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Comments
Because you care!
Take a look at those BMW 335i CR results aren't they amazing.
Ok I am bluffing, I dont even know the ratings but based on my experiences I am confident that the CR results are great.
You and the other germancarfans have yet to answer the question I have posed twice already:
If there is a greenie bias with the 23mpg GS450h, wouldn't there also be a greenie bias for the 26mpg E320 Bluetec? And wouldn't that greenie bias be even larger for the E320BT?
I am a 44 year old youth who still does not drink any prune juice.
For those who have rich parents they probably will choose BMW and MB because they don't have to pay for it.
A prior post relating incomes with cars indicates that BMW 3 Series owners (the youngest group of BMW owners) earn their money and dont rely on handouts from their parents.
Such a silly notion of BMW owners :mad:
But since you are 25 I will forgive you.
Absolutely NOT!
How many greenie sources have you read that are endorsing Blutec diesels over hybrids?
The key selling point of the hybrid GS is its super low emissions. That is not a key selling point of the Blutec since it is primarily designed to pass emissions regulations not exceed them. The key selling point for the Blutec is its frugal fuel consumption especially during highway cruising.
Thats something good to hear that ur saying,comfort of a luxury sedan and the sportiness that you would expect from BMWbut i heard many complaining abt the harsh ride of this car. STRANGE.
Did u guys read THIS Toyota Overtakes Ford As US 2nd Biggest!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I dont understand this toyota and lexus is getting better and bigger why dont they bring a car to compete with the cars like the cayenne and X5.because they currently dont have1.
BTW you are saying that hybrids are better for the environment than modern diesels? Chalk 1 point for the hybrids!
Apples to apples comparisons please!
Have you seen the dismal ratings for the MB E350 non-diesels when compared to the stellar ratings of the Lexus RWD GS?
Ofcourse a diesel version of car that has unreliable stats will end up looking less reliable than a hybrid version of a car with great reliability stats. Dont you think?
BTW you are saying that hybrids are better for the environment than modern diesels? Chalk 1 point for the hybrids!
Enviornmental impact is defined by more than just emissions. Hybrid battery production and disposals outweighs those emissions benefits so much that a survey indicated that a Prius is worse for our planet than a Hummer.
BTW, I will use THIS as an example of what is a factor in the difference between reliability of two near indentical model cars... THE ASSEMBLY PLANT, or the assembly process itself.
Now, I do not know if there is any special difference in the assembly plant or process between the GS and the GS Hybrid, but it is conceivable that they have a different plant or team assemble the vehicle.
The Honda Civic hybrid makes a good example. That vehicle's assembly, at least initially, was (and might still be) strictly in Japan by a special assembly line team. Now THAT is a definate factor in how that car will hold up compared to a conventional Civic on a more conventional assembly line in an entirely different location, or even in a different country.
It is a factor that makes a difference... IMHO.
TagMan
Have you seen the dismal ratings for the MB E350 non-diesels when compared to the stellar ratings of the Lexus RWD GS?
Ofcourse a diesel version of car that has unreliable stats will end up looking less reliable than a hybrid version of a car with great reliability stats. Dont you think?
So, you admit that ICE Es are less reliable than ICE GSs? That reliability surveys are accurate on that score, that the survey results aren't the result of some sort of bias?
Dewey, with all the love of data around here lately, facts show that the E320 BlueTec gets 13% better combined mileage than the GS450h, while their emissions difference is only slightly more than 1%.
In addition, the E320 BlueTec does not have the GS450h hybrid's significant environmental toxicity issue... which is supposed to be one of the main points to begin with... that being, to be environmentally friendly, which the hybrids are not.
TagMan
I assumed new (0 miles on odometer) versions of each, optioned with a nav system. The below extended warranty prices are for their highest or "luxury care" level, with $0 deductible:
E320 Bluetec
5 Years / 100000 Miles $3,175
6 Years / 100000 Miles $3,343
7 Years / 100000 Miles $3,464
GS450h
5 Years / 100000 Miles $2,251
6 Years / 100000 Miles $2,340
7 Years / 100000 Miles $2,432
8 Years / 100000 Miles $2,599
8 Years / 120000 Miles $2,805
Interestingly, they don't even offer to go up to 8 years on the E320BT.
If I were the warranty company, I'd do the same thing.
Overall, the history of Lexus reliability is better than Mercedes Benz, and the E320 BlueTec had to jump through hoops and swallow fire to finally become available in California. I'd be on the cautious side also, if I were in the warranty business... after all, I'd have a responsibility to uphold, and if I were to make an error in judgement, it would be safer to be on the side of caution.
But, as enough years go by, I think we should see a little improvement in that data, but we will only know after years go by.
TagMan
Uh...not really because if the 3er driver is a 20-some-year-old college student who still lives at home and drives the car that daddy gave him then it'll be daddy's income instead of his to be counted for the overall average income.
Lexus IS to have the most under 35-year-old owners percentage wise shows that things are a changing. Like I said, this younger generation (my generation) is very different than our previous one (your generation) since we grew up under the "Japanese car invasion". We do know that MBs and BMWs are very good cars and traditional luxury but in our mind the up and comers like Lexus, Acura and Infiniti are equally as good with better prices.
Such a silly notion of BMW owners
Nope, I just graduated from the college and grad school which I spent good 6 years in. I've seen my share of students who drive a 3er given by the parents.
To think that this younger generation is lusted after BMW instead of Lexus/Infiniti/Acura is such a silly notion of the current young folks. But since you are 44 I'll forgive you.
As has been posted more than once here... someone's (hypothetical) grandparent smoked and lived to be 105.
Just because you saw at your college some 3-series handouts doesn't statistically amount to a hill of beans.
Nor can you claim to represent your generation on a large-scale basis.
Now, so you do not take this in any way incorrectly, let me clarify to you that I regard you as a VERY smart and intelligent poster overall
edit: BTW, the IS sells more WITHIN ITS OWN SALES to the younger group. The 3-series has a broader appeal, but sells more cars than the IS to the young croud overall by a country mile!
Tagman
True, but the GS450h is a newer vehicle than the E320 Bluetec (and much newer than the CDI and earlier diesels), so if I were a warranty company I'd be MORE cautious in pricing the GS450h.
Based on stats the MB E overall reliable ratings SUCKs!
The argmument you are making is flawed. You cant use one model and make a very general statement that hybrids are more reliable as you are doing right now. You cant call this a German car versus Lexus hyrbid argument until the diesel German luxury car population increases beyond one single unreliable model.
Wait until BMW introduces their diesels and then this discussion will become more interesting and ofcourse more favorable with regards to diesel reliability.
I REPEAT MB E CLASS quality SUCKS. MB even confessed that in a press conference. Using solely this model to carry out your arguments is like me arguing that Japanes car reliability sucks because of a V6 Camry or a V8 Tundra.
Your circle of acquantances with youngsters are not very convincing even for a guy my age. My nephews and nieces and many of my clients sons and daughters are about your age and let me tell you what you are saying is absolutely inconsistent with my observations of 20 Somethings.
You're an old F**T compared to my children who are among Generation Z and all they talk about in their elementary schools are BMWs and Porsches. I think this evidence is as convincing as yours. :P
The argmument you are making is flawed. You cant use one model and make a very general statement that hybrids are more reliable as you are doing right now.
Well if you want we could look at the RX400h vs your pick of diesel SUVs. Or the Camry hybrid against your pick of midsize diesels. Or the Prius against your pick of compact diesels.
Somewhere in the bottom isn't it? (I dont know since I dont have the stats but I do have good intuition)
So now what do you want to do? You want to compare the reliability of diesels from a company with the lowest CR ratings with the the hybrids from a company with very high CR ratings ?
Sounds to me as if the conclusion has already been rigged before the discussion has even begun.
As I said when BMW introduces their diesels then we can have a far more representative argument with regards to diesels versus hybrids.
So what do you think of those BMW 335i CR results? Oops I forgot you dont want to talk about them :P
Would you really? Why? It might be a recent model but... given the Lexus tremendous reliability reputation... that msut be what they are using... especially compared to the E-Class's "not-so-good" reputation.
TagMan
If I was a warranty company I would be very nervous indeed especially if Toyota/Lexus reliability continues to drop these upcoming years.
If I was a warranty company I would be very nervous indeed especially if Toyota/Lexus reliability continues to drop these upcoming years.
The LONG-TERM history is still in the mindset. But soon enough, if Toyota continues on its downward reliability spiral, everything will change accordingly. Number of sales isn't everything, as we've tried to post countless times.
TagMan
Certain germancarfans were raving about the reliability of diesels. I simply pointed out that if one buys an E320BT, one also gets "all the reliability of a German car" or "all the reliability of an MB". The point is, I or any other consumer that cares about reliability should look at the reliability of the TOTAL car, not of one piece of the car. You and tg appear to have come around now to agree with this view.
Now, in recent posts, you have admitted that CR/JDP reliability stats regarding the E are generally on the mark. The car isn't reliable as compared to the GS.
Whether adding a hybrid powertrain to the GS improves or hurts reliability is somewhat of a side issue. CR says it improves reliaiblity. You say it "logically" must hurt; but you have zero proof to back you up. You still can't seem to grasp the point that while adding additional components to a system introduces potential failure points to the system, it can also impact, potentially favorably, the failure rates of other parts of the system.
But whatever the truth re whether hybrid hurts or helps reliability, I would say that what matters in the end is the reliability of the TOTAL car. You have admitted that the E isn't reliable.
Can we move on?
Will the true luxury car, from a non-luxury marque, work for Hyundai, and not VW?
How seriously do we take this interloper? :confuse:
DrFill
If you build it, (and build it better, faster, cheaper) they will come...
'21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)
This would be expressly from Hyundai dealers. No new marque. No new way of doing business.
It will be, erroneously, compared to the LS400 of old. But the LS400 was light years ahead of the competition in build quality and luxury in 1989. Can Hyundai make that same quantum leap?
Hyundai all the way. Is that the way to go? :confuse:
DrFill
Whether the Genesis by itself makes much of an impact isn't as important as what the long term trend will be, imho.
30 years from now, some of the germancarfans and lexicans will have died of old age, and koreancarfans will be defending themselves from a bunch of chinesecarfans.
I am curious about stats, but I am not a follower of their diktats. The best consume economy? A good one is enough for me. The best greenery? Again, among the best available, but not compulsorily the best one. Reability? I do not want to own a lemon, but I do not care of my not having the most reliable car if I receive from it in exchange: (a) a powerful engine, (b) efficient brakes, (c) excellent driving dynamics and feelings and (d) a stick and three pedals.
I use to break with heel-and-toe downshift. I use to upshift from first up to third gear with double clutching. From time to time I turn off the DTC and DSC (if possible). In winter time, I look for wide empty parking lots to spin my 530d and counter steer the wheels.
My daughter has a Series 1 (bought by herself) and loves driving the same way as me. May be it is because I taught her
Those are reasons I have chosen BMW among other luxury sedan brands. Facts and emotions, not cool stats. For me, it is only a matter of driving and having fun. Just like posting in Edmunds :P .
Regards,
Jose
The Genesis has received MASSIVE positive attention for good reason, and you understand why already.
It is a VALUE beyond what has been seen in a long time, from any carmaker. Reminds me of the first Lexus LS value.
As far as selling under the Hyundai Marque, I doubt there is a big choice initially for Hyundai, so the car itself will have to overcome the name most likely, and I think it can do it. I also think it would logically sell better IF there were to be a seperate upscale marque, but I believe that is unlikely for now.
Bottom line... the Genesis will be reasonably successful, due to its very obvious value, and good looks to go along with that value.
TagMan
That is an argument that can't really be concluded.
Did you read my post about the assembly plant and assembly procedure factor that was dedicated to the Honda Civic hybrid? ONLY built in Japan by a dedicated assembly procedure. WOW! Perhaps there is a similar situation with the GS... has that been ruled out?
TagMan
No it hasn't, as I don't know how the process for the GS450h might differ from other GS versions. If the process used is "better" then that's great for customers of the GS450h, isn't it? As I've said, I think the real issue is the reliability of the TOTAL car, however arrived at. Whether the hybrid element is a detractor or a help to reliability (and you're right that it may never be settled) shouldn't actually concern the consumer; only the end reliability of the whole car is what matters, not that of individual pieces. If the whole car, in the end, is more reliable than an E320BT, then that is what should matter in the consumer's mind vis a vis reliability, when it comes time to make a choice.
Really? I hope I've made the tussle entertaining, if not exactly productive.
I liken it to a new manager trying to replace Joe Torre....
Hyundai can play the Steinbrenners in the way-off Broadway musical.
DrFill
But, if the product/price and reviews are right (a la the original LS400), they'll come on down!
There are enough buyers out there, such as myself, with no absolute brand loyalty nor "badge snobbery." The singular auto that strikes my collective fancy shall end up in my garage (well, if the Evil Wife lets me... :sick: ). This is not to say I don't have an affinity for Japanese cars, I do. Years of fun, trouble free driving have engendered that. But, I still have a soft spot in my heart for my prior ride, Chrysler 300M. That 5.5 year positive ownership experience certainly elevated Chrysler in my eye, I'd buy another one. Currently, they just have nothing that appeals to me. Sorry, 300C.
I've also had a hankerin' for a Euro ride. At this point, I'd put my money on an XK (the impractical third car? Not for New England winters...), XF, 3 series (although the RF tires trouble me) or an A/S5 (practical-ish). Or a VW? Volvo? Saab? Enjoyed our '95 900, but Saab seems to have lost some of its Saab-iness...
NEIAS next month!
'21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)
Never duplicated.
Hyundai needs to focus on it's many other issues that need tending to. Chasing Rainbows is the least of their problems.
DrFill
TagMan
Let's talk about something else.
That infamous craptastic study has been thoroughly refuted by numerous sources and the findings from that study (from a lowly marketing firm) directly contradict the findings from similar studies performed by MIT and the Argonne National Laboratory.
There is such a breathtaking amount of information out there to contradict that ridiculous study that I am thoroughly surprised that you take its conclusions seriously; I honestly though you were joking the first couple of times that you mentioned that nutty study in the recent past.
Here is a link to a reputable and PEER-REVIEWED cost analysis from the Argonne National Laboratory:
link title
This is a news story about that worthless study:
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One institution, the University of Chicago, Argonne, wrote to KATU "the study is so silly that it's not worth responding to."
One of most thoroughly flawed conclusions of the report is that the Prius will only last to 109,000 miles while the Hummer will last to 300,000 miles; this completely screws up the the life cycle calculations.
He also determined the number of miles each vehicle is expected to go in its lifetime. For the Prius, he calculated just 109,000 miles. "The technology changes so quickly, that early versions wind up becoming obsolete very soon," Spinella said.
This is a completely moronic conclusion. So Prius owners are going to set their cars on fire at 109,000 miles because Spinella does not expect them to last any longer - even though the battery is warrantied for at least 8 years or 100,000 miles; Prius batteries are supposedly warrantied for 10 years or 150,000 miles in California - 41,000 miles more than what Spinella estimated.
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Toyota, the manufacturer of the Prius, expects the Prius battery to last much longer than what Spinella foolishly estimates:
The Prius battery (and the battery-power management system) has been designed to maximize battery life. In part this is done by keeping the battery at an optimum charge level - never fully draining it and never fully recharging it. As a result, the Prius battery leads a pretty easy life. We have lab data showing the equivalent of 180,000 miles with no deterioration and expect it to last the life of the vehicle. We also expect battery technology to continue to improve: the second-generation model battery is 15% smaller, 25% lighter, and has 35% more specific power than the first. This is true of price as well. Between the 2003 and 2004 models, service battery costs came down 36% and we expect them to continue to drop so that by the time replacements may be needed it won't be a much of an issue. Since the car went on sale in 2000, Toyota has not replaced a single battery for wear and tear.
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Some have made much ado about the nickel used in the batteries and even erroneously assumed that the batteries will not be recycled at the end of their useful lifetimes. The following should shed some light:
But it isn't a Toyota factory at all. The automaker has, in fact, only been purchasing significant amounts of nickel from the Sudbury , Ontario , Inco mine for its batteries in recent years, while the environmental disaster the headline is referring to largely occurred more than thirty years ago.
And that ore is at the core of a semi-urban legend that leads to dumb headlines like "HUMMER Greener than Prius," and others we've seen recently.
Toyota says that nickel has been mined from in Sudbury since the 1800s, and that "the large majority of the environmental damage from nickel mining in and around Sudbury was caused by mining practices that were abandoned decades ago." Out of the Inco mine's 174,800-ton output in 2004, Toyota purchased 1000 tons, just over a half-percent of its output. The plant's emissions of sulfur dioxide are down 90 percent from 1970 levels, and it's targeting a 97-percent reduction in those emissions by 2015, according to Toyota.
Of course, metal-hydride hybrid batteries aren't the only use for nickel. One widespread use of nickel is for the chrome (chromium-nickel) plating that's widely used in trim and wheels for luxury vehicles. And according to the Nickel Institute, which represents trade groups, manufacturers, and nickel producers, about two-thirds of all nickel mined goes toward stainless steel, which is of course widely used in vehicles - exhaust systems, for instance. Another significant portion goes toward engine alloys - pistons, rings, liners and the like; in general, the larger the engine, the more nickel it's likely to have.
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There are clear financial incentives for consumers and dealers to recycle the battery:
Toyota has a comprehensive battery recycling program in place and has been recycling nickel-metal hydride batteries since the RAV4 Electric Vehicle was introduced in 1998. Every part of the battery, from the precious metals to the plastic, plates, steel case and the wiring, is recycled. To ensure that batteries come back to Toyota, each battery has a phone number on it to call for recycling information and dealers are paid a $200 "bounty" for each battery.
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Here is yet another long refutation of that study:
link title
I could provide many more links to discredit that study, but there is no need to because it should be obvious by now that the study and its conclusions are fundamentally flawed.
TagMan
Like I said, I find the front end of the LF-A unattractive. And if the spyshots are any indication, it will have a very derivative sports car shape. At least Audi went with a different route for the R8. It worked. The car draws a ton of attention on the road; I've seen two, and it is incredibly beautiful. I'm too late to get on the list, though... :sick:
'06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG • '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet • '04 Lexus RX330
'06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG • '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet • '04 Lexus RX330
Sounds like some of the folks here. "Don't let the facts get in the way of my preconceived notions that diesel offers better mpg and better performance and is more environmentally friendly than gas hybrid."
Honoring the Prius is one thing, but honoring hybrid technology as a whole due to that single car's success is another.
Same is true for the diesel situation. Let us not forget that after all the posts are said and done, that the The Mercedes-Benz E320 BLUETEC sedan was the one vehicle that rose above all others and was selected from an entry list of 14 contenders nominated by World Car jurors from 22 different countries!... and was awarded the 2007 World Green Car of The Year!
So, please let's not forget to give credit where it is also due.
This is not a war between only two technologies, named hybrid and diesel. There are other significant alternatives and combinations of technologies that will reveal themselves very soon. And my guess is that the typical hybrid, such as a Prius, and the typical new clean diesels, such as an E320 BlueTec will NOT... in the not-too-distant-future be the alternatives that will get all the raves.
One other point I would like to make is that as LUXURY cars go, we will have to weigh the current day champions in that perspective soon. As we start to see genuine LUXURY entries in the hybrid and diesel and other alternative categories, we will have some interesting comparisions to make. The LS600hL entry has been a mixed bag, due to a fuel economy rating that is not what many had hoped for or even expected, not to say that it isn't an acheivement... just nothing profound from a large luxury car... at least not yet.
Performance may not be the big factor it once was as fuel prices increase. Luxury cars will likely not need massive horsepower ratings, but will instead need reasonably good performance coupled with very-important high fuel economy ratings.
The Prius is NO luxury vehicle, but does a great job of representing hybrid technology in a small car that is a couple of notches above an econobox.
I am anxious to see the luxury market respond to this challenge over the years to come. Instead of true luxury cars getting mileage in the typical teens or low twenties, the challenge will be for ratings that are at least in the mid-upper twenties to well into the thirties and beyond.
IMHO, luxury vehicles that retain great driving dynamics, but not just straight-line power, and that retain smoothness and quietness and over-the-top interior features and beautiful exterior appearances, and get never-before-seen fuel economy ratings are the future of luxury cars.
TagMan
There should be little doubt. The R8 is a significant achievement... impressive, of course.
TagMan
All we have to do is wait for a BMW diesel hybrid or HCCI hybrid.
BTW the "great driving dynamics" you are after has very little to do with the powertrain, and more to do with who made the car. Hybrid may add 200-300 lbs, but I wouldn't say this is enough by itself to kill "driving dynamics"; moreover, the weight will be trimmed considerably by lithium-ion. And it isn't a 100% negative from a dynamics/handling perspective, as it gives the engineers an opportunity to obtain optimum front/rear weight distribution.