By accessing this website, you acknowledge that Edmunds and its third party business partners may use cookies, pixels, and similar technologies to collect information about you and your interactions with the website as described in our
Privacy Statement, and you agree that your use of the website is subject to our
Visitor Agreement.
Comments
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
That said, I don't think we could beat this to death any more if we tried!
Now we can all kiss and be friends again, yes? :P
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
But the powertrain does hold up it's end. The 450h IS as fast as the V8 Germans, and is more efficient.
So it isn't totally worthless.
DrFill
Hehe...
The GS350 obviously has ramifications......
Lexus is pretty lost when it comes to the GS.
DrFill
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
After all is said and done, you and I are still waiting for the same thing.
TagMan
• Range Rover Sport HSE (gas mileage)
• A8 SWB (she got tired of it)
• S550 4Matic (too big)
• LS460 (doesn't want another Lexus; it's also RWD, which I wouldn't trust her with)
• Cayenne S (again, gas mileage)
• XJ8 (RWD, image- I love it but it needs a redesign)
Which leaves us with the X5, 535xi, ML and E350 4Matic. I'm thinking she definitely won't end up with an ML, as it's just slightly bland. The 535xi was very impressive when we drove it, although she isn't sure about getting a sedan. The X5 felt a bit heavy, she said, and overwhelmed by the V6, which leaves me waiting for the 3.0d- 4.8i is too thirsty. The E350 4Matic... it's very elegant and such, but not particularly impressive. The new E-Class is coming in a year, anyway.
Any ideas?
'06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG • '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet • '04 Lexus RX330
It strikes me as a time of transition... a time to wait.
I agree the ML is bland, and I can tell you that the GL550 is too clumsy and too thirsty, which surprised me when we tested it.
You seem possibly open to both sedans and SUVs, which can be a big help. If you are open to a sedan, then the BMW 5-Series should be looked at closely again, the E-class, even the 3-series and the all-new C-Class.
The new X5 is really nice looking, IMO, but seems pricey once it's equipped properly, but that may not matter too much if you are careful that you don't go overboard with unnecessary options. But, it is a heavy vehicle, as you indicated. But I think you might be on to something with regards to the X5 coming in with a diesel soon. That could be a sweet vehicle!
Then there's the VW Toureg, but it's related to the Cayenne... yet there is something very nice about it, and it's got a surprising interior if you haven't ever noticed.
I guess you don't want another Audi A3.
Have you considered the Audi S4 Avant? or RS4 sedan?
And what about the new Lexus RX?
If you wait long enough, you will be looking at the same vehicles that Lexusguy and I will be scoping out in the new smaller SUV category.
So... what's next on your list to check out?
TagMan
We ruled out the X5 because it was going to be way too much money, and I don't particularly like the ML. It is bland, and also too heavy. Until the rest of the entries make their debut, the X3 3.0 is still the compact lux-ute to beat. It's quick, comfortable, has decent space, and the fuel economy isn't too terrible, about 22mpg.
As far as sedans, how about an A6 4.2, Volvo S80 V8 AWD, or Infiniti M35\45x? I'd rather have a 335xi or C350 4Matic than a 5 or E.
Q7 (3.6 gets ok mpg, 16)
E wagon, 18mpg
5 wagon, 19mpg
My congested city driving routes makes a hybrid quite compelling. I would consider a future hybrid if they are lighter and provide more value in the future. At this stage they dont and that is why I chose two cars with traditional gasoline drivetrains.
A V6 + electrical motor equals less performance than a V8
A V8 + electrical motor equals less performance thatn a V12
Hybrids are bogged down by weight and that is why road test reviews favor a V8 or V12 over a hybrid V6 or V8.
Saving gas and low emissions is the key reason for luxury performance hybrids. But IMO if I want to save gas and lower emission I would not be buying a luxury performance car in the first place . In my case I would buy a perforance car solely for its performance.
Lexus is unlikely to launch a sub-$30,000 model in the U.S. but that doesn’t mean it won’t develop a new entry-level model for other markets. One possibility is Europe, where small cars like BMW’s 1-series hatch and Mercedes A and B-Class sell in substantial numbers. Toyota exec Tokuichi Uranishi has revealed that Lexus could develop a new entry-level model for Europe to help reach its European sales target of 150,000 vehicles by 2015.
During an interview with Auto Motor und Sport, Uranishi explained that for Lexus to become a true rival to Mercedes-Benz and BMW, it has to strengthen its standing in Europe and to do so it will need to expand its product portfolio.
Lexus is already confirmed to launch the upcoming LF-1 flagship coupe as well as a hybrid only model and possibly a seven-seater crossover, which should see its market share in Europe rise considerably. This year, Lexus hopes to sell 56,000 vehicles in Europe, a fraction of its global target of half a million vehicles.
link title
Also, with the 1-series arriving this spring and A- and B-class coming in the near future I am sure Lexus is keeping a close eye on how will the market react. If both are successful then I have doubt we'll see a Lexus 1-fighter within the next 5 years. If not then Lexus won't miss out much...
Totally agree and have essentially done the same thing.
TagMan
TagMan
TagMan
And I'll bet that if it wears a Lexus badge, it would NEVER be under $30K.
TagMan
I'm not so sure. The IS is still pretty tiny. Infiniti is working on a new car to slot below the G35, but the G is 7" longer than the IS. Rear seat room in the IS is already coupe-like, how much smaller can they go and still expect Americans to fit inside?
A smaller Lexus may be perfect for recent US immigrants who have not been exposed long enough to US cuisine and desserts.
Interesting point. Some cars are clearly better designed to accomodate rear seat passengers than others. It's a give-and-take to gain rear passenger room in a small car.
From a personal perspective, my GTI is a 4-door with a rear hatch body style. It seats five, but let me assure you that 4 full-sized American male adults can easily and comfortably fit in the car without any compromise to the rear passengers. It's downright comfy back there.
Although I need to check this one myself, the word is that the new C-Class can fit rear passengers comfortably.
So why is the Lexus IS so tight in the rear?
TagMan
I think this new 1 series type Lexus will provide some competition that the Germans dont have. And that would be a small hyrbid Lexus.
Just imagine a Lexus that is more fuel efficient than a Prius and also has the luxuries and technology gizmos that a Prius does not have. Also being a Lexus there may be the possibility of a hybrid system that is more expensive and lighter than a Prius. Such a hybrid would be light enough to be considered a sporty handler.
The most advanced hybrid technology exclusively sold only in Lexuses maybe the Holy Grail for Lexus. Spending Big Bucks to save a few more MPG may be equivalent to spending Big Bucks for a performance car that saves a few decimal points of a second in terms of acceleration.
TagMan
IS:
Wheelbase (in.): 107.50
Length (in.): 180.10
Front Leg Room (in.): 43.90
3-series:
Wheelbase (in.): 108.70
Length (in.): 178.20
Front Leg Room (in.): 41.5
G35:
Wheelbase (in.): 112.20
Length (in.): 187.00
Front Leg Room (in.): 43.90
C-class:
Wheelbase (in.): 108.70
Length (in.): 182.30
Front Leg Room (in.): 41.70
Granted the current IS is still tiny (however much roomier compare to the previous gen) but if Lexus is bringing over the 1-fighter I can see that the next IS will grow in size tremendously.
That just means the seat track is positioned to go a little further back before it stops. If the front seat was adjusted forward to the same distance as the others, the rear legroom would still be cramped in the IS.
As an example, a Mini Cooper has a very respectable 41.3 inches of front legroom. (just about the same as a BMW 3-series.) When set to that position there is virtually no functional legroom for rear passengers.
TagMan
I had given lots of evidence and reasoning for my argument, but only a few would agree. The Doc thought I was out of my mind for such an idea.
Interestingly, as we now see BMW and its 1-series, suddenly the news is that Lexus has a 1-series chaser. Well, if that isn't even more evidence that Lexus has BMW in it's scope, than I don't know what is.
TagMan
Here's a little more info about the hybrid Tahoe and Yukon that will surprise you. It's now tweaked to get the mileage of a non-hybrid Camry!
link title
TagMan
However, product wise, Lexus is still more align with MB. I can see more people cross shop MB and Lexus, even Cadillac and Lexus than say BMW and Lexus. Infiniti, on the other hand, is a whole different story. Lexus can aim at BMW all they want but until they can convince the folks that they are dedicated to produce performance luxury cars they'll always be tagged as luxury cars that go fast.
I personally don't want Lexus to become another BMW, I'll just get an Infiniti if I want a cheaper BMW alternative. I would love to see Lexus becomes the perfect balance right between BMW (performance) and MB (luxury). Right now Lexus is about 2/3 MB and 1/3 BMW, the best balance IMO is 3/5 BMW and 2/5 MB. Hopefully that'll be the case with the next generation of Lexus cars.
V6 Camry is at 23 mpg combined.
Again, this is another example of V8 power with V6 FE. If the GS450h is not getting props for doing exactly the same thing almost 2 years ago then I don't know why this is.
Glad you see it my way. Quite a ways back, I went through some unbelievable arguments and debates to convince some of the posters. To me, it has become obvious... as it seems to be to you as well. Cool.
TagMan
Well, the difference as I understand it is that the Tahoe and Yukon hybrids are achieving a near 50% improvement over the non-hybrids, according to the article. Did the GS achieve that kind of improvement?
TagMan
5.3L V8 Tahoe: 17 mpg combined / 14 mpg city
Hybrid Tahoe: 21 mpg combined / 21 mpg city
(21 - 17) / 17 = 23.5% (combined)
(21 - 14) / 14 = 50.0% (city)
4.3L V8 GS430: 19 mpg combined / 16 mpg city
GS450h: 23 mpg combined / 22 mpg city
(23 - 19) / 19 = 21% (combined)
(22 - 16) / 16 = 37.5% (city)
The GS450h on the other hand has 17% more horsepower than the GS430.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's the latest point of using hybrids in gas guzzlers... to increase the fuel economy.
TagMan
Now who could that be ?
At this stage Lexus should follow its own path to success and no one else's. BMW is a fine company but Lexus certainlly does not need to imitate BMW to be a success. Lexus is big enough to redefine the luxury performance segment without emulating BMW or any other auto company.
BMW was at the brink of bankruptcy back in the early 60s (or late 50's). They tried so so hard to be like Mercedes Benz that anyone who wanted a Benz just bought a Benz instead of a BMW. So what did BMW do more than 40 years ago? They decided to imitate no one and redefine the premium auto segment towards performance instead. BMW became a performance car company that designed far more agressive cars than Benz so that if someone wanted a sporty sedan they chose BMW over a Benz. BMW succeeded by doing it their own way and the success of Lexus will be dependent on them doing it in their own distinct way.
During 1990 Lexus proved that MB quality and luxury can exist at significantly lower price. During the mid 90s Lexus introduced an RX that just happened to be the first luxury CUVs ever. And now Lexus is introducing hybrids which MB and other European automakers are eager to mimic.
Lexus just like BMW did decades ago is trying to redefine luxury without trying to imitate no one. That is what makes a truly successful company.
TagMan
It's more than a tweak, it's a new powertrain.
2007 Chevrolet Silverado C15 2WD (5.3 liter): 17mpg
2007 Chevrolet Silverado Classic 15 Hybrid 2WD (5.3 liter): 17mpg
...ZERO mpg improvement with the old GM mild hybrid!
2008 GMC Yukon 1500 2WD (5.3 liter): 16 mpg
2008 GMC Yukon hybrid 2WD (6.0 liter): 21.5mpg
(per your linked article)
...34 PERCENT mpg improvement, despite a 13% displacement bump
2 points to make:
1. This should dispel the notion that hybrid tech (at least GM's) is somehow incapable of working well with heavy vehicles
2. If the technology were used with the same 5.3 liter engine as in the gas-only Yukon, I imagine that the percentage improvement in mpg would be greater than for any diesel vs gas comparison.
Here is a review of the new Yukon hybrid: link title
Hopefully Toyota/Lexus will catch up (or surpass) what GM has done here, and soon.
BTW:
2008 Mercedes-Benz GL320 CDI 4matic: 20mpg
2008 Volkswagen Touareg V10 TDI: 17mpg
Despite the Yukon hybrid being MUCH larger than the Tourareg, and its engine displacing 20% more, it gets better mpg!
Diesel vs hybrid? I think it is looking worse and worse for diesel, comparatively speaking, as the young technology represented by hybrid continues to improve. But ultimately, as I've said before, many of us will be driving diesel hybrids.
KUDOS to GM!
Lexus is competing in the same segments as BMW
IS - 3 Series
GS - 5 Series
LS - 7 Series
and soon a 1 Series.
But within each segment Lexus caters to a very different clientele than BMW. As Louiswei had said if Lexus tries too hard to compete with BMW they will become Infiniti. And that I think is not what a Lexus customer really wants.
We're not behind Toyota, those GM officials insisted. We just have a different strategy.
I'd say, GM is moving AHEAD of Toyota in hybrid tech.
Some of you guys who've been waiting for a diesel luxury SUV maybe ought to be waiting for a hybrid Escalade instead!
That'll be the day. LOL!
DrFill
Reminds me of a song. Like a hit here it goes:
"Still crazy, after all these years...."
Thank you very much! :P
Maybe I don't read too good, but the last 40 posts didn't reveal any plans for a Lexus 1-series here in America, nor should they.
Pigs may fly before that happens. A $30k prodcut glot of 3 sub $35k vehicles, not including any future SUV below the growing RX, would be........stupid.
The 1-series is a great idea, and works directly to the heritage of the 2002, which is great. I'm all for it. Making a Lexus there is not happening, any more than making a TSX competitor is happening.
Lexus is NOT "targeting BMW", any more than BMW is targeting Lexus with the X5. Mercedes and BMW both make sports sedans, that are quite successful at attracting a large market, so Lexus can grab some sales there too.
When Lexus makes a IS350 with a stick, or brings a 1-series competitior here, then you have an arguement.
Until then your "Still crazy, after all these years...."
Thank you very much!
DrFill
Just glad that ain't my detail!
The new CTS seems to be a mixed bag, as it was before, regardless of the "Best Cadillac Ever" quote, which means what, I don't know.
DrFill