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They are some of the greatest Toyota and Lexus cars ever made, but I don't know I'd go farther than that. The SC would've been much better if they hadn't removed the turbo from the Soarer 3.0T for the North American market. The Supra Turbo was a bit chunky, and it couldn't match the dynamics of the 300ZX TT. I also thought that the RX-7 Turbo was a bit better looking than the Supra. They were also both at least $40K in their day, not amazingly affordable.
Somebody please tell me my math is wrong! Where is Brightness?
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
I don't know what chunky means, but 300Z never could beat the Supra in a direct comparison, after many chances, so R&T was left to try to find competition from Ferrari and Porsche.
The Toyota only gave performance like this:
http://www.mkiv.com/publications/car&driver/index.html
The RX-7 was a virtual match, dynamically, due to it's smaller size and weight (although it still lost to the Supra when compared, it impressed). Unfortunately, the durability made a C4 'Vette seem bulletproof. If you look at one long enough, you can watch it decompose.
Either vehicle stickered around $38k, the SC300 5-speed was around $33k, and the Supra Turbo even made a brief appearance below $30k before it....it....
Not having to hire a wheelman to deliver my down payment. Priceless!
DrFill
It was rubenesque... pleasantly plump.
That was yesterday. Today it is not only cranky Green Party members who want to slow down the Autobahn but also certain members from Germany's mainstream CDU and SPD political parties. . The green credentials of the cars exhibited in the 07 Frankfurt Auto Show was the major focus of the show. The VP of Finance of BMW called this show a "Frankfurt Gardening Show".
And even without a speed limited Autobahn the following EU regulations will cause some pain for German luxury automakers:
In February, the European Union announced that it would propose rules in 2008 to force manufacturers to limit emissions for new cars to an average of 130 grams of carbon dioxide per kilometer by 2012. Luxury cars now typically emit roughly double that. Even stricter European targets are contemplated for 2020. In comparison, recent California legislation mandates roughly 190 g/km (adjusted for differences between U.S. and European test methods) by 2012, notes Friedman. Many European countries, including France, the U.K. and Norway, already have a CO2 emissions-registration tax, which disproportionately bashes bigger polluters.
"It's a balancing act, energy usage versus driving pleasure, but we Germans are very green right now, and car makers here are being heavily criticized,"
BARRONS
BUNK! I dont believe those Traffic Authority types.
And what will the solution be to punish luxury car drivers? Higher luxury taxes ofcourse!
Sounds like a tax grab story to me.
IMO the real reason for accidents has little to do with the car itself but everything to do with the type of person behind the steering wheel. Type A Personality types, thrill seeking teenagers and sociopaths are the most dangerous ones on the roads today (in Canada and elsewhere)
Did anyone mention it looked a bit chunky?
TagMan
I wonder what happened to the engineers that were able to design and build a car like that. Did they jump ship for Nissan? Honda? Toyota sure has no need for them these days.
TM
They dont. Toyota is more successful without them.
Lexus--luxury , comfort and stellar services
Toyota--dependable fuel efficient mainstream cars offered at good value prices
With the above reputations who needs scorching performance ?
Toyota knows what they're good at and it aint delusions of high sport-performance grandeur. They also know that any company that tries to be everything to everyone will fail. "Sticking to their knitting" is what makes Toyota a great company.
I call their abstinance a "Mission of Mercy".
Pay those old engineers to count all the cash coming in, and reminisce about when Toyota had something to prove.
DrFill
Fully agreed. You may connect this campaign to that on green guiltiness carried on in Germany and other Countries you pointed at above. It looks like there is a kind of compulsory, blind and demagogic "something has to be done—who is going to do more?" government behavior.
Jose
:sick:
More than likely the RWD AE86 and Supra will be back. If the Supra is back then we can bank on the next SC will be riding on the same platform with same engine choices. That could be amazing...
With the new F-division and LF-A I think Toyota/Lexus is on a roll. By all the LF-A in Nurburgring videos I saw, this car will give F430 a run for the money.
Now just do it!
If you're not going to bring it back, that's fine, just don't use the name unless you're serious.
Jim Press said about 4 years ago that the FJ Cruiser beat out the Supra in a new vehicle in-house contest. :surprise:
DrFill
I don't agree.
Evidence? ... the recent build enthusiasm for the IS-F... and the othe xx-F upcoming performance cars.
Toyota/Lexus knows they need to have these cars to stay competetive.
TagMan
Toyota/Lexus is already competitve...
However, they know that they need to have those cars to build up its reputation and shut all those bashers up.
:P
In the performance arena? I don't think so. In fact, IMO, Toyota has been essentially absent and totally NON-competitive in that market.
But... very soon we are about to see them enter.
TagMan
link title
the upcoming X6...
the upcoming V-Series (a BMW version of the Mercedes R-Class)...
TagMan
Both hybrids and clean diesels!
Now that I have a personal interest in VW (just LOVE that GTI), and am a supporter of the company... this information is very interesting to me.
BTW, the vehicle pictured in the link is the upcoming Tiguan SUV.
Here's the story...
link title
TagMan
At least the V-series serves a purpose and it looks decent. I still don't get the X6.
If BMW really wants to enter the "people hauler" market they should consider buying Volvo before they mess up their reputation.
Well... it could be too late! It would appear that the X6 and the V-Series are already headed for production... and who knows what other monstrosities they've got up their sleeve?
TagMan
Eating itself alive. :sick:
DrFill
TagMan
I am pretty sure there are enough people in Michigan who's not a UAW member but will be glad to work for GM for half the pay of UAW workers.
If I am GM I'll take the advantage of this situation.
UAW is digging its own grave.
The government must love it, since they have plenty of broke, desperate individuals who have no other choice by to enlist!
Is it a c....o...n....spiracy (SHHH!) :surprise:
DrFill
In the near future auto enthusiasts are going to become as old fashioned as those people who still drive Crown Victoria drivers.
The Tesla may be the future for all performance cars.
Very few had demonstrated about such a tax since it is politically incorrect nowadays to pull the intravenous out of Mother Nature's arm. :sick:
Green taxing is the most effective type of taxing nowadays.
Well I disagree with your disagreement.
The XX-F autos are mere diversions. Just like the Supra and MR2 were diversions. Toyota is not about being the biggest athlete in the beach kicking sand on the faces of nerdy geeks.
Toyota instead is the likeable type on the beach with most friends and is always playing beach ball with the prettiest girls. When Toyota introduced luxury with the Lexus they introduced it in the form that Americans know best (comfortable, stellar services not too harsh and sporty). Toyota goes to Texas and they want to be liked by the Texans with their Tundras. Toyota ads always advertize how American Toyota is just like Toyota adverizes how European they are in Europe. Toyota advertizes to the world that they are the greenest car company on earth and I must say such advertisments are perfectly timed for today's concerns. They just want to be liked and fit in comfortably within the mainstream of their markets since that is where the volume is.
Agressiveness is not in Toyota's vocabulary. And Toyota high performance cars are all about agressiveness. That is why sport autos always ends up being nothing more than short term diversions at Toyota.
You are right about Toyota want to be likable in everywhere. They have tried very hard and done just that, that's how they become the number 1 auto maker in the world.
I am still skeptical about Toyota's commitment to performance due to its track record. However, at least in the Lexus end we can see it becoming more and more sportier. Even though this change is at a very slow pace but one can't deny that it's happening.
Toyota and Lexus are well established so now they can afford to explore the performance front. An in-established brand with 2 door performance cars is called boy-racer (see Honda in the 90s). An established brand with a good performance car is called benchmark (see BMW with the 3-series). Toyota/Lexus understood this very well...
So am I. When it comes to performance they're like people who wear traditional clothing and try to dabble with Italian fashions. They can never really allow themselves to identify with it and get comfortable with it. IMO the LF-A will be no more successful at selling than the NSX and it will be more shortlived.
'06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG • '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet • '04 Lexus RX330
The NSX was never shorlived, it was on the market for more than a decade. Although the sales figure wasn't spectacular but it gave Honda a performance brand image. That's what halo cars do and that's what the LF-A will become for Toyota/Lexus.
Pretty much Lexus is using the LF-A to send out a message to all the bashers: We can do it too so shut the *bip* up!
IS-F is pretty much the same but in a lesser degree.
The power output remained the same when the V8 went from 4.0L to 4.3L but torque output went up.
What some people just don't understand is that 400hp and a bodykit doesn't automatically = a great performance sedan. It takes so much time to do that... look at how long it's taken Audi and Mercedes-Benz to come out with cars that seriously threaten the M3. Something tells me Lexus may not be able to do this in one try. In fact, something tells me it's just not going to happen.
And, you want my personal opinion on the IS-F? They took a beautiful small sedan--the IS350--and ruined it. I don't know how they could've possibly made the performance version uglier, but they did it. The hood is terrible. The side intake and skirts look like afterthoughts. The stacked exhausts are tacky, a meager attempt at some individuality in the IS-F's overall representation of "me-too"-ness. I just need to know if there's going to be any reason to buy it over any other car in this class. Lexus may as well release the figures already. "400+ hp" and "an eight-speed automatic transmission" aren't enough any more.
'06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG • '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet • '04 Lexus RX330
'06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG • '05 Lexus RX330 • '04 Lexus RX330
If you think the IS-F is just an IS350 with a bigger engine and body kits then you are WRONG!
There are so much more to this car than just a souped up IS. The suspension has been re-worked, body re-enforced, retuned VDIM and a brand new transmission. I have been in the driver seat of a IS-F and this car can shift faster than most people could with a manual. Although it doesn't have a manual but somehow I don't see people knocking on the C63.
I don't think Lexus will seriously challenge the benchmark (M3) with the first try but it should give it a good run for the money. I don't see the problem of IS-F being an "alternative" in this segment. As matter of fact I welcome another alternative, more power to the buyers. I applaud to Lexus for not making a Lexus M3.
By the way, can you elaborated on the "me-too-ness" of the IS-F.
Two very different animals, one revered, one not so much.
I personally think one C63 is enough.
DrFill
link title
NY Times opened their archives just a few days ago. Before they used to charge a pretty penny for anyone who wanted to retrieve old articles.
I'd put it more as a "least prefered" language, but they can speak it fluently.
Toyota doesn't make "diversions" as much as weekend projects. Nothing long-term, but when they have no particluarly pressing matters going on.....
DrFill
If I only had a brain.... (Dances around in a circle)
They pulled those numbers from the C&D test. They're not exactly groundbreaking when it comes to Auto journalism.
DrFill
Turbochargers have long since proved themselves in trucks, but they are only now coming into wide use in automobiles. And, paradoxically, two of the more successful new examples are the epitome of blueblooded motordom.
With the added power - and weighing 180 pounds less than the sedan - the wagon performs better than many vehicles propelled by gasoline engines, and it does that while going more than 500 miles between fill-ups.
In fact the above description is about my quarter century old MB300D. It almost sounds like they're writing about the newest of new MB diesels of the 21st century. :P
link title
That's for sure! I think you are going to have to be in charge of "spin" control from now on.
TagMan
10. 2007 GMC Sierra Classic Hybrid 4WD: 16mpg
9. 2007 Chevrolet Silverado Classic 15 Hybrid: 16mpg
8. 2008 Lexus LS 600h L: 21mpg
7. 2007 Lexus GS 450h: 23mpg
6. 2007 Saturn Vue Hybrid: 26mpg
5. 2007 Toyota Highlander Hybrid: 26mpg
4. 2007 Lexus RX 400h 4WD: 26mpg
3. 2007 Honda Accord Hybrid: 27mpg
2. 2008 Saturn Aura Hybrid: 27mpg
1. 2008 Chevrolet Malibu Hybrid: 27mpg
link title
Hmmmm, EVERY Lexus hybrid model is on this list.
TagMan
That really has more to do with hybrid technology in general than just Lexus. It shows that the whole hybrid idea, except in cars like the Prius, Camry, and Civic, basically doesn't work. V6 hybrids don't work, and V8 hybrids really don't work.
The C63 has already proven itself. Like the RS4, it takes the AMG division to new heights in terms of driving involvement, handling and precision. The automatic transmission is what we're used to from them- I wasn't expecting a manual.
I half-heartedly hoped Lexus would use a manual, though. As fast as the automatic may be, it can never deliver the IS-F's full fun potential.
By the way, can you elaborated on the "me-too-ness" of the IS-F.
Well, I see you make a point of how much Lexus changed in this car. Of course, I knew all that. But everybody else has been doing the exact same thing. If they want the IS-F to stand out, at all, it needs to have something special. The RS4, M3 and C63 all hold that in their capabilities- an intangible passion is injected into the German vehicles that makes them so much fun to drive. The IS-F is still a giant blue question mark; no matter how much Lexus has done to it, nobody can know if it's any good to drive until it's properly tested.
'06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG • '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet • '04 Lexus RX330
Which leads me to question the point of the Lexus hybrids. I would definitely get a GS350 over a GS450h, and an LS460L over an LS600hL.
They may as well make diesels- they are really fuel efficient, without any sacrifice in performance. To me, they just make more sense than hybrids, used in luxury cars at least.
'06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG • '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet • '04 Lexus RX330