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Also, back in 1940s who would thought that the VW Beetle will one day be a classic since according to Adolf it was supposed to be a car that's cheap enough for every one.
Like you have taught me, never say never...
Lincoln Navigator
Chrysler PT Cruiser
03 Cadillac CTS
Yugo
:surprise:
If you think that it is complimentary that the LS shares a list with the above cars than so be it.
I think it's a complimentary that the LS400 shared the list with the following cars:
1992 Toyota Camry
2001 Toyota Prius
1984 Chrysler minivans
1990 Mazda Miata
2002 BMW 7 Series
True... but the list itself seems quite odd, no matter which perspective you put on some of the cars. I found myself really wondering about some of those models from either a positive or negative vantage.
Can you come up with additional information to support this USA Today list? I'm not suggesting that it is a requirement here, but I do think it would help your point a lot.
TagMan
I think the article it self was pretty self explanatory:
Remember, these cars were picked because of the strong impressions they left on the industry at the time of their introduction, not necessarily because they were good. That's why you'll see automotive disasters like the 1986 Yugo and the 2001 Pontiac Aztek ranked on the list, and predictable high-achievers like Ferrari and Porsche not even getting a mention.
Each of the cars on the list, in some way, managed to rewrite the rules for its respective segment, such as the Camry lifting the bar for reliable and affordable family sedans, or the 2002 BMW 7-series shaking up the once staid luxury saloon segment with its dramatic styling and innovative iDrive system. We have to agree with most of the cars that were picked, but we're surprised the first-generation Audi TT didn't make it.
source: USA Today lists the 25 cars with the most 'impact'
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
Lexus, the marque, may well be considered a "classic" brand in the future as it did change the rules in the luxury segment. Acura established the beachhead, but Lexus really made the waves with the original LS. The LS may be considered a classic as representative of the ascension of the Lexus brand or on it's own merits. I'd cast a vote for the original SC400 as a more likely Lexus classic, but that's just IMO.
Nonetheless, I think many of us owe a debt of gratitude to Honda/Toyota/Nissan for their upmarket aspirations. Offering competent/competitive luxury at large discounts to the established European marques has only benefitted us all.
'21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)
Amen, brother!!
True there is definitely a difference between a BMW Bavaria and a beer drinking Bavarian attired in Lederhosen.
Wow you owned a BMW Bavaria? I heard those were great cars. I love the way they look. Sporty, spartan , austere and unpretensious. IMO those are great attributes of a sport sedan.
How?... did they make a car unlike any that others had ever made? Was there some sort of new technological or styling breakthrough? Nothing was special or different at all about the car itself.
The only thing that was noteworthy was its sticker price!
Don't get me wrong here... I totally agree that competition is a good thing... we have no disagreement on that part of your post.
Will the Hyundai Genesis become a classic, too, because it represents a value?
I don't think so.
TagMan
Edit: Oops! Darn, I was too late, I see you are already being asked for proof!! :confuse:
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
IIRC, the reviews of the LS400 were outstanding (as they were for the Q45, the Japanese BMW). And the hacks writing about it were amazed. Because it offered Mercedes levels of build quality, refinement, technology and overall driving experience (and yes, MB-like styling!) for a fraction of the MB price.
It changed the rules in that the Europeans (most notably, MB) were no longer the only game in town. I believe that it is widely acknowledged that because of the LS, MB pricing had to be "adjusted" to the new market. And MB quality & reliabilty became much more scrutinized as there was a new competitor that was setting a standard that prior to Lexus arrival, people may not have scrutinized as much. Or, just accepted to drive a MB.
So, I disagree that "The only thing that was noteworthy was its sticker price!" That is only part of the equation, a big part though...
If the Genesis is reviewed and accepted by the "experts" and buying public alike as akin to cars costing 50%+ more, and you define "classic", it could well be.
I (we) drove a Renault LeCar from Connecticut to Jackson Hole, Wy via a not-so-memorable New Year's Eve in Chicago with two college buddies and full ski equipment/clothing for over two weeks on the road. Through an unbelieveable white-out snow on the way. And way back. Made it, great mpg. Greater skiing!!! To me, that LeCar earned the title "Classic" in my life!
'21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)
The only thing that was noteworthy was its sticker price!
This is what the LS400 brought to the table in 1990 (from the Wikipedia entry):
"the first generation LS was among the first luxury sedans to feature digital A/C readouts, power adjustable shoulder belts, front seat heaters, an electrochromic rear-view mirror, and auto-off headlamps.[13] The five-passenger cabin also featured a walnut and leather-trimmed interior, power-adjustable memory seats, soft-touch controls, electroluminescent Optitron gauges, and the first automatic tilt-and-telescoping steering wheel with SRS airbag.[14] Available options were an air suspension (used to raise or lower the vehicle), a Nakamichi premium sound system, and an integrated cellular telephone with hands-free capabilities"
"In 1989 comparison tests, Automobile Magazine and Car and Driver both rated the LS 400 as the best flagship luxury sedan over competing models ranging from Audi, BMW, Cadillac, Infiniti, Jaguar, and Mercedes-Benz.[16] Reviewers found the LS 400 superior in comfort, engine performance, ergonomics, ride quality, styling, and overall value."
I will give Lexus this - the gauges and HVAC controls in the LS were FAR superior to what was in MB and BMW at the time.
Hey Tag, are those repressed memories coming back yet?
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Does it? I think it rather reinforces the "impact" answer very well, but still mostly (but not only) because of its price. I do also think that it started a one-upmanship features race, and one that has not ended... as we now see the gimmicks like self-park and we are already up to an 8-speed tranny.
I certainly like the idea of competition, and I think it was/is good for the industry.
Impact the segment?... sure! OK... I'm good with that.
Classic, though?... No way! I can not honestly go there with the LS. I apologize for what may look like stubborness to some here, but I still doubt anyone will ever be seeking out that car and willing to pay a premium to get one of those cars into their stable or collection.
BTW, I appreciate the focus of everyone here on this question, and riding it through. Perhaps the result is a more positive or favorable memory of the original LS, and as I recall it, it was originally like a bomb had been dropped by the Japanese on the German-dominated luxury segment. That's quite a testimony to the car's credit. I'm very OK with that and don't mind saying it with that description, and you Lexus fans can quote the good TagMan with those words, and hopefully remember them next time you accuse me of "bashing" the LS.
Very significant indeed. Huge impact indeed.
But... not a classic... IMHO...
TagMan
Let me just put it this way...
If I ever get very rich one day and decided to have my own automobile museum, the 1990 LS400 will definitely be one of the vehicle for exhibition.
I certainly hope you do!!
,,, and I will come for a visit, so watch out!
TagMan
Yes i know i have read abt it.
But just as soon as I mentioned that Lexus vehicles are unlikely to become classics... holy smokes!!... immediate over-reaction.
I did not complaint and am not getting into any debate about lexus classic or not finally the debate is over i hope future can only tell i guess.
I want to be sure that I am not misquoted or misrepresented in any way. I have given the highest respect for the Lexus success story. That does not mean that I have to like the cars, nor does it mean that just because they are not likely to become classics that I have somehow misaligned Lexus in any way.
I agree and every1 has their own opinion.
I have yet to find a perfect car or perfect marque.
I hope the 135i will be the perfect car
I hope that is clear for you, as I do not want to be misrepresented here on this forum by other posters comments. I will let the posts speak for themselves, and I do stand by my opinion that with all due respect for Lexus, I do not see a classic-in-the-making as yet from them.
Agree that every1 has their own choices and likes and dislikes.
Hope the classic car war is over for now. :shades:
LOL thanks for the offer for going back to the future but no thanks.
I'll stay with the current cars.
LOL!
Just to put it in some sort of positive perspective, and I'm pretty sure that Houdini will back me on this... we've had real wars in the past... real heavyweight bouts. Today was just a little sparring together, and we've all emerged just fine.
Heck, we brought a little excitement to the forum, not seen in a while!! If Houdini and Louiswei were local guys, I'd surely buy 'em both a round of drinks!!
Anyway, back to the usual...
TagMan
Bristol, I really liked your cheeky Frenchman post!
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Yet I cannot resist to nominate Citroen DS 19/21 for the Classics.
Regards,
Jose
(Gone for a skiing/driving tour to the Pyrenees and then the Alps in a quite-new-but-not-coupe, rented Series-1 118d; my crashed 530d is still being dismounted to look for engine/chassis damage :mad: )
An S Class doesn't represent that IMHO. Something fun like a Maseratic or Jag coupe, now we're talking. The head cheerleader from back in the day might even be available.
Good point. It's worth remembering that although Honda was the 1st Japanese manufacturer to introduce a separate luxury brand, the Legend was an entry-level luxury offering, priced & marketed to compete with the Mercedes 190E -- the predecessor to today's C class. IIRC, an '86 Legend cost about $1K less than a comparably equipped 190E. Honda was going after the older baby boomers, who were about to turn 40 & who had just enough disposable income to think about swapping their Accords for baby Benzs & Audi 5000s. This was a sensible, conservative & not unprofitable business strategy.
Toyota, though, swung for the fences. It's easy to forget what a gamble the original LS 400 was. In bringing it to market, Toyota was taking the fight to the enemy's heartland. Suppose that the LS had turned out to be a dog or that luxury car buyers just stayed away. Imagine what that would've done to Toyota. But the LS succeeded, thereby changing (& expanding) the luxury market. Things haven't been the same since then.
Did I mention it was bright yellow with black stripes noting it was "LeCar" for those who mistook it for a Ferrari 308GTB. Common mistake.
'21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)
Fair and balanced: My family has owned Mercedes, Lexus, Acura, Saab, Borgward, Buick, Datsun/Nissan, Chrysler, Cadillac, Ford and, of course, Renault...
My father always wanted a BMW Bavaria. Unfortunately, he had two friends who each owned one. "GREAT car to drive, when it's not in the shop" was their summation. My Dad still says he knows personally of no repeat BMW customers... But, that was then... He's driving a Camry Hybrid and is ecstatic.
'21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)
Interesting exercise! As it happens, my class held a reunion (I won't say which one) just a few months ago. I showed up in my beloved '01 BMW 330i (with red leather upholstery!) & impressed absolutely no one. It turns out that just about every middle-aged white guy in North America has either a 3-series BMW or a Porsche Boxster. The same women who ignored me decades ago continued to look right through me, even though I've shed all that bothersome hair, which shows off the fine shape of my skull to great advantage. I'll have to try something different the next time. Maybe I'll borrow my probation officer's Crown Vic.
I may have a different idea tomorrow, but I rather fancy a Cadillac CTS tonight. I spotted one a few days ago. It was a striking pearl white, & it really stood out in my German-car-loving NYC suburb. I couldn't stop looking at it.
Is it just my imagination, or does this car look absolutely stunning in Alpine White?
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
TagMan
He regaled us with stories this morning about his experience. The one incident that stood out the most was driving 100mph and then turning the wheel to the left. :surprise: 100mph drift and no worries.
Anyone done the tourist delivery before?
-moo
BTW, I hope your GM carries a hefty life insurance policy.
TM
GM said that after he finished the drift he felt very ill. I can only imagine. They took the vehicle offroad onto a 60 degree incline (up/down). They bounced over massive rocks. Apparently, they just went nuts in this vehicle.
The 100mph drift sounds unreal though. I can only imagine.
I don't think I shared this on this board, but the other day I was able to drive a 911 Turbo for the first time (we're never really allowed to drive these vehicles). For about 12 seconds I had the one of the most incredible experiences. New synapses in my brain got sparked. That is one unbelievable ride.
-moo
As they say... "There is no substitute"
That's so cool Scott... 12 seconds should have easily put you well into 3-digit speed, depending upon your situation, of course. I know the acceleration was a terrific rush, but did you get a chance to hit any upper end?
TM
I hit about 80 and then backed off. What an incredible rush. I had told the guy with me that I wasn't going to get on it. He had picked up a Snickers at the convenience store and I hit it as he started to eat.
So, I didn't get to make it to any insane speed, and I didn't get to feel it with the overboost, but it was still amazing.
-moo
The main problem with the E3 was that in the seventies and early eighties BMW took a half-hearted approach about modifying their cars for US emissions laws and and climate conditions(I remember engines being labeled "USA" and "Normal" on the Munich plant assembly lines). When I bought mine ten years later the problems were well known and they had relatively simple solutions -ashcan the ignition retard, EGR, and dashpot, install a larger radiator, and -if you didn't want to fiddle with the dual Zenith carbs- fit a couple of 32/36 DGAV Webers.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
As an affordable "bird puller" as the British would say, nothing beats a last gen Jaguar XK8. You can buy them now for peanuts, and yet they always turn heads, more than any 911.
A BMW can definitely work in white. Audi and MB, not so much.
TM
We're not happy about it, but we're also not worried. Things will turn and people will start loosening up. The trickle down effect will take place. I have high hopes for February.
Cayenne sales are still extremely strong. Mid-engine market has softened the most. 911's are always steady.
-moo
Edit: Also, December was a banner month for us. So between the huge sales that month and the economy, that accounts for a slight dip in sales.
When is the GTS coming will it be better than the turbo heard a lot about GTS these days.
Any info's on the future cayenne's
They all have relative safety, comfort, handling and ride. The ride is quiet unless you get on it. Under quick acceleration you hear that exhaust note and the engine. It's a satisfying sound.
The differences in ride would be if you have the air suspension (standard on the Turbo) and the optional PDCC (Porsche Dynamic Chassis Control). These two features can bring that ultimate sports car feel to an SUV.
GTS will be here in a couple of months. I don't know that I would say it's going to be better than the Turbo. It has quite a bit of sporty standard equipment, but nowhere near the kind of power that the Turbo has. It's a sports edition that I think will do very well. Check out Porsche's website to get a little bit more info on that.
Beyond that, I don't have a bunch of future info on the Cayennes. The '08s had the refresher and as subtle as the charges are, they have done very well.
Hope that helped, if you have any specific questions I'll be happy to help out.
-moo
Somehow I don't think you fit with that particular car and that you are going to feel a little letdown after the 911. Just my thoughts and I hope I am wrong.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
I guess these 2 things are very important for the ride handling for the cayenne's
Thanks.
Wonder sometimes 1 of my relatives sold his black turbo which he used for 4 years and recently bought a GMC Sierra :surprise:
A MB or a Maseratti will not solve the "little action part" after the dance is over. A Maseratti is no Viagra.
Would love to but here in Canada there is no such thing as ED. At least there are no European Deliveries for BMWs
Alpine White or Jet Black are great colours for BMW. I chose gray as a compromise between those two colours.