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Comments
Aint she a beauty.
A 2010 Blutec hybrid MB E300.
Also coming in 2010 is the E300 Bluetec hybrid. Combining clean diesel and hybrid technology the electric E will apparently emit only 134g/km, a figure more commonly associated with small hatchbacks.
BTW, as a fellow Porsche owner... whatcha got?
TagMan
Good work.
TagMan
No Porsches
As of today I refuse to buy any car that stirs my andrenalin. A MB300 Blutec hyrbid is as exciting a car as I will ever get.
Why? Because I live in Toronto, Ontario. With my record of getting caught by patrol cops these new laws aren't good news at all:
Speeding law has teeth that really bite
Mark Richardson
Wheels Editor
Oct 06, 2007
The message this week is very clear: There's no room on Ontario's highways for "extreme" driving. The law was beefed up last weekend to throw the book at speeders, racers and stunters.
As of writing this column on Wednesday evening, more than 100 drivers have had their vehicles impounded for seven days with all the towing and storage costs that includes, plus probable fines of at least $2,000 and an automatic seven-day licence suspension.
And that doesn't include the real cost of a massive hike in insurance premiums that will last for several years of obedient, careful driving, and stay pretty much forever if drivers don't reform their ways. A second conviction within 10 years could mean a second licence suspension of 10 years.
OUCH!!! :sick:
So, you live outside of Boston. I lived in Brockton until late in 1970 when I moved to the Midwest. Brockton High was one of the largest high schools in the nation. I have been hearing horror stories about a serious crime rate in Brockton for the past 10 years or more.
Syswei was so persuasive about hyrbids that both of us will end up owing one.(at least in the form of a hybrid diesel)
I think that you mentioned a 911 in your garage? I can only imagine how much you are enjoying it.
Brockton has had its ups and downs. it is actually rebounding currently with investment in the downtown and in residential real estate. But you will not find many cars that we are discussing in town. I believe that it is still the largest High School east of the Mississippi river.
Yes, an '07 Carrera S Cab.
Cayman S, huh?... very nice. I love the Cayman S, as I did have a Boxster previously... but the Cayman S, while a derivative of the Boxster, is the better driver and the better looker, IMO. What color grabbed your wallet?
With our great weather, the convertible just makes sense for me, and the back seats in the 911 are a bonus for the kids on rare occassion.
But, I doubt I'm having any more fun than you when it comes to driving a Porsche. :shades:
TagMan
My friend, after an enjoyable evening at The Grist Mill/Wobbly Barn jumped into his his Nissan Pathfinder, engaged 4wd and attempted to drive up Outer Limits (Killington). Needless to say, even with his meaty all-terrain tires and 4WD, he didn't get very far...
I've driven FWD all of my life with all-seasons. Given decently plowed roads or only a few inches of snow, I've arrived without incident. A lot of common sense and some familiarity with driving in the snow always helps, too...
'21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)
What would you have liked me to do? Compare the hybrids to cars that don't compete? It only made sense. I could bring up the European specs on hybrids, too, if you like...
German manufacturer data:
E420 CDI: 0-100kph, 6.1sec; fuel consumption 9.3 liters/100km combined
GS450h: 0-100kph, 5.9sec; fuel consumption 7.9 liters/100km combined
I have a few rebuttals here: Lexus always gives the exact times for their cars, or in some cases, they're actually quicker than what is normally achieved. While this looks like a normal time for the GS450h... Mercedes-Benz has understated the E420 CDI's time. It can get 0-60mph in the mid-5's, which is right there with the GS450h.
Also, I just converted the E420 CDI's fuel economy figures to MPG. It would get just over 30. This is better than the GS450h's USA-quoted 26.5MPG average.
Although I could not find as-tested figures for the E-Class, I found a British spec sheet on the GS450h, and using your own conversion, it turns out to be about 23mpg.
Overall, although it may not beat the GS450h in a straight line, it will handle better, be more practical and get significantly better mileage.
'06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG • '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet • '04 Lexus RX330
Who doesn't give exact times for their cars? :confuse:
Also, Lexus' 0-60 times are certified by AMCI so it's neither "over-estimated" or "under-estimated". It's really not the manufacture's fault if there are testers who can't duplicate the factory number.
Also, I just converted the E420 CDI's fuel economy figures to MPG. It would get just over 30. This is better than the GS450h's USA-quoted 26.5MPG average.
Why did you compare the E420 CDI's GERMAN FE to GS450h's US FE when clearly syswei already provided its GERMAN FE. If you want to compare the two at least make it an apple to apple comparison, otherwise I may have to be forced to think that you are spinning the facts.
Overall, although it may not beat the GS450h in a straight line, it will handle better, be more practical and get significantly better mileage.
Yes, moot and I don't think so.
DrFill
E420 CDI: 0-100kph, 6.1sec; fuel consumption 9.3 liters/100km combined
GS450h: 0-100kph, 5.9sec; fuel consumption 7.9 liters/100km combined
I have a few rebuttals here
On the mpg I just don't see what there is to rebut. These are based on a German test regimen. There is no reason to believe that it is identical to the EPA 2008 methodology. (Just as the 2008 EPA methodology differs from the pre-2008 EPA methodology). I think we can safely assume that mpg numbers were done for both cars in accordance with the German standard, whatever that might be. Clearly the results show that the GS450h is more frugal with fuel than the E420 CDI.
Here is another check on the mpg number:
On the fueleconomy.gov site, the E320BT uses 12% less fuel than the GS450h. On the German sites with the German test regimen, the E320BT uses 7.3 liters/100km, or 8% less fuel than the GS450h. These results are close enough (8 vs 12%)that the difference can be explained away by the fact that German and EPA test regimes differ.
Now, the German data also show that the E420 CDI uses 18% more fuel than the GS450h. Why is this so hard for you to believe, given that the German data for the E320BT vs GS450h is reasonably consistent with the EPA difference between the two cars?
Second, as far as the believability of the acceleration numbers, I don't see any reason to accept your claims (which aren't even linked to) over other claims. Sometimes the rags test Lexus products better than the company claims, sometimes not. Same for MB. Just in the last day or 2, there have been 2 links on this board to C&D data. For the RX400h, C&D (under presumably ideal conditions) came up with much faster than Lexus-claimed 0-60 times. For the E320BT, C&D came up with slightly slower than MB claims. Neither result consitutes a trend or a rule, imho.
What would be more credible? A true comparo (same day, same driver, same conditions)...but until you can link to such a comparo for the 2 cars in question, I don't see sufficient proof that the E420 CDI is quicker than the GS450h.
Lastly, on being "practical", no question, hybrid sedans to date generally aren't, as far as trunk space. One reason that I haven't bought a LS600hL. Two things to note, though: hybrid SUVs that I'm familiar with have not given up cargo space; and with improvements in batttery technology, the trunk space gap between hybrid and diesel/ICE sedans will narrow, eventually.
Ok, who followed the link...
'21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)
Just who has the authority to beef up laws like that? Surely there is an elective process in Canada that can overturn what is BAD.....Seems as though something like what is described is for a very dangerous driver with a few tickets already.....I think in Virginia they did something like what is said for people driving way over the limit, and I think it got changed back, but could be wrong....Maybe like driving twenty five over the seventy limit....Although I don`t think you or I would like to think of it , but I might have to go to another country if things got like that...Who would want to live under such a threat if you got one ticket??? Must be very extreme case that you posted---only for three days ---or something like that...Tony
I think the point is well-made that the GS hybrid is probably quicker from a dead stop to 60 miles per hour. Now I ask myself how often does that happen in real life? Well, in real life, usually when getting up to freeway speeds, it starts out as a merge into traffic, and not from a dead stop anyway.
I think the point is also made that the E BlueTec is likely to be slightly more fuel efficient than the GS hybrid. Now I ask myself by how much, and does that transfer to real-life driving results? I think it probably does, but the difference is likely marginal. EPA gives a 3 mpg combined advantage to the diesel.
The trunk space issue is a real one for some folks and less significant to others, so its hard to say how much it matters overall. It can and has been used in arguments and debates against the GS hybrid... but in real life, does it matter that much? I really can't say.
The problem of batteries that will eventually wear out is hard to pin down, because no one really knows their true lifespan, IMO, but certainly they won't outlast a diesel engine.
When it comes to the driving dynamics, I think it is established that the diesel has a certain "feeling" of being quicker than it actually is, and it certainly has torque that gives it a quick surge when needed. Additionally, the other driving dynamics are probably superior, such as cornering. On a race track that includes twists and turns and a straightaway, it would be hard to know with any assurance just which car would win, IMO.
So, in the future we will see more and better comparisons between hybrids and diesels that will sort things out better than the limited number of vehicles we have for comparison today.
I have decided that as we move forward, I will be open-minded to the future developments of all powertrain technologies. I don't think it is now possible to say that one is TOTALLY better than the other. There are distinct advantages and disadvantages to each, IMHO.
Beyond that, we will all have our preferences, and those are subjective and OK, of course, but when it comes to comparing powertrains, we need to seperate our preferences from the raw data.
Syswei - you particularly have done a good job of supplying enough data for me to come to this perspective.
However, I am not a convert! Just being open-minded!
TagMan
it's as BAD as it looks.
Anyone caught twice speeding over 90 MPH on a highway will be deprieved from driving for 10 years.
While a boy racer who kills during car accidents ends up getting a lenient sentence and usually departs from prison early because of good behavior.
The majority are being harshly punished because of a few bad apples(reckless boy racers) and those few bad apples are not even being punished enough.
If I dont immigrate then the perfect car to own with this situation will be a Toyota Prius. At least I will get some kind of low gas consmption satisfaction with low speed driving . :lemon:
Kinda like when someone curses on TV. It used to be out of place, but now.......it's on Sesame Street.
Are you talking about that Toyota spin about replacing a Acura MDX with a Highlander or is it about the dental career opportunities post for individuals who are good with wrenches and pliers.
TM
For crying out loud... get a hold of yourself! We all deal with speed traps... maybe yours are the worst, maybe not. So... you gotta be sneaky, use a radar detector, and you've got to find those special spots where you know it's safe to let 'er rip once in a while.
Otherwise, last I checked, there was no law against rapid acceleration right up to the speed limit!... which "feels" good, gets the adrenaline flowing without breaking the law, and just downshifing into third and second gears when you need to pass someone... all perfectly legal. You gotta learn to "dance" with the car... within the guidelines of the law.
I totally confess, when I'm in the Porsche, there are times I do some of the darndest things... just for the "fun" of it... and all perfectly legal... a little annoying to some of the other drivers on occasion, but a little too much lane changing and dancing around other cars once on a while. It takes a huge amount of horsepower and terrific brakes and steering to do it right... and ALL PERFECTLY LEGAL.
So, I don't want to hear that you don't want a performance car. Heck ANY car can go over the speed limit. THAT's not what a performance car is about. If it was, we'd ALL be driving a Lexus.
It's about the dance, Dewey!... The dance that only a BMW or Porsche or Audi S4, or Jag XK(R)or Maserati can do... and others in that special category.
I KNOW you know what I'm talkin' 'bout here.
YOU in a Prius? You'd be like a squirrel in a cage within two weeks... and there's no way you'd be thumbin' your nose at the other BMWs as they drove near you. You'd be sick in the pit of your guts knowing that someone ELSE is driving YOUR car.
You'd have nightmares, for crying out loud.
Why, soon... you'd need a therapist! You gotta be who you really are, Dewey. Your a car enthusiast who likes performance cars! Face it! Just learn a little self-control in the right places at the right time and the whole matter is solved!
TagMan
We returned to the dealer last evening to pick up our old MDX and of course the salesman had paperwork prepared for the sale, sorry no deal.
I may go to the Lexus dealer tonight to check out the SUV's as well as the LS460 as a potential replacement for my A8, we'll see.
Here is a side note for you married guys, the Enclave was actually a very nice color that was called Cocoa, well my wife did really like it because she said it matched her hair color and she would look good in it?!?!?! I hope that you can feel my pain.
Jose
In fact in my case, current diesels would probably be better for a sedan, because (a) I don't drive aggressively, so I don't care too much about being some tenths slower, and (b) trunk space does matter, on occaision. But I'm NOT going to buy one for my next sedan, which is probably a MY2008 purchase, because (a) there is no S/A8/7 diesel sedan yet in the US, and (b) if there were, it might not be offered AWD here.
On the SUV side it is a somewhat different story. The RX, Yukon, Tahoe hybrids don't give up any cargo space to their ICE counterparts, and have impressive mpg, even compared to diesels. The forthcoming ML hybrid, even more so. The only issue imho is the battery life, and I think it doesn't really matter to me so much, since the battery (at least in a Lexus hybrid) is warranted for 10 years and 150k miles. By the time a car gets that old, it has depreciated by quite a large percentage, regardless of powertrain. But I'm going to buy an SUV in MY2008 too, and it will probably be ICE, because (a) current hybrid SUVs are either too small or not prestigous enough for me, and (b) the GL diesel, assuming reliability is like the ICE version, isn't reliable enough for me, and isn't in CT yet anyway.
My next round of purchases, whenever that comes, is much more likely to be hybrid diesel. I think it will take 3-6 years before most German cars are offered that way, and 4-7 years for Lexus.
DrFill
There is a vague thing in the AZ statutes about "aggressive driving" in case the cop doesn't like what you're doing & can't figure out anything else to charge you with.
Still ways to have a lot of fun in a car under 70 mph, though.
DrFill
Mark my words, gents, we are looking at the 2009 RX right here. I am surprised that this CUV has retained the original RX lines and does not look too much like many other SUVs that Lexus/Toyota has put out recently. Family resemblance is good but when the highest end model (LX570) looks like a bloated lowest end model (RAV4) then some change has to be done.
Good effort by Lexus IMO.
Source: LF-Xh and LF-A
I certainly expect more HPX than this. The HPX is much bigger.
DrFill
Here's the dimension comparison between the Highlander and LF-Xh:
LF-Xh / Highlander
Total length (in): 189 / 188.4
Total width (in): 74.6 / 75.2
Total height (in): 65 / 69.3
Wheelbase (in): 112.2 / 109.8
Doc, whatever the actual RX ends up being, there will be an extended wheelbase version with a third seat. That's already been announced.
TagMan
But there is even more to it that just paying tickets and God forbid if someone is found with a radar detector.
Just this year the Canadian government introduced a feebate program which involves hefty taxes for purchasing performance cars. The taxes imposed on performance cars are being used to fund hefty government handouts to hybrid buyers or economy car buyers. Our Government feels it has a obligation to punish certain buyers and reward others.
.
Driving at 60 MPH on highways and 35MPH in cities is just not my idea of fun. I dont know how to enjoy my BMW when I am continuosly looking for a patrol car ahead. It just dampens my mood. Within a 5 mile radius where I live there are dozens of patrol cars waiting to nail you (sneakily they alway change sites) If a person loses a certain level of points for traffic violations than he loses his priviledge of driving
I am fed up with paying hefty auto taxes, speeing ticket fines, huge insurance premiums and the risk of never being able to drive again.
Performance cars in Canada are like cigarettes. The government feels it has a politically correct obligation to tax and fine us sinners and no sinners in great number are going to revolt because these taxes are suppose to redeem us from our guilt.
And yes I am being very serious when I say that my next car will lack a pulse since what is the point of having an exciting car in this kind of idiotic repressive environment.
I am mad as hell. :mad:
But I am not going to immigrate yet.
No wonder... Your description of your environment IS hell!
That is absolutely on the edge of unbelievable. I feel sorry for you. I'd go out of my mind to lose one of the most rewarding experiences in life. :sick: :mad:
TagMan
It upsets me also, and I know how you feel....When I had a radar detector, it went off all the time, for road construction etc, so when it got stolen , I just didn`t replace it....It`s been a long time since I got a ticket, and I feel my time is coming, as I drive about ten over the limit...So far the police haven`t bothered people going about that speed, but at any moment they can change their minds--then I`m toast...We do get a better break, in that the points have to add up to twelve, and if you get it down to two then no insurance problem....As was stated, just about any car can go faster than the limit....It`s just why spend alot of money on a car and then live in fear??I further find if I start to drive aggresively then it just carries on until I am where I need to go...Just better not to start Tony
The unique thing about the V1 is that it has arrows to tell you where the radar is coming from. So, if the arrow points to the rear, you can bet you are being approached or followed, or a patrolman with radar drove somewhere in the vicinity behind you. When the arrow points ahead, you know to look for it in that direction. If the arrows point to the middle, it's on either side of you, which could be dangerous... but you almost ALWAYS get a warning to the front or rear first.
I put one in EVERY vehicle... I got so tired of those sleezy traps to get you for going 5 - 10 miles per hour over the limit... just to fatten the local cash registers.
TagMan
if Jessee James was able to retire as a law abiding citizen I think I will be able to drive like a law abiding citizen.
Anyways enough with my whining.
Here's a new MINI SUV or SAV or whatever they call it.
Looks terrible IMO. In fact the styling resembles Toyota's retro FJ Cruiser.
I hope you do emergency house calls because Toyota really needs some treatment. These pictures form the 07 Tokyo Show looks horrific unless you happen to be Fred Flintstone or a Jetsons family member.
Is this Barney Rubble Styling the future of Toyota ? :sick:
Even that one! :surprise:
DrFill
I received one a few years ago as a birthday present from my wife. It was cool... for all of two weeks... Then the nightmare started. It was a Cooper S, loaded to the gills... EVERYTHING went wrong. Worst car EVER! Beyond imagination!
Don't buy one. P.O.S.
TagMan
Yes, moot and I don't think so.
I think you're a little biased. The E most certainly handles better- the GS has no road feel. It is more practical because it has a real trunk, and it will easily get better mileage on the highway.
I realized my mistake with the mileage after I posted, sorry.
But the Lexus hybrids are just rolling contradictions, especially the LS600hL. I would definitely get an RX350, GS350 or LS460 over them.
'06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG • '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet • '04 Lexus RX330
'06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG • '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet • '04 Lexus RX330
You have no idea- I sifted through three pages of test drives on Google (and simple "reviews") to find the numbers on the E420 CDI. Not a single one!!! Only factory times!
Sometimes the rags test Lexus products better than the company claims, sometimes not.
Mostly not. The only ones I can think of that have been quicker than the mfr claims are (conveniently) the GS450h, and the IS350. All others have been a few ticks off.
Same for MB.
Wrong. I have never read a single test saying they couldn't attain Mercedes's factory claims.
What would be more credible? A true comparo (same day, same driver, same conditions)...but until you can link to such a comparo for the 2 cars in question, I don't see sufficient proof that the E420 CDI is quicker than the GS450h.
Let's go to Europe and make one.
I'm sick of arguing. I would take the E420, you'd probably take the GS450h. There is nothing either of us can say that will sway the other's opinion. However, I think there's one thing we can agree on: the GS450h looks amazing. The wheels finish off the design perfectly, and it looks good enough for me to forget that the E420 CDI isn't sold here.
A8L 4.2TDI. 335d/535d. A5 3.0TDI. S420 CDI, S320 CDI. A3 2.0TDI. C300D. X5 3.0d. 740d. Range Rover TDV8.
I could go on... :sick:
At least we get the E320 Bluetec, though, which is a pristine example of what diesels do best. In one test, it got about 40mpg on the highway, and it's still fast enough and luxurious enough for any sub-$100K premium sedan buyer. Very nice.
'06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG • '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet • '04 Lexus RX330
Very well said... and to put that in this perspective... consider that the E320 BlueTec is essentially just the very beginning of the revolutionary clean and modern diesels within our shores... and if the beginning is that nice, then we can really look forward to what will be coming our way soon.
TagMan
I should have mentioned this before....the reason the 0-100kph times look a bit "slow" for both cars is that 100kph=62mph, not 60, which makes a difference of a few tenths.
I have never read a single test saying they couldn't attain Mercedes's factory claims.
Someone else linked to the C&D review recently:
The bad news is that the E320 BlueTec is slower than the E350 in every respect. Our E320’s 0-to-60 time of 6.8 seconds trails the E350 Sport’s by 0.9 second, and the E320 is also slower than the 6.6 seconds claimed by Mercedes-Benz.
you'd probably take the GS450h
I posted yesterday that I'd be closer to purchasing a diesel sedan than a hybrid (I don't care about being a little slower to 60, and I do care about the trunk)....but there is no diesel S here, it wouldn't be legal in CT, and it wouldn't be offered AWD here. So my next sedan will be ICE. The one after that I expect to be diesel hybrid.
I'm sick of arguing.
Yes, let's stop beating the dead horse.
The above is a contradiction since past collsion tests have indicated that SUVs are safer than cars (apparently overall car drivers are driving their cars more safely than SUV drivers and that is why car driver mortality rates are lower).
But here is a new statistic:
Collision tests on side impacts of SUVs indicates that many are in fact not safer than cars.
http://press.iihs.org/2007/101107/default.htm
The E will handles better - yes.
The E is more practical - moot point unless you go on road trip with the whole family every single weekend.
The E gets significantly better mileage - I don't think so because the overall FE is only few ticks below the E320 BT but higher than the E420 CDI which is more of an apple to apple comparison IMO.
Again, how's that I am biased?
The Lexus hybrids are not rolling contradictions. In order to understand the purpose of the GS450h and LS600hL one has to know why Lexus introduced the 2 model. The GS450h was aiming to compete with E550, 550i and M45 at the time because the GS430 was just not up to the task. It was supposed to deliver V8-like power with better than V6 FE. Besides lacking on the handling part (it's a Lexus, what do you expect?) it really was even with its ICE counterparts. Lexus used the same philosophy for the LS600hL to compete with 760i and S600 with V12-like power and V8 FE. Both of them were not supposed to be a Lexus Prius from day one.
Last I checked, the LS600hL owners don't have to pay gas guzzler tax like the 760i and S600 owners do. As matter of fact, the upcoming IS-F will be spared with the gas guzzler tax as well, that's something the MB and BMW can't say with their C63 and M3.