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Comments
:shades: Dí que sí :shades:
But I still found the GS 450h the most convincing alternative to the German mainstream I have experienced. Clearly the hybrid drive offers considerable economy and some emissions benefits but the talent you notice most is how driveable it makes the car, offering such instant urge in all conditions it makes conventional petrol engines seem a little impotent in the lower reaches of their rev ranges and diesels strangled by their inherently narrow powerbands.
It is a "joke" only because it flies in the face of your pre-conceived notions.
Again, I welcome you to find hard data for all of us to see, and will gladly accept it if from a credible source, under fair test conditions.
Instant takeoff in a hybrid is not even truly posible. There is a small lag time for the engine to turn back on, due to the engine shutdown function when fully stopped. It is not a long amount of time, granted, but nonetheless it still exists. A non-hybrid vehicle (without the auto-stop function) can take off instantaneously.
TagMan
A reasonable point. And if you are really into racing strangers at stoplights, the GS450h ain't for you.
Note that not every stop is going to involve engine-shutdown.
For the third time in a day, I UNDERSTAND THAT HYBRID SEDANS HAVE A SERIOUS TRUNK SPACE PROBLEM.
That's a big reason that I'm not going to buy the current generation of hybrid sedans myself.
Sorry, I have no sense of humor and didn't realize!
Everyone here is being respectful...so stay calm... you've been doing fine so far... don't blow it now.
TagMan
Don't cry, D. You'll get 'em next time. :P
DrFill
I don't think so. Syswei merely went to some good lengths to put some data out there, but it did not completely change the nature of the differences between the cars.
The E320 still has more torque, and does not have an auto-stop function. It is faster off the line, and it FEELS faster with that torque than a comparable gas vehicle, and it also has a full trunk. It's real-life gas mileage is better, and does not need a battery system that takes space and weighs down the vehicle, and has a life-span shorter than the vehicle itself. Shall I continue?
Yes, I'll continue... the BMW diesel will be out soon in a 50-state version, and it will have even more torque and will also have the BMW handling that any Lexus has yet to come close to.
So, when you say "one for the home team", you infer that this is a contest. I credit Syswei for attempting to be objective with facts... but those facts don't necessarily give either powertrain alternative a definitive "win". Those facts just point out some of the differences.
Also, those "facts" are, in some cases, dependent upon the source... so they would be different if from a different source.
This is not a contest, Doc. It's an observation of two alternative powertrains, and a contrasting perspective between them. In addition it is a contrast between a few different vehicles... one of which has a very small trunk!
TagMan
still haven't seen numbers to support this
and does not have an auto-stop function.
an advantage in some situations for performance, but at the expense of economy
It is faster off the line
still haven't seen numbers to support this
It's real-life gas mileage is better
Percentage-wise, the EPA combined mpg favors the E320BT, but by a lesser percentage than the give-up in 0-60 time.
Take a look at hybrid vs diesel SUVs, though. I think that, adjusted for size differences, the hybrid SUVs clearly have better combined mpg than the GL diesel.
1. overall market is bad, and it's likely to last until next spring.
2. Toyota's September '06 sales is best ever and it's just hard to top that.
Camry's sales is UP 9% despite the new Accord hitting the market. Toyota will sell 200K Tundras this year as they predicted and it has overtaken GMC Sierra in sales number. RAV4 is UP 29% last month so I don't think Toyota is too worry about the CR-V. The ES350 continues to sell well and LS460/600hL combined for 2,918 units (196 of those are LS600hL) and that's UP 237.9% from last year. How many S-class did MB sell last month?
All these are bright spots no matter how you slice it.
Here are the numbers:
LS year to date: 26350 units (that's 2927 units per month)
September '07 LS: 2918 units
26350 + (2927 + 2918) / 2 x 3 = 35117
I guess it's still not too late to back out if Doc agrees
We, Germancarfans, can be as bothering as a swarm of bees.
Jose
You know who always says that, don't you Tag?
Yes you do.
DrFill
Let it burn. :surprise:
That doesn't count, doh! London Times is small potatoes. Who heard of them. Why I could......
DrFill
I don't even want to compare to what I was able to do 5-10 years ago, much less last year.
Brings up my point, Toyota only suffers when the economy is a factor. They've been on the upswing forever. Now they can't handle things all of the sudden? :confuse:
DrFill
The domestics of course get massacred when their products are EOL, unless they pull GM style tricks like dumping a bunch of cars on the fleets to inflate overall sales.
What I'm most curious to see is what happens to VW sales once their NA product focus starts kicking in, with the new "American style" Passat, the big four-door coupe, and yes, a new Phaeton. Will more people start cross shopping Passat with the biggies, or does VW risk just alienating its core customers? Who's going to buy the Phaeton and the VW answer to the CLS this time, and why would they want a VW over an A7 or A8?
Home team? :surprise:
Who won :confuse:
The Mets ?
The Lexus GS450H? :sick:
Nope and nope again.
Pick the right team Doc and you will spare yourself a lot of aggravation especially when the GS450H season has hardly even begun. :P
Team Europe(Dieseland): 0
DrFill
I never said the Camry had problems moving did I? I said is going to "remain the sales king for some time to come".
Are you serious about the RAV-4 not being worried about the CR-V? Toyota would love to put in those RAV-4 ads that the it is "the number one SUV in the USA".
The 600hL sold 196, eh? Is this the way to get to 2k units anually? Probably not.
How did the S-Class get into the equation? I don't own an S-Class nor will I have a heart attack if it isn't the best in sales in it's class. But I just as well as many others know it's the best and most premiere car in it's class, hands down.
Facts? I will give you some facts. Performance cars are not solely about acceleration . BMW historically were laggards in terms of 0-xx times accelerations. Much cheaper Chrysler and Ford models had better accelerations figures than many BMW models. BMW has a tradition of making performance benchmark cars despite its relatively low acceleration times. Does that sound like a contradiction. Apparently it is not.
Maybe this will help clarify what I am really trying to say:
However, when all the ponies and volts are online, the 450h is capable of respectable haste. Those electric motors and batteries add up at the scales — at 4183 pounds, the Lexus was the heaviest in a hefty foursome, 303 pounds heavier than the GS430 we tested in May 2005 — but for all that it sprinted to 60 mph in 5.5 seconds and covered the quarter-mile in 14.1 seconds at 103 mph. This was a shade quicker than the M45, as well as the GS430, and more important, the 450h posted the best 30-to-50 and 50-to-70 times in the group, performance that made it impressive in back-road passing maneuvers. And reinforcing its hybridity, it rang up the best real-world fuel economy: 20 mpg over the course of our 650-mile ramble, 3 mpg better than the next-best BMW and Benz.
So what’s the problem? In a word, dynamics. Dismal dynamics. The GS450h’s logbook was full of praise for its smooth deportment and quiet cruising on freeway stretches. But on the Hocking Hills byways it was a different story. The total absence of feel in the electric power steering reminded one tester of an early-’80s Lincoln Town Car. In active driving, the continuously variable transmission never stopped hunting, and in league with the waxing and waning of the power system, it created a sonorous racket described by another chronicler as “somewhere between a gas turbine and a vacuum cleaner.”
The absence of steering feel made it tricky to position the Lexus for hard cornering, and its mass didn’t help, either in transient response or braking. The GS450h was only 101 pounds north of the M45, the next-heaviest car here, but it felt heavy, something reflected in the longest braking distances in this group.
In the end, the GS450h doesn’t strike us as a Tom T. Hall kind of faster horse. It’s smooth, it’s meticulously crafted, it’s packed with technology, and it may reflect the future of the automobile. But soul is conspicuous only by its absence here.
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Dieseland:1
I second that. Although I do not truly want a SUV, I believe that the RX 400h is a more convincing high-efficiency luxury vehicle value overall than either the GS 450h or MB 320BT are at present and that is the vehicle that I would choose between the 3 - even when MB finally introduces a 50-state legal MB 320BT.
Adjusting the fueleconomy.gov calculator to a 80/20 city/highway mix and 9,000 miles per year, it is estimated that I would get 27 MPG combined in a RX 400h 2WD, 24 MPG in the MB 320BT, and 23 MPG in the GS 450h - although there is not even a $200 price difference in annual fuel costs between any of the vehicles.
I achieved 29 MPG by driving the vehicle in a way that maximizes fuel economy for hybrid vehicles.
My RX 400h 2WD loaner had every option (including genuine leather
The Lexus hybrids also have an 8 yr/100,000 mile warranty for all of the hybrid components (including the BATTERY), whereas the MB 320 diesel engine is only covered for 4yrs or 50,000 miles.
I don't remember comparing the GS450h to preium sports sedans.
And the Infiniti won the comparison anyway!
It's still 1-0. :P
We should get another point, if we factor in your rather desperate foul ball!
Maybe it's 0-2?
DrFill
Maybe the Germans will should the Japanese how it's done?
The IS was a decent stab at a sports sedan, but it was no 3-series.
We'll see what they have to offer in a couple of years.
DrFill
An unpaid BMW sales advisor :confuse:
I guess that's why I get such disrespect from BMW Services :sick:
A home run and you fell asleep--inexcusable :mad:
Its all about driving dynmaics. PERIOD!
The driving dynamics of a diesel and non-diesel BMWs are what makes BMWs benchmark cars. Car and Drive praised the hyrid GS acceleration figures they got and at the same time scolded the GS for its lack of driving dynamics.
I think I can see myself in a 2014 S-Class DiesOtto (gasoline) hybrid.
Not everybody in this class wants a sports sedan, either. :surprise:
I have a little nugget that could help your Met-like team, but now you get no help from me.
DrFill
Who the heck ever said DiesOtto is a diesel?
And what is a germancarfan anyways? Sound like someone from the 60s and 70s who called himself a Buick man and only bought Buicks.
This war is not defined by national borders but by drivetrain technologies, luxuries and performance preferences. Nationalism is best in creating wars so instead why dont we just focus on car features instead . Peace!
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
OK maybe my comment was over-reaching, because I can't know what any paricular person was thinking when he ran across the word "DiesOtto", and whether he assumed because of the name and the high efficiency, that it must be based on diesel. I apologize to anyone that might have been offended.
Hey, I did not know that the CR-V was a diesel and made in Germany!!
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
OK, lets talk about cars and carts.
Jose
(Just kidding.)
You do know how to multiply right?
196 x 12 = 2352.
If I am not mistaken, September '07 is the first month that the LS600hL was on the market. Looks to me that it got off a great start.
PS. Still holding your ground on Lexus won't sell over 35K LS this calender year?
Which I think would be a function of the anemic mpg+performance gain (vs the LS460L), loss of trunk space, and high price.
Yep - exactly. I will be the first to acknowledge that the MB E320BT is notably more balanced and cohesive(ride/handling/steering/braking) than the Lexus GS 450h and is more successful overall as a midsize luxury performance sedan and prestige vehicle.
However, it should be clear that the Lexus Hybrid Drive can more than hold its own versus the Mercedes BlueTec diesel when looking at price, acceleration, emissions, and fuel economy.
The debate/discussion is good and interesting.
Weirder things have happened. :P
I think it was you who had pointed this point out first.
Toyota, which pioneered the industry-leading, 50-miles-per-gallon Prius hybrid, has joined with the Big Three U.S. automakers in lobbying against the tougher mileage standards in the Senate version of the draft energy bill.
Now why would Toyota, which has used the Prius to brand itself as the greenest car company, pull such a stunt? Is it because Toyota wants to slow down innovation in Detroit on more energy efficient vehicles, which Toyota already dominates, while also keeping mileage room to build giant pickup trucks, like the Toyota Tundra, at the gas-guzzler end of the U.S. market?
“Toyota wants to keep its green halo and beat G.M. in the big trucks, too,” said Deron Lovaas, vehicles expert at the Natural Resources Defense Council.
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If that was to be an insult, then right back at you if you believe that the LS600hL will sell 196 cars a month.
The car was new last month and sales are for sure to take a nosedive there after.