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Comments
Don't forget, Porsche doesn't only attract the so-called enthusiast. There are plenty of badge buyers to go around, and since Porsche is the most notable car brand, well... 1 + 1 = 2.
Another thing to remember... the new Porsche is young and they have lots of places to go.
That is a good question, especially with VW as a premium diesel resource. but, a diesel Porsche?... YIKES!
I think BMW and Audi would have a better chance of marketing a performance diesel at this point in time... and be successful.
TagMan
Do manufacturer's really pay those taxes though? I saw on a CL63 traded in the other day that had a $2,800 gas guzzler tax included in the MSRP. My assumption is that the cost is just passed on to the consumer.
Hybrid over diesel? Not sure.
-moo
Again, this is my thought pattern as well. If you're going to buy a Hybrid, get a Civic or a Prius, not a high powered sports machine.
If ALL the vehicles on the road were hybrids, I could understand this mentality a little bit. However, they aren't.
Also, sorry Dewey, you can't get that Insight anymore (at least not new).
-moo
Being "green" is no longer a liberal fringe group. It is becoming the mainstream trend of this decade, and even more so into the next decade... a way of life... and I agree with it.
Mixing performance with fuel efficiency is something most folks would sign up for if it wasn't too unusual... but the technology only offers us limited choices at this point in time. It won't be long, however, before the powertrain alternatives are improved, tweaked, and much more acceptable to the general marketplace.
They will inherently improve in both fuel efficiency and performance until the point when they have merged appropriately. There will no longer be the definitive choice between fuel efficiency and performance that we now must make. The merger of fuel efficiency and performance WILL happen, and it is inevitable.
TagMan
What circumstances are those?
TagMan
You are right that the gas guzzler tax is pay by the owners but manufactures will have a penalty if its overall fleet FE is over the limit (35 mpg by 2020). I'll say that's going to be a tough one for Porsche without either diesel or hybrid engines given that all Porsche engines are performance oriented and its most fuel efficient model, Boxter, returns 19/26/21 mpg.
Don't forget utility - 4 doors, back seats, wagon!!
(Just thought I'd mention that. Carry on...
Yes, very good, D-Man. That would indeed be the number factor for most.
TM
I think your recent posts have made it clear enough that you are ready for a "change" (sounds like our presidential candidates
I think the appeal of a fuel-efficient vehicle lurks inside most of us, but the marketplace hasn't really offered us an adequate range of choices.
The fact that you are waiting for the NEXT generation Prius says something. The idea that you've thought about (but didn't actually buy) an Insight says something. The way that you are recently more willing to post both positive and negative information about BMW says something.
It says that the appeal for major fuel efficiency is lurking, but you haven't scratched that itch just yet... but you are clearly getting ready to do so. I believe that you are not alone, and that millions of folks are sharing that feeling. The wave of buyers that will migrate to more fuel-efficient vehicles will be quite significant, IMO. You'll have lots of company... even from some folks that would never have imagined themselves buying a gas-sipper. The question is: which models will get them to pull the trigger?
TagMan
What a coincidence! That sounds exactly like the 530xi Touring on my driveway.
If I am buying a car in the next 12 month the choice will be 335d or the new A4 if we are getting the TDI version. However, since I am not I guess I have the luxury to wait for more options coming up which I have no doubt that is going to happen in the very near future.
I am no tree-hugger but just sick and tired to give my hard earn money to the evil oil companies.
1)The next generation Prius plus
2) A diesel BMW with fuel efficient features like regenerative brakes and stop-start functions .
think your recent posts have made it clear enough that you are ready for a "change" (sounds like our presidential candidates
My US Presidential Candidate of Choice: Ron Paul
Highly irreleant though since I am a Canadian
Ron Paul?
-moo
Whoever the actual "evil" parties are, most folks are now fairly sick of them. They are ripe for products that will deliver the features they need and want, but also offer fuel efficiency. It's a great opportunity for the right products to be hugely successful. It will be interesting to see what sells and what doesn't.
I'll bet big that the next-generation Prius will be back-ordered at first.
TagMan
That dirty oil giant is trying to be your friend! Yes, he dumped billions of gallons of oil in the sea, but he's GREEN! He does care about the environment!
:surprise:
-moo
Not to mention their lack of safety. The BP refinery here in Houston that had an explosion killed several, injured many more and the law suite was huge
By the way, when are we all going to get back to squabbling?
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
I don't think I am tired of luxury cars but I am definitely getting tired of overweight luxury cars. The current entry level luxury cars like the 3-series, IS and G are getting close the my limit and cars such as the 5-series are the heaviest that I'll ever come to accept.
When I was at my parent's during Christmas I got to drive my mom's '99 Camry and my old '97 Accord (now my sister's). Those cars are no where near as sporty as my IS but it sure was fun to toss those around due to the lighter weight.
Porsche Cayenne
Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT8
Chevy Trailblazer SS
GMC Typhoon
Mercedes G55 AMG
Mercedes E55 AMG wagon
BMW M5 wagon
BMW X5
Dodge Magnum R/T & SRT8
etc.
Many of these products are 5-seaters. I just don't agree that if you've got more than two seats, you're a "people carrier" Is a hatchback a people carrier? What about a 2+2 coupe? The Mazda RX-8 for example, would that be a people carrier?
I think people carrier means 7 seats, and while some of the full size SUVs on that list might have that, I doubt they ever sold in any significant numbers.
Possibly more accurate, but without any true definition, you will likely get different opinions on that. 5 seems to be the more typical number, and we've seen the 2+2+2 approach on some vehicles, so 6 certainly qualifies. And 7 and 8... well, that approaches herding cattle.
TagMan
Yes, let's hope those rumors are true. That's the one that has my fullest attention. I can't wait to read full reviews of that car. I can only imagine how glorious it will drive with seemingly unlimited massive torque. It's a dream car alright.
TagMan
Just about everything other than sports cars can carry five though, and what's the point of trying to define a category if it includes everything? Perhaps I should've said, who wants a "performance wagony-minivanish-thing" because thats what the R-class is and what its BMW rival would've been, which was my point to begin with. Nobody bought the R63.
So ur saying in everyway its better than a lexus except the back up camera?
Im really starting to like this car more and more,when will it get the face lift? end of 2009? i just hope that they dont make the car anymore bigger specially in length for the next gener whenever it comes in the next 5 years.
no1 seem to notice my message that ferrari is seriously considering competing with SUV like the CAYENNE.
thanks.
OK, here ya' go. Who knows how much truth there is behind this. What would the price be?
I can guarantee you I won't buy one. LOL.
TagMan
The year 2008 so far has been the most peaceful period ever recorded in this forum. I guess that is quite worrisome IMO. :surprise:
What is most peculiar here is how united everyone is so far with regards to their dislike for LWB luxury sedans. I say peculiar because this forum just so happens to be a luxury forum. A few years ago the High End Luxury Car/Marque forum was the most vibrant Edmunds community and there were a lot of enthusiastic discussions about the wonders of big luxury sedans. Now this forum has become a virtual Ghost Town.
Declining enthusiasm for such cars is also confirmed by the latest sales stats. Despite a $8K discount on the LS460 during the December Red Bow Promo and despite MB S550's great December lease deals both these models sales dropped about 20 percent during the last month of this year.
Radar safety equiment, self park and all those gizmos may be overkill for most drivers. Reminds me of electronic spreadsheets. During the 80s/early 90s when I was an accountant there were vast improvements with Lotus/Excel but after that period all spreadsheet improvements had become overkill and non-events. Kind of like today's electronically loaded big luxury sedans.
bmlexus nobody had made a comment because your link was not working. But thanks for informing us about this horrific Abomination .
Not to mention their lack of safety. The BP refinery here in Houston that had an explosion killed several, injured many more and the law suite was huge
Oh, please...here's a conversation about cars that frequently consume huge amounts of gas, and who's to blame? The oil companies. Look in the mirror, people! Reminds me of enjoying a glass of wine at a B&B, only to listen to all the BMW/MB/Jaguar drivers complain about the 'evil oil companies'. And 'billions of gallons'...ok, where'd that come from?
It seems like the Euro lux makers are only going to send their biggest and most powerful diesels here, so I doubt we will see something like the C250 Bluetech. Those diesel hybrids should definitely be interesting, though. The diesel I'd probably buy right now, if it were available, is the A6 3.0TDi.
I find it interesting that the naysayer is from Texas. Conspiracy anyone?
-moo
2008 Detroit Auto Show Preview: 2009 Hyundai Genesis
I continue to predict very good things for this car (inspite of what Doc said). It's better looking than the LS460 and will be offered at a fraction of the price. A terrific value in the segment, not seen since the first LS was introduced!!
TagMan
The worst part is that it doesn't even look as good as the Cayenne!!
What are those Italians thinking?? :sick:
The Doc is right.
Notice the lack of a logo on the hood or the grill. Hyundai is too ashamed to put their H logo on the front of their car. Talk about brand confidence.
In status conscious USA this Genesis is going to flop even with a low price. If Hyundai is too ashamed to put their logo on the front of the car then most the status conscious part of the market will be too ashamed to own such a car. That is the unfortunate truth.
You cant have luxury unless it is both exclusive and expensive. The Genesis fails on both counts. The introductory 90 Lexus LS400 was both exclusive and not at all cheap like the Genesis (remember the 90 Lexus LS price was based on dollars that were worth far more back then ).
It looks sportier I'll give you that but it still doesn't have the "elegance stance" that the LS has. Talking about the elegance stance, nobody does that better than the S-class though.
will be offered at a fraction of the price.
There is no doubt about that.
However, Hyundai did trick us while declaring that this car will start under $30k last year at the Detroit Autoshow. They certainly didn't lie but it looks like the only below $30k model will come with the 3.3L V6 delivers 268 HP and 233 lb-ft of torque, not the 3.8L V6 everyone thought it would be.
Also the 3.8L V6 doesn't have the 300HP like Hyundai said it would, the rating is at 290 hp and 264 lb-ft of torque. Despite the rumor of the 4.6L V8 will come with 380HP the official rating has it at 368 hp and 324 lb-ft of torque. Still impressive I must say.
Overall I think this car is going to do well sales wise but I don't think Lexus, BMW and MB have anything to worry about. In my opinion the Chrysler 300, Dodge Charger and the upcoming Pontiac G8 are going to be effected the most.
Did anyone notice there is no Hyundai emblem at the front of the car? I wonder why... :P
I don't think Lexus has a lot to worry about either, but it will naturally draw some fringe from Lexus, MB, BMW, etc. Primarily the Chrysler 300 market, as you said, will be impacted.
Regarless of the lack of hood/grill badging, the primary draw is its incredibly compelling value. The badge doesn't matter all that much at its price point. If the Genesis was competing at the upper end, it would matter a whole lot more, as Dewey pointed out... but again, it is not. In fact, there is something subtle and elegant about not seeing the badge, and it could easily be argued that it is a positive attribute just as easily as a negative one. At the end of the day, it is one of the least important factors anyway regarding the car. It makes its own statement that says "no bragging is necessary", unlike the giant three-pointed star on the Mercedes GL550's front grill... possibly the biggest badge on steroids in auto history... that many here posted was in poor taste.
Anyway, enough about the badge. The engine selections sound OK to me, and it was always announced that the price-leader would have the six-cylinder, so it comes as no surprise. All powertrain and equipment combinations should represent a great value in the mid-lux price segment, as I truly believe the car will speak for itself.
Considering that this Genesis is a Hyundai, and that Hyundai will be marketing it through the regular Hyundai dealerships as opposed to a dedicated upscale badge, I think it is going to be a remarkable achievement. In the future, I would not be surprised to see Hyundai with its own upper division, but first things first. Unfortunately, I also think that the vehicle is a few years late to the game, as it seems that we are very possibly either already in a recession or about to enter into one.
Of course, there is no word yet about leasing the Genesis, which could also impact the sales of this car. We already know from the projected MSRP level that Genesis will be a major bargain, but if the leasing figures are also favorable, then that bargain would extend even further.
I continue to maintain that the Genesis will sell well, particularly considering all the obstacles.
TagMan
Is it possible for an 'inexpensive' vehicle to be a luxury vehicle, or is that vehicle just a bargain for someone who wants the features?
I guarantee that no one who is enjoying great personal success in life is going to celebrate it by getting Hyundai's 'luxury' vehicle. Equally, anyone who is doing okay and wants a car with lots of features and that looks nice will go for it in a heart-beat. I imagine a lot of retirees who can't stretch to an Avalon will jump at it.
Essentially, what is the value of luxury if it is available to everyone? Without exclusivity (look at the badge of my success), there is no luxury. Only luxurious features.
Seems more of a Buick/ Avalon fighter to me...
Is it possible for an 'inexpensive' vehicle to be a luxury vehicle.........
Wow... great question, but history has shown us and proved that Lexus already answered that question with their first "inexpensive" "luxury" vehicle.
TagMan
True, but they also established a completely separate brand to carry it. Dealers, name etc. Hyundai is trying something completely new, existing brand but moving itself upscale while holding on to its price perception.
Certainly it may be the best value that money can buy but does that define it as luxury.
Here's another example, BMW 323i, by no means is it feature heavy in base mode or a 'value'. However we can all acknowledge that it is (at least) entry-lux in a way that a smaller 4-door sedan from Hyundai never would be.
If all they want is a really nice flag-ship for the Hyundai line then they may be successful. If they want to parlay their market position into Luxury (with all the potential profitability that comes with that), I think they will be disappointed.
So what is demand like for cars in Germany?
Demand for cars in Germany, Europe's largest automobile market, last year hit the lowest level since the country reunified in 1990, official statistics published yesterday showed, confirming earlier industry estimates.
New-car registrations dropped 9.2% to just over 3.148 million in 2007, after a plunge of 20% in December, according to data released by KBA, the German motor-vehicles agency.
BMW, MB , Audi and VW all faced sales declines in Germany.
So what is demand like for cars in Japan?
Japan's domestic auto sales fell to a 35-year low last year as the nation faced high gasoline prices, limited income growth and shrinking demand, an industry group said Monday.
The data showed that the world's third-biggest auto market is slow to respond to efforts by some Japanese car makers to spark local demand by boosting their offerings of new models. Japan's largest automaker, Toyota Motor Corp., has introduced nine models since last May but estimates a 6 percent drop in its domestic sales in 2007.
In addition Lexus sales in Japan are very disappointing compared to what Toyota had expected them to be.
GERMANY
JAPAN
No, being the best value doesn't define it as luxury.
That said and clarified... I think that "luxury" is going to be associated with the Genesis, regardless of how we define it here. In fact, I'll bet on it. I am convinced that we will see the Genesis referred to as a "luxury car" or at a minimum a "near-luxury car" in most, if not all, automobile magazines and online auto-related websites, as well as the automotive sections of popular business publications. Clearly, the word "luxury" will be associated with this car, and in the long run, it will therefore be considered as such.
I certainly understand and agree with the perspective of exclusivity. But, I see something here with the Genesis that is not all that common... compelling luxury value. Luxury value that literally shouts at you... similar to the first Lexus LS. It's blatantly obvious, as was the first LS. Consider the opening statement from Edmunds...
There are only two production cars in the world with a Lexicon-branded audio system. One is the $360,000 Rolls Royce Phantom; the other is the 2009 Hyundai Genesis.
Exclusive enough? Perhaps not, but it's still a fact.
Anyway, no need to beat the Genesis argument too long again. I haven't changed my mind on the vehicle, and I anticipate that it will do well, and it will bolster Hyundai's image, which should be good for Hyundai in the long run.
TagMan
Since you are our resident financial expert, can you also shed some light on what's going on in China with regards to autos? I am very interested in this, although I don't know if others are as well. Thanks.
TagMan
The company that has most to lose in China is VW and GM since their market shares have been declining and continues to decline .
The company that has most to gain in China is Toyota. Their market share is quite low but their sales growth are among the fastest in China. The same goes for Toyota sales in Russia , India and Latin America. Chery and other Chinese auto makers may face challenges if they do not improve their quality as Chinese consumers become more sophisticated car consumers. If Chinese auto makers do not improve their quality then Toyota will take advantage of this situation and emphasize the quality of their cars (assuming Toyota quality does not decline any further).
Toyota may face hurdles in Japan and USA. But the ace in their sleeve is that their sales are currently under-represented in parts of the world which are currently booming. Also the fastest growth in Europe right now are for cars that are hybrids. Although there are not many hybrids in Europe, Toyota will benefit most if hybrid sales continues to boom there.
Toyota has quite a hill to climb in Chinese public perception and the actions of Japanese politicians in the last 5 years has not really moved the ball forward.
That logo will exist in South Korea since the Genesis will be sold in seperate dealerships there.
True. Japanese politician are still in denial about the atrocities their country had commited during WW2.
Also of note, she's probably the sweetest person you'll meet. Which makes her obvious disregard for Japanese that much more momentous.
-moo