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I owned a 460L, was very dissatisfied; changed to a 450h and am delighted. The Lexus, unlike the Prius is apparently not intended to wow the owner with spectacular MPG. However, in my case MPG increased approximately 50% when changing to the 450h from the 460 for the same daily routine...and it is a much better performing vehicle...regardless what the magazines say.
So far, that's exactly right.
But, the different hybrid system that Porsche, for example, is working on will likely be more efficient... this will be due to its capability to assist the engine at high speeds as well as low speeds. That should make a reasonable improvement, but I still doubt it will get great mpg .
TagMan
8. 2008 Lexus LS 600h L: 21mpg
7. 2007 Lexus GS 450h: 23mpg
4. 2007 Lexus RX 400h 4WD: 26mpg
Hmmmm, EVERY Lexus hybrid model is on this list.
Yeah, fine, Hybrids don't offer great mpg. But your beloved diesels are arguably WORSE. Let's add a few data points to the discussion:
2008 Toyota Camry Hybrid: 34mpg, 0-60 7.7sec
2008 Mercedes-Benz E320 Bluetec: 26mpg, 0-60 6.8sec
2007 Lexus GS 450h: 23mpg, 0-60 5.5sec
2007 Lexus RX 400h 4WD: 26mpg, 0-60 7.5sec
2008 Mercedes-Benz ML320 CDI 4matic: 21mpg, 0-60 8.1sec
2008 Volkswagen Touareg TDI (V10): 17mpg, 0-60 7.4sec
All mpg figures from fueleconomy.gov (new EPA methodology). All 0-60 times from C&D, except Touareg time from autoexpress.co.uk.
Shocked?
It is just soooo easy to bash hybrids for "disappointing" mpg. Just remember to compare them to diesels, and take performance into account too! Then see what's "disappointing".
Put another way, Lexus makes a hybrid SUV that gets the same mpg as a vaunted MB Bluetec SEDAN!
If some of the germancarfans here ever bothered to check all the facts, maybe they'd stop bashing hybrids.
Sure Lexus is on the list. They would also be on the list for luxury hybrids that get the BEST gas mileage... because nobody else makes one. Duh.
Surely you are not so uninformed that you don't realize that Lexus makes LUXURY PERFORMANCE HYBRIDS, not econo-boxes.
I am not a big hybrib fan but posts like this are really ridiculous and show how uninformed some of our posters are.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
We used to be beautiful, baby. :confuse:
DrFill
2008 Mercedes-Benz ML320 CDI 4matic: 21mpg, 0-60 8.1sec
2008 Mercedes-Benz E320 Bluetec: 26mpg, 0-60 6.8sec
The answer is right here.
Lexus didn't even tune the RX for economy, but as a performance enhancement. The extra economy is a bonus!
Can Lexus take a bow?
I could make diesels look like ground chuck, vs a hybrid, but I know you guys are just messin'.
DrFill
I think you have misunderstood my intentions and are bashing me way too much over nothing.
Chill out and instead of getting on my case, post a point of view about the information... as I said, it was already an article on numerous car websites.
TagMan
2008 Mercedes-Benz E320 Bluetec: 26mpg, 0-60 6.8sec
It is more than a stretch to compare these 2 cars. The E-Class is a full size vs a mid-size Camry. Don't forget that you are giving up more additional room in the Camry trunk also, the mpg on the Camry is not without compromises.
2007 Lexus RX 400h 4WD: 26mpg, 0-60 7.5sec
2008 Mercedes-Benz ML320 CDI 4matic: 21mpg, 0-60 8.1sec
Even these 2 are a stretch. The MB is considerably larger in every interior and exterior measurement (interesting note- the Lexus website describes the MB's luggage capacity as 21cu.ft, on the fueleconomy.gov site, it is listed as 44cu.ft)
Final point is that MB is hardly maximizing the mpg potential of diesel with their US vehicles when compared to Toyota (less so against Lexus). Drop to I-4 sized engines and the mpg improves dramatically.
That said, those are some interesting numbers to put up there and are a good counterpoint to the pro-diesel group (which includes me). In truth anything that improves the potential mileage is a win for the consumer, environment and our efforts not to have oil manage our economy.
I'd hate to see that vehicle tuned for fuel economy.
Same goes for the RX and ML.
I agree with the other stuff.
DrFill
DrFill
2008 Mercedes-Benz E320 Bluetec: 26mpg, 0-60 6.8sec
It is more than a stretch to compare these 2 cars. The E-Class is a full size vs a mid-size Camry.
The fueleconomy.gov site categorizes both as midsize. E320 Bluetec 97 cu ft interior, 14 cu ft trunk, total 111. Camry hybrid 101 cu ft interior, 11 cu ft trunk, total 112. So not a strech comparison at all.
2007 Lexus RX 400h 4WD: 26mpg, 0-60 7.5sec
2008 Mercedes-Benz ML320 CDI 4matic: 21mpg, 0-60 8.1sec
Even these 2 are a stretch. The MB is considerably larger in every interior and exterior measurement
Yes the MB is larger, but it is the most direct available comparison. Given that the RX400h gets MUCH better mpg and significantly better acceleration, though, it would be hard to call this comparison a "win" for MB.
Final point is that MB is hardly maximizing the mpg potential of diesel with their US vehicles when compared to Toyota (less so against Lexus). Drop to I-4 sized engines and the mpg improves dramatically.
Yes, just as Lexus could put an I-4 in the GS or RX.
In truth anything that improves the potential mileage is a win for the consumer, environment and our efforts not to have oil manage our economy.
Agreed. To me, plug-in hybrid diesel represents car/suv mpg nirvana for the medium term. I'm unlikely to buy either hybrid or diesel in my 2008 round of purchases. But the round following will hopefully see plug-in diesel hybrids from all luxury competitors.
I will remain on perpetual spin motion with regards to the MB300d. Otherwise I would have disposed my 300D a long time ago.
A MB E is not comparable to a Camry just as a Camry is not comparable to a Lexus GS. Using stats to make comparisons is to say the least quite misleading unless someone who drives a MB E Class cannot distinguish it from a Camry. In that case that "someone" would be gullible enough to believe anything.
And the hyrbid Camry trunk space is pathetic. If you think 27 percent extra trunk space is not a stretch than I guess trunk space is not that important for you.
Sounds like you were taking sides against Lexus/Team Japan, so I had to go Terry Tate on your behind.
It's hurts me more than it hurts you.
Heavy is the head....
DrFill
It's not your fault.
DrFill
>> 0-62.137 miles (100km•h): 7.1 secs (BMW says)
>> averaged consume along 57,000 miles (77% highway&road, 23% town): 31 miles•gallon, USA units (highway&road: 37 miles•gallon; town: 20 miles•gallon) (jlbl averaged)
Jose
That's right, don't let the facts get in the way of clear thinking!
A "pure" comparison would be if Lexus took an E and replaced the drivetrain with a hybrid drivetrain sufficiently powerful to produce exactly the same acceleration. Not going to happen. But looking at the available factual evidence below, it isn't difficult to imagine the results.
2008 Toyota Camry Hybrid: 34mpg, 0-60 7.7sec
2008 Mercedes-Benz E320 Bluetec: 26mpg, 0-60 6.8sec
2007 Lexus GS 450h: 23mpg, 0-60 5.5sec
The E Bluetec is worse than the average of the mpg of the other 2 vehicles (which would be 28.5mpg), AND worse than the average acceleration of the other 2 vehicles (which would be 6.6sec).
What does that suggest to you?
The suggestion is conditional.
It is quite obvious that I prefer diesels but despite my preference I will likely buy a hybrid instead.
Why?
Because I am town dweller who does mainly city driving and that is where a hybrid consumes least petrol.
If I lived in the suburbs and did mainly highway driving I would choose a MB Blutec or BMW diesel over any hybrid. Diesel highway mileage is the strength of Blutec.
This diesel vs. hybrid argument is conditonal on what kind of driving you do. Unconditionally there is no such thing as diesels or hybrids being better than each others.
>> 0-62.137 miles (100km•h): 7.1 secs (BMW says)
>> averaged consume along 57,000 miles (77% highway&road, 23% town): 31 miles•gallon, USA units (highway&road: 37 miles•gallon; town: 20 miles•gallon) (jlbl averaged)
Thanks for that. I've tried to estimate what 2008 EPA mpg would be for an AT BMW 530d (available in Europe). I looked at the BMW UK site and found that the 530i (equivalent to the 528i in the US, as far as I can tell) gets a combined 36.7mpg, which is 1.748x the EPA number of 21mpg (a difference due both to differing units and differing testing methodology). Applying the same 1.748x factor to the UK website mpg for the 530d yields an estimate of EPA 25mpg. So:
2008 Toyota Camry Hybrid: 34mpg, 0-60 7.7sec
2008 Mercedes-Benz E320 Bluetec: 26mpg, 0-60 6.8sec
2008? BMW 530d: 25mpg (est), 0-62 6.8 sec (BMW UK)
2007 Lexus GS 450h: 23mpg, 0-60 5.5sec
I think this is a great point. I drive 80% highway and so hte hybrid drive-train would be little more than additional weight.
Additionally it seems a shame that the two have to be seen as rivals. The real comparison should be against gassers since both of these are designed as alternatives to the gasser, not to each other.
Exactly, so why are we knocking on it before it gets a chance to prove itself? :confuse:
What should Lexus do to make the IS-F special? It is pretty much a factory tuner car just like the RS4, C63 and M3. BMW, MB and Audi didn't do anything "special" to their own version except drop a new engine, different tranny, suspension tuned differently and re-enforced the body rigidity. Which, by the way, Lexus did it too to the IS-F. If you have different ideas for the IS-F I'd love to hear. The only thing that the "big 3" have the IS-F doesn't is reputation, which will take time and a few good cars to earn.
If people don't think MB not offering a manual tranny in its AMG models is a big deal then I don't think Lexus not offering one in the -F cars is one either. I just don't like the idea of using "double standard" to judge anything.
To doc: I think IS-F's main competitor is the C63 as I said before. 4-door vs 4-door and auto vs auto, this is a perfect comparison in the making for all the auto mags.
Gosh, Doc, I guess if Car & Driver wrote an article that wasn't favorable to Lexus, you'd blame me if I posted it?
I don't have any regrets for posting an article that listed the top 10 least efficient hybrids. That's a reasonable post as far as I'm concerned. Your only beef is that every Lexus hybrid is on the list. So get over it.
Besides, it stimulated some interesting discussion.
Hybrids do represent a better advantage in city driving than highway driving... and when you take a closer look at the numbers, you can compare them to other powertrain alternatives.
Like I pointed out, Lexusguy was smart to point out that hybrid technology (so far) works best with smaller engines. But that is not to say that they don't work with larger engines as well. It just means that the ultra-high city gas mileage comes from smaller engine hybrids.
Dewey has also realized that when it comes to city driving, the hybrid might represent an advantage over the diesel powertrain.
Now, from my perspective, we will still have to wait and see how the next generation of small diesels will rate, but I think it is a safe bet that we will see better fuel economy from the small-engine hybrids in city numbers.
For overall fuel-economy that includes highway, and when factoring in ultra-longevity, the diesel can have the advantage. Yesterday, a business rep that came to my office was driving a pristine 300D that had 600,000 miles on it!!!! Do you think hybrid batteries could last that long?
So, it really depends upon the driving situation, as Dewey smartly pointed out. If it's going to be strictly city driving and if ownership will terminate before the batteries expire, then it makes sense to go hybrid.
However, it really could make economic sense to go with a moderate sized diesel if the driving style includes highway driving and if vehicle ownership is expected to be very long term.
Now... get off my back before I put one of Michael Vick's dogs on ya.
TagMan
To deliver V8 power with V6 FE (GS450h).
To deliver V12/V10 power with V8 FE (LS600h).
with a smaller trunk :P
I know I've said all these before but I'll keep repeating myself when people decided to keep knocking on the Lexus hybrids without any new argument. Someone has to set the record straight here...
This hybrid technology works best with a small engine talk is so frigging pointless. Guess what? Diesel also produces best FE with a smaller engine. As matter of fact, even gasoline engine gets best FE with smaller engines.
WHAT IS THE POINT HERE?
I do agree that hybrids work best with city driving and diesel is ideal for highway commute (NOT in LA though). If the driving is 50-50 then I believe hybrids will still come out on top. How to increase highway FE should be the next biggest breakthrough with the hybrid technology.
Of course smaller engines in GENERAL deliver better fuel economy than larger engines. That's a no-brainer. That's not the point.
But, would you really want a 3-cylinder tiny gas engine with no power to deliver the kind of mileage that a larger-engine hybrid can deliver? Of course not.
So, there is merit to the comparison of powertrains and their benefits to city driving as opposed to highway driving.
Additionally, there is merit to the comparison of powertrains and their benefits as they pertain to longevity and driving dynamics.
As a result, there are comparisons between the different powertrains with regards to performance that can be made as well that we haven't discussed here at any length yet, but it is clear that there could be some drivers that would LOVE the low-end torque provided by the diesel alternative, and love it enough to sacriffice a little of the mpg difference.
Dewey was correct when he suggested that the type of driving one does is a large determining factor in choosing between the different powertrains. But that doesn't just mean city vs. highway. The type of driving should also include the STYLE of driving. I have also suggested that the length of ownership is also a determining factor... because extended ownership of the diesel alternative could easily outlive the hybrid's batteries multiple times over... so do the math on that one and it's obvious which is the better choice in that situation.
TagMan
TM
My biggest reason for supporting diesel (other than the nature of my commute) is that I believe that those engines will prove out with greater longevity. I am ,though, the most conservative car-fan I know.
That is exactly why I posted about the account rep that I saw yesterday with a pristine 300D that has clocked over 600,000 miles!! The car was in unbelievble condition! Now... my guess is that in a hybrid, there would have to be a few battery replacements to achieve that 600,000 miles! The cost of those battery replacements would more than destroy any savings at the pump.
Perhaps the best way to use a hybrid succesfully is to lease one short term and use it mostly in the city.
A diesel, on the other hand, is probably best for someone that wants low-end torque, drives both city and highway, and plans on keeping the car for many many years.
I can't imagine just how much money that owner of the 300D must have saved... not just in terms of fuel, but more impressively by not having to acquire another car for 600,000 miles of use so far. WOW!
As you know, I really like diesel too. But I have been on record to say that I see the potential merits of hybrids under certain conditions.
TagMan
Hey, hey, hey! I don't need any dead dogs in my bed or anything. That's not cool, Tag. :P
That article is silly, regardless of who wrote it or where it came from. The reason why is simple.
It's like taking the Forbes Richest 400, start counting backwards, and calling it "The Forbes Poorest 400 Billionaires".
All of those cars either outperform, are more efficient than, or are both faster and more efficient than their gas counterparts. The larger hybrids will not save the same level of gas, but may produce more power than a Civic or Prius, so the objectives change, depending on the application.
What's next, "The Top 5 Stupidest MIT Valedictorians."? :confuse:
DrFill
So the list could have been called "the 10 below-average-mpg hybrids, idiotically not taking into account the size or performance of the vehicle".
I love the idea of a modern, quiet, powerful, diesel but I do not believe they will ever be as quiet, powerful, and buttery smooth as the best gasoline engines, plus they cost more. Their advantage is longevity and fuel economy.
As for longevity, I will probably never keep any car long enough to log even 100,000 miles. Some might, I won't.
As for fuel economy, that is really a very small part of the total cost of owning a car. That plus the fact that when I filled up this morning, regular gas at my local station was $2.57, prem. was $2.77 and diesel was...drum roll... $3.20!
So, in my neck of the woods diesel is almost 25% higher than regular gas. That pricing disparity almost completely eliminates the mpg advantage of diesel.
Looks like we will have some tough choices to make.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
As would I. The "performance hybrid" idea still doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Both the 450h and the 600hL are no different than the Honda Accord hybrid. It was a bit faster and a bit more fuel efficient than the EX-V6 - for a lot more money. Unsurprisingly, it was a huge dud.
I think the upcoming Audi Q3 2.0TDi with 200hp and 295ft.lbs of torque is going to absolutely humiliate the Escape hybrid, both in 0-60 and fuel economy.
I am, however, not OK with houdini posting "stupid post" instead of saying "stupid article, IMO".
I actually thought that the mileage on those hybrids was interesting enough to post because we generally associate hybrids with good fuel economy. Those hybrid pickup trucks were a joke, IMO.
The fact that every Lexus hybrid is on the list isn't insignificant, and the article referenced that point.
I still maintain that it points to the fact that hybrid technology doesn't seem to be of much help to larger engines at this present time.
Porsche's new approach MAY change that, but it is still to be seen.
Bottom line for me is that I'll post what I think might have some interest. Obviously, some posters will be more interested than others.
No need to get personal, though. Afterall, why are we all here? To exchange ideas and opinions and share information... Not to beat up on each other... ANYONE can do that... but what good does it contribute to the forum?
Just go over to AutoSpies and read the way some of those posters treat each other now and then. It's absolutely horrible!
TagMan
That's because they aren't true hybrids. They just have big alternators, as I understand it.
Is that the case? I had thought they were watered-down versions of Honda's approach... IMA (integrated motor assist). But, I'm not really sure.
TagMan
Yeah, it's not just cut and dry. You will have to weigh out your own priorities.
That's why I didn't continue to wait for a diesel when I bought the GTI. I got an incredible price (know the owner of the dealership) and the mileage is rated, IIRC, 22/29 with the DSG. It's not a hybrid or a diesel, and the mileage is reasonable enough for me at this time, and it drives like a bat out of hell.
Over the next two years, when the selection of diesels and hybrids expands, it will be easier to make choices that fit our needs.
And besides, it's possible that in two years, the price of gas and diesel fuel could be very different than they are today.
But, if diesel is 25 % higher, and the diesel vehicles only deliver 35% improvement, then that 10% difference might not be worth it to you.
You and I have always posted and agreed that we must FIRST like the vehicle itself. After that, we look at the powertrain alternatives and make a decision. I think that still makes sense!
TagMan
I'm not sure either, you or anyone else is welcome to look into it further. But I'm more sure that the pickups were termed in the industry "mild" hybrids. I'm not of the opinion that they should even have been included on the list.
I did not use the words "stupid post" at all, you did. :P What I said was "dumb post". If it will make you feel better I will add "dumb article".
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Performance Hybrids for this class of car is as senseless as expensive bottled tap water (Aquafina).
It's all about cachet and standing out.
A environmentally friendly hybrid Porsche driver is as sensible as the person who buys expensive sparkling French or Italian water and feels really good with himself.
There was a marketing survey done recently(I had posted it here months ago) that indicates most hybrid drivers key focus is how they appear to others. What about the Environment or Greedy Oil? Naaah, forget it! Its what their neighbors think that is most important.
What is the point of a hybrid Porsche anyways? The hybrid weight kills its driving dynamics. And what is a Porsche without driving dynamics? A Non-Porsche?
If I intend to buy a hybrid it will be a Prius or Camry and as a pleasure car I will continue owning a very smooth politically incorrect gas consuming performance car since I really dont give a damned about appearances(otherwise I would of sold our environmentally unfriendly MB 300D years ago).
So who the hell burns money on bottled water anyways? I am fortuanate enought unlike billions of people to have access to clean chlorinated tap water without any risks of typhoid or cholera. ANd for some reason which I cant understand the same people who live in my city choose environmentally damaging plastic bottle water instead?
I have a hunch that most hybrid drivers are bottled water drinkers . Remember that study on the environmental costs of a hybrid being worse than a Hummer. The study sounds like a hoax but when you read its methodology you find out that its not a hoax at all.
I guess appearances are everything for a performance hybrid buyer who also happens to drink bottled water . But the reality is that both hybrids and bottle water are not good for the environment.
We still drive our MB 300D on long highway stretches because of its great fuel efficiency.
Although I am still 300K miles away from the 600K miles that Tagman's acquantance had accumulated with his MB 300D.
These cars are a testament of how good diesels really are especially on highways.
How many people in 2032 will continue driving their 07 hybrid Lexusus? How many 600K mile Lexus hybrid will there be by then?
9. 2007 Chevrolet Silverado Classic 15 Hybrid: 16mpg
2007 GMC Sierra 4WD 5.3L V8: 16mpg
2007 Chevy Silverado 5.3L V8: 17mpg
2007 Ford F150 5.4L V8: 15mpg
2007 Dodge Ram 1500 5.7L V8: 15mpg
2007 Toyota Tundra 5.7L V8: 16mpg
8. 2008 Lexus LS 600h L: 21mpg
2007 Lexus LS460: 20mpg
2007 BMW 760Li: 15mpg
2007 BMW 750i: 18mpg
2007 MB S600: 13mpg
2007 MB S550: 17mpg
2007 Audi A8 4.2L: 18mpg
2007 Audi A8 6.0L: 15mpg
7. 2007 Lexus GS 450h: 23mpg
2007 Lexus GS350: 22mpg
2007 MB E550: 16mpg
2007 MB E350: 19mpg
2007 BMW 550i: 18mpg
2007 BMW 530i: 22mpg
2007 Audi A6 4.2L: 18mpg
6. 2007 Saturn Vue Hybrid: 26mpg
2007 Saturn Vue V6: 19mpg
2007 Toyota RAV4 V6: 21mpg
2007 Ford Escape V6: 19mpg
5. 2007 Toyota Highlander Hybrid: 26mpg
2007 Toyota Highlander V6: 19mpg
2007 Honda Pilot: 17mpg
2007 Nissan Murano: 19mpg
4. 2007 Lexus RX 400h 4WD: 26mpg
2007 BMW X5 4.8i: 16mpg
2007 MB ML350: 17mpg
2007 MB ML500: 14mpg
2007 Infiniti FX35: 17mpg
2007 Infiniti FX45: 15mpg
2007 Acura MDX: 17mpg
3. 2007 Honda Accord Hybrid: 27mpg
2. 2008 Saturn Aura Hybrid: 27mpg
1. 2008 Chevrolet Malibu Hybrid: 27mpg
2007 Toyota Camry Hybrid: 34mpg
2007 Nissan Altima Hybrid: 34mpg
2007 Honda Accord V6: 21mpg
2007 Toyota Camry V6: 23mpg
2007 Nissan Altima V6: 22mpg
2007 Saturn Aura V6: 21mpg
2007 Chevy Malibu V6: 19mpg
2007 Hyundai Sonata V6: 21mpg
2007 Ford Fusion V6: 21mpg
I think the list sums it up pretty well...
OMG, houdini, the article itself used the words, "In fact, all of Lexus’ hybrids appear on the list."
You are splitting hairs on this one, and you know it.
TagMan
2008 Mercedes-Benz E320 Bluetec: 26mpg, 0-60 6.8sec
2008? BMW 530d: 25mpg (est), 0-62 6.8 sec (BMW UK)
2007 Lexus GS 450h: 23mpg, 0-60 5.5sec
As I had pointed out previously this list makes no sense whatsoever.
Not only is a Camry not comparable to an E Class but the hybrid Lexus GS price differential is humoungous compared to a non-hybrid GS350 while diesel E Class price differnetial is insignificant compared to a non-diesel E Class version.
In otherwords diesels makes economic sense if fuel savings is a consideration while that is certainly not the case with a hybrid GS.
I think GM gains a whole 2 MPG with their Malibu Hybrid. :surprise:
Joy!
DrFill
Apples and oranges, and you know it.
Lexus set up the 450h as a performance upgrade, as you would a V8. That was the whole idea. Not to save gas (necessarily). Not to compete with the V6 for volume. :mad:
DrFill
Doc on the post before that I blabbered on (probably a bit too much rambling about bottled water) about how senseless performance hybrids are.
A V8 performance on the GS450H?
Show me one road test review that indicated the GS450H is a better car than a comparable V8 BMW 5 Series or V8 MB E Class? :P
C'mon who are you trying to fool with that V8 performance stuff?
This is not a Jim Press Toyota Press Conference. There is no need for Corporate Spin here.
I favor diesels, and believe that they will in the long run provide a better driving experience. great fuel economy, and unbeatable longevity.
If hybrid technology were to improve, then I would be open-minded to considering it. But as it is today, it doesn't interest me. And, I'm not about to buy a Prius or Camry.
I'm still convinced that within two years, we will see diesel alternatives that will be very compelling, and we will see them in vehicles we would actually like to own.
TagMan
As I've posted already, it is too early to know what the Porsche system will really provide in terms of performance and fuel economy. We will see if they prove that performance and hybrid can go hand in hand.
One thing for sure... so far I haven't seen it.
TagMan