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Here are some tidbits from the link below:
The 18 alternative-fuel vehicles Daimler showed at the Frankfurt auto show included hybrid versions of the Mercedes ML-Class and S-Class that are expected to go on sale in Canada and the United States in 2009.
Mercedes also plans to launch clean-diesel versions of the GL and ML SUVs and the R-class wagon next year. They will meet the toughest emissions requirements in North America.
Alternative-power versions of the Smart city car also could cross the Atlantic, now that a trial with 100 electric Smart fortwo cars has begun in London. Europe will get a Smart hybrid this fall.
At Mercedes, the bottom may have come in 2006, when the brand ranked 25th out of 35 brands in the influential J.D. Power and Associates Initial Quality Study, which looks at problems in the first 90 days of ownership.
"The bloom was definitely off the rose, as far as quality was concerned," says Joe Ivers, executive director of quality/customer satisfaction at J.D. Powers. "The quality had become very problematic. It's very clear by now that it provoked a moment of truth at Daimler."
The company reacted quickly and effectively, according to the research. This year, Mercedes ranked fifth in IQS, a stunning turnaround for any brand, especially with the new S-Class included in the scores. Auto makers tend to score poorly on new cars.
link title
Is there a single member here who wants to actually buy a Lexus GS 450h or 600h?
Answer: NONE
What about members here who are interested in the new low emissions diesels from BMW, MB and Audi?
Answer: ALMOST EVERYONE
The result above speaks for itself without much further debate.
PEOPLE HERE DON'T REPRESENT THE WHOLE BUYING PUBLIC!!! If you still haven't figure that out by now then all I can say is you need to get out more...
Most people here are enthusiasts so naturally lesser handlers like Lexus is going to take a back seat. I wonder what'll happen if the GS450h handles just as good as the E or M? But the truth of the matter is the GS450h are selling (not great I know) and Lexus sold 198 LS600hL in its first month. If that number keeps number the 2000 units per year goal is easily achievable. How many of us here are going to buy a 760i and S600? I would say not many.
The reason why the Lexus hybrid debate kept dragging on is because the bashers are slamming on the hybrid models without looking at the whole picture and the supporters are trying hard to keep the record straight. Simple as that...
Oh yeah, and the RX400h is doing well last I heard.
We're going to get inundated with diesels, and it hasn't been established that diesel is a better option than hybrids.
And when hybrids go Lithium-Ion in two years, the diesel may be behind the curve, again.
DrFill
As a hybrid defender you are merely speaking hypothetically on what other people want and not what you yourself want.
The ones who like diesels in this forum are speaking for themselves and on what they themselves really want to buy.
Hey Doc in two years you say :confuse:
Toyota just said they are clueless on when their hybrids will have lithium ion batteries.
The fact is Toyota will not produce impressive hybrids that many will want to buy until there are lithium ion batteries.
And right now Toyota is clueless!
So what other prophecies do you have up your sleeve?
A Republican Presidential win in 2012? :surprise:
A 2097 victory for the Mets? :surprise:
What about the environmental hazards of producing hybrid batteries and disposing those batteries? How about that survey that shows that the hyrbid Prius is more detrimental to the environment than a Hummer?
In terms of your opinion I just cant believe how callous you are towards the fragile state of Mother Nature. :P
Wouldn't be the first time Toyota has covered their tracks, no?
DrFill
The buying public is voting with their hard-earn money and not their keyboards.
I will go out and say I don't want a diesel and electric power cars are the way to go in the future. The reason I am rooting for hybrids is that I think it is leading us to that with more advance batteries in the future.
The technologies don't stand still and I believe that human will find a way to prevail. Do you think people back in 1776 will believe you if you told them that human will be one day flying?
MB is confident enough not to cover their tracks. MB will introduce a E CLass Blutec diesel hybrid during model year 2010.
For further info refer to my recent MB post today.
Examples of this are the MB Blutec diesel.
BMW's performance diesel cars for North America
Audi's Blue diesels for North America
Toyota Lexus lithium ion.....oops that currently involves a foggy forecast.
Anyone here wants to make a bet that Lexus will not be the number one auto/spacecraft company by 2597
The fact of the matter is that low emissions diesels are superior to hybrids in the foreseeable future.
If I see another post on the the superiority of the Lexus GS450h or 600h then I will click my mouse on the top right "X" of my window.
And Doc please stop your Bluff because we all know that you'd rather drive a diesel Audi with a stick versus a Lexus GS450h and Syswei enough with your bluff because we all know you'd rather drive a diesel MB versus a Lexus 600h.
I dont mean to leave in a Huff but a Nuff is a Nuff. :mad:
Competition is good. I think Toyota is better, that's all. :surprise:
Having driven a few hybrids in my day, the Highlander Hybrid was EXTREMELY impressive. Lexus-quiet. TONS of torque! Puts the drivability of the Camry Hybrid and Prius to shame.
DrFill
I too, like Doc, think about the greater good and believe that electric power is the future. That's why I will never get a pure diesel because that is against my belief. I don't know in what senses are the clean diesels better than hybrids if protecting mother nature is on top of the to-do list.
Amen. I agree.
And I really do hope that Toyota will soon have lithium ion battery powered hybrids.
What about the Telsa lithium ion powered car?
That battery consists of hundreds of lithium ion laptop batteries.
Has anyone seen the video footage of that fellow in the aiport with a burning lap while working with his laptop?
Now multiply that burning excitement by hundreds and you will get an idea of how exciting a Telsa really is. :sick:
Mother Nature today would proudly be driving a Blutec and because of Blutec she would forgive MB for all its sins including the sin that is currently in my garage in the form of a 83 MB300D.
Someone will beat Toyota to market with Lithium-Ion. Toyota has more to lose if Ion doesn't come off. I'd rather do it right than do it first.
They will be ready to rock by 2010.
If we don't like the loss of truck space, I'm sure Toyota is quite P.O'd! :mad:
I don't worry about Toyota. They are not a complacent company. They're "Moving Forward".
DrFill
Yell if you want to
The wildcard in all of this is innovative developments that are brought to market quickly, such as Mercedes Benz's "diesotto" engine used in a hybrid configuration.
Something like THAT would essentially shatter the status quo, and we'd all be in a new ball game.
It's impossibled to know with any certainty how this is going to play out... but there it is reasonable enough to conceive that the diesel could very well overtake the hybrid, or be the engine component itself within the hybrid!
TagMan
I drove the previous edition twice, and both times it was not as nice as the Acura MDX... wasn't even close. And the current edition is so butt ugly, what's the point of even testing it?
And what's with that horrible grinding noise that the hybrid sytem makes in the 4X4 Highlander when you come to a complete stop? It's pathetic.
Comparing a Highlander with a Lexus, Doc? You've gone way tooooooooooooo far!
TagMan
It could go both way, unless one has a crystal ball, no one knows how this will play out.
My vision is electric power cars so for right now I am sticking with hybrids whether it's Lexus, MB or BMW.
IS-F Update:
Take a look at the picture below, it is at 240km/h (149mph) at the 6th gear and there are still 2 extra gears!!
Looks like Cadillac will have 2-3 Hybrids with 3 years, and an Escalade Hybrid next year. The Chevy Volt is big in GM's future plans, and is already being popped. And the scaru Malibu Hybrid is now on the scene. :P
Chrysler will have hybrid Durangos, and with Jim Press there, expect a regular hybrid race with Toyota to brake out.
Mercedes has several coming out, in GL, E, and S forms.
Honda is working on reinventing the CR-X as a hybrid, and desperately wants to fight for Toyota for supremacy.
And we all know Toyota has the most ambitious goals of all companies.
Within 5 years, we could have another 20 hybrid models on the road. :surprise:
And that doesn't include the Mitsubishis and Hyundais and the small-timers who don't want to miss the boat.
I really don't see where diesel will compete with that, combined with the emissions issues inherent therein.
If you are looking for market share, you're looking at hybrids. And Toyota leads the way.
DrFill
'21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)
From what I've read of BMW's goals, (and acutally Audi's goals as well), I wouldn't agree with that at all. In addition from what I see coming out of R & D at Mercedes, I think Toyota actually may end up being stuck in a hybrid rut, with no battery improvement, and no diesels to really speak of, and no innovative alternatives, such as "diesotto", and without that diesel, no diesel hybrid!
If you are looking for market share, you're looking at hybrids. And Toyota leads the way.
For now, yes... but like you showed in your list, lots of competition is coming, but also the diesels and diesel/hybrids... and Toyota might be S.O.L. in that department... suddenly and instantly behind the others... caught in their own hybrid rut. Maybe not likely, but don't get all too over-confident. We are in a time when new technologies can suddenly change everything!
TagMan
It's not a matter of if, but when Lithium-Ion is ready, diesel will no longer be a factor.
Toyota can do 250-300k a year until then, with the help of the gas industry.
DrFill
Yes, THIS is their moment of glory. We're on the same page here... but it can't last. Something, don't ask me what EXACTLY, but something is going to come along and revolutionize the industry. Toyota may very will then be playing catchup... of course not for long.
Even diesel hybrids or diesotto hybrids (if you want to stay with gas) will catch toyota off guard.
So, I guess you are right. THIS is Toyota's time for hybrids,,, that can't last forever. They had it to themselves for the most part, but that's about tho change, and the future looks like innovations that Toyota isn't ready for.
TagMan
But this market has far from peaked yet.
And the best is yet to come.
GM telling the world what they're Chevy Volt will do in two years was a good marketing move, but poor strategy.
But everybody's wheels are turning.
Toyota is the hunted, but that doesn't mean they can't eat well.
DrFill
That wasn't a marketing move at all... nor was it poor strategy.
It was about something else entirely... it was done to shore up confidence and reassure GM investors!
TagMan
Their cards are on the table, either way. That can help them, or hurt them. :confuse:
DrFill
Something like THAT would essentially shatter the status quo, and we'd all be in a new ball game.
You guys should not assume that Germany is or will be the fount of all engine innovation.
Remember that GM, Honda, Toyota all have big R&D budgets.
MB is not alone in working on HCCI:
article 1
article 2
In 2004, when discussing the potential of its HCCI work, Honda CEO Takeo Fukui estimated that an HCCI Accord could get 50 mpg (double that of conventional Accords) and that a HCCI hybrid Accord could boost mileage to 70 mpg.
No assumption like that is made by ME, I can assure you. I have some of the highest regard for HONDA!!!... one of my all-time global favorites!
TagMan
Unless I want to visit a Cadillac/Nissan dealer or risk my life after eating a late dinner at George's Pub I will avoid Brockton at all costs.
Thanks again,
Dewey
What single guy ever assumed the above :confuse:
Although German auto companies win a disproportionate share of engine awards on an annual basis that certainly does not confirm that every engine development originates in Germany.
A Honda HCCI Accord or a MB Diesotto?
At least a Diesotta has an expected date of introduction while the HCCI Honda doesn't.
But personally I'd love to buy a HCCI 70MPG Honda Accord.
Uh...here's the list for Ward's top 10 engines:
2005:
Audi 2L FSI turbocharged DOHC I-4 (Audi A3)
Audi 4.2L DOHC V-8 (Audi S4)
BMW 3L DOHC I-6 (330i)
DCX 5.7L Hemi Magnum OHV V-8 (Dodge Charger R/T)
Ford 4.6L SOHC V-8 (Mustang GT)
GM 2L supercharged DOHC I-4 (Chevrolet Cobalt SS)
GM 2.8L turbocharged DOHC V-6 (Saab 9-3 Aero)
Mazda 2.3L DISI turbocharged DOHC I-4 (Mazdaspeed 6)
Nissan 3.5L DOHC V-6 (Infiniti G35 6MT)
Toyota 3.5L DOHC V-6 (Lexus IS 350)
Source: Ward's Top 10 2005
2006:
Audi's 2.0L FSI turbocharged DOHC I-4 (Audi A3);
Audi's 4.2L DOHC V8 (Audi S4);
BMW's 3L DOHC I-6 (33i);
DaimlerChrysler's 5.7L HEMI Magnum OHV V8 (Dodge Charger RT);
Ford's 4.6L SOHC V8 (Mustang GT);
GM's 2L supercharged DOHC I-4 (Chevy Cobalt SS);
GM's 2.8L turbocharged DOHC V6 (Saab 9-3 Aero);
Mazda's 2.3L DISI turbocharged DOHC I-4 (Mazdaspeed6);
Nissans 3.5L DOHC V6 (Infiniti G35 6MT);
Toyota's 3.5L DOHC V6 (Lexus IS 350).
Source: Ward's Top 10 2006
2007:
Audi AG FSI 2L Turbocharged DOHC I-4
BMW AG 3L DOHC I-6
BMW AG 3L Turbocharged DOHC I-6
DaimlerChrysler AG 3L DOHC V-6 Turbodiesel
DaimlerChrysler AG Hemi Magnum 5.7L OHV V-8
Ford Motor Co. Duratec 35 3.5L DOHC V-6
Ford Motor Co. 4.6L SOHC V-8
Mazda Motor Corp. DISI 2.3L Turbocharged DOHC I-4
Nissan Motor Co. Ltd. 3.5L DOHC V-6
Toyota Motor Corp. 3.5L DOHC V-6
Source: Ward's Top 10 2006
So by my count, for the last 3 years, German auto makers grabbed 10 awards out of the possible 30. That's 1/3 and IMO NOT a disproportional share.
Ford Motor Co. Duratec 35 3.5L DOHC V-6
Ford Motor Co. 4.6L SOHC V-8
Mazda Motor Corp. DISI 2.3L Turbocharged DOHC I-4
Nissan Motor Co. Ltd. 3.5L DOHC V-6
Toyota 3.5L V6
The engines above should not even be ranked among the top 300 engines worldwide.
I'm talking about a international survey done among auto engineers.
I'll dig it up when I get the time.
Why am I not surprised?
Same thing goes for: CR has no credibility IMO.
As matter of fact, any publication that goes against my belief has no credibility right?
Your argument is just funny. IMO, The Nissan and Toyota 3.5L V6 will put the BMW 3.0L I6 into shame as well as the Mazda 2.3L Turbo will put Audi's 2.0L Turbo into shame as well.
I can't believe the Audi 2.0T is included in the list. The A4 I had for 2 weeks with that engine was just down right horrible.
But I beg to differ about their highly biased and wrong ratings on cars and coffee.
no need to sound so defensive. I think auto engineers opinions have a bit more weight than mine so I will get the stats.
The engines above should not even be ranked among the top 300 engines worldwide.
An enthusiast car like a BMW or Porsche is prone to be exposed to more wear and tear than a Lexus that is designed primarily for comfort.
CR ratings will be biased towards comfort and that is why Lexus usually wins.
Car Mags will be biased towards enthusiast cars and that is why certain German auto makers usually win.
A comfortable enthusiast car----YEEECH! No thanks!
IMO you got to pick either comfort or enthusiasm but certainly not both. Why compromise when you dont have to :confuse:
Maybe I have a different priority than you do towards "enthusiast cars" since I just want a go-fast car with better than average handling. Also, I don't think it's impossible to compromise the two, it's all matter of the execution.
And that, sir, doesn't make you right or I am wrong and vice versa.
Good we didn't have to sit down with a coffee (Starbucks Sumatra blend for myself while you're stuck with the CR recommended McDonalds coffee) to conclude the above.
Now I bet you want to visit! But maybe not late at night. Although I understand it is safer than late-night Toronto...
Nah, probably not.
'21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)