Luxury Lounge

tagman

Nice post Dewey...

Hybrids - 1
Diesels - 3


TagMan

anthonyp

Howard----That was a bit of good luck indeed...Now be careful for the next two bad luck things...I have to run the gauntlet tomorrow--going back to Charleston......I think I understand your logic and it makes sense...A simple question, with a lease, do you pay intrest on the entire amount, or only on the part that is not the residual value?? and another one---why can`t you trade early if it is the same type of car, and dealer?? Thanks Tony

hpowders

Well, actually, I don't feel I was doing anything wrong, Tony! In fact I felt harrassed and embarrassed at being stopped and lectured that I was violating an antiquated speed limit that hardly anybody adheres to!

Interest is the sum of residual value plus negotiated purchase price multiplied by the money factor.

I'm sure I could turn the vehicle in at this point but that would give the dealer the upper hand with the next lease. In other words, for doing me this favor, he would dictate the terms of the next lease to me instead of the other way around... and it wouldn't be pretty!!!

I got the 545i for only 2.4% interest, T. I am content to wait it out. The next lease will be had on my terms, not his. :shades:

syswei

Thanks for the article. In addition to the things you quoted, I found the following interesting:

some diesel critics believe that the cost of the equipment to clean up diesel's emissions will bring the premium for clean-diesel cars close to that of a hybrid, especially in smaller models....
Yes, the diesels are coming, but their success is not guaranteed. As Lutz said in his corporate video blog: "Are buyers of smaller cars actually going to pay a $4,000 to $5,000 premium to get a diesel engine?"

This recalls an old C&D article here

tagman

The current resale for older VWs, as an example, that are diesel powered is many thousands higher than gas counterparts. So... even if the upfront costs are higher (and I doubt they would be as much of a premium as you are suggesting), the resale will be so much better, unlike hybrids whose aging process ultimately gets them closer and closer to the end of their battery life, and costly replacements... It's a totally opposite experience. Older hybrids will face the battery challenge while older diesels will command resale premiums.

hybrids - 1
diesels - 4

(just kidding on the score thing... I'll drop it henceforth)



TagMan

tagman

I want to thank everyone who was involved in the heated hybrid vs. diesel discussion that went on at some length. It made me realize even more than ever that the upcoming diesels are a great choice.

I don't want ANY battery packs in my car. I don't even want an electric car... at least not yet. I want one single simple (by today's standards) engine, and I want it to be fuel efficient. If it's a new generation of gas engine, like the diesotto (or whatever it's called), then that's fine. If it's a diesel than that's fine. But the typical gas sucking ICE hooked up to some electric motors and batteries just isn't my cup of tea. I don't want the bunch of extra weight and space-robbing batteries that I know will one day wear out anyway, or potentially have some sort of safety issue.

Bring on the new diesels. Americans are more ready than ever, and man, are folks like the Doc going to be surprised. Even Toyota is going to be surprised. They better get their Isuzu division all ready, cause they'll be needing to produce diesels as fast as they can make them.

Honda understands this and will be ready. BMW will be a leader in the diesel arena, as will Audi, Mercedes, and Volkswagen.

Houdini - you may think this is more spin, like you usually do when I post, but let me assure you that I am confident of what I am posting.

Also, Houdini, let me tell you that my recent post about Toyota's efforts to lobby against stricter gas mileage requrements and stricter emissions is absolute fact... It was no spin. You can look it up yourself. They are an active member of the Dealer's Alliance, and you should check out sometime just what that alliance stands for... and it's not all good, sorry to say.

Blkhemi - you definately understand the situation and you need to post some more, brother.

Dewey, you are the best poster here at posting articles that you have researched or run across on almost a daily basis.

Lexusguy - quite possibly the most knowledgable poster here.

I'm not going to go down the entire list of posters, but you guys know where you stand. Remember, when it came down to the final voting of your true preferences, the European votes were overwhelming against the Japanese votes, by a landslide.

And, I believe the Europeans are going to deliver the diesels in greater numbers... (as well as play the hybrid game at the same time... good European multi-tasking. LOL.)

Soon, you are going to lose a lot of sleep, Doc.

TagMan

louiswei

All I know is that there are way more hybrid cars on the road right now (US I mean) than diesel. When all the clean diesels arrived and proved that they are worthy competitors then I'll give credit when credit is due.

Until that has happened, these are all vapor ware (in US) talks.

tagman

Hybrids have been around for many years already! Where's the big surprise that there are more of them on the road by now. JD Power's study should be a reasonable enough glimpse into what lies ahead. Call it vaporware if that makes you feel better, but if there was no merit in looking at what to expect, then JD Powers and others wouldn' waste their time. But that information about what to expect is actually quite valuable.

TagMan

jlbl

Howard, I am waiting for a nice ticket though I am not fully assured it is coming. :confuse:

I drove on a two-lane interstate highway up to a mountain pass early in the morning last weekend. Speed limit was 75 mph. Nobody at sight. I was driving at about 99.5 mph. Then a Porsche Cayman appeared from nowhere and was just overtaking me when another car, apparently innocent, was going to enter into my lane in front of me from the acceleration lane. As this car was not braking/stopping to yield pass to the Porsche and myself, I flashed at it twice. Then the allegedly innocent car slowed down to yield pass. When I overtook it I discovered to my horror it was a disguised Traffic Police car with two smiling cops inside. I was not pulled by them, yet I am still waiting for my ticket. But, who knows, may be the cops were ashamed by their bad maneuver. :surprise:
:sick:
Jose

jlbl

Of the two cars in my family, one is of our own (530d) and the other rented (gas Mini Cooper). We got both in 2004. The Bimmer could possibly be with us a total of 8-10 years, in order to take profit of it. The Mini will be for 5 years, that is, until 2009. Then it could be possibly replaced by a Bimmer Series 1. Too early however to be sure of it or to say which sort of engine or technology will have.

Jose

lexusguy

I took a quick look at the M the other day and sad to say I still don't really like it. I really did not like the interior because of the "blondish" wood trim. Very ugly. Looked like ply wood.

I like the M with wood and tan leather better than the interiors in the GS, RL, 5, E, and STS, and about the same as the S80 and A6 interiors. I wish they offered it with piano black trim as in the JDM Fuga, but the wood isn't bad. The XF interior certainly seems "interesting", but I have to actually sit in one before I can make really make up my mind about it.

lexusguy

Doesn't seem to have a lot to do with BMW directly. Most of Germany's automakers were involved with the German war machine. BMW made aircraft engines, and Maybach made Panzer engines. Dr. Porsche created the "peoples car" for Hitler. I think only Auto Union wasn't involved.

syswei

I really get a good chuckle when a germancarfan trots out reliability to buttress his arguments.

1. True, the older-tech diesels are considered reliable. They were also made back when MB was known for reliable products, making "bullet-proof" cars. But what about modern, clean diesels? From the "new" MB?

2. Remember, when you get a E320 Bluetec or other German diesel, you get all the reliability, or lack thereof, of a German car.

3. Let's examine the evidence:

JDP IQS for "Powertrain Quality - Mechanical"

2006 E320 Bluetec: 2.5 stars
2007 E320 Bluetec: 3.5 stars source
2007 GS450h: 4.5 stars source
2007 Prius: 4.5 stars source

Note that JDP doesn't give out 1-star ratings, so in effect the scale is 2 to 5 stars, 5 being best.

What about longer term reliability?

JDP VDS for "Powertrain Dependability" (2004 model year cars)

2007 Prius: 5 stars source

I can't find VDS data for the MB CDIs, so I assume they weren't around, at least in significant numbers, in 2004.

I will also note that the Prius was introduced more than 10 years ago in Japan. Care to dig up any horror stories about 90s vintage Prius, including the batteries?

houdini1

Your endless rants against Toyota/Lexus are usually nothing but spin, and, bottom line, they are all because of one indisputable fact that you just can't seem to accept.

The Lexus LS is, and has been numero uno here in the U.S. since it was introduced. SPIN THAT! :shades:

atlas7

Come on guys...Why don't just call this the [non-permissible content removed] board? Just way too many posts touting real or imagined German superiority. All of these cars are great cars, but somehow, the WORLD's most successful car company TOYOTA/Lexus gets no credit. Hybrid get's no respect, Lexus gets no respect. All of this talk about "futures" and how the Germans will rule the world. TOYOTA/Lexus has a very bright future, trust me on that! People vote with their pocketbooks and TOYOTA/Lexus is printing money. All of this conjecture and spin, look at the results...TOYOTA/Lexus is the most successful car company on the planet...Yeah, yeah, I am waiting for all of the usual bs from the German zealots, "well that depends on your definition of successful" or some other spin to try to discredit TOYOTA/Lexus. How can anyone deny Lexus accomplishment in the US, the worlds largest and most lucrative car market. Lexus comes in and competes at the highest end of the market and walks away with the prize,year after year, #1 Luxury brand in the US. THAT IS ABSOLUTELY AMAZING!!!

drfill

Sorry, Tag.

My concept, my scoreboard. No gooning allowed. :confuse:

DrFill

drfill

Quite a stretch. A forecast for 8 years from now?

Can JD Power tell me if it will be sunny and 68 degrees on October 5th, 2015?

Or will the Nuclear Winter make for a less-rosey forecast? :sick:

A shot in the dark (literally) at southe-sayin', but I'll give you a point for creativity.

Hybrids - 1

Diesels - 1

Let's keep this legitimate, and have some tangible evidence of value, not hopes and dreams, k?

DrFill

lexusguy

How much do we hear about what is happening with JDM cars in the JD market at all? The Escape hybrid taxis have already proven that hybrids can do 150k+ worth of hard driving without issue, which is worst case scenario when it comes to a typical ownership cycle. I don't think hybrids are going to blow up when they get too old or anything like that. I would think they would act like any other device that uses NiMH batteries, over extended time, the batteries will steadily lose power and the ability to hold a charge, the car will need to use the gas engine more and more, and mileage will go down until the battery is replaced.

syswei

The Escape hybrid taxis have already proven that hybrids can do 150k+ worth of hard driving without issue, which is worst case scenario when it comes to a typical ownership cycle.

A good point, I wasn't aware of that tidbit. It would be interesting if we knew how much of the original battery capacity and mpg performance remains after 150k miles, but that would require an expensive study by Ford.

150k in a short period of time isn't typical of normal consumer use, though. By the time a normal consumer clocks 150k miles on a 2007 hybrid, battery prices will probably be considerably lower than they are now.

hpowders

My wife believes she talked the trooper out of it, but from his approach, he really didn't want to ticket me. He seemed to be almost apologetic and was looking for any excuse I would give him to let me go on my way with just a warning.

He knew:

1. I have a perfect driving record over the last 10 years.

2. Nobody here with the exception of student drivers adheres to 70mph on the highway. Going 85 here is practically "normal."

3. I wasn't driving recklessly. Fast is not synonymous with reckless.

When my wife continues to take credit for getting me out of the situation, I will respond to her with the inter-planetary phrase spoken by husbands everywhere throughout the Milky Way galaxy:

"Yes, dear."

tagman

That's not the way it works Doc.

You remind me of the guy that says "the idea and prediction of global warming is a hoax!" during a cold snap when it's colder than it's supposed to be outside.

He pays no attention to the global average temperature that keeps rising.

So, if you want to put the blinders on and act like diesels are not in the beginning of a very big ascention here in North America, go right ahead... but that doesn't change the fact that it's going to happen, and JD Powers' survey just goes to prove it, whether you want to believe it or not.

TagMan

hpowders

I wouldn't buy a BMW because starting in year 5, the maintenance costs get pretty expensive. Who makes these BMW parts, Tiffany's? :surprise:

So, I would rather lease short-term and let the maintenance costs be somebody else's headache.

PS: Notice, I didn't say "repairs." BMWs built today are virtually bulletproof.

tagman

I remember the vote when European cars blew away the Japanese cars in our forum member's preference.

Let's see what a hybrid vs. diesel vote would look like.

This is for ALL FORUM MEMBERS:

If you were to choose between a hybrid vehicle or a clean diesel vehicle of similar price and style, which powertrain itself would you prefer? Gas-Hybrid or Clean-Diesel?

To keep it focused, let's not introduce diesel hybrids or diesotto or anything like that for now.

I think we can predict some of the votes, but it should prove very interesting no matter what the outcome.

I'll start...

I vote for... gosh let me think for a while ...

My preference would be clean DIESEL powertrain.

So, that starts us all off at

Diesel = 1
Hybrid = 0

Let's do this in the spirit of fun and interest, like we did before.

So, cast your votes!!

TagMan

hpowders

I hope to drive one of those marvelous BMW diesels before my current lease runs out.

I have not and never will drive a hybrid.

Diesel is the future. They will render hybrids obsolete.

My vote is for diesel.

As per Florida custom, I will vote again just before poll-closing time. :shades:

syswei

I'd buy a large luxury diesel sedan if it were awd and available in CT and adequately reliable.

I'd buy a large luxury hybrid sedan if it had good trunk space and a modest price premium.

I'd buy a large luxury diesel SUV if it were awd and available in CT and adequately reliable.

I'd buy a large luxury hybrid SUV if there were any from reliable companies.

Since none of the above exist, I abstain. Neither diesel nor hybrid is ready FOR ME in MY2008.

tagman

Thank you Mr. H....

We'll use your second vote later this evening! (just kidding... for those that don't remember I kept a very accurate count on the last vote.)

So far... for powertrain preference on a similar vehicle at a similar price...

DIESEL = 2
HYBRID = 0

TagMan

tagman

Some of those vehicles do already exist, but you do not have to vote if you don't want to.
TagMan

hpowders

We have a fairly intelligent group here. Should be a diesel landslide. :shades:

syswei

No they don't exist.

bristol2

Man, do you enjoy poking up trouble!

Until a hybrid drive offers real mileage improvements at a speed over 40mph, I vote DIESEL all the way!

drfill

Just take MY IDEA! :mad:

You remind me of the guy who takes other people's ideas! :lemon:

The people in the cities would vote for Hybrids, to combat stop-and-go traffic. The highway drivers living in the boonies should go for the highway benefits of diesel power.

Coincidentally, Democrats tend to rule the cities, Republican vote big in the country.

DrFill

pat

a) I thought you were going to stop scorekeeping and b) why does this debate have to be adversarial? Scorekeeping creates a divisive environment by definition.

syswei

a) I thought you were going to stop scorekeeping and b) why does this debate have to be adversarial? Scorekeeping creates a divisive environment by definition.

I think the whole poll idea is a nonstarter anyway. All it does is show the preferences of the limited number of people on this board. Same poll on a different board might get very different results.

hpowders

why I choose to live in the country. :shades:

tagman

Doc's original scorekeeping was a subjective view that HE decided how the points were administered. I was goofing with that system the whole time, and decided to not keep that kind of score.

This, however isn't decided by one individual who dictates the outcome. This is a vote by the posters themselves...

QUITE a difference.

If you recall, the outcome of the last "vote" (Euro vs. Japanese) resulted in a lot of interesting posts, and most posters complimented the whole process because it was fun, interesting , and everyone kept it civil.

As long as this stays in the same spirit of fun and interest, it would be interesting to see if diesel, which is very new and very limited in its current availability, has any chance against hybrids, which have been around for many years already.

TagMan

pat

If people want to go along, whatever. I still don't see the sense in dividing people up. Unlike your other poll, this one doesn't seem to me to be a clear-cut either-or call and I don't see the need to - as I said - create this divisiveness.

tagman

your idea was for YOU to decide how to distribute the score. This is different and is up to the posters to make a clear choice that is not subjectively filtered through you, me, or anyone at all.

BTW, diesels can be just as significant in the city if performance is considered. If mileage is the ONLY consideration, then hybrids would be a good choice. If you like to maneuver in traffic with a car that has better driving dynamics, and if you are one of those guys that likes to get the head start at the green light, then diesel could be a good choice for city driving. It depends upon each person's own preferences... and that's what we will discover with a vote by the posters themselves, not by your interpretation (or mine, either).

TagMan

tagman

True. But this board is about all kinds of cars. Powertrain preferences might be interesting. If you are not interested, that's OK. No worries.

TagMan

tagman

Hey bristol2, thanks for voting.

That puts the preference for alternative powertrain choice on a similar vehicle with a similar price at...

DIESEL = 3
HYBRID = 0

TagMan

jlbl

My vote on the preference for alternative powertrain choice on a similar vehicle with a similar price goes to...

Diesel

(What else could be! I am very satisfied with my d, I drive it 75% on roads, and, on the other hand, I need all my trunk space and even a bit more!)

Jose
PS: I understand this poll is serious but well humored :shades:

tagman

Thank you, jlbl.

Moving right along...

DIESEL = 4
HYBRID = 0

TM

esf

DIESEL. Not even a decision. Better performance, better efficiency.

'06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG • '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet • '04 Lexus RX330

tagman

OK, esf... your vote is in.

Your vote now puts the preference for alternative powertrain choice on a similar vehicle with a similar price at...

DIESEL = 5
HYBRID = 0

Thanks for your participation!

TagMan

drfill

I don't need to filter anything. All I asked is that you have some type of substance to your post, not build things based on a perfect-world system.

Anything that mentioned diesel, you were definitely throwing in as a glowing endorsement, so don't give me some holier-than-thou garbage!

I know German fnas outnumber Japanese fans 3-to-1, always has, for years. So I know where the vote goes before we start. I just ask for a little justification, a little fact, before the diesel gets knighted, if that's alright

Do what you want, Tag. I'd appreciate a little respect and consistentcy on your part, that's all. :confuse:

DrFill

tagman

WOW! Great timing for a 4 to 5 hour database update at Edmunds!

Anyway...

Doc...

Hybrids have gotten incredible credit with recent posts here from Eurocar fans as well as Japanese car fans. This isn't about European or Japanese cars.

It's about the powertrain. European manufacturers are going to be releasing hybrids and Japanese are going to be releasing diesels. So... it's a preference not based upon manufacturer.

Do you really think you need more respect from me? Goodness, I often single you out as the best representative for Japanese or Toyota/Lexus... not to be disrespectful, but respectful. I have always felt comfortable to joke with you and share differences of opinion.

You are a cool guy and I have no issue with you at all!

There is nothing wrong with this vote. It is not biased in any way I know of.

And let me assure you that if you will review some of the posts these past weeks, you will see more credit given to hybrids than has been given in a very long time.

Credit where credit is due. The hybrid technology certainly has its place, and so far it has been the primary alternative with much less diesel offerings in the marketplace, which gives it a huge advantage in perception and recognition. Yet, in spite of the many years of successful hybrid marketing by the worlds largest automaker, I want to make the point that there is a sizeable potential demand for the diesel alternative that is larger than I believe you realize.

It's not about which is better. I don't think we can definatively answer that question, at least not at the present time, nor should we perhaps. We can debate and argue that seperately, as we have done in the past.

"I just ask for a little justification, a little fact, before the diesel gets knighted, if that's alright"

This is all about individual PREFERENCE, not which technology is better. So, let me respectfully make that clear. A person's preference doesn't require justification. If we were arguing which technology is better, that would be different, and some facts and justification would make sense.

On a seperate note, you and I, and all the others on this forum can give credits and criticisms to any and all powertrains and vehicle components. We can discuss the pros and cons of hybrids, diesels, types of transmissions, types of user interfaces in the car's interiors, tires, body styles, reliability statistics, fuel-economy, manufacturer's business plans, driving dynamics, vehicle comparisons, and a host of other topics.

Dewey often introduces an article that talks about a developing technology, or a business perspective, and many posters discuss their personal experiences with certain vehicles, or their future buying plans.

If I make myself clear here, Doc, I am trying to say that taking a vote to determine our preferences is no threat here to the integrity of our discussions, and there is no disrespect aimed at you in any way whatsoever.

Let's make sure we give credit where it is due, and respect each other's opinions, as different as they may sometimes be.

Again, Doc, I appreciate you and your posts, and have the highest regard and respect for you and your opinions. In fact, I enjoy them a lot!

I do not know how to be any clearer than that!

TagMan

pat

that we are not here to discuss each other. Let's drop this line of conversation, please.

tagman

Pat,
Would you like to delete the post? I have no objection if you think it is not appropriate.
TagMan

pat

I'm talking to everyone, not just you. And if I had thought that any post should have been deleted, trust me, I would have done exactly that, whether you had an "objection" or not.

tagman

point well made!
TM

tagman

made the result so far for "alternative powertrain preference in a similar vehicle at a similar price"...

DIESEL = 5
HYBRID = 0

Now that Edmunds is back online, we can see where it goes from here.

TagMan