Luxury Lounge

louiswei

Totally agree.

For a moment let's assume Toyota quality has been dropping lately (Which I think it's true but not in an alarming rate like domestic in the 80s and 90s), CR still recommended 4 Toyotas out of the possible 10. That stats alone tells the whole story about the legendary "Toyota Quality".

drfill

They still have the majority lead in most quality checks.

I am, personally, against the volume push by Toyota. They are breaking a few eggs to make this omelette.

But if the problems are based off revolutionary designs of the Camry V8 and Tundra V8 4WD, they can have a bad year.

It will be interesting to see the launch of next year's Corolla, to see how Toyota handles it.

Nothing to worry about, but Toyota needs to relax, and take a breath. Sometimes less is more.

DrFill

louiswei

Flame suit on: The following post is not meant to attack Japanese as a race or country but simply re-visiting history.

I just hope Toyota won't get too full of themselves once become number and historically speaking Japanese has a tendency of doing so. Want proofs? How about WWII.

tagman

CR still recommended 4 Toyotas out of the possible 10. That stats alone tells the whole story about the legendary "Toyota Quality".

Obviously the point is that it DOESN'T tell the WHOLE story!

TM

drfill

Well if quality was not good, overall, those vehicles wouldn't qualify as the Top 10 for 2007.

Highlander came out 3 months later. Where is the quality dip with Highlander? They apparently can condemn a vehicle after 6 months, but not after 3?

DrFill

tagman

Go figure.
TM

blckislandguy

Let me add a qualitative comment to these data. The buyers of the first 7 brands (median age over 50) when driving all look very, very uptight to this 63 year guy. They are worried, pretentious and not having any fun. Mercedes drivers especially. The typical S Class guy when driving gives off an affect that is unmistakable. (Maybe he is worried about making his lease payment?). Contrast this to a guy in a 3 Series or even a guy in a Toyota Tundra. These guys are having fun!

syswei

Let me add a qualitative comment to these data. The buyers of the first 7 brands (median age over 50) when driving all look very, very uptight to this 63 year guy. They are worried, pretentious and not having any fun. Mercedes drivers especially. The typical S Class guy when driving gives off an affect that is unmistakable. (Maybe he is worried about making his lease payment?). Contrast this to a guy in a 3 Series or even a guy in a Toyota Tundra. These guys are having fun!

Interesting and amusing observation. I'd say, maybe the S Class driver is worried about how he looks to others when driving?

syswei

OK finally I've found some data on 0-30 times. Certainly these challenge the notion that the E320 Bluetec is faster off the line:

E320 Bluetec 0-30: 3.2 sec

GS450h: 2.5 sec

Source...everybody's favorite publication: CR!

bristol2

That's hilarious.

There's a 'gentleman' in my neighborhood who owns an S550. He cleans it at least once a week and is the most miserable fellow I know. If you were an alien watching him, you would think he was a servant to the car, not the other way round.

cdnpinhead

is discouraged, let me add the following from another thread, regarding CR reliability data:

". . .the Prius was rated #1 in reliability. . ."

Oh, ye of little faith.

You have to remember that a hybrid is a "lifestyle statement" and that CR is pimping big time for those who will make one.

Their highly-regarded (by the brain-dead) reliability studies come from a self-selected cohort. The self-righteous among them who have had trouble with their hybrid vehicles would rather spend time with Rush Limbaugh (in person) than report trouble. They're silent, and CR continues to pimp the green agenda. Oh boy.

Calming down a bit, it's important to remember that the CR reliability stuff comes from only those who choose to respond to a tedious survey form that takes quite awhile to complete. Unless you have a message to send, I'm guessing you're going to blow it off.

Go figure.

The point is that much of this data (CR & others) is based on flawed methodology. It's anecdotal or otherwise bogus. What we'd all like to see is real (as in blind) data that tells us what breaks & how often. I'm betting that the manufacturers have it & that they'd prefer being drawn & quartered to sharing it.

So, let's all argue about the crap that's available.

Oh boy.

tagman

So refreshing!
TM

syswei

What we'd all like to see is real (as in blind) data that tells us what breaks & how often.

Read this post

tagman

CR rates coffee makers, and yet they get credit for their opinions of cars. If anyone hasn't noticed, CR's opinions of MANY consumer products are ludicrous. I recall years ago when I read some of their material just how far off they can be! They send me surveys frequently, and I throw them away and delete them from my email.

Car & Driver, Motor Trend, Road and Track, and the others should start evaluating coffee makers, and then maybe folks would take their car opinions more seriously. After all, many of CR's top car picks are not much more than appliances anyway!

That seems to be the winning formula... rating appliances!

TagMan

syswei

Their highly-regarded (by the brain-dead) reliability studies come from a self-selected cohort. The self-righteous among them who have had trouble with their hybrid vehicles would rather spend time with Rush Limbaugh (in person) than report trouble. They're silent, and CR continues to pimp the green agenda.

So, I guess the theory would be that buyers of high-MPG cars feel "self righteous" about their purchase, and therefore under-report any problems they have? OK, let's assume that's true. It would mean that the buyer of say, a E320 Bluetec, which gets 26mpg, under-reports his car problems by more than the buyer of say, a GS450h, which only gets 23mpg. More mpg = more under-reporting of problems, right?

Now, let's take a look at CR's reliability stats for these cars. 2005 E320 Bluetec: worse than average "used car verdict", and 4 full-black (much worse than average) problem areas. 2006 E320 Bluetec: average "used car verdict", and 2 full-black (much worse than average) problem areas. 2007 GS450h: much better than average "used car verdict" and 0 half-black or full-black problem areas. (Other years not available due to insufficient data.)

But gee, the Bluetec buyers must be under-stating problems more than ghe GS450h buyers, since the Bluetec buyers are getting better mpg. So, even though CR survey data already show that the GS450h is more reliable than the E320 Bluetec, the REAL numbers must show an even more dramatic difference, right? The survey says the GS450h is much more reliable, but the reality must be that it is astoundingly more reliable?

it's important to remember that the CR reliability stuff comes from only those who choose to respond to a tedious survey form that takes quite awhile to complete.

Is there any reason to suspect that MB and Lexus buyers react differently to this tedious survey?

blckislandguy

Speaking of S Class people, I went to a Catholic prep school about a thousand years ago which had about 6 sections per class. The sections were lettered A through G or so and students were assigned to a specific section based upon test scores on the entrance exam. The top students were in the A and B sections and then it went downhill.

Recently a friend who had been in one of the lower sections called me and told me that he found it highly amusing that Mercedes had named models after the lower sections, e.g, the E Class, but nothing for the A section people. He added that based on what he saw the guys in the lower sections disproportionately drove MBs vs. the brains in the A Sections who probably didn't make as much money!

tagman

Resorting to "twisted logic"!... Just to make a point.

TagMan

syswei

There was once a WSJ article, very long ago, perhaps 10 years ago, which stated that the average owner of midrange MB's and other similar cars basically was a "poser"....someone who had to stretch on average to afford the car. I think they stated the average income of an E buyer was only something like 50k or 70k.

I can tell you that when I bought my first car, a 1992 Toyota, I sort of looked down on people who bought BMWs. I thought a Toyota was good enough for anyone, and that people who bought higher end were all insecure.

Well, either I'm insecure now myself, or I was wrong originally. I know that if my next car is an S, some people will assume I'm insecure.

syswei

If anything was "twisted" it was some of the thinking in the original post. The notion that, just because a survey is tedious to complete, it completely invalidates the results. Gee, a German car owner who completes a tedious survey is be somehow different from a Lexus owner who completes a tedious survey? The German survey-responder for some reason wants to over-report car problems, but the Lexus survey-responder wants to under-report them? Tell me that isn't a twisted rationalization.

blckislandguy

Banks and lending institutions have worked out in geat detail how much house a family can afford. They often express it in terms of a multiple of their annual income. I wonder if you can do that with high end cars. Lets disregard leases (altough probably most high end cars are leased) because often the business or professional practice pays the lease, and focus on actual purchase prices by the consumers. Further, lets look at total spending on car purchases, not just one car, by the family or individual. That way, we cover ourselve if the family decides to drive rotted out 10 year old cars and have one new high end car.

So, how much family income would it take to have say 100K worth of rolling stock in the garage? How much to support say 150K? For a single professional paying the costs himself, not through a business, how much W2 income to support say a new 911 and a new Tundra (Dr Fill, are you here?)?

tagman

I was kidding ... to a point. None of it is "scientifically" or "emperically" accurate anyway.

It's ALL giving MUCH to much credit to the info. I'm NOT saying it's meaningless... just not gospel... not even CLOSE!!

I'm " mobile" right now... I'll explain more later from my office.

TagMan

syswei

I found some data here relating to "fun cars" and median income. The numbers are higher than I expected, but possibly some of that would be due to the fact that these are "fun cars", often not the family's first car:

Ford Mustang $66,000
Chrysler Sebring $76,000
BMW 3 Series $173,000
Mazda Miata $93,000
Mitsubishi Eclipse $67,000
Volkswagen Cabrio $77,000
BMW Z3 $123,000
Chevy Corvette $124,000
Lexus SC 430 $260,000
Porsche Boxster $196,000
Mercedes SLK $143,000
Audi TT $139,000

cdnpinhead

"The notion that, just because a survey is tedious to complete, it completely invalidates the results."

I was attempting (apparently poorly) to make two points:

1) The Prius, in particular, is the flagship for the green movement, & the greenies are in no hurry to put it in a bad light.

2) Unless statistical data comes from a carefully-selected population (one that has no axe to grind), the data is likely to be flawed.

My opinion is that people who are extremely proud of their cars (for whatever reason) & those who are particularly upset with them respond to these types of surveys & they may or may not be telling the truth. The vast majority of people who simply enjoy their cars & can't be troubled with the whole exercise are left out, by their own choice.

I don't recall using the phrase "completely invalidates," but my memory isn't what it used to be.

dewey

Syswei,

interesting statistics.

Just out of curiosity what is the latest CR reliability ratings for the BMW335i?

drfill

Yeah! It's been out all of 2 months. It might be time for BMW to rebuild the thing.

And get it right this time! Slackers.

DrFill

tagman

The Prius, in particular, is the flagship for the green movement, & the greenies are in no hurry to put it in a bad light.

The high level of "greenie" enthusiasm rubbing off on a survey? how could that be?

TagMan

dewey

Hey Doc,

you know more than I do since I dont subscribe to CR but wouldn't the 07 CR results reflect models that were introduced during 06. :confuse:

dewey

What is most fascinating is not only the super high CR results from the Prius but also from the hybrid Lexus GS.

How on earth can a hybrid Lexus GS be more reliable than a GS? Does an additional electrical motor and added complexity make a car more reliable?

NONSENSE!!!

This is proof that greenie biases are definitely reflected in CR results.

Cdnpinhead you had pointed out something that I failed to point out with a thousand posts. Thanks for articulating your views so nicely.

drfill

Actually I DON'T subscribe to ANY of the mags, but I'm going by the Inside Line article, which pictured the redesigned 07 Tundra, as the vehicle in question.

Why would the last year of a generation suffer the worst quality in Tundra history?

I attribute it to a low sample of the revolutionary '07.

DrFill

dewey

My bad,

I thought your other post was referrig to the 07 BMW 335i not the Tundra.

drfill

It was, actually, referring to both.

DrFill

tagman

Some of this "data" is, as Dewey said "interesting"... particularly that last post that syswei gave us. Interesting is all it SHOULD be. To be relied upon too heavily would be giving too much credit to some of the data's accuracy.

Not all data is created equally... or exptrapolated equally!

That's an important thing to understand, IMO.

What do I think is accurate about CR's reliability list?... Well, I think it is safe to say that a Honda Accord is more reliable than a Range Rover.

Seriously... when I read posts that give credit to one car or another that are only one or two positions different than one another in those lists... there is NO WAY that those small incremental differences are accurate representations. But it does mean that, if broken down into a general curve, that those towards the top of the list are likely to be more reliable than those towards the bottom. There's really not much more detail that can truthfully be applied.

When it comes to age... that's a darned accurate figure (except for women over 35... they'll seldom tell the truth... ) unless you are looking at their driver's license. But income figures can be accurate to the point of a very close "range", because it often varies with many people from one year to the next. But it is fairly accurate data.

The only reasonably accurate reliability tests that could be conducted would be to determine from computer entries at the dealerships, when every car was serviced and what the service entailed. But, some "issues" aren't really issues at all.

The owner of a Range Rover is likely more fussy about every little thing than the owner of a Tacoma. He/she might bring that type of vehicle in for the slightest little thing more often than the owner of a piece of basic transportation. Does anyone know for a fact if that is possibly true, and if it is, to what extent? Or is it not true? Or is the opposite true?

Too many unknowns for me. But I do agree with the general trend and concensus. I have little doubts about them, and I don't want to appear to be in some sort of denial here. I accept the general nature of the data, and always have. The specifics of it, however, I question.

And, as I posted in the past, I don't rely on the data to make my purchases anyway. I look at the "FUN" factor sometimes.

Syswei, is there a statistic that tells us who has the most "fun" with their cars? And if so, what exactly would it mean by 'fun" anyway? Taking it on family vacations? Room to fool around in the back seat? Drives like a race car? Attracts attention and gets compliments? :confuse:

Go "figure".

TagMan

dewey

You know DrFill your Tundra Defence Strategy is starting to lose steam.

CR ratings confirms this and incentives are the only way that this beastly vehicle will be pushed out of Toyota lots.

Why dont you call a spade a spade and acknowledge the cold brutal truth about the Tundra which is best characterized by the following picture.

:lemon:

drfill

That would make G.W. blush, but given it has the best ratings, the best crash tests (iihs), the best incentives, multiple comparison victories, the ONLY market share gain, and the best previous quality, and best previous crash tests, and a history of actually REACHING it's goals, and not losing sales with a new truck, I really don't see the point.

When you drive one, you'll understand. We've only just begun to fight.

What would happen if the sky fell everytime the domestics had a bad article, or lost share, or missed an opportunity? Would you like that rap sheet?

DrFill

dewey

Syswei,

Check Mate!

Those CR hybrid ratings are BUNK!

Please refer to my post regarding the Lexus hyrbrid GS.

dewey

When you drive one, you'll understand. We've only just begun to fight

I cant even begin this fight.
I have no intention whatsoever in terms of test driving a pick-up let alone buying one.

Good thing though or this battle could have ended up becoming a never-ending quagmire.

drfill

Fair enough.

Questioning the Tundra is a simple enough mistake. You are forgiven. :P

DrFill

tagman

Questioning the Tundra is a simple enough mistake.

You've always told us that your perspective is that the bottom line is units sold, right Doc? Here's a question...

Will the Tundra ever outsell the Ford F-150 or the Chevy Silverado?

Here's the answer...

NO.

TagMan

dewey

VW is planning to put some serious heat on Toyota.

WOLFSBURG, Germany -- Volkswagen AG's chief executive plans to narrow the global sales gap that separates it from Japan's Toyota Motor Corp. by ramping up competition in the U.S., partly by pricing its vehicles more aggressively there and by curbing costly frills many Americans don't want.

By tailoring its cars more to U.S. tastes, he said, it could offer future versions of its Jetta and Passat below what they sell for now. The Jetta starts at about $17,000 in the U.S., while the Passat starts for roughly $23,900. Toyota's Corolla is priced about $15,200, while the larger Camry starts at about $20,000.

Between now and 2010, Volkswagen plans to add 12 models to its global lineup. The company is keen on launching more vehicles in new segments, such as a new compact sport-utility vehicle called the Tiguan. Mr. Winterkorn said much of the sales growth at Toyota, which sold 8.5 million vehicles last year, has come from its expansion into nontraditional segments, such as SUVs, pickup trucks and multipurpose vehicles, which are similar to minivans.

"We of course hope to take [customers] from the Japanese and surely the Americans" in the U.S. market, Mr. Winterkorn said.

link title

drfill

The answer is......possibly.

It may take 10-15 years, but Tundra will rise up to 4-500k units, while the others continue to lose share.

I think if you look at the landscape in 2020, you'll see Tundra in a close fight with GM and Ford. And will be selling Dually HDs in 3 years. :shades:

GMC won't be around either. It will lose by attriction.

Granted, the US truck market will be the most difficult of the three markets Toyota hopes to rule (luxury, car, and truck).

But, if they're serious, I'm not betting against them.

Are you? :confuse:

DrFill

bristol2

But, if they're serious, I'm not betting against them.

In that product market I would bet against them. It would require a vehicle so revolutionary in that segment to upstage Chevy, Ford and even Dodge and I just don't see that segment as being driven by a whole lot of innovation.

If Toyota (or any manufacturer) can conquer the low mileage inherent in running a 2 ton brick then we might see such a change.

Agree that this Tundra is not Toyota's last effort but it is still hundreds of thousands of customers behind the big 3. That is a lot of ground to make up in 10, 15 or 20 years.

tagman

I don't think the Toyota Tundra will EVER become the number one selling full-sized pickup in the United States. Does that answer your question?

TagMan

drfill

Tag, try to control your fear.

It's ok. Rest now. It'll be alright.

DrFill

tagman

LOL. Thanks's Doc. I always appreciate a good laugh. With you here we can be sure the forum won't get too serious.

TagMan

tagman

Unless this was posted and I missed it (due to old age - LOL), I thought perhaps there were some here who were trying to persuade us that Lexus buyers are young. But this says otherwise.

This quote from Jim Farley:

“The ES 350’s average age is 61, and their number-one occupation is retired,” says Jim Farley who recently dropped his position at Lexus to go work for Ford as vice president of marketing and communications.

“Forty percent of all our customers are over 60,” Farley says.

Here's the link:

link title

TagMan

drfill

But, as was posted earlier, Lexus buyers are only 3 years older than BMW's, and Toyota's buyer was the same as age as Honda's. :shades:

DrFill

dewey

Doc,

it seems that you and Jim Farley have a communications problem.

You better inform him now with those stats you mentioned above.

Oops its too late--Jim Farley's office at Lexus is empty with all his boxes and personal belongings packed and ready to go to Ford's head office at Dearborn Michigan :P

drfill

If you can't beat 'em, buy 'em.

You sound worried.

DrFill

louiswei

I thought this is old news. No?

Let me refresh your memory (syswei, hope you don't mind that I use the stats you've posted earlier), I thought Porsche owners were supposed to be young and don't have memory losing problems :

From JD Power, % buyers 16-35/36-55/56+ years old:

Lexus IS - 44/42/14
BMW 3 - 35/46/20
Acura TL - 36/44/20
Infiniti G - 35/50/15

Lexus GS - 22/50/28
BMW 5 - 8/66/26
Acura RL - 8/43/49
Infiniti M - 13/53/34

(Data for 2007 models, except 2008 for BMW 5 Series)

Car buyers' median age by brand:
Division Median age
Rolls-Royce 62.9
Lincoln 62.8
Buick 60.8
Mercedes 58.7
Chrysler 56.4
Mercury 55.1
Cadillac 53.4
Jaguar 49.8
Lexus 49.4
BMW 46.1
Ferrari 45.6
Hummer 45.6
Acura 45.3
GMC 44.4
Saab 44.4
Pontiac 43.4
Porsche 43.4
Dodge 42.9
Chevrolet 42.7
Honda 41.9
Toyota 41.9
Infiniti 41.6
Mitsubishi 41.3
Volvo 40.3
Ford 39.7
Land Rover 38.9
VW 38.7
Jeep 37.6
Nissan 35.1
Mazda 34.6
Suzuki 33.2
Isuzu 32.7
Subaru 31.7
Saturn 30.9
Hyundai 29.8
Kia 28.1

Moving on? No?

drfill

From JD Power, % buyers 16-35/36-55/56+ years old:

Lexus IS - 44/42/14
BMW 3 - 35/46/20
Acura TL - 36/44/20
Infiniti G - 35/50/15

Lexus GS - 22/50/28
BMW 5 - 8/66/26
Acura RL - 8/43/49
Infiniti M - 13/53/34

More good news, as the IS and GS brings in the new blood, with their edgy look. The youngsters are quite happy with a Lexus!

Good job, Lou. :shades:

DrFill