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Comments
esf: DIESEL. Better performance, better efficiency.
Excuse me for having the temerity to ask, but where's the evidence?
We know which drivetrain does better at 0-60: hybrid. Did one of you post 0-30 times for comparable diesel and hybrid cars?
Did you guys bother to look at the SUV numbers I posted, which I think rather conclusively show that current hybrid SUVs get better mpg than current diesel SUVs, taking into account size/performance? Or do you prefer to close your eyes to anything that might challenge your cherished preconceived beliefs?
Did you consider the efficiency/acceleration tradeoff that the E320 Bluetec makes? It appears to me that if a GS hybrid were engineered to get the same mpg as a E320 Bluetec, it would likely still have better acceleration than the E320BT, but the margin wouldn't be as large as it is now.
Have you considered that the "handling" argument against the GS450h is more an issue with the vehicle being from Lexus (designed to lean a bit more to luxury), and less due to the fact that it has a hybrid powertrain? That if and when BMW produces a gas-hybrid 5, it will handle better than a GS450h and I predict better than a E320BT?
Here's a link for you to read:
BMW Says 3.0L Twin-Turbo Diesel U.S.-Bound
Here's some of the text...
Satch Carlson, editor of Roundel, the official magazine of the BMW Car Club of America, says the 335d and 535d would make the most sense in the U.S.
“Both of these models are absolute rockets, especially when accelerating from freeway speeds to Autobahn speeds,” says Carlson, who has tested the cars extensively.
BMW will bring 3.0L I-6 engine to U.S. next year.
The twin-turbo 335d in Europe makes 286 hp and 427 lb-ft. (578 Nm) of torque.
“That makes it a performance engine in the American tradition of the stop-light Grand Prix,” Carlson says.
The same car also achieves a combined cycle of 35 mpg (6.7 L/100 km). By comparison, the turbocharged ’08 335i for U.S. delivery gets a combined cycle of 20 mpg (11.7 L/100 km) and delivers 300 hp and 300 lb.-ft. (406 Nm) of torque.
Did you catch those comments and numbers, syswei?
Read the article if you want to, but I won't continue to justify my preference. This is not an argument about which alternative powertrain is better. It is a matter of preference. But, I do believe that 427 lbs. of torque will, in Carlson's own words, "make it a performance engine in the American tradition of the stop-light Grand Prix.”... which is very similar to my comment about racing off the green light.
Now, I've made my vote, and I'm very comfortable with it. I don't like the batteries and many other attributes of hybrid. But I do like diesels... so that's how I voted...
DIESEL!
TagMan
The GTI that I recently purchased is not going to be a long-term keeper for me, but in the meantime it is a lot of fun to drive a turbo-charged gas engine that easily delivers mid-twenties to thirty, depending upon how it is driven.
It can make easy enough sense, as there are none of the issues associated with the alternatives.
Good post.
TagMan
I hope you liked that link I posted a couple of posts back. It looks more and more like that 335d might just make it here after all. WOW. That just about makes all the other choices almost vanish!
TagMan
(H)
It so happens that the MB E350 gas model has lacklustre 90 Day JD Powertrain ratings. Isn't that a coincidence? Just like the Blutec.
Now look at the JD Powertrain ratings for the 5 series gas models. Unlike the MB E Class gas model,BMW models have GREAT Powrertain ratings. And I dont think it will be mere coincidence that the BMW diesel powertrain reliability will be just as great as their gas models. Dont you think?
Also c'mon 90 Days ratings. What on earth does a low rating mean anyways. Malfunctioning powertrains? I dont think so!
Until 5 year dependability stats are availabe there is nothing conclusive whatsoever about the evidence you have provided.
NOTHING WHATSOEVER! There is nothing worse than basing an argument on a useless statistic.
German car reliability? What the hell does that mean? Sort of like saying Isuzu and various notorious Mazda and Nissan models are representative of the quality of every single Japanese auto produced. I have news for you: BMW and MB are both German companies but both of them do have different reliability records. AINT THAT A SHOCKER :P
currently there is not a single hybrid that I currently like. So add one point for diesel. Driving a BMW 3 or 5 Series and gainging a large percentage of fuel mileage in both the city and highway makes a diesel quite compelling.
Also there is no hybrid with the driving dynamics of a BMW and none are sold with a good ole fashion manaul stick.
A stretch? Most of Britain was not fond of diesel just 3 years ago and guess what happens now---70 percent of BMWs are diesel while just 3 years ago only 7 percent of BWMs were diesels. Those figures prove diesel BMWs are so marketable that they are almost quaranteed to succeed in the USA.
The above aint no science fiction. :shades:
Those figures arent Buck Rogers Luke Skywalker figures. They're today's reality.
I am so excited after reading the article on the BMW diesels that are coming here soon.
The 335d sounds like a long-term keeper, if there ever was one! The car sounds absolutely incredible.
TagMan
However, in the case of two cars with similar power, one hybrid, one diesel, the diesel will not only be more efficient but just as quick/quicker. One example:
Toyota Camry Hybrid: 187hp, 33.5mpg, 0-60 in 8.6 seconds
VW Passat 2.0TDI : 170hp, 46.3mpg, 0-60 in 8.1 seconds
Also:
Honda Civic Hybrid: 110hp, 42.5mpg, 0-60 in 11.3 seconds
VW Jetta 1.9 TDI: 105hp, 47.9mpg, 0-60 in 11.1 seconds
Granted, the diesels are not blistering, but the deeper you get into their torque, the more they distance themselves from their hybrid counterparts. If the Jetta 1.9TDI isn't fast enough, there's the 140hp 2.0TDI, which still gives you 46.3mpg and gets from 0-60 in 9.0 seconds. Of course, the best one is the Sport TwinCharger. It's not a diesel- but it's a very unique technology. I'm sure you know about it, so I won't go into detail, but it attains 40mpg and gets from 0-60 in 7.5 seconds. Not bad for a Jetta!
The E320 Bluetec may not be as fast as the GS450h, but it gets almost twice the mileage on the highway- while being as quick as the old E320 petrol. That's nothing to sneeze at.
'06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG • '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet • '04 Lexus RX330
Yes, the diesels are coming, but their success is not guaranteed. As Lutz said in his corporate video blog: "Are buyers of smaller cars actually going to pay a $4,000 to $5,000 premium to get a diesel engine?"
Have these critics ever looked at the price of the MB Blutec?
Here in Canada a MB E Blutec is the same price if not cheaper than a MB E350. And this is a luxury model not a economy small diesel model. A econmy diesel model with little displacement can forgo the expensive urea and still hit the high new emissions standards of California or elsewhere. In otherwords the premium price of an economy diesel model over a gas economy model is likely to be as non-existent or even cheaper as it is for the MB E Class model.
That 4K to 5K dollar figure that you pointed out is nothing more than a pie in the sky figure. And assuming even if diesel technoloy costs 5K dollars no automaker will sell it at a 5K dollar premium since such a model would be as unpopular as a hybrid Honda Accord or Lexus GS450H. And no automaker would even have plans to sell such an expensive diesel especially to the diese- skeptical USA.
But apparently almost every single auto maker with diesel technology intends to sell diesels to all US States. This in itself refutes the notion that it costs 5K dollars for new diesel technology. Dont you think?
Those poll results above are are confirmed by the auto market worldwide . Luxury hybrids with today's technology cannot compete with the wonders of the latest diesel technologies from Europe. And when more diesels are introduced in the USA than Americans will sensibly find out the best alternative is the diesel alternative.
Not really. but the vote is over.
German manufacturers are about to introduce hybrids and Japanese, starting with Honda I believe, will introduce diesels. So that wasn't the intention, but some have seen it that way, so the vote is over.
We have seen the outcome has not been civilized, so there is no sense to continue.
I have apologized for thinking that it was possible to take such a poll without it being misinterpreted. I was wrong.
Again, the poll is over.
TagMan
Infiniti M35 vs Volvo S80 vs BMW 535i vs Lexus GS450h
Then Lexus GS450h vs Mercedes E350 BlueTec (I forget is it 320 or 350)
THEN Mercedes S550 vs Lexus LS460L
Basically the M35 dominated, as it did in C&D, lending then a little much needed credibility. The Volvo and the GS were the bottom-feeders. They liked the BMW and Mercedes, but the M was above and beyond, in their eyes.
The 535 was clocked at 5.8, GS450h at 5.9, E350 at 6.5. I forget the M, but it was around 6 seconds flat as well.
The M35X is their champion in this class, and the standard backs it up as 2nd.
The GS450h was much faster than the BlueTec at 5.9 seconds. The BlueTec was 8.0, at 208HP, about 60HP less than the E350. But the BlueTec was 25% more efficient, 29 MPG, vs 23 for the GS450h.
The GS got a score of 71, around the bottom of their rankings. The BlueTec was around 85.
Then the Main Event, the LS vs the S.
Acceleration and Braking were virtual dead-heats (6.0 vs 6.0 Lexus), but the Lexus scored a 99 out of 100, vs the S-Class score of 86.
The next highest score is the M35X at 97.
This soothes my spirit. :shades:
DrFill
The Poll was over before it started. You would get the same results as the German Vs. Japanese vote. People on this board vote along party lines. The German zealots would vote in favor of anything German. Wait and see, when the Germans introduce Hybrid, it will undoubtedly be the greatest thing since silicon:) A Don't know why this was such a touchy issue, but the results were very predictable.
Me either.
But I agree that there was probably some voting for the European or Japanese cars , instead of the powertrain itself.
Anyway, it was a bad idea.
I'm glad Doc took credit for it early on. LOL
No, just kidding... I take responsibility for it.
But, it did cause some hostility and nastiness, which I am deeply dissappointed to have seen.
TagMan
Consider the source... right?
TagMan
This is Jose, one of the voters for diesels. It happens that am very satisfied with my German BMW 530d. It could be other brand and drivetrain, but it is what it is. Is it that bad or submissive to tell in this forum my experience and vote well-heartedly according to it?
Let me add that I am like a semi-old dog that follows its own path. It can be coincident with other's path today and with still other's path any other day. Even for wild dogs there are occasionally common paths. Think in fords.
In any case, I am not really a dog but a civilized person. Because of that I choose not follow my path barking back to others crossing by. In other words, I will not take offense from recent words. (I speak for myself. Before posting this I have waited for Dewey and Tagman answers.) Yet I feel I could not let this disgraceful subject pass without my opinion on it.
Jose
(HDi 308 Series now ranges from 90 to 136 hp; I do not know the specs. of the future hybrid-diesel 308)
Jose
Germany: 1,835,638 (-8.3%). Population: 82,400,996
Italy: 1,632,627 (+7.3%). Population: 58,147,733
UK: 1,443,576 (+2.4%). Population: 60,776,238
France: 1,263,948 (+0.3%). Population: 63,713,926
Spain: 1,215,801 (+2.0%). Population: 40,448,191
Total: EU 8,935,593 (-2.0%). Population: 490,000,000
Italians still at the car-loving forefront.
Jose
Must have something to do with the new sales of the Fiat 500. A very sexy looking small car in my opinion.
Mid-size Sedans
BMW Series 3: 17,676
VW Passat: 17,579
Peugeot 407: 17,403
Audi A4: 14,637
Ford Mondeo: 11,825
Big-size Sedans
Audi A6: 6,234
BMW Series 5: 4,970
MB Class E: 4,722
Hyundai Sonata: 3,203
Lexus IS 220: 1,351
Representative Sedans
MB Class CLS: 1,525
MB Class S: 1,247
Audi A8: 465
BMW Series 7: 376
Lexus GS 300: 241
Small-size SUVs (EDIT)
BMW X3: 5,712
Chevrolet Captiva: 4,004
Hyundai Santa Fe: 3,828
Nissan Pathfinder: 3,488
Mitsubishi Outlander: 3,243
Mid-size SUVs
Toyota Land Cruiser: 5,642
Mitsubishi Montero: 3,163
Jeep Grand Cherokee: 1,618
Land Rover Discovery: 957
Santana Anibal: 192
Big-size SUVs
MB Class ML: 4,124
Audi Q7: 3,840
BMW X5: 3,178
VW Touareg: 3,120
Volvo XC90: 2,376
Jose
Regards,
Jose
http://tramontanagroup.com/
http://www.supercars.net/cars/3126.html
Honestly, I do not like its aesthetics. I hope its performance will be better!
Jose
TagMan
The only person in a position to cast a meaningful vote here is Jose. He loves his clean modern diesel and I respect his opinion. If someone here actually owns a luxury hybrid it would be nice to hear from them.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
I'm pretty surprised the CR issue has brought little reaction from the crowd.
This is big doings, people! :surprise:
DrFill
Maybe some of you could stop and think about this - there is no one who is "in charge" of what we're talking about here any more than you are yourself. Talk about what you want to talk about, skip what you don't. Don't attack others for what they want to talk about and don't tell others what they should be (or should not be) talking about.
I think that adds up to "live and let live" - give it a try.
Edit: Above all do not tell others how to behave. If you think someone is out of line, PLEASE LET ME HANDLE IT.
This has to be the most important and unbiased comparison ever between the S and the LS. Despite a much lower price, the LS bested the S in pretty impressive fashion.
Just as some of us knew it would. :shades:
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
So, couldn't us Yuppies just buy a two year old XJ or XK for about the same price as a new X-type and say, "Yeah, I drive a Jag?"
I agree about the headlights on the XF although final overall judgment will be rendered when the car is viewed live and in person.
And note that the "traditional" Jags were selling about as well as Mercedes R Classes!
'21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)
“Both of these models are absolute rockets, especially when accelerating from freeway speeds to Autobahn speeds,” says Carlson, who has tested the cars extensively.
The twin-turbo 335d in Europe makes 286 hp and 427 lb-ft. (578 Nm) of torque.
“That makes it a performance engine in the American tradition of the stop-light Grand Prix,” Carlson says.
The same car also achieves a combined cycle of 35 mpg (6.7 L/100 km).
The quotes that you are so proud of are notably absent of any comparisons to the competition. A "rocket" compared to what? To a BMW gas engine? To an MB diesel? Not to a GS450h, and here are specific figures:
from post 6526
So how does the GS450h compare to the BMW 535d which is widely regarded as one of the best diesel engines in the business?
On performance at 5.9 seconds the Lexus beats the 5 series to 62 mph which arrives at 6.5 seconds. However diesel’s aren’t best suited to this, their strong hold is in gear acceleration thanks to lots of torque. However the Lexus combines instantaneous mountains of torque from the electric motor with top end power thanks to its 3.5 litre petrol engine. So on performance the hybrid wins again.
According to the official figures both cars have a combined fuel consumption of around 35 mpg.
I predict that if and when BMW has both gas hybrid and diesel versions of the 5 available in the US, the germancarfans here will prefer the performance/economy of the gas hybrid. The only real comparative negative for hybrid is trunk space.
You should know better than this. "Quickness" as you term it is a function of both hp and torque. Diesels are known for relatively weak hp and relatively high torque. So if you want to compare only cars of similar hp, you give diesel the advantage (because the diesel will then way out-torque the competition).
Another way to rebut what you've said:
If MB or some other company puts a DiesOtto or some other advanced powertrain into a E-Class, and it gets higher HP and the same mpg and better acceleration than a GS450h, do you want me to come back to you and say: "That's not a fair comparison. We have to compare vehicles of like hp."?
A third way to rebut what you've said:
We are talking about the economy/mpg and the performance of various powertrains. If a large sedan were to get 40mpg AND go 0-60 in 5 sec, I couldn't care less whether it was achieved with a 50hp engine or a 500hp engine. When you're talking mpg and acceleration, it's the results that count.
Fully agreed.
Jose
VW Passat 2.0TDI : 170hp, 46.3mpg, 0-60 in 8.1 seconds
Also:
Honda Civic Hybrid: 110hp, 42.5mpg, 0-60 in 11.3 seconds
VW Jetta 1.9 TDI: 105hp, 47.9mpg, 0-60 in 11.1 seconds
You appear to have taken the VW numbers from the VW UK site, as those TDIs are not on sale in the US as far as I know. I have cautioned people on this board to be careful making comparisons between UK/European stats and US stats, both because of differing units (e.g., Imperial gallons) and differing test regimes. For instance, I mentioned this in connection with the 44 mpg widely quoted for the MB F 700. Funny how germancarfans seem to forget this elementary point. Or maybe they choose to ignore facts that make German cars look not so impressive.
Here's a demonstration of just how much those differences matter:
GS450h, U.S. (2008 method) EPA: 23mpg combined
GS450h, U.K. (Lexus UK website): 35.8mpg combined
If you care to make conversions for the flawed numbers you originally posted, you'll get an idea of where the truth lies.
Anyway, I had to go to the public library for something else. May 2007 and Nov 2006 C&D:
......E320BT....GS450h
0-60 / 6.8 / 5.5
5-60 / 7.2 / 6.1
30-50 / 3.7 / 2.8
50-70 / 4.7 / 3.6
1/4 mile / 15.1@92mph / 14.1@103mph
Yes, that's right, the GS450h won every available acceleration comparison, and by a significant enough margin that it isn't hard to imagine how the GS would have fared in tests that C&D didn't do (such as 0-30....though if I were the type to race strangers at stoplights, I think I'd want to go beyond 30...)
BTW the GS450h also beat the M45 Sport on all acceleration metrics.
Any thoughts on the possible improvement in the battery situation?? I also have concern obout the cost of battery replacement, as it has been my experience that when I have to have something---the price just soars...Another thing I have come to understand (from wwest) that for the converter in the exaust system (catilic sp ) to operate properly the hybred has to run the engine regularly...This hurts mpg alot.. These and the transmisssin were the discoveries that led me away from the Lexus (which I really wanted) back then (two yrs ago) Tony
I am glad you read and appreciated that article. It was an eye-opener for me as well. That twin-turbo diesel engine has an absolute massive amount of torque and delivers unbelievable fuel economy. I have high expectations for the BMW diesels... and the good news is, of course, that they will be inside BMWs, which means they will have their typically wonderful driving dynamics!
So, Mr TagMan some good came from the contest. Tony
Yes, Tony, thank you for pointing that out.
TagMan
To tell you the truth, Doc, I know how influential CR is in this country, But, IMO they don't deserve it.
They are biased, IMO, I wouldn't give them credit for being unbiased even if they said that German cars were the best cars in the world.
The true history of CR is one filled with lawsuits and legal issues, and questionable information, testing, and reporting.
So... as a result, I don't have any comment on their report, as it means nothing to me. I do hope that helps answer your question, to the point that I can only speak for myself, of course.
TagMan
The public perceives Toyota as a "green" company, but have you been following the news lately? It seems that Toyota's involvement with the Auto Alliance, of which I have posted about several times, has finally become national news, and tons of people have been protesting Toyota just recently for their two-faced approach to being "green"... finally realizing that in those smoke-filled back rooms, Toyota had been hard at work, lobbying, to undermine any attempts to increase fuel economy standards and standards for cleaner emmissions. Is that really what we should expect from Toyota? And it's not exactly the public image of Toyota, is it?
Public perception isn't always correct, or complete, is it?
I respect those companies that have standards and live up to them, instead of put on a front and act differently behind the scenes. IMO, that is deceptive and hypocritical.
TagMan
Diesel isn't without some extra costs of its own (such as urea refills). Plus extra driving (time and money) and extra hassle because not every service station has diesel.
I haven't seen any stories, good or bad, about the 1997-99 vintage Prius vehicles. I wish we had at least some annecdotes to go on. Someone did point out that some hybrid Ford taxis have 150k miles on them.
Another thing I have come to understand (from wwest) that for the converter in the exaust system (catilic sp ) to operate properly the hybred has to run the engine regularly...This hurts mpg alot..
Not sure what is meant here, but wouldn't it already be incorporated into the EPA mpg ratings?
These and the transmisssin were the discoveries that led me away from the Lexus (which I really wanted) back then (two yrs ago)
Would be interested to hear what transmission issues you discovered. BTW there is someone on this board who has an RX400h and seems quite happy with it
Until 5 year dependability stats are availabe there is nothing conclusive whatsoever about the evidence you have provided.
In the absence of long term data, 3 month data at least offer a clue. Put it this way, if you were looking at 2 different model cars, both of which were in the first year of their lifecycles, and you viewed them as being equally desireable except for differing 3 month reliability data, would you choose the car with better or worse 3 month reliability?
There is nothing worse than basing an argument on a useless statistic.
Oh yes there is: basing an agrument on no data at all, or solely on annecdotal data. "My grandma drove her 1978 300D to 500k miles! You gotta buy a 2008 E320 Bluetec" Oh yeah, well "MY grandma smoked 2 packs a day and lived to be 105. Cigarettes must be good for health, so you gotta smoke 2 packs a day too."
This great reputation has been earned over many years of careful, honest reporting. Americans are not easily fooled and I have a healthy respect for their "perceptions".
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Doc,
I find your reaction to CR quite surprising. :surprise:
Is this the same magazine that ranked McDonalds Coffee as better than Starbucks :lemon:
Serious coffee addicts and conoissers are united with laughter over this CR decision. Unfortunately many people who do not know any better will believe that McDonalds single blend is superior to all the blends that are changed almost on a dailly basis at Starbucks as many gullible car owners believe that a dull auto is a better choice than an exciting auto.
Car buffs and caffeine addicts are alike in knowing better than taking a Consumers Report seriously. :shades:
So my question to you Doc is why the heck are you taking this CR article so seriously :confuse:
In all honesty I would not pay much attention to such stats to begin with because three months of ownership does not siginify much in terms of giving a clue of how the car will really be for 5 years.
My first months of owning my BMW323i was so bad in terms of frequently visiting my dealership that I was thinking of selling it. Eight years hence I was so glad I kept my BMW 323i because it was an inexpensive car to maintain. I own cars for years not months and that is why 3 months data for me is highly irrelevant.