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Comments
Good point. The Genesis is probably closer to the Millenia/Amati experiment than the Phaeton. The Phaeton was never a good value, and VW of course already had a luxury brand. It was just the result of an unhinged Dr. Piech, and an army of yes men.
After Amati imploded, Mazda attempted to compete with cars like the ES300 and I30 with the Millenia, which was arguably the better car, and better value at the time, but it didn't really work.
I can definitely see the Genesis (especially the V6) stealing sales from the Avalon, Accord V6, Maxima, 300, and Taurus, and possibly from the ES350, MKZ and MKS, and STS/DTS.
I don't see anybody interested in a 3 series, G35, etc. saying wow, the Genesis is so much bigger, I'll buy that instead! Just not going to happen. Different market.
What bothers me about Hyundai is their inability to introduce a car without liberally lifting the design elements of competitors vehicles that are already on the road. There is simply no "vision" at Hyundai if you will.
I liken it to building a new home. You trot out to the design center, often located in the model home itself, and you pluck your favorite features from the model home's carcass and voila, you have a home that looks eerily similar to your new neighbors' save the color of the siding.
I envision a board room full of Hyundai employees leafing through photo after photo of the competitions' automobiles, then calling down to engineering and saying, "Okay, we've agreed, we'll go with the BMW 3-series tail lights, a tweaked version of the MB grill, and we need the rear pillar between the back/rear windows to look exactly like the Infiniti G35's; got all that? Great! Click.."
That being said, yes, there appears to be value here. Fine. Lest many of us who were around when Hyundai introduced their vehicles to the U.S. forget, this is not "our" Hyundai. I'm sure, like me, many in my age group blindly think the line is garbage and that buying a Hyundai means becoming the butt of jokes, not being envied for driving the latest and greatest luxo-sport sedan. It's not that way any longer. Hyundai is trying to sell this car to us, but more importantly to the younger generation who will recognize them as a "player" in this segment in 10-15 years.
Now me? I leased a black/black BMW M6 coupe 3 weeks ago and I can't describe the feeling I have when I start that 10 cylinder, 500 horse engine, sit in the driver's seat or even glance back at the car while walking up my driveway.
I know I'm not talking about vehicles in the same class, but Hyundai cannot duplicate/deliver that feeling. That's luxury. That's the difference.
Regards,
OW
CHANGE : the first 2 months of production are all 4 wheel drive , then after 2 months , just in time for winter , the factory is going back to 2 wheel drive .
there will be a choice of 2 or 4 wheel drive after the initial production of the first 2 months . My guess is , the extra cost , and loss of fuel economy of 4 wheel drive , caused them to Change their thinking . Originally , the dealers forced the factory to schedule only 4 wheel drive . 3 cheers for the dealers .
right now ... today a customer can get a deal on a LS 460 , as the factory has "put on " some handsome "trunk money" ( cash discounts to the dealers)
mitchell rowe
I thought the LS kicked MB's and other luxury brands' butts in quality, reliability and price with their cars when first introduced, still do but not to a large extent :surprise: . I can't see the Genesis doing all that to Lexus. Without a separate branding, I think Hyundai can not bring their customer service to the level provided by Lexus, because that costs money which I believe Lexus has priced it into their product.
"Ditto. I luv the US luxo believers who dis the Genesis as a cheap example of a desireable alternative that would never earn their $36K!!
How narrow minded!"
OW, I guess you're talking about me :P
No I still say I wont dish out 36k for a Hyundai, particularly since an Acura or Infiniti can be had for the same price.
My take:
When it comes to luxury, the current TL still beats the Genesis. When it comes to performance, the G35 totally kills Gen.
When it comes to resale, the Genesis will almost definitely fall.
That said, I admit the Gen seriously represent value for the money. I disagree that it deserves to be compared with the likes of lexus GS, or even ES. Hyundai still got a long way to go. My guess is the Genesis will be cross shopped by people looking for comfy roomy sedan at good price, making Chrysler 300, Nissan Maxima, Avalon, and Buicks their possible competition.
No I havent driven the Gen myself, but I sat in it and the comfort and quality is still far below even Acura's, but arguably equal, or even better than Infiniti G's. And its big inside, bigger than TL and Gs.
Hyundai still has much to learn to achieve world standard luxury. Even the (formerly) mighty Cadillac fell, and havent been able to bounce back so far. Take Toyota and Honda as example, they both reached the top in...err... about 30 years? They crawled from th bottom, Hyundai needs to do the same, dont be hasty. The time may come someday. Until that day comes though, sorry, Hyundai.
PS: this advice goes to Cadillac as well.
I'm not being narrow minded, just being realistic. Unlike gen, I had doubts about the 1st gen LS400's chance for success, but had no doubts about its quality (my dad actually owned one), as the car had proven its worth in the form of Toyota Crown royal.
Whew, I'm out of Haterade, anybody got some more?... :P
How narrow minded!"
Narrow minded if you diss Hyundai? Since when did Hyundai get on the buying list of posters in this forum? When I was looking to replace my LX and LS, was my shopping list wide and expansive to cover ALL cars? Of course not. I already filtered out and "narrowed" my choices and options down to a small list. If you call that "narrow-minded" so be it :confuse:
As many have posited on this topic, Hyundai needs a lot of things to go right for the Genesis to be a market success - being cheap is only one of it. If Hyundai is aiming for the Gen-Y crowd who have little understanding about heritage and brands ahead of Hyundai, and would rather flock to Hyundai bcos of the Genesis, more power to their marketing group's vision.... Me I don't see a Hyundai competing at the BMW, Lexus, Audi, MB level... Not even close... Maybe 10 years from now.. maybe... But eating the lunch of Chrysler's 300M, or Nissan's Maxima, Toyota's Avalon or others in the near-luxury mid-30K range is absolutely a potential success factor for Hyundai. If their goal is set at Lexus, I assure you they have a lot of miles to cover to be in associative terms with Lexus... many here have already alluded to many of the missing ingredients in Hyundai's lunch plans for the lux-sport space.
But the US presumed luxo's like Caddy, Linky and CRYsler are sitting ducks for this car. Prime Picken's! Texas Toast!
I guess this is a non-US-domestic board 'cause I don't see many domestic luxury owners from the "Can GM make Cadillac the Standard of the World Again?" board over here!
Regards,
OW
the 2008's have trunk money right now .
the 2009 LS460 will be all wheel drive in the first 2 months of production only .
after the first 2 months , the LS460 will be a standard 2 wheel rear drive as before .
THAT IS THEIR CHANGE OF PLANS AND STRATEGY .
the jury is out , as to whether they will keep building 4 wheel drive after the first 2 months . not all of the usa needs 4 wheel drive , there is extra weight , and less mpg .
mitchell rowe
a.k.a NON-"badge chasers." I would risk saying that at least 90% of luxury car buyers are chasing badges and peacocking. Hyundai has come eons from where they were before. The Genesis is a fine looking automobile, inside and out. How it holds up over the long-term is yet to be seen, but if their latest accomplishments are any testiment, the Genesis will do just fine.
Hyundai has some nice vehicles in their lineup. Some of you guys need to get your noses out of the air and check them out. Check out the Sonata. The Tucson. Even the little Elantra. All very nicely put together/designed cars. Heck, Hyundai even has more RWD vehicles on its roster than Acura (zero.) And when the economy re-stabilizes, there will be a Hyundai variant of the Kia Borrego to go up against the Lexus LX (probably.)
You guys need to stop hating and give 'em a chance. Or are you feeling threatened? These are the typical reactions/responses when folks feel like their beloved brands/models are in danger.
But, consider that there are a LOT more buyers that CAN"T afford a high-end Mercedes or BMW, or even a Lexus with its current pricing, than there are those that CAN afford one of the expensive luxury marques. Think about it... MORE folks can afford the Genesis than the high-end HELMs.
This is a huge advantage for the Genesis... putting a decent luxury car that was once a stretch to afford into the hands of those that can now more easily afford it.
This raises some questions about the demographic group that can afford the Genesis, but I do believe that the success of the Chrysler 300 has answered some of them. But, can a Genesis satisfy a Chrysler 300 buyer? Is it better or worse in terms of status and prestige? Afterall, the 300 inherently accepts those massive front grill and wheel modifications. I think the Genesis will be hard-pressed to satisfy THAT type of buyer, but will attract some in that demographic group.
But back to the fact that there are a lot more folks that can afford the Genesis than the traditiional HELMs... folks that can afford to spend $40K on a car, and would love to have a very nice brand new luxury vehicle. What else is out there that will deliver so much bang for the buck? Again, the traditional HELMs are out of reach, and in some cases WAY out of reach...and there we suddenly have the Genesis, delivering near-Lexus level luxury and performance for a mere fraction of the price. So, how can this not be a winning scenario? The Genesis certainly helps redefine the Hyundai badge, and delivers a massive value that is nearly unprecedented.
For the serious HELM buyer, the Genesis is just a Hyundai.
however...
For the $40K lux buyer, the Genesis might just be the no-brainer slam-dunk value of the century.
To be continued...
TM
No this is not a scene of some freak accident during the shooting of Iron Man 2 nor is it Top Gear testing crashing another supercar. According to reports a 33-year old man from Netherlands took a brand new Audi R8 for a test drive when he lost control and drove it into a river bank.
No one was hurt during the accident besides the Audi R8 which is enough to make us weep. Officials say the man was traveling at least 80 mph but onlookers say that he was going at least 125 mph when he hit a bump on the road
I'll throw in with you. People who care mostly about the actual performance and fit/finish of a car often look at things differently from those who expect to be respected, based on what they're driving. Respect my a-car-a-tay!! (this requires knowledge of South Park and should pretty much exclude the upper crust -- the would-be upper crust, maybe not so much).
Oh, and I'd suggest substituting "luxury car drivers," since I believe the majority lease -- they are not buyers.
I personally believe that Hyundai is like Toyota-Honda in their late 70s or early 80s, gaining popularity, slowly rising but still not there yet. Reliability improves a lot, I admit, and their products look much much better than the previous gen. Another decade may bring them up even higher, when that time comes Hyundai will be ready with the right image, enough cash in the pocket to create a whole luxury division INCLUDING the proper customer service for luxo-customers. This Hyundai doesnt have, yet.
Unfortunately from what I see Hyundai is becoming impatient, hastily chasing the Japanese luxo brands when they're not ready yet. Hyundai however, is pretty much ready to face the lesser premium brands, Chrysler and Buick to name a few. Know their limits, and play along, is what I'm trying to say. If I'm shopping for a Buick or Lincoln, I'd definitely check out the Genesis. If I'm looking at Acura or Lexus as my next car, forget it. Not yet.
Those buying Lexus-Acura-Infiniti thinking they're not getting a rebadged/facelifted Toyota-Honda-Nissan should look again at this list:
Lexus=Toyota:
IS=Altezza, GS=Aristo, LS=Celsior, ES=Camry, LX=LC Cygnus, GX=LC Prado, RX=Harrier
Infiniti=Nissan:
G=Skyline, M=Fuga (formerly Gloria), Q=President
Acura=Honda:
TSX=Euro Accord, TL=Inspire, NSX is actually badged a Honda almost everywhere else
Buying a Lexus = buying a rebadged toyota? Yes, but even those in the know can still tell the difference, particularly in their ownership experience, not just great quality cars inside out but also premium customer service that really justify spending the extra $$$. Hyundai currenty doesnt deliver such experience.
Oh and LG you got a great guide there, what about doing the same with other cars, possibly creating your own website?
I cant help this, but TM can you tell me how much a CPO 911 should cost? either an 05-06. Cant help but ask, the 911 poisoned my brain cells already...
I can actually dish out a few more grands, but that means cutting my budget on new speakers.... ohh I cant decide!!!
I'll check it out, but what's your geographic location and zip code? It can make a difference in the $$.
TM
Stretching to buy a car!!! Hmmmm,,,,, May want to stop and rethink that idea.... :sick:
however...
For the $40K lux buyer, the Genesis might just be the no-brainer slam-dunk value of the century.
I am curious.... Can anyone find out and post the sales record for Hyundai circa MY2007 to date? I'd like to see how Hyundai has been doing in the US with their stable of horses... If the Azenia was priced just above the Sonata and should compete against the Avalon/Maxima club, what is the Genesis' main demographic? 20-something, 30-something,40-something? or older?
BMW and Audi pretty much have the youngest of the lux-sport owners - mid-30ish.. MB the oldest - early 60ish, and Lexus in-between at just around 50... At least this was the survey I last read back a year or so ago. What demographics currently buy Hyundais, and would this demographic expand and reach upwards for a Genesis after several stints with the Sonata and its younger brethrens... And is there a yawning gap in the market that Hyundai is filling with the Genesis?
I guess I am a tad unsure of the market strategy for Hyundai. Lexus's strategy was pretty clear... they had a strong global brand in Toyota (Landcruiser, Corolla, etc), but Hyundai really has nothing that leaps to mind.... What emotion does a Hyundai Sonata, Santa Fe, Azenia or Accent bring to mind? And then let's take a leap of faith to ask if the thought of a lux-sport Genesis gets a buyer at $40K excited? And would that buyer feel he/she purchased the "best" $40K lux-sport car for his/her money?
Jus' sayin' that's all...
I know I'm not talking about vehicles in the same class, but Hyundai cannot duplicate/deliver that feeling. That's luxury. That's the difference.
The M6 isn't my kind of car, but I agree with your point. Ironically, I feel rather the same about the Genesis as I do about the Bentley Continental GT. The Hyundai ticks all the required "large luxury car" boxes, which in itself is impressive considering Acura hasn't managed to do even that yet. Roomy? Check. V8 option? Check. RWD? Check.
Is there anything special about it though? No. I think the lack of any badge on the front makes its generic-ness even worse. It's mildly attractive in a "this could've been made by anyone" sort of way, the interior is, at best "not bad", and I agree with Edmunds that the inside of the trunk is sorely lacking. I like it better than the Taurus, 300, and Avalon, and its no more generic looking overall than the MKS, though the Lincoln is better on the inside.
There's no way I'd pay $40K for one though, not when there are plenty of XJRs, M45s, A6 4.2s, and even V8 Volvo S80s around for less money. You can spend a little over 30 grand on an XJR, and never feel like you settled. You can pull up to the fanciest Hotel or Restaurant in town, and feel just as special as the guy getting out of the brand new S550. You'll never have to wait in line behind a bunch of econoboxes at the service dept.
The Jag despite its aging looks still oozes class, especially in British green or gray, riding on big R alloys. The Genesis doesn't. It's just a large car.
By V. Phani Kumar, MarketWatch
Last update: 10:13 p.m. EDT Aug. 20, 2008Comments: 4HONG KONG (MarketWatch) -- Toyota Motor Corp. plans to reduce its 2009 sales forecast to 9.8 million vehicles from the 10.4 million it projected earlier, reflecting a weakening demand for automobiles in world's major economies, the Nikkei business daily reported Thursday.
The new target includes sales by group companies such as Daihatsu Motor Co. (JP:7262: news, chart, profile) and Hino Motors (JP:7205: news, chart, profile) (HINO.Y:hino mtrs ltd adr
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8:10pm 08/19/2008
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HINO.Y 50.00, -0.50, -1.0%) , the report added. It didn't cite a source.
The automotive giant, which is widely expected to unseat rival General Motors Corp. (GM:General Motors Corporation
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GM 10.16, +0.21, +2.1%) as the world's largest automaker by the end of this year, last month cut its 2008 sales forecast to 9.5 million cars and trucks from 9.85 million.
In the first half of 2008, Toyota (TM:toyota motor corp sp adr rep2com
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TM 88.19, -0.73, -0.8%) (JP:7203: news, chart, profile) toppled GM as the world's largest automobile company, with sales of more than 4.8 million cars and trucks, compared with GM's 4.54 million vehicles.
Toyota is suffering from the same consumer shift away from bigger vehicles that has plagued U.S. manufacturers as high fuel prices and the persistent housing woes continue to sap demand, especially for trucks and sports utility vehicles.
Toyota shares fell as much as 0.8% in Tokyo morning trading.
Varahabhotla Phani Kumar is a reporter in MarketWatch's Hong Kong bureau.
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Comments: 4
i predicted this many times, even though i got a lot of thumbs down, their prior projections were too rosy
i made my deduction on the imploding u.s. auto market
- ShowMeTheMoney200
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(4) - View Comments on this story
You're right! That is the basic sentiment in here. :P
Also right about the lease thing. BMW's lease:buy ratio is, what, 3:1? If someone does buy a luxury car, I'll throw another guesstimate out there that 98% of the time it's used. How can I say 98% when I just said the lease:buy ratio is 3:1? Because of the used car factor.
I'm not a statistitian, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express one time. (So that you show you how smart I'm not! :P )
Correct me if I'm wrong, but not once has Hyundai proclaimed the Genesis to be a sport sedan. Why can't manufacturers build (and consumers buy) just a luxury sedan if they want to?? I blaim the auto rags for this. For some mysterious reason, they have to try to pidgeon-hole every 4-door car made today into the "sport sedan" category. Why can't some sedans just be luxury cruisers as the manufacturer intended? Why can't some sedans just be appliances as the manufacturer intended?
BMW has ruined the car market in a sense with all this "sport sedan" hubbub. Sometimes folks just want to get from A to B in a bit of luxury; nothing more, nothing less. (This coming from a man with an '08 550i Sport w/ 6-speed manual.) You know, there is a market for people that just want to drive in style and not barrel around every corner/curve they encounter. Otherwise there would be no Camry, Corolla, Taurus, Accord, Lexus in general, 300, et. al. Why not just let the Genesis be what it is. A new beginning of just a luxury car, not a barn burner. For the barn burners, the Genesis coupe will be available sometime next year.
That is not true anymore.
Lexus has move away from the lets-rebadge-a-JDM-Toyota type of strategy. As matter of fact, that was never their strategy, it was more like lets-rebadge-a-USDM-Lexus for the GS, LS, GX and RX since before 2006 there was no Lexus in Japan.
The only truly rebadged Lexus from JDM Toyota is the first-generation IS300, which was the Altezza.
TL=Inspire
The JDM Inspire is our Honda Accord, not TL. You forgot that Legend = RL...
And the GS which is/was the Aristo in Japan and the LS which is/was the Celsior. I lived in Japan for a while back in the '90s so I'm fairly positive on that. But you're correct that their Inspire is our Accord. Although, they do have an Accord there, too, except their Accord is better equipped than our Accord. (At least it used to be.) I believe our TL is their Accord. Yet our TSX is Europe's Accord. :confuse:
Yes, the GS was the Aristo and the LS was the Celsior but my point was: Did (1) Toyota design them at the same time but just ended up selling them as Lexus here and Toyota in Japan (because before 2006 there was no Lexus in Japan) or (2) they were like the IS300 which was totally a rebadge Altezza because the Altezza was already on sale in Japan for a while before Lexus decided to bring it over.
Big difference between the two you know...
I believe our TL is their Accord. Yet our TSX is Europe's Accord.
The JDM Accord is very similar to the Euro Accord, just with minor exterior differences and possibly different engine choices.
I think your comps. LG, between new cars and used ones is great for us on this forum, and it makes a lot of sense... but, most new car buyers compare new cars to new cars.
Those of you, gentlemen, that don't realize that the Hyundai Genesis is just the beginning, take a look at THIS. Hyundai is already planning its next assault... and it may very well be even more impressive than the Genesis.
Here's the scoop:
spy-video-hyundai-vg-luxury-sedan-to-take-on-bmw-7-series
Perceptions can and will change. Just look at the history of the Japanese cars, and how they were first perceived, and compare that to today's views of Lexus.
I'm just telling it like it is. Hyundai is a powerful and determined company, with tremendous resources and connections, that can pull this off (over time)... and they WILL.
TM
It's very easy to find this out yourself. Just go to Autotrader, select Porsche and put in your zip code, click Certified cars only, and put in the location range of dealers and model years you want to look at. Under "more search criteria" there's a full list of options like transmission type, number of driven wheels, mileage limits, and even paint color.
Let's see what m4d_cow comes up with.
TM
Actually, I like the Fuga better than what we get as the M. I've posted on this before. The Japanese get some really cool interior color and trim choices that don't make it to the US. You can't walk into an Infiniti dealer and ask for an M in brown alligator leather with burl walnut trim, or black with matte black trim, or tan with piano black lacquer. The Japanese get all of those choices, in addition to the combinations we get. It's not fair
I'm just telling it like it is. Hyundai is a powerful and determined company, with tremendous resources and connections, that can pull this off (over time)... and they WILL.
Most likely you are correct on this. The Genesis is a very good first effort, infinitely better than the XG350 (and a better car than the RL) but it just doesn't blow me away at this juncture. When Hyundai comes back with better trim, better performance, and better styling, I'll take a look.
TM
The 2010 Audi RS5 is a GO.
Here's the scoop:
link title
Hmmmm... Me likes.
TM
How about these specs?...
200mph top speed, 0-60mph in 3.7 seconds, and fuel economy figures of up to 83mpg!! :surprise:
link title
TM
Since I joined this forum I have always appreciated your posts, and when I read you were going for the 135i I knew you would absolutely be amazed with the dynamics of the vehicle! Personally I can honestly say my 550i is the best car I have ever driven or owned, PERIOD. Driving and comparing the M6, M5 & 535i, I always come back to the 550i. I have not driven a 135i as of yet, and sort of afraid to as everyone I know that has one simply loves it.
There are faster cars, more luxurious cars and more exotic cars... but I wonder if the overall dynamics in the handling and feel of a BMW will ever be beat by a vehicle in a comparable price range.
Have yopu joined your local BMW CCA Chapter yet? The auto-x and road trip can really be a blast! :shades:
On her 16th b'day, we bought her an A4 with the Sport pkgt. But there are the 3 cardinal rules to keeping the car:
- no boys in the car
- no lowering of school grades
- no traffic tickets of any kind.
Think it'll work? :P
For those whose names I mispelled, my sincere apologies.
Whatever they want to say about me regarding my thoughts on Hyundai, I wont change my mind. Vulcans delay the human's advance :P , I watch and wait for Hyundai's advance to the luxo territory.
I agree Hyundai is ready to move up to near-luxury level. I recognize the Genesis as a near luxo deserving another look from Chrysler and Buick, and even Avalon and Lincoln customers. When they come up with proper customer service worthy of a luxury brand, and upgrade the car to meet current standards, I will treat them as equals to the current Japanese and import luxos. All things said, Cadillac better watch out, Hyundai's catching up fast. A few years from now GM will need more than just the CTS to keep up.
People can argue all they want about helping Hyundai making an advance, heck I can do that myself. but when reality comes in I decide to make decisions based on my hard earned paycheck
Like I said, the time will come, but not now.
An A4 is definitely a good choice for a new driver. If she's responsible, I think she'll be fine. Has she taken any driving courses, and by that I don't mean Drivers Ed where they teach you how to stop at a sign and parallel park. I mean a real driving course. If not, sign her up for one. Good luck!
I do plan to make time to drive one for myself. Will a Genesis replace my S6? No.
Good Luck! My daughter turns 15 in October. I'm not too far behind you!
I was thinking about buying her some driving lessons. I remember someone had their daughter log hundreds of hours before she got her license but was well prepared for that first legal drive from the training at the courses.
Regards,
OW
It's an entry level for sure but a real good package for someone in that price range.
Regards,
OW
Thank you. You know, I've seen worse misspellings of my "name."
As long as you don't misspell "rum cake", we can still be friends.
As for anyone confusing a Genesis with offerings from Lexus, MB and BMW, it ain't gonna happen.
Hyundai should have established its own separate luxury division and then taken time to build it up, as other companies have done.
Hyundai seems to know very little about consumer psychology. Cqn't see many folks stepping up to the plate to shell out $42k for anything named "Hyundai".
Hyundai should have established its own separate luxury division and taken time to build it up, as others have done.
Equus (sp?)