'd choose the Mercedes S-Class without a doubt.

Remember, we own the XJ due to wife's turn to choose. I would have chosen the S-Class, although it must be said that the XJ Vanden Plas has had zero problems and has been a pleasure to own and operate, getting extraordinary gas mileage. My son absolutely loves that huge back seat area where he stretches out and watches a movie using the rear seat entertainment system... spoiled at 8!

If money is not a big obstacle, I still say get the S-Class. It's still early in its model cycle, unlike the Jag, which is very long in the tooth.

The S-Class is modern and drives like a dream and has wonderful performance dynamics for such a large car. The interior is modern and conservative with just the right amount of class. It doesn't have that typical Japanese center console and center stack treatment that has been around and bored many of us for ages.

When I drove it, I was so impressed. So, given all your last posts, I shift my emphasis from the XJ to the S-Class. You will love it for MANY years to come and always be proud to see it in your garage, as well as sitting in its beautiful driver's cockpit.

Go for it!!! Stop the anxiety... you won't regret it at all.

TagMan

tagman

Well, I would flip the paradigm.

AH... good logic, but I see the SUVs becoming more like cross-utility vehicles, so their platforms are really much smoother than the SUVs of past years. They are getting more comfort amenities than ever before... as much or more than sedans, and the rear seat cargo versatility is impossible to match with a sedan.

Also, the trend towards mid and small SUVs, or cross-dressers, or whatever you want to call them is obvious. The giant SUV isn't really as necessary as was once thought. There is more than ample space in the smaller SUVs and cross-utility vehicles, or SAV, for Sport Activity Vehicle (I think BMW gets credit for that one). Even wagons will experience sales growth, although not huge, but nonetheless noteworthy.

So, I see your point, but I'm not convinced. And even more so, as you see hybrid and other alternative powertrains making their debut in SUVs, SAVs, wagons, and CUVs, I'd have to say that they are the future growth market, more than sedans.

....IMHO

TagMan

tagman

Holy smokes... wait to you read these articles for yourselves.

Just who was it that was posting doom and gloom for German carmakers, especially Mercedes Benz? Who was it that said the Japanese will rule over the Germans?

These should send a shockwave straight through Tokyo.

link title

link title

...boasts the lowest petrol consumption figures of a large luxury saloon in the history of the motor car”, explains Dr. Thomas Weber, Member of the DaimlerChrysler AG Board of Management responsible for Group Research and Mercedes Car Group Development.

It appears that we may be talking about levels of fuel efficiency that will put the LS600hL to absolute SHAME!



TagMan

topspin628

Yes, I had the S Class on my original short list. I drove the car and found that they softened it up a bit from the previous model which was the best driving car I had ever tested. The new gen has a much better quality interior but the car seemed to drive much more similar to my Lexus than the last model. And I can't say that price isn't in the equation at all. I'm looking to keep my lease at around 1,000-1100 per month with 0 Dn (I was at 950 on my LS)and the new S is around 1600-1700 per month.) I was hoping that the smaller engines (less expensive and better fuel economy for the environment's sake)would be available but it doesn't look like that will be in time for me.
I must admit that a big part of the appeal of the Jag is price. But of course, you can't drive "price" and it doesn't make you happy in the long run. (It's tempting to consider a car that is in the S Class, A8, 7 series category for the price of the E Class, A6, 5 series.)
As for a "fun" car. Yeah, I can open it up to that as long as "fun" includes comfort. I don't need big back seat room or a huge trunk but I wouldn't be comfortable slogging through traffic in a Cayman for instance. Noise is a factor for me, so while I don't need Lexus type isolation, I also do not want a sports car type engine drone and a stick is out of the question.

bristol2

Have you considered a Jag XK?
It sounds like you are tempted by something in Jaguar and this is more of a cruiser than a 2-seater.

Someone on this thread owns one I believe...

tagman

Yes, I had the S Class on my original short list. I drove the car and found that they softened it up a bit from the previous model which was the best driving car I had ever tested. The new gen has a much better quality interior but the car seemed to drive much more similar to my Lexus than the last model.

When I test drove the LS460L and the latest S-Class, I found the LS460L to be a bit isolated from the road and the steering to be almost numb. I found the S-Class to be more connected to the road and the steering was perfect for a car of that class. I also felt that the driving dynamics were quite a bit better in the S-Class. Comfort and convenience were superb.

There is no perfect answer, but for goodness sakes, it just doesn't get much better than the S-Class for a car in that category.

TagMan

dewey

tagman

a little wordy perhaps, but, nonetheless a well-said, excellent post!
TM

dewey

There are times when silence has the loudest voice.

In fact I was unable to delete that post so instead I chose to delete its contents.

tagman

I've had that happen to me as well. The delete function quits before the edit function, so there is little choice.

I was just kidding you, of course.

But... now you've raised my curiosity.

TagMan

edit: did you read my post 5373?

houdini1

I am toying with the idea of buying a certified used LS 430, from a local dealer. No nav, but about everything else with 42k miles. Drives like new. Asking price is $29,500.

What do you guys think about this price and this car?

tagman

Whoops - in all your excitement, you didn't mention the year.
TagMan

louiswei

Tag, my man, I think it's time you need a new pair of glasses...

Look closely at the title again.

LOL!!

louiswei

Luxury cars included in that list:

Lexus ES
Lexus LS

Luxury cars included in the "Bad bets" list:

BMW 7-series
Infiniti QX56
Jaguar X-type
V8-powered Mercedes-Benz M-class
Mercedes-Benz SL
V6-powered Volvo XC90

Here's the complete list:

Good Bets: Honda Civic, Honda CR-V, Honda Element, Lexus ES, Lexus LS, Toyota 4Runner, Toyota Highlander, Toyota Land Cruiser, Toyota Prius, Toyota RAV4

Bad Bets: BMW 7-series, Infiniti QX56, Jaguar X-type, V8-powered Mercedes-Benz M-class, Mercedes-Benz SL, Nissan Armada, Nissan Titan, Volkswagen Touareg, V6-powered Volvo XC90

Source: Drive Your Car to Death, Save $31,000

tagman

Thank you. I read the post, but never the title.

My oversight. Sorry, but the joke's on me.

I'll make an appointment with the eye doc immediately!

BTW, did you drive the car?

TagMan

tagman

All "good bets" are Japanese. Surprise, surprise!!

What about the JD Power Buick?

Truth is... I totally believe that CR is biased towards Japanese cars. While I recognize some of the merits of the rice-burners, I am quite convinced that CR gives too much credit to the Japanese cars.

TagMan

pat

If it's any consolation I miss the title ALL the time!! :P

louiswei

BTW, did you drive the car?

Was the question for me or houdini? If it's for me then the answer is no. Never like the LS430 and don't have a desire to drive a land yacht. I am interested in the LS460 though since it "looks" much sportier than its predecessor. However I wouldn't be surprised if they both drive about the same. Too bad the last Taste of Lexus event I went to they didn't offer the LS for us to drive.

I also don't like cars that are larger than the 5-series.

louiswei

I am quite convinced that CR gives too much credit to the Japanese cars.

Tag,

Give credit when credit is due...

No doubt the Germans built excellent performance machines but the Japanese dominates in the reliability end. The Buick was selected to tie with Lexus as the most reliable within the 36 months. This list from CR is for 200,000 miles. If one drives 15,000 miles per year on average then that's over 13 years!!! Big difference.

dewey

A Toyota Prius as the best car to own for 200K miles?

Is this some kind of bad joke. How many Priuses are there with over 200K miles in order to even make such a ludicrous conclusion.

My friend who drove his 01 Prius at about 50K miles almost ended up with $5K expenses due to hybrid related repairs.(fortunately his warranty expired two weeks after that event).

Who the hell wants to drive a Toyota Prius for up to 200K miles unless they love the high risk of burning money on batteries or hybrid components? I know very few of those types since I dont know anybody who is employed by COnsumers Report.

What a load of bunk!

tagman

Give credit when credit is due...

Actually, I think CR should give credit where credit is due, and less credit based upon "expectations based upon other or similar models". I get so tired of that excuse. Heck, every model from the same manufacturer doesn't have the same reliability... so those "expectations" are nothing more than CR bias, IMHO.

TagMan

dewey

My 83 MB 300D that will sooner or later reach 300 K miles is proof of German car reliability. I dont need to sit on a high stool and be lectured by a CR fortune teller on what cars are best to own up to 200K miles.

tagman

In the confusion, the question should have been directed to houdini.

I should know better than to post when I'm trying to work on a project at the same time. Heck, there might also be some errors in the project, and that would be very bad.

Time to stop (the project... LOL).

TagMan

louiswei

Your friend's Prius is just a single case out of many Prius ownerships. I wouldn't be surprised to see many old 7-series and Mercedes-Benz SL with over 200K miles 10 years from now.

louiswei

Tag,

You really need a new pair of glasses then. Houdini did say in his original post that the 2003 LS460 drives like new.

LOL!!

Okay, I am done messing with ya. :P

tagman

Houdini did say in his original post that the 2003 LS460 drives like new.

I REALLY need to keep my priorities in order and STOP trying to get work done at the same time I am posting on Edmunds! Edmunds should be my top priority! LOL.

Thanks for the "glasses" joke X 2.

Now for the clincher... you just posted that he drove a 2003 LS460, but it was actually an LS430. :P

I guess I'll meet you at the optometrist office picking out some glasses of your own!

Gosh... payback is sweet sometimes.

TagMan

louiswei

LOL!!

Yeah, I meant the LS430, not LS460.

However I think we have different problems, you need to concentrate and I need to slow down my typing so my brain can keep up...

:P

tagman

Just goes to show the best of us make mistakes.
TM

houdini1

OK, it is a 2003 and no I haven't driven this particular one yet, but I will if I get the go ahead from you.

tagman

Well, if you are willing to drive a comparable S-Class, I might give you the go-ahead.

Seriously though, you need to check the 2003 LS430 pricing in your area... Missouri, right? If it seems in line, then by all means drive the car, and check it out thoroughly. You realize that I've not owned a Lexus, and if there are particular areas to watch for, I can't help you out on that. Lexusguy could be one of the posters here to have some helpful hints.

One thing, though... and you and I have agreed on this before... make sure the car itself is what you want, and it's equipped the way you really want it, and the color is one you like, and it's in really great condition. Otherwise, why bother?

Good luck... I hope everything works out.

TagMan

houdini1

Come on now, you know there is no S class that is comparable to an LS.

I've got the fever a little bit but I think I might try to wait a while longer before I take the plunge. I do think this particular car is a "good" buy, if there is such a thing. Edmunds shows a price of around $34,000.

I haven't driven an S class in a long time so maybe that is not such a bad idea. It never hurts to validate ones opinions from time to time.