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Comments
DrFill
I like the Giants, but I love the Jets. The loss last week in Buffalo was a defining moment. I need one of them to make it to the playoffs. If The Chad keeps this up, Clements will be in by the end of the month. He made some awful throws today. Careless! :sick:
It going to be a competition next training camp anyway. And a 2-6 record will warrant a change, if Mangini is as good as I think he is. :surprise:
DrFill
The next RX should look a lot like the HP-X concept from several years ago! I've cracked the code!
The HPX is basically SRX in size, so the RX will essentially move to the next class, and be replaced by a Rav4-based vehicle.
And the IS will have 417HP and 376 lb.ft of torque, well above BMW's 414/295. :surprise:
AND EXPECT a AWD 6-speed manual IS-F for 2009! It is a rumor, but........
DrFill
Thanks!
Tony, I am not as up to date on Lexus rollouts as some other posters here, but I do know for a "near" fact that it will be very shortly after the new RX is released. You are so very right about the women and the Lexus SUVs!!
TagMan
TM
TagMan
TagMan
2. Do you think the IS-F will be the only F-series Lexus will produce? I think not.
3. Lexus does want to offer more AWD models, expecially in the North. And it could provide a market advantage, with the RS4 wildly overpriced.
4. Lexus will do something soon for the SC to spurn interest.
Recaro seats in the trird row seems far-fetched, doh. :confuse:
DrFill
But it does make them safer.
Of course, it would have been extra nice, if Toyota would have engineered them to fold electrically into the floor flat, like Ford, Nissan, Mercedes, Volvo.... I'm very disappointed that in this redo - that wasn't made a priority. If they had, I'd own one for sure. Now - I may have to rethink this.....dammit.
This may allow the GX to be phased out for 2009.
Lexus can go two ways with the RX Hybrid. They can use a modified system off of the Highlander, with the Econ mode, and use it as a stopgap until the Lithium-Ion batteries are ready. This will allow the Hybrid to be available from launch, which is preferable.
Or they can have the Hybrid skip a year, and get the Ion batteries for the 2010 model year (the '09 RX will be an extended year for the RX), and show more significant improvements.
Looks like the RX will span from $40k to $70k, where the LX will reside. :surprise:
DrFill
In order to have a truly equal comparison, the two vehicles would need to have the same testing conditions. I don't care if they're from the same magazines- two tests that are six months apart, in different locations, with different weather conditions are bound to produce contrasting numbers.
In fact, I've seen faster times from both of the vehicles mentioned, but especially the E320 Bluetec. A 6.4 sec 0-60 time is the average. However, the 5.5 sec time quoted for the GS450h is about normal.
The real test of these cars is fuel economy. If Mercedes had wanted to, they would've brought the E420 Bluetec to the States, which is as fast/faster than the GS450h and probably gets better mileage under most conditions. They didn't, though. And the E320's primary aim is not to be blisteringly fast- but to deliver adequate power with excellent fuel economy in a stylish, luxurious package. This it does very well.
As for the GS450h? I feel that none of the Lexus hybrids are really worth buying. They all get similar mileage to their gas counterparts, with only marginally improved performance- if it's improved at all. It gets okay mpg, but it's fast. It's also very sleek. I still do not think this is what the GS450h should be there for- they should make a GS350h that is more focused on fuel economy. It just doesn't make sense to have a GS450h and a GS460 with the same horsepower and very similar performance figures.
'06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG • '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet • '04 Lexus RX330
For mpg comparisons, I think the best tests are done with in a repeatable, defined way, under lab conditions. Such as with the EPA. Or (I assume) other countrys' government-mandated test methods. This is one reason that I prefer to stick to comparisons where all vehicles involved are on the fueleconomy.gov site. It wasn't me that brought up VW or MB vehicles that aren't available here.
As for acceleration, yes I of course agree that conditions matter. Sometimes we don't have an available comparo, though. For instance the E420 CDI you bring up....isn't for sale in the U.S. or Canada or U.K. or Austrailia. I can't find a magazine comparo that has both the E420 CDI and the GS450h. I've had to go to a German site to find data (MB Germany E sedan data). We have no choice but to assume that mpg testing methodology for Lexus is the same when Lexus puts out brochure for the German market Lexus GS German brochure
German manufacturer data:
E420 CDI: 0-100kph, 6.1sec; fuel consumption 9.3 liters/100km combined
GS450h: 0-100kph, 5.9sec; fuel consumption 7.9 liters/100km combined
So, it appears that the GS450h is slightly faster AND uses 15% less fuel.
In your words, "The real test of these cars is fuel economy."
Yes, indeed. And look who wins.
Definitley a sedan. A AWD touring wagon is as far as I will go in terms of wagons. Nor am I a fan of those new trendy CUVs.
I love Toyota. Honest I do love Toyota. Am I suppose to put my hand on book and say an oath to Toyota :confuse:
I am not trying to discount Toyota. But I am definitely discounting comparative auto tests by CR.
Their reliability stats are fine. I cant argue with them. But comparative auto tests that are carried out by appliance
testers IMO dont mean much at all.
An RX350 2WD has a curb weight of 3870 lbs, nearly identical to the E320 Bluetec's 3860 lbs. When you put a hybrid powertrain into the RX, a 2WD RX400h has the following characteristics:
much roomier than the Bluetec
identical MPG (EPA combined) to the 2WD E320 Bluetec...
DESPITE the handicap of being less aerodynamic (the RX is much taller, and slightly wider, Cd 0.35 vs 0.27)
But what about acceleration? MB puts the E320BT at 6.6 sec 0-60. Esf says 6.4 as an average for reviews, as he remembers them. Whatever. Here's what C&D said about the RX400h (in a review of the AWD rather than 2WD, which would be a fairer comparison to the 2WD E320BT):
the RX400h was indeed a quick SUV, turning a respectable 0-to-60-mph time of 7.5 seconds and a 15.9-second, 90-mph quarter-mile time in its initial test. But we didn’t have time between acceleration runs for the steady-state cruising required to fully charge the batteries. We made sure to do this during the final test after 40,000 miles, and that made a significant difference. The 0-to-60 time dropped to 6.6 seconds — matching a 340-hp Porsche Cayenne S — and the quarter-mile to 15.2 seconds at 94 mph, only 0.2 second and 1 mph slower than the Cayenne.
link title
There are some things I miss about the FJ, but overall I'm much happier with the GTI... with it's very quick and spirited performance, better gas mileage, much more comfort for front and particularly rear passengers, tons more options, and so much more fun to drive.
The FJ was reliable for its first and only year, like a Toyota is supposed to be... the only dependability issue was literally the stupid way Toyota designed the front floor mats to attach to the floor under the front seats. These stupid little plastic clips would keep breaking off. I finally ordered a bunch of them, so that when one broke, I could just put on another one to replace it. I should have had two pair of them machined out of metal, and that would have ended the problem.
BTW, the rear visibility in the FJ was by far the worst of any vehicle I have ever owned and I would venture to guess that it might hold the record for that issue, with exception of the Lotus Exige S turbo, which has zero rear visibility, except for side mirrors. Also, the rear passenger access was tricky, and the rear passenger comfort was horrible. Sometimes rear passengers would complain about feeling car sick in the rear of the FJ... that's not complimentary to the vehicle, IMO. But, the FJ is supposed to be "different" and it certainly is... a little too different for me to keep it any longer... it began to border on the side of "weird" the more I owned it.
Anyway, the point is, I have owned a Toyota, and that goes down in my history book of vehicles owned by TagMan.
TagMan
It is loonie pricing because auto pricing in Canada is in disarray right now. Most the MSRPs in Canada reflects a day and age when the Canadian dollar was 40 percented discounted to the US$. Today our Loonie dollar is worth more than a US$.
So the newest model pricings reflect our stronger dollar while the older pricings reflects our lower dollar.
Many Canadians are going to the USA to buy their models because they can save tens of thousands of dollars by doing so.
If pricing remains as it is then my next car will be bought from a dealership in Buffalo NY. That city is less than a two hour drive from where I live.
TagMan
And last year I almost bough a hybrid Camry and was ready to sign a cheque until I found out about its trunk space.
The GS450h is impressive enough against diesel sedans. I think it is amazing that a hybrid SUV...handicapped by the aerodynamics of an SUV...still looks competitive with a diesel sedan.
Of course, I could also compare the RX to a ML320 CDI, in which case the RX400h would win by a landslide. Need to see specific figures?
As a Canadian, are you allowed to buy a car in the US and bring it into Canada?
As for the GS450h? I feel that none of the Lexus hybrids are really worth buying. They all get similar mileage to their gas counterparts, with only marginally improved performance- if it's improved at all. It gets okay mpg, but it's fast. It's also very sleek. I still do not think this is what the GS450h should be there for- they should make a GS350h that is more focused on fuel economy. It just doesn't make sense to have a GS450h and a GS460 with the same horsepower and very similar performance figures.
It was only a matter of time before this post came up.
EVERY COMPARISON TEST HAS MERIT, provided they were performed at the same time, with the same drivers, under the same conditions. The only variables are when subjective opinion contradict objective data provided, which is not entirely uncommon.
The problem with the Lexus Hybrids is they made exceptional ICE engines AFTER the Hybrids were produced, thereby nullifying at least half of their advantages.
The RX400h is a considerable improvement over the RX330, but not the RX350. Same goes gor the GS. The GS350 is maybe .5 seconds slower.
Lexus choose to tune their hybrids for performance and economy, but it would seem more for performance. This philosophy may change, especially if gas prices continue their steady rise over the last 3-4 years.
The BlueTec E-class has great economy, but performs as much as 1.5 seconds slower than the E350. Any economy benefit is taken DIRECTLY from performance, the CR test being the most recent example, but here's another:
http://www.caranddriver.com/roadtests/12686/2007-mercedes-benz-e320-bluetec-verd- ict-page2.html
Diesels may indeed have their day in the sun, but I believe they will be playing catch up for the forseeable future, especially with the Lithium-Ion battery waiting in the wings.
Choice is good. Competition is great.
From what I've seen to date, Toyota is best.
I believe by 2010, Toyota may have as many as three 50MPG vehicles to offer.
Lexus should revise it's hybrid strategy, doh. I want them to MATCH the ICE performance, all things remaining equal, and then maximize economy from there.
DrFill
TagMan
"The E320 lacks the soundtrack of the gas V-6 but makes up for it with torque you can feel every time you hit the throttle. In short, the diesel feels faster."
Here's another...
"When it comes to fuel-economy numbers, however, the diesel delivers. Our lead feet averaged 34 mpg on our trip, which included some city driving, and we were able to make the entire 650-mile journey on one tank."
And just one more that really puts this comparision in perspective...
"The BlueTec isn’t lacking; it’s just that the E350 is terrific."
That statement explains a lot. the E350 is one terrific car., but the E-Class BlueTec doesn't sound all that bad to me!!
TagMan
The question is where is the right mix of performance and economy? How do you justify the extra expense?
I like what Mercedes is doing, and they have extensive plans, and budgets, for ICE, hybrids, and diesel engines over the next 5 years.
An intense propulsion competition between Toyota, BMW, GM, and Mercedes-Benz can only make better vehicles, for all of us. And it's another reason why I'm against the government interference, over and above federal standards.
People will buy what they want and need, not what the government wants them to buy, or what makers want to sell. Competition will force companies to listen, innovate, and adapt, far better than any governemnt can legislate.
When I need government input, I get the Katrina aftermath and the Social Security crisis. When I don't want them involved, I get Iraq and the Patriot Act. Let's calm down with Big Brother! :mad:
DrFill
Would you want a food industry that was not regulated, or a drug industry that was not regulated?
So, IMO, there are legitimate government regulations and standards that are for the good of the nation... controlling air and water pollution has historically proved itself to be necessary, if you will remember back to the unregulated days.
Given the world energy situation, I also think it is clear that we need to set some standards to get us to a position that we NEVER run out of energy or are dependent upon those wonderful folks that gave us the gas lines in the 70's, and who would just as soon see you dead than alive for no reason at all other than you are an American.
TagMan
Yes. The only reason Canadians buy cars in Canada is because they dont think they are allowed to buy in the USA or they may think it is a hassle in terms of duty payments and extra costs.
But here is the truth:
Warranty issues: None as long as it is a North American warranty (every auto marque I know of has a N. American warranty)
Duties: Yes duties exist if the car is made outside of North AMerica but those charges are minimal when compared to the US-Candian price differences.
Customs Paperwork and changing the gauges to metric: Many US dealers charge a fee for such work. I know a MB dealer in Buffalo that charged only $75 for this type of work.
Canadian dealers are frantic at the thought of Canadians finding out how easy it is to buy in the USA. The auto companies themselves are indifferent since a North American sale is a North American sale no matter where it is sold.
TagMan
Tagman in this case I disagree with your view above.
And I agree with Dr. Fill. :surprise:
Governments are not going to solve the problems of energy dependance and the scarcity of fuels.
That responsibility starts with the consumer not government. The Big 3 and Toyota are fighting for their legitimate right to sell cars that the consumer wants. And no automaker should be punished for that.
We cant blame the Big 3 and Toyota for fighting against stricter environmental laws since if they did abide by such new laws and produced autos that are consistent with such laws then N. American consumers will not find the cars that they really want. We North AMericans want SUVs and performance cars and the dictates of regulations will hurt the Big 3 and Toyota because they will be faced with a shortage of the SUVs and performance cars that consumers really want and a surplus of econoboxes that consumers really dont want.
The MARKET is the only solution for our energy predicament. As energy demand growth surpassses supply growth then higher prices will make consumers less eager to buy SUVs and performance cars. The MARKET and not the Government is where the solution lies.
The reason many forum members here are interested in hyrbids and diesels is mainly due to high gas prices. And it is those market driven high gas prices that will change our behavior to become more frugal( even a luxury auto buyer who has the luxury to choose not to be frugal will become frugal anyways).
I believe if I am not mistaken that the only solution in California is to buy a diesel outside of California?
Some businesses, left unregulated, will go to any length to make a profit at others expense, including the public's expense. The Chinese have no regard for copyright infringement, and we are already seeing a BMW X5 clone from China. Why? Their government doesn't care.
In the U.S., if Ford built a clone of the 3-Series BMW, they'd be in a heap of trouble.
Left alone without regulations, Dow chemical would have poisoned more people than you would ever know about. Left alone without regulations, the nuclear reactors would have leaked even more radiation than was already leaked. Left alone without regulations, the food additives in our food supply would be tremendous and toxic. Left alone without government regulations, the produce and meat we eat would be full of e-coli. Left alone without government regulations, vaccinations would not be required for our children in school, and in fact without regulations, children wouldn't even have to go to school.
Left alone without regulations, chemical workers would be exposed, as they were before regulations came into effect, to toxic chemiclas that would show up later in their lives as cancer. Asbestos would still be in our homes.
Auto manufacturers have already proven that they would fight seat belt requirements, bumper requirements, air bag requirements, ABS brake system requirements, child-seat requirements, emissions requirements, and on and on... becuase this is the proven track record of the industry.
I'm not a Ralph Nader fan, but I get his point.
With today's technology, and future innovations, it will indeed be possible to build a highly fuel efficient car that performs like a BMW or Porsche. If we live long enough, I gurantee we will see it within only a couple of decades, or less.
And with the government there to make sure the progress happens, the manufacturers will come through. They will have to for two reasons.
1. The regulations will require it.
2. the marketplace will insist that they get the kind of products that they want.
This means that if the regulation is for a 40 mpg car, and the public wants a large luxury sedan that gets 40 mpg and goes 0-60 in lets say 5.5 seconds... the manufacturers will figure out how to build it.
The Camry sedan is living proof that getting part of the way there is possible. This technology is still in the early stages... yet here is a reasonable sized car that already gets the mileage that the manufacturer's are fighting against. And, it's not some kind of nasty compromised car just to meet the regulation. It's actually an accomplishment that PROVES the manufacturers CAN do it.
The requirements of government mixed with the market demands will force the manufacturers to come up with the products the market wants, and they WILL... I know they can and I know they will. They don't need the easy way out... cause if given to them, they'll take it.
Don't be fooled into thinking that we'll all be driving econoboxes if the government has its way. I saw a picture of an upcoming hybrid sports car from Toyota that looked awesome. The Tesla is a different breed of animal and I don't think it fits the standard market need. But the Camry and Prius are good beginnings. The Diesotto hybrid will also be a good beginning... what's to stop it from being placed inside a luxury car?
I'll stop now, but I am totally convinced that establishing standards is a good way to set a goal... and then accomplish it and meet the market demand at the same time.
TagMan
TM
The ML450...will be Mercedes’ first two-mode hybrid, featuring the same 275-hp V-6 as the S400, but it will be able to move the heavy ute solely on electric power in low-load conditions. Fuel economy jumps from the teens for the ML350 to 31 mpg for the ML450 hybrid.
I'm assuming they are talking EPA numbers, since it is a US mag and the 2008 EPA number for the ML is indeed 17mpg combined.
The 2008 EPA for the ML320 diesel: 21 mpg
31 vs 21? Diesel vs hybrid? Case closed, hybrid naysayers!
This is the technology that I told you guys would make it into MB and BMW vehicles from the Yukon and Tahoe hybrids I was so impressed with (20mpg, only 1 less than the ICE ML, in a MUCH larger SUV than the ML). Since MB is calling it the ML450 hybrid, I think we can assume performance is pretty decent, to boot. We'll have to see if there is any give-up of cargo space, but the RX, Tahoe, and Yukon went hybrid without losing any cargo space.
Now all we have to do is wait for BMW to get the technology into an X or 5, to make the handling enthusiasts happy.
Then we'll be able to move the debate from "diesel vs hybrid" to "whose hybrid is better?" and "who'll be first to market with diesel hybrids?". I think the answers to those questions don't favor Toyota, for now, but then Toyota isn't standing still, either.
When I said free of regulations I did not mean "free anything goes anarchy". Trademarks and copyrights are regulations that are needed in any free economy.
What I am saying is that the government is not required to impose its views on us on what fuel economy auto manufacturers should seek. That role is best played out by markets.
What if fuel prices increases 100 pecent next month. Consumers will scream and blame Big Oil ,Greedy Oil Sheikhs, Auto Companies and everyone but themselves on our oil dependance. Most people will scream for Government actions like penalties on auto firms for producing cars that consumers want and taxes on oil companies who are seeking new oil reserves. Such an interventions would be a disaster since the ones who will feel the least pain will be consumers. IMO extremelly high oil prices is exactly what we need to change our ways and make the majority of consumers and businesses conservationists.
Former President Jimmy Carter tried to make Amercians conservationists with Government actions and failed badly in his endeavors. The best conservationists are the ones who feel the pain in their wallets and it is the markets that are best in inflicting that pain.
Federal standards are fine, micro-management isn't.
That's what luxury cars are for, so you can have everything in one vehicle. The government wants to come off as environmentally-friendly, but have done more to damage the environment, globally, than any faction on Earth.
The market works much faster than the government, and will do more to help makers build what is required for the market.
If the government said the CA standard will be the national standard in 2015, that would be one thing.
People driving 20 year old cars/trucks, that had minimal emissions standards, do the damage of 20 new cars.
I think makers are doing their part, and the market is watching very closely.
The two best-selling vehicles in our country are the F-150 and Silverado. And at least half of those customers don't need trucks to drive daily. When that changes, the makers can really get CAFE up.
DrFill
Here's one reason why some gullible folks are paying hefty prices for Swiss watches.
GENEVA -- In the rarefied world of watch collecting, where Wall Street investment bankers and Asian millionaires buy and sell at auctions, a timepiece can command a higher price than a luxury car. At an April event here, a 1950s Omega platinum watch sold for $351,000, a price that conferred a new peak of prestige on a brand known for mass-produced timepieces.
Watch magazines and retailers hailed the sale, at an auction in the lush Mandarin Oriental Hotel on the River Rhone. Omega trumpeted it, announcing that a "Swiss bidder" had offered "the highest price ever paid for an Omega watch at auction."
What Omega did not say: The buyer was Omega itself.
Through the auctions, Swiss watchmakers have found a solution to a challenge shared by makers of luxury products from jewelry to fashion: getting their wares perceived as things of extraordinary value, worth an out-of-the-ordinary price. When an Omega watch can be sold decades later for more than its original price, shoppers for new ones will be readier to pay up. "If you can get a really good auction price, it gives the illusion that this might be a good buy," says Al Armstrong, a watch and jewelry retailer in Hartford, Conn.
Singaporean collector, told of Omega's role, called it "heinous." Melvyn Teillol-Foo, who bid over the Internet and bought a few pricey watches, added: "If it turns out they bid against me and got me to $8,000, I would be ticked off."
Wall Street Journal
The reason I say this is because years ago, Toyota announced that EVERY car and truck they sell be available as a hybrid vehicle within 10 years (of the announcment).
Now, I don't know if they did that as a RESULT of government standards, or because they were simply being innovative, or BOTH, but credit goes to them for that gigantic pledge that they seem committed to keeping.
I've always given them kudos for that, and I have posts in the archives of the HELM forum to prove it. However, I still don't agree with their involvement with the Auto Alliance, but there is reasonable logical merit to keeping the states out of the picture and avoiding potentially 50 different standards. I do understand that reasoning.
I still do think, however, that certain reasonable standards should be in place. I won't change my mind on that one.
TagMan
You got that right Doc! I can't for the life of me understand the American fascination with trucks. I can understand buying a truck if you really need one for hauling, etc. However, as you stated, half of these customers just buy a truck for the heck of it. WHY? You couldn't pay me enough to buy a truck.
Politically unpalatable, but imho the best way to do it.
TagMan
As opposed to... reward what is good.
TagMan
Tax what is bad... use some of the revenue to
Reward what is good.
TagMan (not TaxMan...LOL)