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Suppose that 8 years from now, you have a C diesel hybrid and an IS diesel hybrid on the market. Suppose further that the cars have the exact same manufacturing/disposal environmental impact, and also get the exact same mpg.
The C diesel hybrid owners are found to use their cars 7500 miles per year on average. The IS diesel hybrid owners, 9500.
Which car is worse for the environment?
calling me illogical and calling the study idiotic is not helping this discussion at all.
Insults are only used when facts are lacking.
So why dont we just focus on the facts.
This new comparsion of yours does not even come close to the Hummer/Prius or MB hybrid Blutec/E comparison.
Mfg/disposal costs are very different between hybrids and non-hybrids and that is exactly why the Prius stands out so unfavorable in terms of environmental effects.
Comparing two hybrids with the same mpg and same enviro effects is not at all the same like what we were initially discussing.
But since you raised this comparison just for the sake of raising it then why dont we look at it.
The IS diesel hybrid will be more environmentally friendly because due to its higher usage it will have a higher longetivity than a hyrbid diesel MB C.
The higher the longetivity of a car the less environmental impact a car will have . Think of it-- a person who buys a hybrid every 50K miles vs. a hybrid every 100K miles will have a more averse impact on the environment due to higher mfg/disposal affects.
USA is the land of the consumer. Seventy two percent of the US economy (GNP) consists of consumer spending. The dire need of replacing a competent hardly driven car, a hardly used appliance or a relatively new entertainment centre with the newest and best every few years contributes to environmental destruction. Excessive consumption itself is bad for the environment.
Germany is quite a contrast to the USA:
Why shop till you drop when your neighbors are throwing away perfectly good stuff?
Sven Brylla has been furnishing his apartments for years with discarded furniture, wood and fittings snagged off the streets of Berlin.
In his kitchen stands a fridge so old that it predates electricity. Meltwater from a metal icebox once ran between the panels of the wooden cabinet, cooling its contents. Now it's his cupboard.
His kitchen table is a gnarled old workbench. He found his favorite armchair at a garbage dump. His revolving inventory of street junk has included 20 vintage radios and half a dozen prewar bicycles made in the USSR.
In many other countries, dumpster divers like Mr. Brylla would be written off as eccentrics. In Germany, he's just a normal 36-year-old graphic printer brought up to look down on wasting money on new things when sturdy old stand-bys are there for the taking.
"Consumption is nothing good," says Mr. Brylla. "It brings evil into the world."
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Don't you see that this is a nonsensical result?
Let's invent a new term for the sake of this discussion; the "pollutil" is a unit of pollution. Let's say that both the IS and C diesel hybrids create 100,000 pollutils (each) in their manufacturing/disposal, and 1 pollutil per mile driven (we are assuming identical mpg). Let's say both cars are kept on average 10 years.
We are assuming 7500 mi/yr for the C and 9500 for the IS.
The idiotic study takes 75,000 lifetime miles for the C, adds to the 100k for manufacturing/disposal, and divides by 75k lifetime miles, yielding 2.33 pollutils per mile driven, compared to 2.05 pollutils for the IS, hence the conclusion that the IS is "less polluting per mile" which is true. But it is manifestly NOT TRUE that this equates to being more environmentally friendly....
Because if you look at the lifetime pollutil impact, it is 175k for the C and 195k for the IS, because the IS is driven more miles.
Now, there are really only two rational ways of looking at this issue:
- either the cars are equal in environmental impact, and any differences are due to the amount the cars are driven, which is really the "fault" of the owners, not the cars themselves. This is how I prefer to look at it.
- or we could look at lifetime pollutil impact, in which case the C wins, but only because its drivers happen to drive less.
The idiotic study nonsensically comes to the OPPOSITE and totally irrational conclusion, that the IS is somehow "cleaner". But this is a function of driving MORE, and thus creating MORE pollution, not less!
Idiotic study.
Idiotic study.
Idiotic study.
Nothing moronic about that conclusion.
In scrap yards different models of cars have different odometer readings than each others. The lower a car's usage usually implies lower odometer readings in scrap yards. The CNW Report assumes more Prius replacements based on the low mileage driven by Prius owners. That is a fair assumption.
The point of the scenario was to put forth conditions where everything is the same, except miles driven per year, and see if the results make sense. They don't, because the study is inherently flawed.
The CNW Report assumes more Prius replacements based on the low mileage driven by Prius owners.
And where did they get the information? Did the author just pull it out of his own butt?
I found this on another forum:
I just glanced at Kelly Blue Book. For a 1997 Hummer H1, the "typical mileage" is 87,000 miles. In comparison, the typical mileage for a 2001 Prius (first year it was offered) is 73,000.
I couldn't find where on the KBB site that info is, or maybe the poster was looking at a hardcopy. If you divide by the number of years, the Prius looks to be driven an average of over 12,000 miles per year, not 7,500.
As for the assumption that the Prius will be sent to the junkyard after 109,000 miles, that is just an assuption. Are there ANY facts that might indicate the assumption is valid? The author of the idiotic study was quoted:
"The technology changes so quickly, that early versions wind up becoming obsolete very soon," Spinella said.
Is that his basis for assuming 109k miles? Oh, so when the next gen Prius comes out, all the current ownners will want to get 10mpg better than they do now, and so will relegate their cars to the junkyard? Rather than selling them? You don't think a used Prius, which still gets better mpg than a comparable ICE car, won't find a buyer on the used market, and instead will be junked?
Oh, and did you just totally ignore the 3rd party warranty costs of the GS450h? Think warranty company is in business to lose money?
And did you close your eyes when jcoby posted something indicating that Toyota lab tests showed no battery degradation after I think it was 100k miles?
Dewey, I think you are beyond the reach of reason on the subject of the idiotic study. I'm done discussing it with you. Maybe you need to read my prior posts more carefully. Or maybe someone else can take over trying to make you see sense.
I described the basis of this assumption in my prior posts and it has nothing to do with what you are saying nor am I going to repeat them again and again and again.
I think you are beyond the reach of reason on the subject of the idiotic study. I'm done discussing it with you. Maybe you need to read my prior posts more carefully. Or maybe someone else can take over trying to make you see sense.
Likewise, I think you haven't read my prior posts thoroughly enough. But the fact that you cant make sense of them is beyond my control. This so-called idiotic study which just so happens to be the most detailed and comprehensive study of this sort was designed to see the complete enviornmental impact of a variety of autos and not to pan the Prius. There was no agenda or anti-Toyota conspiracy to begin with.
Discussion Ended. Tedium Ended. Let's Move On.
The car will be a hit in either showroom, but it's inapproapriate for Nissan to sell such a car, when they built a whole brand to sell high-end Nissans. Kinda defeats the purpose.
I see a few reasons for Nissan to do this the way they are. This car has always been known throughout the world as the Nissan Skyline GT-R. It's not like the Nissan Fuga, where nobody has any idea what that is except for the Japanese market. Second, they are targeting it pretty much directly at the Corvette, whose owners don't seem to have a problem servicing their cars at Chevy dealers. There's not going to be so many of these things that Joe Nissan down the street will have eight of them sitting on the lot. Dealers are going to have to beg for them, and only the best ones will get one. Finally, badging it as a Nissan leaves them the opportunity to redo the car as an Infiniti (think 350Z/G35 Coupe) at a higher price, while still being able to seriously undercut what Acura and Lexus are going to charge for the NSX and GT-F (as its known this week).
While the RX 400h is the brand's best-selling hybrid model (80 percent of UK sales), let's not forget the world's most expensive production hybrid, the LS 600h (pictured) and that the Lexus GS 450h sedan sells more than the non-hybrid version in the UK.
Simple answer. Ken Livingstone can't touch them. You can drive around London all day in a GSh or LSh without paying a cent. Thats quite an incentive.
The eventual purchase of a 335i proved to be 99.9% free of any lag. The inline-6 configuration extinguishes any notion of turbo lag.
About the VW/Audi, maybe we can ask Tag about his newest runabout, the GTI. Same engine and tranny. What about the lag Tag?
I'm sitting down watching my Sox make cake of the Rockies and the game went onto commercial.
The very first commercial to show was a Lexus ad. The ad's camera angles were from up high so the car they were showing was hard to read. So I intially thought it was the new IS-F.
No sir! Lexus, in a very unorthodox(for them) style, announced the arrival of the GS460 in a very daring way.'
In the same ad, they were able to show that the car has gained considerable power and now has a VDIM-off feature, all the while the car is doing some serious d-nuts and burnouts. Very interesting coming from Lexus. This is an all-out assault on the M45, E550, A6 4.2, and of course the primo 550i.
The downside is that, IMHO, I don't think anyone is listening because the car has been an utter disappointment from the onset.
There is no doubt about it. I posted this earlier about the latest turbos from Audi, VW, BMW and Porsche. The type of lag associated with turbos of the past is indeed a thing of the past.
As far as the 2.0L FSI Turbo w/ DSG that is in the GTI... The lag is essentially non-existent, particularly when in sport mode with pedal to the metal. 2/10ths of a second dual clutch shifting and the engine is right there with it.
Anyone that suggests lag in this latest rendition proves that they haven't driven the vehicle in this configuration.
Speaking of lag... one of the worst cases of lag I've recently experienced was when I test drove the LS460 with it's eight speed automatic. No, not turbo lag... but tranny lag that was far worse than anything I'd driven with or without a turbo in recent time.
When I reviewd the LS460 I mentioned the silky smooth quiet tranny was just that... silky and smooth as butter. But, when I put my foot in to it in a hurry, the tranny paused and waited to find the proper gear... with a ridiculous lag before it found the gear it needed and then finally started to accelerate... all in a NA engine with an eight speed tranny. Shameful for such an otherwise smooth as a rose-pedal tranny.
TagMan
Certainly not on my BMW 335i as Blkhem himself can confirm.
How about your Porsche Carrera S? I've hardly heard you complain about being bogged down by turbo lag
Apparently many Porsche owners desire to spend a big chunk of extra change just to drive a turbo Carrera versus a non-turbo Carerra. They're certainly not spending that extra money in order to experience excrutiating turbo lag.
Miraculously my 300hp biturbo BMW 335i gets the same highway mileage like my old non-turbo 168hp BMW 323i.
Although city mileage is where the BMW335i falls short and unfortunately most my driving is in the city.
Politics and hybrids sales growth works as well in Canada as it does in Livingstone's London. Coincidentally Toyota is the only auto firm in Canada that supports Government policy of giving hand outs to hybrid buyers. And coincidentally every auto firm except Toyota is against such hand outs.
are you referring to the "primo 550i" that gets 16mpg in the city and is being rendered obsolete by the newer, less expensive 5-series v6 twin turbo?
There is no doubt at all that anyone that would suggest that there is any case against the BMW 335i for having a problem with Turbo lag has NOT driven one. One of the primary enthusiastic points nearly always made by reviewers was the noticeable lack of any significant turbo lag... often even described to be completely free of any turbo lag whatsoever.
I submit this:
What's worse "hesitation/delay/pause/lag" (use whatever word you like) of these three scenarios?...
1. 335i biturbo... stomping on the gas and experiencing no turbo lag? ... instant acceleration.
2. Typical old turbo... stomping on the gas and experiencing typical turbo lag? ... slight hesitation, then acceleration.
3. All-new LS460 w/ NA V8 ICE and world's first 8-speed automatic transmission... stomping on the gas and waiting and waiting for the tranny to find the right gear to shift down to ... noticeable long delay before acceleration.
TagMan
WRONG! Mr.German Car [non-permissible content removed]...This was an issue on the earlier builds,Software TSIB's have corrected. I have a 2008 LS460 and the tranny is sweet, no problems that you depict.
As you may remember, we both tested the LS around the same time as their were strong emotions running around here touting how the car is "oh so much better" than the S550. And just like you mentioned, there was a pause in full-throttle attempts that the tranny had to figure out what gear to be in.
Some have said that Lexus has fixed the problem now. I just seem to remember that when the 7-G was new, it never experienced that and is still in the top 3 of slushboxes that I indeed admire(BMW/Jag's super-smooth ZF 6-speed and of course Audi/VW DSG(S-Tronic, sorry) are the others). But that is all in the "pursuit of perfection", or maybe in the chase of being the first with frivilous features.
No, I was referring to the "primo 550i" that runs circles around everything in it's class in terms of dynamics and "driver" appreciation, although the M45 does make a strong 2nd, it just needs more juice now that just about everything is over 350hp.
BTW, do we have the city fuel econ numbers for the GS460? If not, I will find them. And when did BMW slip a "v6" in the engine bay of the 5-Series?
As to the 550i being "obsolete", I don't see it that way. If Lexus can comprehend selling a 290hp V8 GS430 next to a 306hp "V-6" GS350 for several months, then for sure the 535i with 300hp can sit next to a 550i @ 360hp. Yes the price gap is huge, but this is nothing new to BMW, as this has always been the case going all the way back to the 525/28i days v. the 540i. But some how some way, they sell these cars like nobody's business. The V8-powered 5-Series will still sell in comfortable-for-BMW quantities, and then some.
Some have said that Lexus has fixed the problem now. I just seem to remember that when the 7-G was new, it never experienced that and is still in the top 3 of slushboxes that I indeed admire(BMW/Jag's super-smooth ZF 6-speed and of course Audi/VW DSG(S-Tronic, sorry) are the others). But that is all in the "pursuit of perfection", or maybe in the chase of being the first with frivilous features.
Interesting, the new BMW 7 series that will debut in 2009 -2010 will have an 8-speed transmission. Looks like BMW will be 2nd in the chase for frivilous features
However, with the newest gem from Lexus boasting a 17/24 EPA rating, the GS460 isn't exactly what we would call "CONSERVative".
As to the next 7-Series, has the 8-speed transmission been finalized yet? I seem to remember a lot of talk of BMW going with a DSG-type transmission going forward on new cars. But things may have changed..
:lemon: Terrible remark, but I'll reply to the rest of your post.
Well, the question I posed was which situation is a better or worse one to have... zero turbo lag, slight turbo lag, or transmission lag?
The fact that the LS460's tranny lag has been corrected is proof that Lexus was aware of a legitimate problem that was serious enough to do something about. And, it answers the question that tranny lag can be far worse than turbo lag. Also, if you remember my remarks regarding the LS tranny, I also said it was silky smooth.
As far as your [non-permissible content removed] comment goes, remember that I own a Japanese car as well as a British car, and just recently traded in a Toyota that I also owned for a while. Don't forget that I have always posted some of the most favorable posts about Honda on the forums, and do so frequently because I really like the Honda company, so I don't know what your insult is based upon... even though it has no place on this forum. :confuse:
When I get the chance, I'll drive the LS460 again, to see how much of the tranny issue they resolved... hopefully it's as you represent.
In the meantime, if you haven't had the chance, I suggest you drive the 335i and see what you think of the lack of turbo lag. :shades:
TagMan
'06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG • '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet • '04 Lexus RX330
Deep Green Metallic
Sand Beige Napa Leather - Bamboo Trim
Premium Package
Cold Weather Package
Rear Climate Package
Technology Package
Multi-Contour Seats with Lumbar Support
Comfort Access
Heated Rear Seats
Running Boards
SIRIUS Satellite Radio
iPod Adapter
Power Tailgate (new for '08, not on website)
---
$66,970 (plus the pwr tailgate)
An excellent vehicle. It should be here by the middle of January, after my kids' winter break. I am so happy to finally be getting rid of the RX and having an SUV that moves. The RX330 has been fine... but the X5 will be much better.
'06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG • '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet • '04 Lexus RX330
'06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG • '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet • '04 Lexus RX330
First, of course, there is the new 3.6L DI engine that is every bit as competitive as those from Audi and other makers.
But the news is that Cadillac is also going to drop in a turbo version to bridge the gap of the standard 3.6 direct injection and the upcoming 500+ CTS-v. There were earlier reports of them droping the new 5.0L "high feature" DOHC V-8 in the engine bay as a means of having a "bridge" between the V6 and V models. But Cadillac nixed that idea as the ever tightening CAFE standards would've hampered the division already full of nothing but V-8s. This supposed turbo model will be in the neighborhood of 380-400hp, a nice figure that will be in the company of many competitors V-8 models.
In addition to what's up at Caddy, Chrysler is finally thinking of getting serious about their powertrains. Thanks to Benz, they finally had a suspension system that was class competitive. But the powertrains outside of the mighty Hemi have been lacking, to say the least.
Although away from under Daimler's complete control, they still have a roughly 20% stake in the company. Before things went south w/ Dr.Z, MB and Chrysler were partnering together to create what is known as the "Phoenix" engine, a high-tech V-6 that is supposed to bring Chrysler(and Benz) into the 300hp+ club.
With all of this said, what do most of you fellas think of this? Is it enough to make the domestics more desireable? The CTS can sell itself, but Chrysler has still much work to do and Ford hasn't even started, in fact taking a step backward in terms of taking Lincoln all FWD.
So what's it gonna be?
I had heard the 3rd row is kind of a joke, but haven't tried it out myself. What did you think or did you not get the 3rd row?
BTW I've been wondering something....when BMW has aggressive lease deals, do they also apply to custom orders?
I'm asking because lately I've been toying with the idea of getting a 7, since it is in its last year and lease deals are apt to get highly aggressive as we get into 08. Haven't test driven it, though, or experienced all the wonders of iDrive.
Yes, that's how I obtained mine, by special order. Keep in mind that BMWFS offers more a aggressive lease money factor to previous BMWFS customers.
Indeed it is. I stand by you, TG.
[non-permissible content removed] is a human (?) category quite different from that to which a German car lover belongs to, however frantic could be its love. How is it that one civilized poster can refer here to other poster with such an adjective?
I will continue refraining myself from posting, I am afraid.
Regards,
Jose
By the way, I got tired of my 328i already. I am trading it in for an loaded 2008 IS350. I found the relative bland interior/features and over hyped German driving dynamic is not for me. The IS seems to have the perfect balance of luxury and driving fun that I needed. I will have to live with a smaller back seat. Also, will definitely need a set of winter tires for the canadian winter.
Indeed it is. I stand by you, TG.
[non-permissible content removed] is a human (?) category quite different from that to which a German car lover belongs to, however frantic could be its love. How is it that one civilized poster can refer here to other poster with such an adjective?
I agree. Those who resort to name calling usually do so because their case is weak. That post should be deleted.
Ach! As a French resistant, my wife's grandfather was fired by the [non-permissible content removed] still not so many years ago.
WOW, now that's a first for the 335i. If you think that your 328i overhyped, then for sure the IS is more over-hyped than the Weapons of Mass-Destruction in Iraq that have yet to be uncovered.
I'm sorry that your fond of the car has gone sour, but mine is just really starting to take off. And I'm still looking and searching for all of the lag the TT motor offers as mine must've been massaged by the anti-lag God's at Munich.
But anyway, to each his own. I wish you well on your IS endeavors friend.
In the meantime, if you haven't had the chance, I suggest you drive the 335i and see what you think of the lack of turbo lag.
If you read my post, You will see that I have no need to drive the 335, as I never questioned it's performance regarding turbo lag. As far as the 2008 LS460, I drive it and it has no tranny hesitation.
So what's it gonna be?"
Stick a fork in Lincoln. Ford, at least, appears to have a chance.
Oh, but wait, the people who drive Lincolns are generally brain-dead (they'll be along themselves shortly), and the dealers are farther along yet. Lincoln could well have a resurgence. Look around -- no one has ever gone broke underestimating the taste of the American public.
Stand back!
I'm glad you are enjoying your LS, as you should.
TagMan
But if I were you, I just wouldn't get the 7... it's nice, but the A8, LS and XJ are all better--and less money. You could probably get a good lease on a Vanden Plas or XJR, though Audi doesn't budge much on cars like the A8.
I didn't get the third-row... it was never even under consideration, because I have only one kid living at home. But I did attempt to sit in a model that had one. It was pathetically small. My son couldn't fit, either.
This all probably means that I'll have to get a sedan as a winter car, and one that can fit our friends in comfort, at that. The 535xi, S6, M5 and S8 (as a stretch--$100K winter car???) are under consideration. What do you guys think? It won't be until late next year.
'06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG • '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet • '04 Lexus RX330
can you please attempt to be less predictable. I knew you would despise your new BMW 328 as much as you had always despised all BMWs before you even leased one.
Remember my posted warnings from Sept 2007:
POST 5910
WARNING: Dont buy a BMW 328i. You will regret it since based on your posts I dont think you will really appreciate it. Apparently you like smooth and quiet cars but you're buying a BMW because of a good lease deal. That to me makes no sense whatsover. A good lease deal is only good when its for the car you really want. IMO you would be much more happier with a competing model from Mercedes Benz or Lexus that does not emphasize performance/handling as much as a BMW.
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POST 6008
If you bought the car merely because of a lease deal and not because you desired the car more than a competing model than in that case your decision makes cents but little sense.
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The secrets of not being a sucker is the following:
Buy the car that you love and not the one that you hate unless ofcourse you are financially constrained from buying the car that you really want.
Up to now I cant stop loving my BMW 335i. Hopefully I dont love it too much or I'll end up never wanting to buy another car again.
I hope you enjoy your Lexus IS as much as I enjoy my BMW.
Good luck
Well, my preference would probably be an AWD LS460L, but they don't make one. MB and Audi don't seem aggressive on lease deals for the S550 4matic and A8. So as the sort of person who likes a bargain, I was thinking the 7 as a short term solution (lease for 3 years, use snow tires). Hadn't considered Jaguar but you're right maybe I should.
I thought the superb driving dynamics would make me forget the luxury/comfort that I enjoyed in my GS. However, I found that in my day to day commute the 328i drives no different than the IS, but the latter is a lot more luxurious and the ML stereo could not be matched by the Logic 7.
Thankfully there are plenty of BMW fans willing to takeover the great lease by BMWFS at minimal costs to me. The icing on the cake was my Lexus dealer willing to put me in an fully loaded 2008 IS350 for only $130/mth more than the 2007 BMW. I guess I should change my screen name to 2008IS350
LOL, are you serious? I knew you'll come around.
You'll enjoy the IS350 I am for sure, and oh yeah, no "lag" what-so-ever for the IS350. :P
As for the LS460 "lag", that's due to the tranny software finding the perfect gear under that specific condition in order to achieve the highest FE possible. One way to minimize this is to shift the gear from "D" to "S", under the "S" mode the tranny will operate in higher RPM thus reduce the "lag". If the LS460 has an "ETC Power" mode like the GS and IS (I am pretty sure it has) then why switching it on the "lag" will be totally gone. The down side of that is much worse FE.
For those of you who bashed on the LS460, go test drive it again but this time put the gear in "S" and switch on the "ETC Power" button. You'll feel like it's a totally different car.
Bottom line is like the 2001gs430 have said, this kind of "lag" is totally a different animal than the "turbo lag".
To 2001gs430: when you test drive the IS350, make sure you try it under ETC Power mode, it's like the car suddenly gained 30HP, amazing!