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Why is Merc on there? Maybe because they sell 20 vehicles costing more than $80,000, 12 of those being over six figures?
'08 BMW X5 4.8i • '06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG • '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet
Obviously, my post raised a bit of controversy.
I don't care how reliable the Ferrari is. I still want one. Exotics are desirable. You may not want to drive it every day, but in the age of the high-tech, comfortable Ferrari F430, it's pretty damn hard to resist. The Italians have come a long way, baby. I wouldn't think twice about buying a Maserati.
The Brits? Well, that's now a non-issue. Bentley is Audi/VW. They are reliable. They are built to the highest standard. They drive commendably. Rolls is BMW. They are everything Bentleys are, times two. Aston is Ford (or used to be). They are a bit less reliable than Bentley/Rolls-Royce, but they are far better than they used to be. Again, I wouldn't think twice about picking up an AM V8 Vantage.
What is there left over? Porsche? Please.
'08 BMW X5 4.8i • '06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG • '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet
I thought it was the other A8 picture that was too wide, not the TC shot.
Delete it.
'08 BMW X5 4.8i • '06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG • '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet
Personally, I still think a certified '04 or '05 Jaguar XJ is the best used buy in the full-lux category. They're cheap, the XJRs are quite fast, and the NAV systems are far better than the old S-class COMAND systems.
Very smart and frugal of you to buy Porsche 911s instead.
Wealth is maintained and grown not only by how a much is earned but also by how much is spent. I'd rather take a highly exotic expensive vacation and live with the positive memories for the rest of my life than have the issues and memories of owning a problematical badly made car.
IMO a 2.2l diesel is great for an Accord but for a TSX and RDX? In fact the Euro Honda Civic has a 2.2l diesel and based on what I read about it in Car & Driver there is really nothing that impressive about the engine. The 2.2l diesel gets less mileage than a lower powered gasoline Honda Civic and substantially less mileage than a hybrid Civic (which in itself is not that impressive)
The appetite for an exotic car should not be fed. Lusting over one is ultimately more enjoyable than actually having one.
TagMan
TM
Most forum members here including myself sometimes yearn to make your mistake.
You know the old saying: Be careful for what you wish for.
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I have been wondering, would we ever seen a V6 from BMW?
That's a good question. Almost all of the straight sixes are gone, replaced by Vees because of the packaging efficiency. Lexus has shown that a V6 can also be quite a smooth operator. I don't think six cylinder engines are going to keep growing in power the way they have in the last few years, so BMW may not need to use a V so they can have enough displacement (and fit it under the hood) to keep up with the Joneses, power-wise.
I would expect to see a lot more turbo fours and sixes in the future, and a lot less V8s.
I don't know about you, but I'm happy.
'08 BMW X5 4.8i • '06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG • '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet
However, it's a very balanced lineup. The M3 and M5 are still gloriously high-revving and naturally aspirated. Having a strong, mid-level turbo engine is healthy and progressive.
'08 BMW X5 4.8i • '06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG • '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet
Jaguars being reliable has nothing to do with maintaining a Ferrari or Lamborghini... worlds apart. Go through the parts prices sometime and also find out what it costs to do some of the standard maintenance. See for yourself what a "normal" major service interval costs, and then see what an unscheduled brake job, for example costs, or clutch work, or some other typical service. You will be shocked. Then, throw in the unfortunate repair, and you will be even more shocked.
Sorry, I learned this from experience... owning a true exotic car can be an expensive "hobby".
Now, that's not to say that it is a wrong thing to do. If you can afford it, and want to spend the green, then that's fine... you will have a lot of fun. I'm just telling it like it is... You WILL spend the dough to own, operate, and maintain most exotic cars.
TagMan
Of course. But I think the implication was clear. Lambos and Ferraris that are sold right now are far more viable than they used to be. I would buy an F430 in a second, and I couldn't have said that about a Ferrari ten years ago. And with an injection of Audi engineering, Lamborghini is now a producer of a truly usable sports car (Gallardo) that I would also consider. The Murciélago is quite another beast altogether.
Of course, I would pick the R8 above all. But my message is there, isn't it?
See for yourself what a "normal" major service interval costs, and then see what an unscheduled brake job, for example costs, or clutch work, or some other typical service. You will be shocked.
Ahh, no, I will not be shocked at all. I know this very well, through friends and relatives who have indulged in their own exotics. This is more or less the only thing that would keep me from buying one. What's so nice about German muscle cars is that you can have the fun (or close to it) of an Italian sports car without the exorbitant service costs; it will cost the same to service an RS6 as it will to give my A3 a check-up.
'08 BMW X5 4.8i • '06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG • '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet
TagMan
This question has been asked repeatedly in forums for many years and despite the repetion of these questions the BMW i6 is considered among the best if not the very best six cylinder engine in the industry.
My question to you is why BMW competitors cannot make a 6 cylinder as good as BMW? Could it be that the BMW has an i6 versus the v6 engines of its competitors ?
Hmmm, now that may very well be the case.
Some reasonably priced models that briefly come to mind are the Audi A3, Audi RS4, Audi RS6, Porsche Cayman/Boxster S, Lotus Elise and Exige (supercharged version), the BMW 135i, BMW 335i, BMW M3, BMW Z4, the VW R32 and GTI, Subaru Impreza WRX STI, Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution, Mazdaspeed 3, Honda S2000 (CR), Ford Mustang (Shelby and Bullitt) Mini Cooper S "Works", Mercedes SLK55 AMG, and the Nissan GT-R (if you can get one without a premium markup).
Others? Comments?
TagMan
I hear what you are saying and my heart does not bleed for every Lambo or Ferarri owner I see on the street since I am sure they are happier on the roads than I am.
But having said that even if money was no object I'd still prefer to drive a non-exotic from a more mainstream marque that feels more competitive pressures than an exotic marque . If I feel unfarily treated by a Ferarri dealer do you really think they will care when they have a multi year waiting list for their cars? At least with BMW they will call me every single time after my car is serviced to find out how their services were and what they can do to improve them. Competition is what makes BMW care. The lack of competiion is what makes exotic car services less pleasant. Do you folks still remember that fellow who had visited this forum and who bought a Special Edition Maseratti and was unfairly treated. What incentive does Maseratti have to treat customers fairly when there is such a long waiting list for their cars?
I know a friend of a friend who personally knows the one and only Canadian auto mechanic for the MB SLR McLaren and guess what this mechanic thinks about the SLR McLaren? He thinks they are pieces of crap! No kidding! :surprise: And believe me this mechanic is one very busy fellow:
So true. Fun and performance has become far more democraticized in the auto industry. I love it that the GT-R is a Nissan. Why? Because IMO this muscle car exists solely for an enthusiast and not for a luxury badge seeker. Putting that Infiniti grandfather wood trim and that silly archaic Infinitini clock inside a GT-R would be like exhibiting a homely Grandfather clock in the Museum of Modern Art.
seems that lots of exotic cars discussions going on here is a video toyota vs lambo kind of a cheat.
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Dont know enough yet on how the twin turbo V8 performs to answer your question.
But one thing that makes the X6 stand out compared to a current X5 is that it will have far more novel drivetrains: hybrid, twin turbo i6 and twin turbo V8.
Others? Comments?
I went with the Mazdaspeed3 because it was a low-priced bottle rocket that I could enjoy until I decide on a more serious track tool. Being a dyed in the wool RWD enthusiast, I've found that the MS3 is about as entertaining as a FWD car can be. Smooth control inputs are rewarded with above average handling. Still, when people ask me what I think of "Gojira", my responses are either "Place on ground. Light fuse. Get away!" or "Have you ever tried to obedience train a Doberman that is high on crystal meth?"
I have to admit that I cribbed the "Place on ground..." comment from a Brit review oif the E36 M Coupe- the car I would own if I didn't need the ability to carry four people...
I may have mentioned that I
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
I would wait and see if the twin turbo V8 chews up the oil like the N54 does. Some N54 used oil analysis indicates that the oil is well and truly finished at 3000 miles- and the Service Interval System doesnt call for an oil change until @15000 miles.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
You mention "temporary", which is the similar situation with my GTI, until my ordered BMW 135i comes in. I will miss the GTI a whole bunch, as it is a much better vehicle than I ever expected it to be.. but the 135i will let me know I've done the right thing! What vehicle(s) are you considering to replace the Mazdaspeed 3 with?... 135i, 335i, RS4, or RS6???
TagMan
Others? Comments?
Er, the Audi RS6 is not really what I would consider to be "inexpensive", unless you're talking about a used '03, which still commands at least $40K. The new one is going to be near $100K.
To your list I would add the Audi TT-S, and the new S4 if it gets the turbo 6 rather than that heavy V8 from the S5. It's too bad we dont get the S3. The new CTS-V, the Vette, G37, XF-Supercharged, IS-F, Mazda MX-5 and RX-8, C63 AMG, and the Porsche 911.
If the GT-R was going to be an Infiniti, it would have to be like the Jaguar XJ220, which was no wood and leather XJ-S on the inside. It was a pure driving machine. The smart thing about badging the GT-R as a Nissan is that it leaves the door open to do a softer, more luxurious Infiniti version of it, like the XLR to the Vette, except not lousy.
I'll sum up the list later.
TagMan
TagMan
The Infiniti version could still come in much cheaper than the Lexus LF-A or Acura NSX. The "PM" platform and powertrain are already there, Infiniti doesn't need to make anything from scratch like Acura and Lexus. All they need are a new 2+2 coupe body and an Infiniti spec interior, and they've got an M6 killer. It would be the perfect Infiniti halo car.
... as is the new 550i.
So far, here is the latest update on the "inexpensive fun" list. Obviously some of these cars are not all that inexpensive, but keep in mind that criteria behind this list is to highlight cars that offer lots of driving fun and excitement without the hefty price of exotic cars.
(sorry... not alphabetized)
Audi A3
Audi S4
Audi RS4
Audi RS6
Audi TT-S
Porsche Cayman & S
Porsche Boxster & S
Porsche 911 & S
Lotus Elise
Lotus Exige & S
BMW 135i
BMW335i
BMW M3
BMW Z4
VW R32
VW GTI
Subaru Impreza WRX STI
Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution
MazdaSpeed 3
Mazda MX-5
Mazda RX-8
Honda S2000 / CR
Mini Cooper S "Works"
Mercedes SLK55 AMG
Mercedes C63 AMG
Nissan GT-R
Infiniti G37
Jaguar XF (Supercharged)
Jaguar XKR
Lexus IS-F
Ford Mustang / Shelby & Bullitt
Dodge Viper
Cadillac CTS-V
Chevrolet Corvette
Comments? Additions? Deletions? Favorites? Likes? Dislikes?
And... which ones have the most bang for the buck?
TagMan
Horsepower wise I think all BMW's competitors currently have V6s that are more powerful than the NA BMW I6, which tells the limitation of the inline-6 engine. Instead of building a V6, BMW solved the problem by attaching 2 low pressure turbos onto the I6 instead. If the competitors really want to "stick it to BMW" they can as well make TT V6s which will make it impossible for BMW to catch up without a V6. That's primarily the reason why I asked the question about BMW and V6.
Sure the BMW I6 is smooth but anyone who has tried the Lexus' 2GR-FSE would tell you that engine is also the definition of smooth, if not super smooth.
Also, I think the Civic Si also deserves to make that list.
You're forgetting about the Z4M, which uses a normally aspirated 330hp 3.2L straight six. That's more power than Acura, Lexus, Audi, and MB have from any of their V6s, and it matches the G37. If BMW used twin turbos on that engine, I'm sure they could match Nissan's 480hp 3.8L TT V6.
I believe the most powerful normally aspirated 6 is currently Porsche's flat 6 in the GT3 RS, which makes 415hp from 3.6L.
However, I believe one of the reasons why BMW choose TT instead of the 3.2 is due to the lower production cost and better FE.
TM
The TT is also lighter. The old engine was an iron block, and actually weighed more than the M3's new V8. The TT also has far more torque, and that torque is available much lower in the rev range. I would think that in a heavier car like the 5, the 535i would beat a 5 powered by the 3.2 I6 easily.
2009 SL
if thats the case it doesn't sound nice.
Just have to wait and see till it comes out :confuse:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that the inline 6 configuration is superior to the V6 in every significant measure except for packaging efficiency(the V6 is shorter and can also be fitted in both a transverse or longitudal orientation). Prior to the advent of fuel injection, an inline six needed two or more carburetors to assure consistent cylinder to cylinder A/F ratios, but with modern FI and intake configurations that is no longer a problem. As for a V6 making more power than an inline six(or vice versa) the specific power output will be a function of CR, cylinder head design(porting, valve size/number and the combustion chamber shape), valve timing, and intake/exhaust manifolding- not the cylinder configuration.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
Lets widen our horizons to include USED vehicles with special emphasis on AWD or FWD for the Northeastern car nut
Now for the Northeastern-version of the Inexpensive Fun list let me add:
Land Rover Disco '95 (By now all the problems have been sorted out, AWD Plus a stick shift --the only year they offered it in a Disco)
Land Rover Defender Fun in the sand although not cheap
Audi S4 2002 or so Gee, twin turbo, stick shift and AWD for little money
Saab 9-5 Aero any year The high depreciation yet sweet driving Aero is a steal
Jeep Wrangler any year I know, I know, we're not in high school anymore and don't live in Myrtle Beach. Still, these things are a lot of fun for 6K.
Volvo R Series Cop proof exterior, nice 300 HP or so engine, AWD, cheap to buy, cheaper to run
Dodge SR10 Pickup Gee, a Viper V10 in a Pickup must be a lot of fun. Buy one a year or so old after it gets repo-ed from the pizza delivery driver who bought it new
YMMV
Northeast, huh?
The Jeep Wrangler is an everywhere vehicle, especially with the softtop down or the hardtop removed. I had a limited edition Rubicon myself up until about a year or so ago. You are right about it being fun, but I finally couldn't take the pogo stick ride dynamic.
BTW, the all-new Wrangler gets the award for the most plastic ever used in a vehicle. Yikes!...
Bring us back the previous Wrangler with the new tops, a more powerful engine, and adjustable suspension!!
Also, as far as Volvo is concerned, we could probably add the new C30 to the list... as I understand it, that car is quick and fun to drive (and it's certainly easy on the eyes.)
TM
Theoretically speaking a V6 will be more powerful because a shorter, stiffer lighter crank allowing higher revs, and less frictional power losses due to fewer main bearings. However, in reality difference in other aspects of the engines design is going to cause a far greater difference. The main is probably going to be bore size and it's affect on valve sizes.
Also, inline-6 engine is just about as smooth as an engine goes except maybe V12. The smoothest V6 probably would never be able to match that, however Lexus' 2GR-FSE has come pretty close though. Due to that I am wondering if BMW will ever produce a V6 due to the better packaging efficiency and possibly higher potential.
If the LS460's interior is a plastic factory explosion what about Wrangler's?
Nuclastic bomb explosion?
TM
Cheap yes. Fun, no. The 9-5 is pretty awful to drive. A lot of S60Rs have that ugly body kit, which definitely isn't cop proof. That car wasn't too great either. Volvo wouldn't put up the money to widen the track, so the turning circle is even worse than the TL's. I can't think of a worse car to park off the top of my head. It also wasn't all that fast, the autobox was a really bad mismatch for that engine, and there was really bad turbo lag. A last gen G35x would beat a 9-5 or S60R silly for about the same money.
Just about everything I've read on the car says that its platform mates, the Euro Focus and Mazda3, are infinitely better to drive. The Volvo is supposedly the dull one.