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  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    Dewey you're right, not only was that ad with Uncle Max perhaps the best VW ad, it was one of the best ads ever.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    So is it just me or does it look a little cross eyed in that last head on shot?

    All you have to do is Photoshop the fly on the car.

    image

    image
  • topspin628topspin628 Member Posts: 373
    If anyone it should be Minaya. He went into the season knowing that his no. one starter wouldn't be back until
    August and a big question mark at that. And he didn't make any moves prior to the season or at the deadline. I am sure that both he and Willie are safe though. But you will see big changes-Glavine will be a Brave or retire. Can you imagine him coming back here in a Brave's uniform? Green is gone, the bullpen will be re-worked and I don't think that both Alou and Degado will be back together. Maybe one or maybe neither. The team has to get a bit younger.

    The new one series looks very cool but I think that they will have to keep the price down if they want it to really take off in the niche market of the mini or even Miata type car. Those cars have a "cool" factor that has to do with low pricing as well. The BMW image is not really in line with that type of thinking. They have to be careful not to dilute the "luxury-snob" appeal of their higher end cars so it's a bit of a tight-rope marketing job for them. I remember when MB introduced the 190e (?) and people said it wasn't a real MB. I wonder how the S and SL Class buyers felt when they saw it. It's always difficult to grab for the "whole pie". That said, I really like the car as it seems like the "old" 3er a market that they may have recently abandoned as the current 3 has grown in size and price.
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    A blurb from Automotive News, but I can't get the full story since I don't subscribe:

    BMW AG will launch six new vehicles in the United States in the next several years -- all in niches where it does not now compete. The BMW brand gets three more models, including a small crossover and two sedans -- one of them priced above the 7 series.

    Anyone know anything about the "above 7 series" sedan?
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    But he's good for another year. He didn't push the right buttons in the last two weeks, and that's on him. He has one year to get the mojo back.

    Manaya getting rid of Roberto Hernandez and Brian Bannister and Rick Down had an off year too. Henderson needs to leave YESTERDAY! Reyes nosedived as soon as Mr. Me got here. :mad:

    Mid-season, there was no magic elixir available. He has a lot of work to do this off-season, too.

    Peterson is next out the door, if he doesn't get things turned around.

    I'll give Alou another year, for a part-time player, he has full-time production. And Perez can be a 4-5 starter.

    Castro needs to replace De Luca. Pedro has one more year on his deal, so he's fine. I'd pay Glavine not to exercise his player option! :sick:

    For everybody else, if your name isn't Maine, Reyes, Wright, or Beltran, I wouldn't buy any houses. :lemon:

    The Mets have a strong enough nucleus to make the postseason, both this year, and next year. No more excuses.

    DrFill
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    That's hilarious! Extreme, perhaps, but I honestly burst out laughing while I'm at breakfast at one of my favorite restaurants working off my mobile. A couple of folks looked at me wondering what had happened.

    Thanks for starting my day off with a big laugh.

    TagMan
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    Anyone know anything about the "above 7 series" sedan?

    That's the CS Concept. It's confirmed for production.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    Actually there were other cute pics of crosseyed kitties that weren't as extreme but I couldn't resist with that one. ;)
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Of course, I was reading the sports section this morning, and although it's been many, many years since I was a Mets fan, I couldn't help but feel bad for their incredible self-destruciton that happened at the end of their season.

    I feel bad for the Mets fans that are on this board, especially the Doc, who I'm sure took this hard... I imagine he might have hit the Jack Daniels.

    Anyway, it's the nature of sports... and the excitement of baseball is my all-time favorite. I played all my life, and continue with baseball by managing and coaching a little league team every season. It's a lot of fun working with the kids and seeing their excitement as they play the game.

    So, my sympathy goes out to all you Mets fans... you really got your hearts broken this season. :cry:

    Fortunately, there's always next year! :)

    TagMan
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    So, my sympathy goes out to all you Mets fans... you really got your hearts broken this season.

    YES. :cry::cry::cry:

    (Hard core fan since the miracle Mets of '69)
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Oh no Doc, he won't, because the Braves will win the NL East next season.

    Yes, mark my words.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    M45X: I don't know... I really like this car, but it's not for her.

    Would she consider a G35? I'm a big fan of the 335i, except for iDrive. The new C is a good looking car, at least in Sport guise, but I would think that the C300 might be a bit underpowered. Also, the C Sport's interior I think is mediocre at best. Even the Cadillac's blows it away. When's the last time that happened?
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    That's what "wild-cards" are for!

    I don't care how, Just get it in. Period! :mad:

    DrFill
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    That's what "wild-cards" are for!

    Don't forget about the Phillies... :P

    Okay, I am just pulling your legs. Honestly I much rather see Mets make the playoff than Phillies, for some reason I just don't like that team that much. As matter of fact I really don't like any teams from Philadelphia that much. Anyway, the best case scenario for me next season is:

    Braves win the NL East.
    Mets win the NL wild card.
    Both team meet up at the NL Championship game and the winner goes on to whoop Yankees' you know what...
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Check out the new IS-F website

    It has videos that show IS-F tracking the Laguna and Fuji Speedway.

    Now all I have to do is to come up with $30K... :cry:

    image

    image
  • jlbljlbl Member Posts: 1,333
    What I find most strange in the coupé picture is that the front wheels are just a bit turned to the right whereas the front lights are cross-eyed straight to the front. Strange adaptative mechanism!

    Jose
  • cyclone4cyclone4 Member Posts: 2,302
    You're forgetting about the best team in baseball (Red Sox of course). With incredible pitching and good hitting, they will be right there again next year. Mark my words that John Lester and Clay Bucholtz will both win at least 15 games next year at age 24.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Somehow the car just doesn't look all that fast to me.

    TagMan
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    168 MPH electronically limited.

    FYI, M3 is at 155 MPH.

    This car is fast.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Electronic limitation doesn't mean much, cause no one is going to drive that fast anyway. I'm talking about acceleration and cornering. It just doesn't seem that good from my eye's perspective. I guess we'll have to wait until the true tests and data come in on the car.

    BTW, I don't think it's appearance looks as bad as some posters have suggested.

    TagMan
  • laurasdadalaurasdada Member Posts: 5,217
    My sympathies to all the Metsies, too. From a lifelong fan from Seaver and Koosman through Darling and Gooden. 1986, still the greatest post-season play that I can remember. The Mets won 67% of their regular season games that year and I went to Shea 12 times: 6-6. I saw 11% of their losses! It was not Billy Buckner's fault, it was destiny!!!

    Then, in 1991, I moved north to Boston. And immediately contracted the disease known as the Red Sox! Back in '00, rather than the Subway Series, I was hoping for an '86 redux, but alas the Evil Empire...

    So, dear Mets fans, perhaps you could turn your hearts north (and AL) as I have and root, root, root for the Sox! Or, at least, any team that is playing the Yankees!

    Mets are still my NL team, although my Father and Brother, still rabid Metsies, don't understand this Red Sox thing...

    Sox will need their pitching to perform if they're going...to...go...all...the...way...!

    Folks, feel free to write a bit about your XKs, 911s and A/S8s as well as the occasional discussion of hybrid v. diesel here... ;)

    '21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)

  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    BMW, Mini and Rolls Royce maybe accompanied with another brand that is primarily focused on fuel efficiency and low emissions .

    The new brand will spearhead BMW's attempt to boost growth following criticism that it is too focused on luxury gas-guzzlers. A spokesman said: "We are looking at what a new brand would involve; we are looking at quite different forms of transportation."

    BMW aims to embrace new car styles and technology in a strategic push to address the problems faced by the world's expanding cities in dealing with emissions and congestion.

    The German group has developed a fuel-saving technology that should make its cars 20 per cent more fuel efficient than those made by its competitors. It is also involved in hydrogen technology and is to launch a hybrid petrol and electric car in 2009.

    Although speculation that BMW might buy Volvo as a fourth brand have been denied, chief executive Norbert Reithofer has stated that the company remains flexible should the right opportunity occur. However, no available brand meets BMW's growth and profits criteria.

    On Thursday, Mr Reithofer unveiled a series of new models intended to raise profits. BMW has been highly successful with the Series 1 BMW and the Mini. These account for a quarter of all vehicles sold but do not enjoy the same margins as larger models.

    link title
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    The new one series looks very cool but I think that they will have to keep the price down if they want it to really take off in the niche market of the mini or even Miata type car.

    First and foremost the 1 series is not a Miata or Mini type of car. Its more of a BMW in a traditional RWD sense than any other BMW available today. The very popular 1970s BMW 2002 was not an el cheapo car when it was introduced decades ago and this 1 series especially the 135i M Coupe will cater to a segment of the market that will be willing to pay close to if not more than a BMW 328 coupe.

    The 1 series will offer performance and handling that no other competitor can offer at this price range . The BMW 135i M Coupe will be far more car than the Audi A3 3.2 (and this Audi aint cheap)
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    The 1 series will offer performance and handling that no other competitor can offer at this price range

    Bingo! The 1-Series should not be taken to be some sort of compromized veicle in ANY way whatsoever. The 135i will be a true BMW, with incredible driving dynamics. I am VERY interested in acquiring one... just need to decide between covertible or coupe.

    What's your opinnion on that? Is there already info on the 135i M?

    TagMan
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    So, dear Mets fans, perhaps you could turn your hearts north (and AL) as I have and root, root, root for the Sox! Or, at least, any team that is playing the Yankees!

    Thanks for your condolences but, sorry, that's impossible here. I was born and raised in the Bronx, went to college in Queens and had many friends on the south side of the Whitestone Bridge. My allegiance is to all NY teams with the exception of the Islanders (long story). I know some people claim that you can't be a fan of both the Mets and Yankees, it's either/or but trust me, I am. I had very mixed emotions in the 2000 when they met up in the World Series.

    So as a gentleman I wish you and your Red Sox good luck, but to root for them would be a flagrant, traitorous denouncement of my baseball citizenry. Long live the legendary rivalry! I hope we meet again to dispute this year's AL pennant!! And I certainly don't want the Angels. They own us!

    Hey remember that epic playoff game with the Mets and Houston in 86?

    BTW, enjoy the Pats this year. I think they have a good chance to run the table.

    ;)
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    The 1 will probably be very attractively priced compared with the 3-series. To get the 3-series engines in a smaller car at a considerably lower price will be very tasty. Too bad about the marginal weight difference but it is attractive nonetheless.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    I highly doubt that the 1 will be priced considerably lower than the 3. My guesstimate is that the 135i will start a tick below $35K (something like $34,599), that's not much lower compare to 335i's $38K.

    Don't remember if I have posted in this board before but not long ago I did a comparison in pricing between the UK and US 135i and 335i.

    UK 335i: £31,550 = $64,493
    US 335i: $38,900 (60.3% of UK pricing)

    UK 135i Coupe: £29,745 = $60,804

    Using the same ratio, the US 135i will be priced around $36,665.
  • laurasdadalaurasdada Member Posts: 5,217
    I understand and appreciate your misguided loyalty to the Evil Empire. ;) Beyond being one who was an Amazins' fan and believed you should't split your allegiances, I just hated the fact that George Steinbrenner brought the "business" of baseball to the sports pages.

    As is true for most, I inherited my passion for the Mets from my Dad. A Forest Hills denizen whose heart was broken when the Dodgers moved to the more superficial side of the country. To this day, mention "Gil Hodges" and my Dad will mist up. He immediately adopted the Mets in '62 and passed on the appreciation for the team that gave us Choo Choo Coleman and "Dr. Strangeglove." I spent many a day crossing the Whitestone, parking under the highway and enjoying an RC Cola and reading the brand names on the tires of the planes as they flew over Shea to/from LaGuardia...

    Whilst born in Manhattan, my parents decided after my brother was born that NYC was no place to raise a family (and gave up a rent-controlled two bedroom apt. in The Century Building on CPW!) and moved us north. But, he is most definately a New Yorker at heart (as is my Bro). Not so much me...

    We all have our bad habits. Mine include too much chocolate ice cream. And you've made one of yours quite clear! :blush:

    "I root for two teams: The Red Sox and any team playing the Yankees!" But I refuse to utter the all too popular phrase (and I'll paraphrase, again), "Yankees create a large vacuum!"

    Car-wise, I still very much enjoy my '05 Abyss Blue Acura TL with it's multi-coated Zaino shine.

    '21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)

  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    If the coupe is $34.6 K, that's considerably lower than the 3-coupe at $40+K. Then it depends on how it's equipped. If it comes with the sport suspension like the 3-coupe, then the difference is fairly significant.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    The world hates the Yankees. I've accepted my fate and am proud to say that the team of the late 90s was one of the humblest, most likeable teams that ever existed.

    BTW, I don't like Steinbrenner either and in the 2000 WS I did root for the Mets because of Steinbrenner and a desire to see the Mets get their piece of the pie after the Yanks had recently gotten 3. But it was a strange strange feeling.
  • laurasdadalaurasdada Member Posts: 5,217
    Agreed, many of the players have been class acts, e.g. Donny Baseball, Louisiana Lightnin' and (the currently embattled?) Willie Randolph.

    But the Blowhard and the feeling of choose one true love and forsake all others is just hard to shake... So: Meet the Mets! Meet the Mets! Step right up and... well, you know...

    Go Sawx! And lest we forget: Patriots!!!

    Of course, choosing one true love and forsaking all others does not necessarily apply to cars. Love my TL, but I certainly have lust in my heart for many others. Oh, XK! Why doth your price forsake me!

    And there's another fine example of why my brother is paid rather handsomely to write, whilst I toil in IT obscurity... :sick:

    '21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)

  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    What's your opinnion on that? Is there already info on the 135i M?

    I dont any specific details yet about the 135i M for the USA.

    I can understand your excitement though but I cant share it since I need backseat space in the form of a 335i sedan.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    If the coupe is $34.6 K, that's considerably lower than the 3-coupe at $40+K. Then it depends on how it's equipped

    It will be definitely attractively price compared to an equivalent 3 series but it still wont be cheap nor will it dillute the brand status of BMW.

    BMW's fourth brand may offer lower priced cars since it may consist of fuel misers with novel drivetrains on a fwd platform. I look foward to further details of this brand since I do need a fuel efficient city commuter(my 335i gets about 30 MPG HWY and a dismal 17 MPG City). Unfortunately my mileage is usually city MPG due to my driivng routes.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    I need backseat space in the form of a 335i sedan.

    Same here.

    An E36 size of sedan from BMW with the 3.0L TT will be perfect for me. Maybe a 2-series? :blush:
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Lexus also is studying ``a hybrid that's engineered for really high mileage and really low emissions,'' Farley said, without elaborating.

    I find the above quote very interesting. This is the first I ever heard of a luxury brand that is thinking of developing a car solely for high mileage and low emissions.

    Toyota's Lexus May Add High-Performance U.S. Hybrids (Update2

    By Alan Ohnsman

    Sept. 27 (Bloomberg) -- Toyota Motor Corp.'s Lexus, the top-selling luxury brand in the U.S., is studying high- performance hybrids to appeal to buyers who want something sporty while being environmentally friendly.

    Lexus may build such gasoline-electric models to reach ``enthusiast groups'' outside its core market, General Manager Jim Farley said in an interview yesterday.

    More-powerful models may help Toyota meet a goal of extending its hybrid dominance in the U.S., with 78 percent of the market. The world's biggest maker of hybrids helped boost 2007 U.S. sales of the vehicles by 44 percent through August, based on Bloomberg data and figures from Autodata Corp.

    ``The benefit of electric drives is immediately available torque,'' said Eric Fedewa, an analyst at CSM Worldwide Inc. in Northville, Michigan. ``The Lexus hybrids have been tuned for performance to some extent, but there's potential for a true high-performance hybrid. That could be an exciting vehicle.''

    Lexus also is studying ``a hybrid that's engineered for really high mileage and really low emissions,'' Farley said, without elaborating.

    ``There is a huge opportunity for a luxury-car company to be seen as a solution provider in terms of getting away from carbon pollution and heavy reliance on oil,'' said Farley, who is based at Toyota's U.S. sales headquarters in Torrance, California.

    Challengers

    Lexus is watching to see how consumers react to General Motors Corp.'s proposed Volt plug-in hybrid, intended to go 40 miles solely on electricity before the engine engages, and Tesla Motors Inc.'s battery-powered sports car that promises 245 miles of all-electric range, Farley said.

    A rechargeable Lexus hybrid with extended electric range is possible, though an improved, ``super-efficient'' version of Toyota's current hybrid system may be more likely, he said.

    At this month's Frankfurt auto show, DaimlerChrysler AG's Mercedes-Benz, Bayerische Motoren Werke AG and Porsche AG displayed hybrid sport-utility vehicles intended to challenge Toyota in the U.S. in the next two years. GM has announced plans to offer hybrid Cadillac models to appeal to luxury buyers.

    Toyota has sold more than a million hybrids since its Prius was introduced in 1997. ``In the U.S., hybrid is a key brand differentiator, and we don't intend to give that up,'' Farley said.

    The Japanese automaker's U.S. hybrid sales this year were 190,057 for the first eight months as rising gasoline prices and wider model selection continued to add to the vehicles' appeal.

    link title
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    I need backseat space in the form of a 335i sedan.
    Same here


    So you bought a Lexus IS350 instead :confuse:

    Over one year ago I got so excited when I test drove the BMW 335i coupe that I was ready to order one until cold logic prevailed (in otherwords my wife's logic) and I chose a sedan instead.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    So you bought a Lexus IS350 instead

    Sure, why not?

    All I need is 4 doors and a back seat, doesn't have to be roomy. I have put 2 guys in the back of my IS from Melbourne to Orlando (about an hour drive) without any problem.

    80% of the time I am the only person in my car and another 19% my girlfriend is in the front passenger seat with me. So as long as I have a backseat with easy entry/exit (this is where coupes get eliminated) for the rest 1% then I am good. I also much prefer small cars thus the IS350 is perfect for me.

    The G35, IMO, has gotten way too big as well as the TL. 3-series is also perfect for me with even a roomier backseat but at the time of my purchase, the 335i was not yet available. To me it's a no brainer between the IS350 and 330i. Even if the 335i was available back then I am not sure if I can look pass the not-so-desirable interior.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    You share my opinions on small cars except for your unsavory views on the intererior of a 335i.

    I love my interior. In fact I like it even more than my wife's 530xi touring interior and that may have something with its big size. The interior I like best for big cars is the MB S Class. I sat in one of those for a short ride and I was quite impressed.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Tagman,

    I dont know if you read this press release on the 1 series?

    link title
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Thanks Dewey, I had not read the official press release.

    The 1-Series sounds great, and I think the 135i as a coupe would be the better choice than the convertible. As Houdini pointed out, I'm already good in the ragtop department.

    I am concerned, though, that the rear seat would be too small for the occassional use for my kids. And I don't know how to find out, other than to wait for the car show and hope that a 1-series is represented there. The San Francisco International Auto Show comes during Thanksgiving. That's the easiest one for me to drive to.

    Again... THANKS! :)

    TagMan
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Member Posts: 5,621
    "(Hard core fan since the miracle Mets of '69)"

    Now that's hard to believe. I remember listening to that series while I was fitting out my '65 MGB for what turned out to be a journey to Nova Scotia. I was in college.

    Back in January of '01 you were covering an event in CA for a car that doesn't even exist anymore, but got a big fan boost from Edmunds. I was there & met you -- were you a fan of baseball in elementary school?

    Enquiring minds. . .
    '08 Acura TSX, '17 Subaru Forester
  • topspin628topspin628 Member Posts: 373
    ;) I am a life long Mets fan and here I am coming to Edmunds to get away from the horrible collapse and what am I seeing but constant references to the great hall of fame pitcher who didn't get it done for us in the biggest game of the year. (He seems like a class guy by the way, and I'm sure he's really hurting over this one in spite of a somewhat stoic public demeanor).
    So can we all agree that the "In Glavine" heading will be forever banished? :)
    Maybe there are some Padres fans who want to post under "In Peavey" ;)
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,356
    Over one year ago I got so excited when I test drove the BMW 335i coupe that I was ready to order one until cold logic prevailed and I chose a sedan instead.

    I fear that if cold logic was used in new car buying, no one would ever buy one. Mostly emotion is involved. New car depreciation is by far the biggest consumer expense in the U.S....and Canada...but, we need those toys! :D

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • bristol2bristol2 Member Posts: 736
    I hate to pile on, but as a disinterested non-baseball fan, when I see the post-game interviews with the Mets guys compared to the Padres players, it just seems like the Mets are mildly put-out that they didn't make it. The Padres players are crushed and angry about it.
    I have a hard time with athletes who leave all the passion up to the fans...you Mets fans are patient with your team.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    The minor question of sedan vs. the coupe was a bit of logic, perhaps, but buying the 335i itself, with its 300 hp twin turbo engine, 300 lbs. of torque, tuned suspension, and sexy good looks isn't logical at all... it's pure emotion... and there's little doubt that the BMW 335i offers a very satisfying emotional reward!!

    TagMan
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    sexy good looks isn't logical at all... it's pure emotion...

    If by that you meant the coupe I am whole heartily agree. If you are talking about sedan, uh...

    Different strokes for different folks I guess.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    I fear that if cold logic was used in new car buying

    Yeah I know what you are saying. I tend to keep my cars until they hit the grand old age of clunkerhood.

    But let me give you some cold logic for buying a European car today versus next year:

    Drivers who have been thinking about buying a European luxury car may not want to wait too long.

    As the dollar continues its long slide against the euro, prices of vehicles made by such auto companies as BMW AG, Porsche AG and Volkswagen AG's Audi unit have steadily crept upward ahead of U.S. and Japanese vehicles over the past few years. But while car makers have largely avoided substantial price increases so far, some analysts are warning that could change as soon as next year.

    They "can't make money at the current exchange rates, so they either have to raise prices or start building them here," says David Healy, an analyst at financial-services firm Burnham Securities

    WALL STREET JOURNAL
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    The luxury car with the highest male ownership is the Audi RS4. It starts at $66,910 and goes from zero to 60 in under 5 seconds. The car most owned by females: the S40, at the bottom of Volvo's luxe line. It starts at $24,000 and aced the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety's frontal crash test.

    image
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    The San Francisco International Auto Show comes during Thanksgiving. That's the easiest one for me to drive to.

    During January I will be a few hours away from the Detroit Auto Show. Duirng the upcoming 2008 Detroit Show Porsche will no longer participate for the first time ever. :lemon:
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    The only one I am surprised that it made the list is the Jaguar X-type, especially it ranked so high.
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