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Comments
The E320BT w/AdBlue is cleaner than any gas engine offered in it's class. Source: Pop. Mechanics, MBUSA, etc..
The Prius has not been on the road unscathed with problems. Intermitent stalling issues, loss of steering caused problems for some '04 Prius' . But I will admit it has been relatively unproblematic.
The Yankees will be interested, if they don't make the World Series.
DrFill
The GS450h: $54,900
That's quite a bit less than $8,000! :lemon:
I think the $3400 is worth the difference in public perception! Hybrids are cool. Diesels, not so much.
DrFill
DrFill
Also, I don't think there are any cars that are without any problems but thank you for acknowledge that it has been relatively unproblemic.
Chrysler was down 5% on weak demand for it's truck products, although the car sales remain positive.
Honda was up 9% on the back of the redesigned Accord and the ever popular CR-V.
Nissan was up 7% with the Altima selling briskly and new Rogue coming out.
GM rose slightly with strong demand for the full-size GMT900 trucks and the new Lambda-platformed crossovers. The new Cadillac CTS sales were 73% greater than one year ago.
But Toyota? For the 3rd straight month, the automaker has posted declines in over all sales(-%4). Trucks and cars are down across the board. One Toyota exec says that it was tough to go against last Sept numbers as that was the best September for the company.
What I have to say to that is the same thing I said last Sept: You can't get too big, too fast. I don't think it was Toyota's intention to overtake GM as the sales leader purposefully, but now it is exposed to what comes with that role. And this is not to say Toyota doesn't deserve it. They do, IMO. They have great product out now that just about everybody can find something they like on the lot. But the problem is that as fast as they produce the product, some other company out-does them. The new Accord for sure scares a many Toyota execs at night. As good as the Tundra is, that persistant Silverado just moves it to the side. The CR-V will keep the otherwise great RAV-4 pent down. They have the great new Highlander(I like it), but the new Pilot is knocking on it's back door.
And all of these are problems for the company, as well as they are for any company, no matter how you slice it.
Key word: Will
Has not happened and I'm willing to place a gentlemen's wager that it won't eclipse 35k.
As far as the GS goes, the BMW 335d and quite likely even the E320BT will take it on at a red light. Much more fun to drive when torque is so high.
TagMan
That I totally agree with, and its one reason I'm not going to buy a hybrid sedan soon.
It is cleaner than the 450h(and no that is not a typo).
On the fueleconomy.gov site, the GS400h puts out less greenhouse gasses than the E320BT. Particulate data isn't available for the E320BT.
It is way less complex, hence much more less likely to develop reliablility problems.
But what reliability do you start out with in an ICE GS, before adding the hybrid powertrain? This may be the first time I've seen someone try to support MB by using a reliability arguement! BTW the GS450h has a 2-year and 20k mile advantage in its drivetrain warranty as compard to the E320BT.
And given the fact that it "only" has 215hp to work with here and still able to propel the relatively substantial E-Class to 60 in under 7 seconds and save you 8 grand in the bank over the GS is more than enough reason to take the hit on "performance" all the while enjoying the E320's 13mpg advantage over that car.
Let's repeat the facts:
EPA estimates:
E320 Bluetec 26 mpg
GS450h 23 mpg
C&D tests 0-60:
E320 Bluetec 6.8 sec
GS450h 5.5 sec
That looks like a 3 mpg difference to me (12% worse for the GS), while the 0-60 times favor the GS by 1.3 sec (24%).
If you want to use some other mpg figure than EPA's for the E320, then use a like mpg figure for the GS, over the same course, driven the same way as the E320 (ideally, nose-to-tail). Otherwise, use apples to apples numbers like EPA's.
$8k price difference? Check your facts. The base price difference is $3000. But at the base price the E320BT lacks some things that the base GS450h has at its base price: real leather seats instead of "MB Tex", electrochromic side mirrors, active suspension, 18" wheels, power rear sunshade, front heated/ventilated seats, longer warranty....I could go on but I think the point is made.
I guarantee Lexus will sell 35k this year!
Betting against Lexus has bankrupted many a man......
Mercedes will do 25k in the S-class, that's no small potatoes.
DrFill
EPA estimates:
E320 Bluetec 26 mpg
GS450h 23 mpg
C&D tests 0-60:
E320 Bluetec 6.8 sec
GS450h 5.5 sec
Not a slam dunk win for Bluetec, imho. Especially not for performance-leaning enthusiasts.
______
Well we've been here before with type of conversation but what the heck.
You have to keep in mind that to enthusiasts, performance pertains to two things--handling and power--and with many, not all, the handling comes first. That leaves hybrids and Lexus out because of weight, suspension and steering.
As far as diesel performance, it's the low end torque, early acceleration that is appealing. After that, it's a conventional package with simpler, sinewy mechanicals. The total hybrid package of weight, numb steering, compromised space and drivetrain complexity negates any power benefits of the GS450h in the minds of most. No one is going to buy the E320 Bluetec for performance anyway, although 6.8 isn't too shabby for someone who just needs a nice mid-range luxury car.
The GS450h has a nice drivetrain. But it is not a well-rounded buy. It's like hiring a gardener who will only cut your lawn. You need him to weed the beds, clean the gutters, trim the bushes and, in my case, excavate the trench to repair the broken water main among other things.
As you may recall, I was impressed with the GS450h drivetrain when I drove it. (Wow, that was last year at this time... how time flies.) But if it ever came down to adding up the benefits, I wouldn't be able to pull the trigger on it. Even the luxury is compromised. It's a one-trick pony and the auto market is a 3-ring circus.
By the way, I just remembered something. How did you ever make out with the Noreaster and flooding this past Spring?
Lincoln LS. There was a very active LS board here on Edmunds back when the car was new. Edmunds was newer then, too, and there was a Lincoln-sponsored event which came to be known as LS Mania which involved some pylon timed events for the participants & an opportunity for the enthusiasts to meet & talk to the LS engineering & marketing team. Edmunds participated, and I still have the baseball cap. I was told that the Edmunds person present was the world-renowned "Pat."
Apparently not.
Sadly, Edmunds and the Lincoln LS enthusiasts came to a parting of the ways not too long after that, for (let's just say) a variety of reasons.
Sorry for the confusion.
DrFill
No damage or evidence of wetness when we got back from vacation, thanks.
I'm not totally against diesels, btw, and would consider one myself. But I do object when people here sometimes throw out numbers that are plain wrong.
The E320BT isn't amazingly fast in terms of 0-60, but its also the only diesel LPS we have in the states right now. The GS450h costs $10K more than the 350, is marginally faster, and gets marginally better fuel economy. For that you must give up the 350's already very limited handling abilities, and its already very limited trunk space.
In the UK, the A6 3.0TDi costs $2,000 LESS than the 3.2FSI! The performance sacrifice for the sake of fuel economy is zero, zip, zilch. 0-60 times are absolutely identical between the two Quattro tiptronic equipped cars. Trunk space is of course also identical. Which seems like the better deal? $10K for a 2 or 3mpg boost and a few ticks quicker to 60, or they pay you $2,000 for a more substantial mpg boost, with no sacrifice on your part whatsoever.
Wouldn't it make more sense to just buy a GS350, take the badge off, and buy a "450h" badge from a Lexus parts store? That way you can still have all the "I'm a hybrid driver" bragging rights, which are ultimately all you really get with the 450h anyway. Make your friends think you're super cool, and put more than one bag at a time in the trunk. Its a win win!
First off, on the reliability story, we all know on average MB's are not as reliable as their Lexus counterparts. But factoring in electric motors, batteries(unknown longevity), regenerative braking, etc as opposed to a simple front engine/RWD layout, you will have problems. And hence the word "complex" in the sentence. And at last check, the new S-Class seems to be just as reliable as the LS, so yes, I'll be the first to use an "MB as a reliability arguement against Lexus".
As for the cleanliness of the BT, at 5ppm, the only thing that even comes close will be the unreleased hydrogen vehicles that release only water vapor. It emits only .29pounds/mile co2 into the atmosphere, as oppose to the usual .60 to 1.00 for your conventional gas ICE. There is your support for how clean it is.
As for real world mileage, most owners are reporting upwards of 35-40mpg hwy and 22-25 city, as oppose those dismal numbers for the hybrid, particularly compared to those of the conventional 3.5 V-6.
As for pricing, yes MSRP differences are roughly 3k. However it grows significantly on average transactions.
LS' that is, right?
"Betting against Lexus has bankrupted many a man..."
Yes that is true. But then Lexus hired those same men to design the GS450h, LS600hL, and, um, SC430, eh? I luv this thread!
And yes, selling 25k cars with an average transaction price of $98k is really no small potatoes
Yes they me be number 1, but for how long with dwindling sales? That almighty Tundra is having probs moving, even with 3k on the hood in these neck of the woods. Cars weren't spectacular either.
You're starting to sound like Bill Ford. "We're down now, but we'll be back lickety-split."
Well we all know how that went. I am totally not saying that this will happen to Toyota, but in it's crusade to overtake GM, quality slipped and Toyota was very un-Toyotalike.
I know you and a few others are sure to disagree, but the facts are there. And Doc by all means, we need for you to sell more cars for Pete's Sake.
I think that was the as tested price in the very favorable article that tagman posted earlier.
Also keep in mind that, at least in my area, diesel is around $3.20 per gal and reg. is $2.57. so diesel is about 25% higher. The increased cost eats up a lot of the mpg advantage of diesel.
I agree with LG that the GS 350 would be the one to compare to the E320 bluetec.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
If you can get up ti 650 miles on one tank, wouldn't it be worth it and recoup to cost in less than half the time it takes to get the cost back off of the 450h over the 350.
Ok, taking price out of the equation, which would be the better buy?
The new C class with a diesel would be even better for me.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
TagMan
Yes I baught a a8 around the same time blkhemi got a w12 audi....I have thoroughly enjoyed the car, and have had only one small problem (mmi hangup) during the course of my ownership....The car is much more fun than the Lexus cars I have owned ever since Lexus started....The thing is the more expensive a car the larger the number when you calculate depreciation....The interior of the car is superb, but when compared to the Rolls, it pales..When compared to bmw it excells...wifes car 535xi is very comfortable--just as comfortable as the Audi---and as I really can`t enjoy a high hp car due to so much congeston, I think a different 5 series will save twenty thousand , and we can just swap on occasion for the change..Unfortunately the Lexus in my opinion isn`t a value anymore, and the larger Mercedes and Audi are also high priced...I`v been lucky to be able to have a variey of nice cars, but underneath I don`t like just spending a bunch of money that was hard to earn-- and keep--for something that has no real lasting value.....I`l probably forget all I say here when the time comes to do something--and just do it---Tony
First Ting: I am not a car salesman.
#2: If Toyota has a slow quarter, it has little to do with Toyota. We are in an economic downturn.
But Toyota has cut incentives over the last couple of months down to $800 a vehicle (average). About 1/4 of the domestics average.
When Toyota's YTD drops, then I'll say you're onto sumpin'. Not until then.
With Camry pushing 500k annually, Prius at over 180k, and Tundra will pass 200k, life is good at Toyota.
But Toyota is not a complacent company. They learn from history.
And the '09 Corolla next year will spark sales, and a new Seqioua won't hurt.
DrFill
The MB E320BT is NOT cleaner than the GS 450h. Air pollution and greenhouse gas emissions are NOT the same thing. Air pollution contributes to smog, acid rain, respiratory stress, and many other damaging environmental and health conditions. Greenhouse gas emissions contribute to the phenomenon of global warming that affects long-term climate change.
This acknowledgement on MBUSA's website is quite telling:
The 2008 E320 BLUETEC does not meet the emissions requirements of California, Connecticut, Maine, Massachusetts, New York, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, or Vermont and is not available in these states.
link title
By contrast, the GS 450h is a SULEV and is available for sale in ALL 50 states.
link title
Surprisingly, the EPA also gives the GS 450h a slightly better rating for greenhouse gas emissions (although they are essentially a wash): 8.0 tons per year for the GS 450h and 8.1 tons per year for the MB 320BT.
As Syswei pointed out, you can't compare real-world mileage for one vehicle (MB 320BT) and EPA mileage for the other (GS 450h) - choosing the best available for the Mercedes and the worst available for the Lexus. This is especially problematic because people who choose the MB E320BT over the excellent E350 are more likely to have done so due to its notably superior highway mileage versus that vehicle; the pool of MB E320BT drivers is very likely to spend more of their driving time on the highway than the average E-class buyer - bringing the E320BT's overall fuel economy up substantially.
At least 80% of my driving is done in the city at 40 MPH or less; it would make NO sense to compare my average MPG (18-20) to someone who spends 80% of their time on the highway and then claim that the other person's vehicle is more fuel-efficient than my own vehicle because they drive their vehicle in more fuel-efficient conditions. This is what you are doing by attempting to compare the real-world mileage of the MB 320BT to the GS 450h without taking into account differences in commuting patterns. The lone driver who posted fuel-economy estimates on the fueleconomy.gov website for the 2007 GS 450h only spends about 9% of their time on the highway. By contrast, 5 of the 6 drivers who posted fuel economy estimates for the 2007 MB 320BT on the fueleconomy.gov website spend at least 60% of their driving time on the highway. The E320BT is more fuel-efficient than the GS 450h, but only by 3 MPG in a 55/45 city/highway driving mix; those of us that spend much more of our time in the city are unlikely to even see that 3 MPG difference.
You also cannot use the base MSRP for the MB 320BT and then the average transaction price for the GS 450h - choosing the lowest figure available for the Mercedes and the highest figure available for the Lexus to come up with a $8000 price difference. What is the average transaction price of the MB 320BT? How much for a MB 320BT with real leather seating and HID headlights (standard features on the GS 450h)?
I can't say that I would purchase either vehicle (because I wouldn't), but I do like for accurate numbers to be posted in reference to these vehicles; differences of opinion over the desirability and merit of those vehicles are fine (even great) and keeping with the spirit of a public forum.
The final 50-state version of the BlueTec isn't complete yet, and thus can't be sold in all states. When it is complete, then I think it would be fair to compare the emissions. From what I understand, the hybrid will not do quite as well regarding greenhouse gases, but the diesel will not do quite as well regarding particulates.
To me, it's a silly argument, because at that point they should both be applauded for such a great achievement that our friends in Detroit years ago said couldn't be done.
And, in years to come, they will even get better.
One thing else... the comparison between diesel and hybrid is not a static situation. It is a dynamic situation... meaning that it is ever-changing. There will be models to come that will excel as diesels, and there will be models to come that will excel as hybrids. It will fluctuate and I suspect that the Toyota/Lexus hybrids will be the most successful while the Mercedes, Audi, VW, BMW, and Honda diesels will do very well.
Over the next few years, we will watch the evolution of alternative powertrains.
Personally, I have not been this excited about cars since I first learned to drive... or when I owned my first (and only) Ferrari!
If we are all honest and accurate, as you say, we will be able to give certain credits to the various technologies, and not claim that only one is the absolute best.
As I've said before, credit goes where credit is due.
Certainly, the new generation of diesels deserve a lot of credit as do the hybrid vehicles, and we can only expect them to get even better.
From a personal perspective only, I think it would be much more fun to drive a diesel due to its high torque... especially in the city where the potential for that sudden surge, due to extreme low-end torque can be kind of exhilerating... particularly at that occassional red-light-turn-green-light race, that none of us would ever dare to admit to.
TagMan
As I've said before, credit goes where credit is due.
Exactly! Both are great technologies and neither one is significantly better than the other.
I certainly like diesels, but hybrids provide the type of benefits that are more useful for my current driving conditions.
You might be surprised about the low-end torque of some hybrid vehicles. I had to lay off of the pedal in my RX 400h loaner this summer because it simply surged away from a standstill with barely a touch; the low-speed acceleration in the vehicle was exhilarating and completely unexpected.
Despite this, I still managed to achieve about 29 MPG overall during my time with the RX 400h - which is Corolla territory.
With you 100%, thanks for your well-written post.
As I have said many a time, in the medium term most of us will be buying diesel hybrids. I think most of us are arguing the merits of diesel vs hybrid because we enjoy arguing.
Unless E320BT buyers are all incredible cheapwads who don't care for real leather, etc., I suggest the opposite: the price difference narrows or even reverses when you look at "average transactions".
Just put real leather in a E320BT, and $1550 of the price gap is gone.
18" wheels rather than 16" (you guys are performance enthusiasts, right?): another $1300 (or more, depending on the wheel style)
Here is a more complete list of differences between a base GS450h and a base E320BT:
.........GS 450h...E320 Bluetec
Drivetrain 6 yr. / 70000 mi. 4 yr. / 50000 mi.
Rust 6 yr. / Unlimited mi. 4 yr. / 50000 mi.
Active Suspension Standard Not Available
Standard Wheels 18 x 8 in. 16 x 8.0 in.
Rear Window Sunshade Standard Optional
Upholstery Type leather leatherette
Driver Seat Heated Standard Optional
Driver Seat Ventilated Standard Not Available
Passenger Seat Heated Standard Optional
Passenger Seat Ventilated Standard Not Available
Auto-Dimming Outside Mirrors electrochromatic electrochromatic, driver only
Power Retractable Outside Mirrors Standard Not Available
Cruise Control on Steering Wheel Standard Not Available
Multi-function remote hands-free multi-function remote with keyless ignition multi-function remote
Knee airbags dual front Not Available
Adaptive Headlights Standard Optional
Xenon Headlights Standard Optional
Headlight Cleaners high pressure washers high pressure washers Standard Optional
Rear View Backup Camera Standard Not Available
Parking Assist rear parking sensors front and rear parking sensors Standard Optional
Cassette Standard Not Available
CD In-Dash 6 CD player single CD player
Radio Data System Standard Not Available
Wireless Data Link for Hands-free Phone Bluetooth Not Available
C&D Nov 2006:
2007 BMW 550i vs. 2007 Infiniti M45 Sport vs. 2007 Lexus GS450h vs. 2007 Mercedes-Benz E550
...the 450h posted the best 30-to-50 and 50-to-70 times in the group, performance that made it impressive in back-road passing maneuvers
There is little defense for it, but it is the way they do it... the only upside is getting the vehicle the exact way you want it.
TagMan
TagMan
The online article doesn't have those numbers. I suspect the hardcopy would, if anyone wants to dig out that issue.
We do know which car is favored on 0-60 times, though.
GS 450h.....MB 320 Bluetec
Trunk 7.5 cu ft 15.9 cu ft
Highlander Hybrid / GL diesel/ Yukon/Tahoe hybrid / RX 400h
.............................................
Front Headroom 40.1 in. 40.1 in. 41.1 in. 39.4 in
Rear Headroom 38.7 in. 40.6 in. 39.2 in. 37.4 in
Front Shoulder Room 57.9 in. 58.4 in. 65.3 in. 57.9 in.
Rear Shoulder Room 57.1 in. 58.9 in. 65.2 in. 57.1 in.
Front Hip Room 55.2 in. Not Published 64.4 in. 55.6 in.
Rear Hip Room 54.6 in. Not Published 60.6 in. 55.1 in.
Front Leg Room 42.9 in. 40.3 in. 41.3 in. 42.5 in.
Rear Leg Room 34.6 in. 39.5 in. 39 in. 36.4 in.
Standard Luggage Capacity 10.5 cu.ft. 14.3 cu.ft. na na
Maximum Luggage Capacity 81 cu. ft. 83 cu. ft. 109 cu. ft. 85 cu. ft.
Maximum Seating 7 7 8 5
.............................................
MPG combined EPA 26 20 20 26
(all AWD versions)
:P
450h: Convience store(7.5cu.ft of trunk space)
320BT: Summer Vacation(15.9cu.ft) on one tank of gas(up to 650 miles)
Owning both a perfromance car and a practical super fuel efficient car is not IMO a contradiction at all. Well at least not in my case. During the 90s I wanted to own both a BMW 3 series and a Honda Insight. Both cars are not compromises. They are both benchmark cars in their segments--performance and fuel efficiency.
I dont want to own a compromise. A performance hybrid is a compromise. As Designman had pointed out its weight, cvt and softer suspension is an antithesis to what a performance car should be. A diesel BMW is a compromise for me since I hardly ever drive on highways and wont be able to maximize my mileage on such a diesel. I know this since I currently own a 83 MB 300D that gets great highway mileage but not so great city mileage.
I have no intention upon buying any car soon since I love my BMW335i and the BMW530xi touring is one fun driving practical car. The only car that would make me change my mind is a lithium ion plug in hybrid EV family wagon or car with a lot of trunk space. Apparently I've got quite a few years to wait until that happens.
Fortunately there is some hope for the future, as battery technology is in a state of rapid technological advance.
Anthony I know exactly what you are saying.
Currently we have two BMWs in our garage. Nothing wrong with that at all. But sometimes I yearn for novelty and want to drive something different. Most likely my next performance car will not be a BMW. Maybe it will be an Audi.
Do you have the comparison between 2007 Lexus GS450h on the one hand and BMW 535d, for instance, in the other? (I am honestly curious.)
Jose
I know, I'm just pulling your collar a bit.
"If Toyota has a slow quarter, it has little to do with Toyota. We are in an economic downturn."
Doc, I know that's not the best you gonna give me. First, have you looked at the markets? Even through record high energy prices, it's still marching toward another record. For sure houses are at a standstill, and will get worse before it's all said and done, but that does not have anything to do with cars. If we're in such a poor economic state, then why does GM not feel the same sweat. They are enjoying refound energy on the backs of their great new product. They're not blaming the "economy". When they started to struggle to stay in business in '05, they didn't blame the economy. Their product was lousy. They knew it and they fixed it.
I'm glad to see that Toyota scaled back the incentives on the cars as you and I both know that the more incentives, the more hurt is put on the resale value of cars.
I do not doubt the Camry will remain the sales king. This is for sure, especially with them doubling output of the Hybrid and adding a decontented model to the line. The Prius will remain the go-to car for the Hybrid scene, although Toyota must stop delaying the new car, what is now to 2011? But the Tundra, I see something else. I see them struggling to hit 200k units. Yes, I know it's sales data. Very aware of the numbers over last year. But that Tundra struggled to do 130k units. So we'll see.
The long-awaited Corolla replacement is surely needed now. The Sequoia(2001) is super long in the tooth and the new one will complement the longer-awaited(1998)LC/LX replacements.
But I do believe that Toyota has a few tricks left up their sleeves and will remain the sales champ, for a while perhaps.
535d isn't sold in the US so far as I know, but I found this UK comparison:
link title
Hybrid vs Diesel
The Germans in particular claim that hybrid technology is unnecessary as they say that they can achieve everything that a hybrid can with a modern diesel engine at a lower cost. So how does the GS450h compare to the BMW 535d which is widely regarded as one of the best diesel engines in the business?
Well on price the BMW is well beaten, so that’s round one to the hybrid.
On performance at 5.9 seconds the Lexus beats the 5 series to 62 mph which arrives at 6.5 seconds. However diesel’s aren’t best suited to this, their strong hold is in gear acceleration thanks to lots of torque. However the Lexus combines instantaneous mountains of torque from the electric motor with top end power thanks to its 3.5 litre petrol engine. So on performance the hybrid wins again.
And so to the environmental issues. According to the official figures both cars have a combined fuel consumption of around 35 mpg. On the extra urban cycle the BMW is around 5 mpg better than the Lexus. On the urban cycle the Lexus is around 5 mpg better than the BMW. Both cars will use significantly more fuel if you drive them hard.
So what does this mean? If you spend all your time driving at a steady speed on the motorway, drive in a very fuel efficient manner, never meet any traffic and never start or finish a journey in an urban environment, you may get better fuel consumption from the BMW. However if you live in the real world where we have traffic and people do drive in urban areas, the Lexus will save you fuel. At the end of our test route we spent 30 minutes in stop start traffic. For 20 of these minutes we were achieving over 40 mpg with the Lexus doing long stints in electric only mode.
In terms of CO2 emissions despite the very similar combined fuel consumption figures, the BMW emits 211 g/km whilst the Lexus emits 186 g/km. This is because of the little reported fact that combusting diesel emits 13% more CO2 than combusting petrol, so the diesel cannot achieve the same CO2 emissions as the hybrid. In addition when the emissions that lead to poor air quality are also taken into consideration the diesel is trounced. Despite the fact that the BMW has a diesel particulate filter, which is a good thing, the emissions of NOx are over 200 times higher. In fact the Lexus doesn’t produce any NOx which is an incredible achievement.
Why is NOx a problem? Well it is estimated that poor air quality leads to 24,000 deaths a year in the UK. 191 authorities have air quality management areas and two thirds of these are related to NOx emissions. Another quarter have been declared on particulate emissions, which is why it is good that the BMW has a particulate filter. These emissions are currently rising due to the popularity of diesels.
Thanks to the CO2 benefits enjoyed by the Hybrid Lexus and its price advantage there are hefty financial savings for company car drivers. The BMW 535d will cost £465.41 a month in BIK. The Lexus GS 450h on the other hand will cost just £264.58 a month. That is a saving of over £2,400 a year.
Jlbl,
the BMW 535d has something that the MB Blutec and the Lexus GS does not have. And that is both these marques do not drive like BMWs. Very few statistical comparisons will reveal that.
Indeed it is my friend, indeed. Car's like GM's VOLT and the Tesla come to mind.
LOL
Syswei what a JOKE!!!
Thanks for digging this out from a very obscure and unknown ECO British travel publication. I certainly hope their travel articles are better :lemon:
This car test comparison was done not by car enthusiasts but by botanical garden environmental types whose main focus is not auto performance but "Mother Nature".
I would welcome more data, in particular 0-30 times, 50-70 times, etc., particularly as part of a comparo (i.e., tested by the same testers under identical conditions).
Unlike some here, I'm not afraid of the facts. The more facts we have, and the more credible they are, the better. I don't have blinders on, blinding me to facts that support "the other side". I'm on record saying that one of my next 2 vehicles may in fact be German.
I have at least to disagree on this one. My readings tell me gas engines emit more CO2 than diesel ones.
Jose
Edit: gas engines emit more CO2 than current diesel ones.