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Comments
This is a new low. :sick:
DrFill
Well, they do seem able to get more hybrid assist to a V8 than Lexus. Just look at the pitiful improvement the LS600hL provides in contrast to the LS460L.
In addition, Toyota can't seem to get the L-I batteries to work safely. In the meantime Chevy's volt is already close, and the Tesla sportscar just achieved a whopping 245 mile range on a single charge utilizing L-I battery technology. They may market it as a 200-mile range to protect themselves, however... but still, that's remarkable... and it is ahead of Toyota.
Now on the other hand, I wouldn't expect anything less than an incredible next generation Prius from Toyota when it finally comes out... one that will blow the doors off of most everything else... but we will see, because the hybrid arena is truly getting more competitive, and Toyota is not the only player for long.
Doc, say what you want, but Lexus first targeted Mercedes Benz, and you can deny it if you want to, and now they are targeting both Mercedes and BMW. Don't you just love the Bangled rear of so many of the Lexus vehicles now? :P
TagMan
Which is why the "F" cars don't really make a whole lot of sense. The F cars are supposed to be "Everything Lexus isn't". Why would you want to make a product that runs counter to everything you stand for? Who is supposed to buy it?
TM
Bingo! Unless, Lexus is in fact going a different direction... or maybe trying to be all things to all people.
No matter how you look at it, it proves Lexus isn't staying true to themselves anymore... and hasn't been lately.
Maybe this sums up the latest Lexus... "Lexus...the pursuit of trying to perfect what others have already done".
TagMan
The way Lexus seems to operate is that they have their cars - the ES, LS, and SC, and then they have the Lexus answer to the 3/C and 5/E - the IS and GS, the confused, sporty but not really, awkward cars because Lexus DNA and performance don't really mesh. I have a feeling that the IS-F will be the Lexus answer to the M3 and C63, plenty fast, but they won't be willing to sacrifice Lexus NVAH levels or ride quality, so it will probably come up short in terms of road feel and overall handling.
In fact, they have already hinted that in their official press release:
"Lexus did not design the IS F as a direct competitor to any specific performance model but rather as a true performance sedan in a distinctly Lexus way"
IMHO, it is only the LF-A that is truly going to impress the "enthusiast" crowd. Not sure when it is supposed to go into production, or even if their are reliable rumors on that subject. I do like the picture.
They don't need to win more awards. They don't need more respect.
They don't need to sell more cars, or open more dealerships.
They've pretty much delivered on every promise.
I honestly think they thought taking over America would be much more difficult! :surprise:
So now what's next? Where do you go from #1 at.....everything?
Villifying them for looking for new challenges truly baffles me. :confuse:
Does anybody really think Lexus cares what BMW is doing?
I wouldn't. BMW is a huge success. Lexus is a huge success. They are mutually exclusive.
If they make something "unLexuslike", it would be to test the market, or out of sheer curiousity.
They can run this market for 20-30 years, just like they have been for the last decade.
DrFill
All this talk about Lexus targeting BMW or Mercedes in the U.S is just so much blather. Why on earth would they bother? Would they be trying to snatch the #2 or #3 spot away from Merc or BMW? Come on, let's be rational here.
Mercedes targets the idle rich and BMW really has no viable luxury entrant at all right now. Most of their customers are younger women and boy racer types.
Lexus has the LS, numero uno. End of discussion.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Anyone remember Cadillac and the Engine Management System of the early 80's? You do it right, or you get eliminated. :lemon:
I am sure they are running more test on Ions than anyone else, and when it's ready for to last, like a Toyota would, they'll start using it.
I fully expect 1 or 2 other companies to use them first. That's really the competition's only shot is to rush Ions to market. Wouldn't you? What does GM, or Chrysler, have to lose? They're already sinking in quicksand. They may catch lightning in a bottle. :surprise:
Toyota will just use them better. That's how we do!
If Chevy Volt is coming before 2010, please let me know. That would be news! :surprise:
DrFill
You've got to be kidding!
EVERYTHING? Hardly. They sell a lot of LS models... That's pretty much it.
Other than that, they can't compete with anyone. They can't build a 3-series competitor, although they pretend to with the IS. The GS is certainly no 5-series.
I suppose they should get some credit for the RX... but goodness that thing is ancient.
What do they have to compete with my Carrera S? Zilch!
Even Cadillac builds a fancy truck! Does Lexus?
Lexus gets credit for the LS and the old RX. Much of the lineup is a fancied-up Toyota anyway.
TagMan
TagMan
I wish Lexus would come out with a version for the US. Lexus could really use a decent-mpg 6+ seat vehicle. I'd jump at the chance to replace my aging LX470 with such a car, rather than a guzzling LX570.
They've said so themselves. Heck, when Mercedes 7-speed tranny came out, Lexus openly stated that they wanted to one-up Mercedes and build an 8-speed. If MB hadn't built the 7-speed, you'd have never seen the 8-speed from Lexus.
The motto I posted is true..."Lexus...the pursuit of trying to perfect what others have already done."
I suppose the Bangled rear of recent Lexus vehicles is a mere coincidence!
The SC430 appears to be one of the few original ideas from Lexus... and just look at it... it's a horrible ugly monster!
The bulk of the lineup is either motivated by Mercedes or BMW or re-badged Toyotas.
TagMan
QUESTION : By the time you got back to Stuttgart, Mercedes was No. 2 and BMW had become the top premium automotive brand. What's your strategy to catch them and become No. 1 again if you can?
ZETSCHE: Well, it very much depends on what yardstick you apply.
It probably was true in a number of areas two years ago. Today, it's true in numbers of vehicles being sold, but it's not true in revenues and, most importantly, it's not true in profits, which is ultimately why we are in business.
We have become tremendously profitable. We have announced a target of 10 per cent return on sales on an ongoing basis by 2010 at the latest and that's far beyond any of our other competitors.
In that sense, we are clearly the leading manufacturer.
QUESTION : You are showing a lot of environmental technology at the Frankfurt show but I think people perceive Toyota to be the green company because they pushed hybrid so far and so fast. How are you working on the green reputation of Mercedes-Benz?
ZETSCHE: At least in Europe, people have started to understand that environment is not just about hybrids.
It takes more to try to find the right solution for the future and hybrid is part of it.
We at Mercedes have a clear set of targets: We will make the diesel as clean as the gasoline engine with BlueTec; we will make the gasoline engine as fuel-efficient as the diesel engine with DiesOtto; and we will combine both engines with hybrid components in order to come up with unbelievable results.
For instance, with the S-Class Mercedes with all its safety, comfort, space and very good performance, we will be able to run 44 miles per U.S. gallon (5.3 litres/100 km).
That number would have been seen to be totally unrealistic a short period ago and we will offer that to the customer in 2010.
link title
Aufwiedersehen BMW.
Guten Tag Porsche Panamera (but only if it is sold without that Tiptronic tranny of theirs).
PRESS RELEASE:
Porsche Lowers Canadian Pricing for 2008 Models Compared to 2007
ATLANTA, September 25, 2007--- Porsche Cars North America, Inc. announced that it will lower prices in Canada by more than 10 percent on its 2008 models compared to prices and standard equipment on its 2007 lineup.
"We cannot ignore our customers and dealers in Canada who can look to the U.S. and recognize a substantial price difference," said Peter Schwarzenbauer, President and CEO of Porsche Cars North America, Inc. "We listened to the market and did what is best for our customers in Canada."
Porsche will lower the MSRP of its 2008 models by an average of more than 8 percent. Additionally, on an average equipment adjusted basis, 2008 models will offer another 2 percent in savings from 2007 models.
Expect to see such a tranny in less than 6 months in the new BMW M3. Maybe I was a bit too hasty when I said aufwiedersehen BMW.
The new BMW M3 will get a seven-speed double-clutch gearbox as an alternative to the standard six-speed manual.
Official confirmation of the long-rumoured transmission came via a document issued to BMW dealers confirming the car’s specification.
The new gearbox, called M DCT, will be available from March 2008. Made by BMW’s long-standing transmission partner Getrag, it will provide rapid and nearly imperceptible shifts.
The speed of a double-clutch transmission is likely to improve the M3’s 4.8sec 0-62mph time by a couple of tenths of a second. The system should offer significantly smoother shifts than BMW’s SMG transmission in the M5 and M6.
Exactly!
We at Mercedes have a clear set of targets: We will make the diesel as clean as the gasoline engine with BlueTec; we will make the gasoline engine as fuel-efficient as the diesel engine with DiesOtto; and we will combine both engines with hybrid components in order to come up with unbelievable results.
Sweet!
For instance, with the S-Class Mercedes with all its safety, comfort, space and very good performance, we will be able to run 44 miles per U.S. gallon.
Eat THAT, LS600hL.
TagMan
IIRC, Porsche will soon be replacing that horrible Tiptronic with something better. By the time the Panamera arrives, it may have the improved Tiptronic.
I don't know the details, but I'm quite certain there is to be an improvement.
TagMan
That's a bit premature. We need to see what the LS hybrid looks like in 2010. And what performance characteristics go along with the 1.8-liter DiesOtto when you drop it into a vehicle as heavy as the S. (My guess is that acceleration isn't going to be acceptable to luxury buyers. Might as well put the Prius or Camry hybrid drivetrain in an LS and see what MPG and accelaration results.)
Come on people (and Doc), of course Lexus has BMW in its scope, if I am Lexus I would do the same thing too. I'll bet that Lexus is fascinated by BMW as being the only other luxury brand who is gaining market share in an amazing pace. Lexus wants to find out what's the winning formula for BMW and incorporated into its own in order to make itself even better. That's what Lexus does, besides its own original ideas (there are few, the LS, ES, RX, luxury hybrids and the most important, Lexus service and dealer experience) it takes other good ideas and makes it even better. That's why Lexus is so successful today. I don't have respect for blind copying (that's why I'll probably never buy Infiniti) but I have a lot of respect for people or companies who stick with their own principals but not afraid to change. Folks, that's Lexus for ya.
Granted the IS and GS are Lexus' version of 3/C and 5/E. I like the IS the best since it almost reached my expectation for a Lexus sedan (3/5 BMW and 2/5 MB), with a stick in the 350 version it'll be almost perfect. The GS on the other hand is more like 1/5 BMW and 4/5 MB so they still got a few things to sort it out there. Americans have spoken (with their money of course) that the LS, ES, and RX are the best full size luxury sedan, entry level luxury sedan and luxury CUV, respectively. They may not stack up in terms of performance against their counterparts but so what? This is the Lexus way and it's a successful way, that's all it matters.
I said it again and again, Lexus is not out there to make a Lexus 3-series or Lexus 5-series. They are out to provide alternatives with Lexus philosophy of the 3-series and 5-series. Why is Lexus constantly getting knocked on the IS not being 3er enough and GS not being 5er enough is beyond me. People who value BMW performance will get a BMW (or an Infiniti if the bank account is short) but it's a mistake to assume that EVERYONE wants a BMW. 5,000+ IS250/350 a month proves that there are enough people out there who rather have a 3-series alternative than an actual 3-series. One can only imagine what the sales figure will be when a coupe and a convertible version join the lineup in the near future. Rather than bashing on Lexus not being enough BMW I say kudos to them for giving the buying public an alternative choice in every segments.
As for the LI battery issue. I don't think Toyota knows any less than anybody else in the auto industry. As matter of fact I think they know MORE than everybody else, that's why they are being so cautious with this technology. Toyota has a way tighter quality control than GM and that's why a defect percentage that GM can tolerate will be unacceptable with Toyota. I have no doubt in my mind that with all the cash and resource Toyota has the R&D probably is currently running the most thourough test for the LI batteries. Bottom line is: it's better be late than sorry.
The idea of Lexus having BMW and MB in their scopes is one I argued long ago, and I am very glad to see you understand and agree and articulated very well in your post. Good job.
As far as the battery technology goes... don't give Japan do much credit for understanding the technology better than others. Perhaps you recall the recent laptop battery debacle.
Sure, I agree Toyota wants to be safer than sorry, but I also think they are watching carefully to see what others are developing because they (Toyota) are not on track as they would like to be. Thus the big delay in the new Prius with LI batteries. I do agree with them for not moving forward when they are not ready. But I don't give them credit for being ahead. IMO, they are behind.
TagMan
No, I really don't think they've got it figured out as much as they would like, and I do believe that engineers at Tesla, for example, are ahead of Toyota.
TagMan
Supposedly that kind of crossover is in the works. The regular Mark X sedan isn't too shabby either. Unfortunately there's quite a few interesting JDM Toyotas that we don't get.
The reasons to get an M instead of a 5 are not just money. The M provides 90% of the performance of the 5 (and how often would you use more than 90% of a BMW's performance), with class leading reliability, (sorry Lexus) and electronics that embarrass the BMW. I can easily afford a 550i. I don't like the way it looks, I don't like iDrive, and I don't like its interior. Infiniti got just about everything right with the M except for the 5-speed autobox, while Lexus got just about everything wrong with the GS.
GM's new VOLT is dependent on small US firms that are focused on LI development. Disruptive technologies like Lithium ion auto batteries are best developed in small firms and are usually bogged down in big firms (i.e. Toyota and Fuji) by conflicting intersts within a vast corporation.
David beat Goliath. And in this case the prospects for LI looks far better for GM than Toyota.
Unfortunately USA does not get the most interesting cars from GM and Ford. Those cars are only sold to Europeans. :surprise:
Have you seen the styling of the Honda Civic in Europe? Gripes it makes me want to immigrate when I see the Civic that is available on our shores.
As for the LI battery issue. I don't think Toyota knows any less than anybody else in the auto industry. As matter of fact I think they know MORE than everybody else, that's why they are being so cautious with this technology. Toyota has a way tighter quality control than GM and that's why a defect percentage that GM can tolerate will be unacceptable with Toyota. I have no doubt in my mind that with all the cash and resource Toyota has the R&D probably is currently running the most thourough test for the LI batteries. Bottom line is: it's better be late than sorry.
Got you onboard. Get Tag here! :shades:
DrFill
A compliment to Toyota's lineup! It's a pretty desperate insult, if intended. But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.
They are afraid, that's all. They don't understand LI as much as GM. Even Tesla is ahead of them in LI battery knowledge.
That's good! Did anyone ever tell you you weren't funny? You have skillz! I don't care what Dewey says about you.
DrFill
Eat THAT, LS600hL.
Can't wait to get one!
Oh......that's right......Mercedes isn't selling anything like that here. I guess we can suck on the proverbial egg? Everybody's a superstar, until they have to come here and fight Lexus for supremacy. :surprise:
I guess Mercedes wants to be Lexus now, as does Cadillac and BMW, with there Hybrids, no?
I ain't mad at ya! :P
DrFill
Doc... there is no evidence that Toyoya is ahead in LI battery technology. Just the opposite.
TagMan
I don't see ANYONE with a Ion battery, so everybody is at Square Zero on that.
I know Toyota is way ahead of the curve in overall Hybrid tech knowledge and implementation. So they get the benefit of the doubt GM doesn't get.
Take a look at the Malibu Hybrid, then tell me what GM is and isn't capable of vs Toyota. :confuse:
DrFill
The worst insult is the Focus. We're stuck with an ugly reskin on an 8 year old platform while Europe gets the new Focus ST and later on a new RS. Europe gets their own Civic Type R, which we don't get at all, but the JDM Civic Type R (which actually looks a lot like our Civic) is still the best.
Things are starting to look up though. Most of the new Opels are working their way over here as Saturns. They aren't perfect, but compared to the Ion and L series, they're a revelation. I like Ford's Euro styling direction a lot more than the US "Gillette Mach 3" look, so I'd be happy to trade the Fusion and Taurus X for a Mondeo and S-max.
Even Mazda decided the new 6 bound for Europe wasn't big enough for the US market, so they'll probably ruin the styling before it makes its way here.
Toyota gets credit for NOT being ahead in battery technology and playing it safe and improving on other's technologies.
But, you say they are ahead in hybrid technology but the others don't get credit for playing it safe and improving on Toyota's technologies.
So... you give Toyota credit when they are first AND when they are last!! :confuse:
TagMan
I don't give anybody any credit until I see the real thing in my local dealership.
I think Tesla is ahead on LI technology than anybody else and that's about it. When the GM Volt hits the showroom floor with everything that it promised then I'll crown it king of the hybrid (Assume that Toyota stays put).
It's just pointless to consider one ahead of another when all we could based on is press releases and vaporwares.
Seriously though, you seem to be on some premise that Toyota is not the unquestioned Hybrid leader, in technology, sales, efficiency, any measure. That hasn't been explained.
Toyota gets the benefit of the doubt because they are the leader. Period! They didn't play it safe. They played it well. So, yes, they get not some, but all the credit.
Has someone improved on Toyota's technology. I missed that memo too, Tag.
So now if Toyota wants to go with Ion batteries, whenever, 5 years from now, they will get the Lion's share of the sales because of the reputation they've built. And if they don't GM the Ion battery, they should be applauded, not ridiculed. :confuse:
I HOPE someone goes with Ions before Toyota! How do you like that? :surprise:
DrFill
It's just pointless to consider one ahead of another when all we could based on is press releases and vaporwares.
That's very reasonable... to a point.
Tesla has already run their car and it delivered 245 miles on a single charge!!!
Chevy's Volt, on the other hand, IIRC, has only publicly been presented as having gone 20 miles per charge at this point. Nothing to get too excited about.
Toyota... :confuse:
TagMan
TOKYO -- Toyota, which dominates the hybrid-vehicle market with more than a million sold over the past decade, has developed a new type that plugs into a home socket for a longer ride as an electric car -- raising the stakes in the plug-in race.
The Toyota Plug-in HV received government approval yesterday to run on public roads for tests, the first time a manufacturer has received such certification in Japan, Toyota Motor Corp. said. Toyota plans tests for the United States and Europe.
General Motors Corp. and Ford Motor Co. are among the Toyota rivals also developing plug-in hybrids.
Like most hybrids now on sale, the new Toyota also recharges by converting energy from braking and the spinning wheels. But the plug-in runs longer on electricity than current models.
It is widely thought that hybrid vehicles, which are powered by electric motors and gasoline engines, can help reduce global warming because they have better mileage than comparable vehicles powered only by gas engines.
Masatami Takimoto, the Toyota executive in charge of technology, declined to say when Toyota will bring a plug-in hybrid to market. Innovation in battery technology is needed, he said.
"We still need some time," he said.
The Plug-in HV displayed yesterday runs on the same nickel metal hydride battery as the Prius and has a cruising range of 8 miles on electricity. The maximum speed of Plug-in HV as an electric vehicle is 62 miles an hour. The batteries require about 1.5 hours to recharge at 200 volts and three or four hours at 100 volts. The more common hybrids such as Toyota's Prius have a cruising range of 1.9 miles as an electric vehicle, according to Toyota.
General Motors is developing the Chevrolet Volt plug-in hybrid, and says it hopes its plug-ins can reach showrooms by 2010. Earlier this month, Ford announced a partnership with Southern California Edison to test rechargeable hybrid vehicles and hasten mass production of plug-in hybrids.
Source: The Boston Globe
Until the LI battery technology is actually used successfully, I think louiswei has a reasonable perspective to give credit when it actually happens... to a point, as I posted already.
But I sure I don't like the double standard you shared when you gave Toyota credit for being a leader (with hybrid tech) and in the same breath you gave them credit for being a follower (with LI battery tech).
You want it both ways, fella!!... and that won't fly with me.
Otherwise, we're good here.
TagMan
I am definitely going to this year's SEMA show.
The Passionate Pursuit
One rather garish and pointless SC430? This isn't like an Alpina BMW, there has to be something decent to work with before a tuner can legitimately make it a better car.
In the U.S. major league luxury car market BMW is running a poor 3rd or maybe even 4th as I would put Audi ahead of them.
I would love to see BMW get their act together in the U.S. and give us another luxury car alternative here.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
According to the link, this SC was TOTALLY redone, as the pic well indicates.
Given the SC as it REALLY is, it's no wonder so much had to be done to it! :P
I kind of like it, except for the back.
TagMan
Following who? Nobody's selling a Lithium-Ion battery Hybrid yet!
Other than that, you're on the right planet!
DrFill
Really.
TagMan
BMW is a market leader as well. I don't see how that can be a question. :confuse:
DrFill
DrFill
Please rank these four cars in order per your preference: Lexus LS, Audi A8, BMW 7 series and Mercedes S class.
I don't know what their plans are for 2008 but I hope it is a big improvement.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460