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Comments
Or worse, it's reliability? :surprise:
I'd like to know how you can make a reliability call on any vehicle that's been out for 6 months (Tundra)?
Fortunately, the Tundra is the best pick-up on Earth, according to the same magazine.
And 4 of their Top 10 Cars of 2007 are Toyotas.
You have to take the great with the not-exactly-wonderful.
DrFill
Are sport car buyers as socially conscious as luxury car buyers. Enthusiasts IMO are more egalitarian than luxury buyers but please dont ask me for statistics to prove my point.
Let's just say that Toyota overall as an automaker did well according to CR. But according to the Toyota that you and I know this Toyota of 07 just aint the same like the Toyota of 06 and other yesteryears.
I think that just as happy as a 'z' driver would be expected to be in a Nissan dealership, Nissan expects a Skyline driver to be happy with it.
None of this means I understand Nissan's thinking on a $70k supercar that looks like it should be in 'Too Fast Too Furious'.
As I recall, the 240Z engines ran forever. Afterall, they looked just like a Chevvy stovebolt six. But Datsun never could get the 260Z to run anywhere near as well because of the smog accessories they were sticking on.
I am 44 and I already feel too old for a car like the GT-R.
With my history of bumping into patrol cops the last thing I need is a yellow GT-R that screams for unwanted attention.
In this day and age I like to keep a low profile . I do not need a chick magnet car since the primary beneficiary of such a car will be my son on his future 16th birthday when he asks to borrow my keys.
Yes that is CORRECT! BMW 3 , 5 and 7 Series had above average reliability according to CR. Once upon a time not too long ago I was scorned at and ridiculed in some Edmunds forums when I had mentioned that one of the primary reasons I bought a BMW was because of its great reliabilty.
BMW Oh What a Feeling! Oops wasn't that a Toyota slogan
Consider my CR Subscription confirmed as of today.
Ok, ok I am just kidding. :shades:
How could a mid-sized SUV get such bad mileage on the highway? Even the Cayenne V6 gets only 14/20. Pathetic!
It's certainly not my main criterion in buying a car, but when the X5 drives better, looks better, has better features and costs less, why not?
'06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG • '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet • '04 Lexus RX330
Of course, this won't happen to any of us, but it happens to most people...
In fact, it is happening to human population. We have not yet reached our ceiling... but as the resources grow, the population increases as well. It may take thousands of years, but the downfall will happen...
'06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG • '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet • '04 Lexus RX330
Exactly correct about the 260Z, the first real victim of the early emission system... in spite of its carb changes. There is also a 1974 1/2 260Z, when they started to transition the car into the 280Z for the following year. In essence the 260 only ran for one model year and it was split into two halfs. The 280Z was much improved with its fuel injection and emission system improvements over the previous 260Z.
Nice to remember all that stuff.
TagMan
You can't. They didn't, did they? Because CR specifically stated that they will no longer "predict" reliability on new Toyota models until they are back to their rock-solid standard.
I know this sounds like more of the same, but I have been surprised at Toyota's relative lack of quality lately. For instance, read the latest Insideline article on the long-term Camry:
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/LongTerm/articleId=117036/pageNumber- =2
Let's just say I was a little surprised. Although Toyotas are mechanically flawless, they are not built as well as they could be. I can attest to that with my wife's RX330. Things are coming apart. I don't feel like divulging into it right now- maybe later.
'06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG • '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet • '04 Lexus RX330
Second, Toyota is facing what many manufacturing companies face when sales rise at a fast pace. Their assembly lines and processes are now facing higher volumes which is causing defect rates to climb. They can work their way out of this situation but it shows that even a great company like Toyota is nowhere near perfect.
Well, I thought the point of the original posts was that car companies worry about the demographics of their customer base because, if the average age is too old, the company might be in a spot of trouble when their customers die of old age. MB buyers may be richer on average than Lexus buyers, but that's beside the point...they are older too. If they are older they'll die sooner of old age than Lexus buyers.
In other words, MB buyers may be rich old geezers, but they're still old geezers.
Here is CR's ranking of luxury cars for reliability (most reliable at the top):
Lexus GS450h (Hybrid)*
Infiniti M35 (RWD)
Infiniti M35 (AWD)
Infiniti M45
Acura RL
Lexus LS*
Lincoln Town Car
Lexus GS (6-cyl, RWD)
Audi A6 (V6)
Lexus GS (V8)*
Jaguar S-Type*
BMW 7 Series
BMW 5 Series (6-cyl., RWD)
Cadillac STS (V6, RWD)
BMW 5 Series (V8)
Cadillac DTS
Lexus GS (6-cyl, AWD)
Mercedes-Benz E-Class (V6, RWD)
Cadillac STS (V6, AWD)*
Mercedes-Benz S-Class (V8, RWD)*
Mercedes-Benz E-Class (V8)
BMW 5 Series (6-cyl., AWD)
Mercedes-Benz E-Class (V6, AWD)
Audi A8*
Mercedes-Benz CLS* (-88%)
Cadillac STS (V8)* (-90%)
These charts help you compare our Predicted Reliability Ratings for 2008 models within the same category. To create them, we calculate an overall reliability score for each of the three newest model years (2005, 2006, and 2007) provided the vehicle hasn't changed significantly in that time. Three-year data are a good predictor since most new models for this year are essentially the same as earlier models. Extra weight is given to some components, including the engine (major problems), cooling, transmission (major problems), and drive system....
In cases where a model was new or redesigned last year, or where we simply lack data for more years, we might rely on one model year's data...
Most brand-new models don't appear here because they have yet to establish a track record. Models redesigned for 2008 are shown with (2007) in their model name. In rare instances, we make a prediction for a new or redesigned model if the manufacturer's or model's history is typically outstanding.
(these are CR's categories)
upscale cars:
Acura TSX
Lexus IS (RWD)
Volvo S60 (FWD)
Acura TL
Lexus IS (AWD)
Infiniti G35 Sedan (RWD)
BMW 328i Sedan (RWD)
Lincoln MKZ (FWD)
Infiniti G35 Sedan (AWD)
Volvo S60 (AWD)
Nissan Maxima
Saab 9-5
Audi A4 (V6)
Lincoln MKZ (AWD)*
BMW 335i Sedan (turbo)*
Lexus ES*
BMW 328i Sedan (AWD)
Audi A4 (4-cyl.)
Mercedes-Benz C-Class (V6 RWD, 2007)
Cadillac CTS (V6, 2007)
Saab 9-3
Mercedes-Benz C-Class (V6 AWD, 2007)
midsize SUVS:
Toyota Highlander (2007)
Honda Pilot
Toyota 4Runner
Infiniti FX35
Lexus RX
Acura MDX*
Subaru B9 Tribeca
Mitsubishi Endeavor
Lexus GX
Acura RDX*
Ford Edge*
Lincoln MKX*
Nissan Murano
Audi Q7 (V6)*
Ford Freestyle/Taurus X
Porsche Cayenne
BMW X5 (6-cyl.)*
Chevrolet TrailBlazer (6-cyl.)
GMC Envoy (6-cyl.)
Nissan Pathfinder
Jeep Commander (V6)*
BMW X3
Ford Explorer (V6)
Mercury Mountaineer (V6)
Volvo XC90 (6-cyl.)
Jeep Commander (V8)
Mazda CX-9*
Chevrolet TrailBlazer (V8)
GMC Envoy (V8)
Volvo XC90 (V8)
Chrysler Pacifica
Cadillac SRX (V6)
Ford Explorer (V8)
Mercury Mountaineer (V8)
Jeep Grand Cherokee (V6)
Volkswagen Touareg
Mercedes-Benz M-Class (V6)
Jeep Grand Cherokee (V8)
Mazda CX-7*
Hummer H3
Audi Q7 (V8)*
Mercedes-Benz R-Class (V6)*
Cadillac SRX (V8)* (-99%)
Mercedes-Benz M-Class (V8)* (-102%)
Land Rover LR3 (V8) (-129%)
Land Rover Range Rover Sport* (-136%)
Land Rover Range Rover* (-195%)
large SUVs:
Toyota Land Cruiser (2007)*
Lexus LX (2007)
Lincoln Navigator*
Ford Expedition EL (4WD)*
Chrysler Aspen*
Ford Expedition (2WD)*
Toyota Sequoia (2007)
GMC Acadia*
Saturn Outlook*
Ford Expedition (4WD)*
Dodge Durango
GMC Yukon XL 1500*
Chevrolet Suburban 1500*
Chevrolet Tahoe*
GMC Yukon*
Infiniti QX56
Nissan Armada (4WD)
Mercedes-Benz GL-Class (V8)*
Cadillac Escalade* (-93%)
Hummer H2* (-101%)
Chevrolet Suburban 2500* (-150%)
GMC Yukon XL 2500* (-150%)
The 2008 Mercedes-Benz E320 Bluetec sedan will be offered in limited numbers in two-year/24,000-mile leases, the German automaker said. The program uses a short timetable so that these cars will be coming off lease as the next-generation of Mercedes diesels that meet federal regulations as well as those of every state arrive.
"This is a bridge vehicle," a Mercedes spokeswoman said.
Anyone know what they are talking about? The article implies that CA (and perhaps the other 4 states??) might not get any other MB diesel models for another 2 years. Is that right, and if so, why would that be? Are even tougher regs going into effect in 2010, requiring another level of technology?
I cancelled my subscription long before they preferred McDonalds coffee over Starbucks! Long before they messed up all child seat studies!
When I wake up... Surely I won't see long never-ending lists from CR on the forum!
TagMan
DrFill
TagMan
I guess anything that makes German brands look bad qualifies as a nightmare?
Go ahead, close your eyes, stick your head in the sand, ignore the evidence!
http://www.gasgoo.com/autobiz/3128/Lexus-LF-A-to-be-sold-at-264-700-in-China.htm- l
DrFill
DrFill
yawn. "Where's the beef?" Is that supposed to be an achievement?
TagMan
Now let's hear from Tag on how much fun his last drive in the 997 was.
I don't think anyone is saying that reliability is everything. But one thing I'll point out is that the more reliable your car is, the more time you can spend enjoying it rather than having it in the shop.
I guess anything that makes German brands look bad qualifies as a nightmare?
Go ahead, close your eyes, stick your head in the sand, ignore the evidence!
syswei,
With ALL respect, SIR, you don't get my point. I don't care WHAT they rate as good or bad. THAT's my whole point! Their ratings mean NOTHING to me and to a few others here. And YES, I know the significant impact their ratings have... so I do not need to be reminded. And I also realize that I am in the minority to disqualify them.
If the worst CR-rated Range Rover had a third-row seat, I would buy it. And, in case you haven't noticed, it isn't German, either!
You know... it's OK to not go with the mainstream once in a while, or always, for that matter. I'm comfortable with that.
Their history is too contraversial for me, and by the time they rate most consumer products, they are often already at the end of their life cycle and the newer model is about to be released. Also they do not rate nearly enough products in a category to get a true representation of what is available. It's highly selective, often dated, often subjective, often in error, and I therefore think that the best thing for me to do is disregard them... which I do.
And, the whole premise that their lower-rated cars will spend so much significant time in the shop, that they can't be enjoyed, is... well... just NOT the case!
Finally... I fully understand your enthusiasm for CR. And I do not have any genuine issue with you using the data anyway you want to. I respect your right to do so. There is no argument here at all. But do expect me to post a little jab at CR from time to time... Because I will. And at least I've provided some of my legitimate personal reasons why I have a dim view of CR, instead of just showing an unsubstantiated bias.
That's the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
TagMan
Now let's hear from Tag on how much fun his last drive in the 997 was.
TM
The integrity of the Reliability Index is based on the data available to Warranty Direct. That is why some makes and models have been purposely omitted. If we don't carry enough policies and claims to provide a fair reflection of that model's place in the UK car market today, it will only act to skew the overall picture if included in the Index. However, as the site is automatically linked to claims processed by Warranty Direct, the data is updated daily and the small number of omissions will therefore get even smaller.
Warranty Direct offers extended warranty protection on most makes of cars that are under 10 years old and 100,000 miles on the clock. The average cost of protection is £210 per annum.
Unique to Warranty Direct, policies do not have a Wear and Tear exclusion clause and damage caused by non-insured parts is also covered. These not only ensure that the Reliability Index is a more comprehensive source, but they also give our warranty customers the best protection in the UK.
Here is their list of the 100 most reliable cars in the UK (for which they have sufficient data), most reliable at top:
1 Honda Accord
2 Subaru Forester
3 Mazda MX-5
4 Mitsubishi Carisma
5 Toyota Yaris
6 Honda Civic
7 Nissan Almera
8 Honda CR-V
9 Toyota RAV4
10 Nissan Micra
11 Lexus IS 200
12 Mazda 626
13 Jaguar X-Type
14 Toyota Landcruiser
15 Volvo S/V40
16 MINI (BMW)
17 Suzuki Vitara
18 Mazda 323
19 Toyota Carina E
20 Saab 9-5
21 Lexus LS400
22 Ford Ka
23 Rover 45
24 Hyundai Lantra
25 Mercedes SLK
26 Citroen Xsara
27 Ford Cougar
28 Subaru Impreza
29 Skoda Octavia
30 Audi A4
31 Nissan Primera
32 Toyota Avensis
33 Volvo 850
34 Vauxhall Corsa
35 Seat Toledo
36 Volkswagen Golf
37 Daewoo Lanos
38 Fiat Brava
39 Hyundai Coupe
40 Mitsubishi Shogun
41 Rover 25
42 Mercedes CLK
43 Fiat Marea
44 Ford Focus
45 Peugeot 106
46 MG MG TF
47 BMW Z3
48 Hyundai Accent
49 Volkswagen Polo
50 Fiat Punto
51 Vauxhall Zafira
52 Mercedes C-class
53 Volvo S60
54 Toyota MR2
55 Mazda Xedos 6
56 Ford Puma
57 Vauxhall Astra
58 Vauxhall Omega
59 Chrysler Neon
60 Audi A2
61 Ford Fiesta
62 Ford Mondeo
63 Vauxhall Corsa
64 Citroen Saxo
65 BMW 3 Series
66 Vauxhall Vectra
67 Isuzu Trooper
68 Mercedes M-Class
69 Subaru Legacy
70 Rover 400
71 Fiat Ulysse
72 Mercedes E-Class
73 Renault Clio
74 Toyota Celica
75 Peugeot 306
76 Peugeot 406
77 Volvo S70
78 Rover 75
79 Daewoo Matiz
80 Peugeot 206
81 Mazda MX-3
82 Vauxhall Tigra
83 Seat Ibiza
84 Peugeot 106
85 Renault Megane
86 Peugeot 406
87 Saab 9-3
88 Audi A3
89 BMW X5
90 Mercedes S-class
91 Toyota Corolla
92 Seat Alhambra
93 BMW 5-series
94 Daewoo Nubira
95 Alfa Romeo 145
96 Saab 900
97 Mazda MX-6
98 Jaguar S-Type
99 Daewoo Leganza
100 Porsche Boxster
source
for ease of analysis, selected companies broken out:
60 Audi A2
88 Audi A3
30 Audi A4
65 BMW 3 Series
93 BMW 5-series
89 BMW X5
47 BMW Z3
11 Lexus IS 200
21 Lexus LS400
52 Mercedes C-class
42 Mercedes CLK
72 Mercedes E-Class
68 Mercedes M-Class
90 Mercedes S-class
25 Mercedes SLK
32 Toyota Avensis
19 Toyota Carina E
74 Toyota Celica
91 Toyota Corolla
14 Toyota Landcruiser
54 Toyota MR2
9 Toyota RAV4
5 Toyota Yaris
1 Honda Accord
6 Honda Civic
8 Honda CR-V
WHICH one is reliable?
If they are telling us the truthful facts, then their answers would be the same... right? :surprise: :shades:
BTW, I owned a Porsche Boxster for 7 years! It had ONE problem!!! I notice it is at the bottom of the "latest" "truthful" list.
TagMan
C'mon now, syswei, is that genuine meaning that you really think I and others are posting?
Or... are you just mudslinging?
TagMan
My grandma smoked 2 packs a day for over 8 decades, and lived to be 105! (a made up story) Smoking is good for you!
You can rely on annecdotal evidence if you want. It's a free country. I'd rather incorporate inputs that are gathered over a larger respondent base. If one takes the totality of data available from CR, JDP, and other sources, it points in a certain direction.
My point is that I don't rely on that data, because I'm not going to conclude like YOU did that I would expect to get more enjoyment out of driving than have my car in the shop!!
BTW, if they are ALL correct, why do JDP and CR and that other source you posted have VARYING results?
WHY do car manufacturers rate their 0-60 times, and then all the mags get 10 different results?
BTW, I don't smoke. :shades:
TagMan
I haven't said they are all correct. They use different methodologies, including different sampling methods and different questions. Even if they used identical methods (which they don't), it would make more sense to essentially take an average of all the results, because by doing so, you would get the results from a larger sample. In any event, I am saying I would rather rely on the average or totality of all the survey and other results, rather than on annecdotal evidence.
WHY do car manufacturers rate their 0-60 times, and then all the mags get 10 different results?
Because testing conditions and drivers vary, which is why, in that situation, it is valid to look at the average or totality of all the results. Much better to do that than to rely on a single result. More data = more credible results. That's why I'd rather rely on a bunch of survey/warranty data than on an annecdote or two.
BTW, I don't smoke.
But you SHOULD. My grandma lived to 105 because she smoked, so if you smoke 2 packs a day you will too!
the one conclusion from all these three sources (JDP, CR and Direct Warranty) is quite clear.
The number one reliable car is a Honda Accord.
And there are other stats and my very own anecdotal evidence that supports how good the Accord really is especially the i4 Accords.(I've read and heard some complaints about automatic V6 Accords)
Despite the above my respcet for the Accord dropped quite substantially after seeing a few on the roads. This new Accord just tries a bit too hard to look like a BMW 5 Series that it just shows how far Honda is in terms of developing their very own distinctive designs.
Hyundai as copycats is fine with me. But I had expected a bit more from Honda.
I should add to the above, that with "problem reporting" it is even more important to have a larger sample, because "problems" aren't really that frequent. If most cars only have 1 or 2 or 3 or 4 problems, then you'd better have more than a few examples of each model car in your data sample, if you want to validly distinguish those models that average 1 problem from those models that average 3 problems.
You STILL don't get it.
I'll explain again. If I were considering my health, which I do CARE about, I would be wise to pay attention to the data available and follow the recommendations made by doctors (as a consensus).
If I listen to only one doctor, I might end up with a lifestyle of eating certain herbs that could be depriving me of more important medications that I might need at some point in my lifetime.
When it comes to cars, however, I would NOT have passed up on the Boxster at that time had I seen the list you posted!!! I would NOT have passed up on my Carrera S just because it might have been listed poorly. I think LAST year, it was on top of one of the most satisfying cars list, or something to that effect? Who knows? Who cares?
So, I am NOT arguing that their is no validity to a general concensus. I've ALWAYS viewed data that way, and I've posted that. Especially with the car reviews. They are so different that, for example, when the LS460 first came out, I suggested to wait and see MANY reviews before making any major conclusions about the car. Otherwise, there would be cherry-picking... and there WAS.
Those reviews that were negative about the LS were cast aside by Lexus fans, and those reviews that were positive were embraced. Is that human nature or something? To need to justify our decisions and even ourselves sometimes? Maybe so... I'm no shrink, so I don't know.
Point is... I buy a car because I want to, and I don't consider CR in the decision process. Period.
You can, if you want to. I'm not saying you shouldn't. Some people really need the reassurance, I understand that.
The data is relevant to those that are interested. I have not said otherwise.
In addition to not smoking, I also don't watch Oprah. :shades:
TagMan
Toyota Motor Corp. recalled 470,000 vehicles in Japan Wednesday for engine, steering and motor problems in the latest sign of growing quality problems as the auto maker embarks on ambitious global growth.
link title
If you're saying that reliability has zero importance to your decision process, that is your right and personal choice. It's a free country.
For myself, reliability isn't 100% of the decision, but it is certainly somewhere north of 0%. That's my personal choice.
I agree 100 percent. That is exactly why you and I would be very worried about buying certain Toyota models.
Finally we can both agree upon something.
LOL. You do have a way with words.
TagMan
Given the cars I consider to buy, it wouldn't make any difference in the decision process anyway. Seriously, would I actually have chosen to NOT buy the Carrera S? Heck, after the test drive and a few good looks at it, I was hooked anyway.
TagMan
In all seriousness I actually meant those words.
Why would I have the risk of buying a Toyota Camry when there is a reliable Honda Accord ?
Why would I have the risk of buying a Toyota Tundra when there is a reliable Chevy Truck ?
Why would I have the risk of buying a AWD Lexus GS when there is a reliable Infiniti M AWD model ?
Achievement?
All that with Lexus reliability would count as an achievement in my book.
Oh no you didn't!
Can we start with having a better truck to begin with. Does that ring a bell? :confuse:
DrFill
Why would I have the risk of buying a Toyota Camry when there is a reliable Honda Accord ?
Because the Camry rides softer, looks better inside and out in my eyes (actually I'll pick the Accord over Camry but a lot of people will have different ideas). If the buying public is full of tagman and dewey then Toyota should just start packing and closing factories.
Why would I have the risk of buying a Toyota Tundra when there is a reliable Chevy Truck ?
Looks better and more powerful. Again, this is my point of view but let's keep in mind here, a Japanese car fan's money is just as good as a German car fan's.
Why would I have the risk of buying a AWD Lexus GS when there is a reliable Infiniti M AWD model ?
Personally I would get neither, a 535xi will my pick if I am getting an AWD sedan. However, between the 2 I'll go with the GS350AWD because:
1. It looks better
2. I like the interior better
3. Lexus' 3.5L V6 is more refined than Infiniti's
4. An Infiniti? What's the point? I'll just get a BMW. :confuse:
you can cancel that monitor order from Dell.
Here's a better link:
link title
I dont want to steer the pot here and add hysteria about Toyota reliability since overall it is pretty good. But that is not good enough for Toyota. Toyota's greatest asset is their reputation for outstanding reliability and quality. Without that they are like the Emperor without clothes just like Porsche with boring cars would be like an Emperor without clothes.
I believe Toyota has talked publicly about trying to do too much too fast, and unfavorably impacting reliability. I think they recognize the problem, and will deal with it. Fortunately for them, public perception changeds imho relatively slowly, and they have the opportunity to right the ship before public perception deteriorates too badly.