Luxury Lounge

brightness04

The $800-900 number was given as the asking price on 335i convertibles, with current MF and full MSRP (if not dealership surcharges). If the 335i asks that much, the consumer may as well spring for a 911, which would be within striking distance. My sentence structure may have been ambiguous; my bad.

dewey

Hundred percent of all Toyota (and I presume all Lexus models) will be hybrid by 2020 based on the info below.

2020? Talk about a long long term plan.

Masatami Takimoto, Toyota’s executive vice president in charge of powertrain development, told media yesterday that the company’s reduction efforts on hybrid powertrains would enable its margins on hybrids to equal those on petrol-only vehicles by 2010 or soon thereafter, and 10 years later, Toyota expects all its vehicles to feature its Hybrid Synergy Drive system.

Toyota is likely to sell its one-millionth hybrid vehicle this month, having sold 998,900 by the end of April, 313,000 last year, and a targeted 430,000 units in 2007. By 2020, Mr Takimoto expected hybrids to become the standard drivetrain and account for "100 percent" of Toyota's vehicles.

Prius production will rise by 40% to 280,000 units this year; its next iteration is expected to feature a lithium-ion battery, currently under development with Matsushita Electric Industrial Co.

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hpowders

Hard to believe that a 335i convertible can come reasonably close to a 911 in monthly leasing payments. Must be those expensive special order cup-holders in the BMW, you know-
the ones that actually work! :surprise:

hpowders

I was thinking along the lines of a modestly-optioned $100k 911 Carrera convertible. No way for $1200 a month!
But at least some po' boy 911's can be had for that monthly payment.

I do believe any good Porsche lease deals that can be had is due to being able to negotiate a significantly lower vehicle price than its MSRP. It's certainly not because of the mediocre 57% residual.

tagman

Dewey - a number of years ago, his promise was that every Toyota model would have a hybrid option within ten years.

Now, we see the promise was sincere, but may not be kept exactly as was made. Regardless, the goal is clear. It will be standard procedure for Toyota and Lexus cars and trucks to have that extra electric motor(s) and batteries by 2020... and I have little doubt that it will happen relatively close to the goal, IMO.

Also, IMO, a significant percentage of the rest of the entire model spectrum by all manufacturers will conform and be hybrid. There will also be a percentage of other alternative approaches, and who knows... maybe, just maybe Honda and BMW will prevail with their hydrogen cars and impact the direction of everyone in the process.

Read this about BMW's hydrogen cars, eight of which will hit the UK as early as next week!!

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There's something interesting in the very last line in the article:

Together with clean performance diesel cars and the technologically advanced hybrid systems currently under development, the BMW Group has a clear strategy for sustainable mobility with hydrogen as the ultimate goal.

Hydrogen as BMW's ultimate goal? Interesting!

TagMan

tagman

Y'know Hpowders, as you know, I haven't crowed much about my 911 Carrera S Cabriolet. But with these recent posts I just want you to know that the current 997 is the best 911 ever made, IMO, and when I consider every car I've ever owned, I think it ranks as one of the very best, if not THE best car I've ever owned in my life!

It is an absolute joy to drive... especially with the top down... and fortunately sunny California makes that possible almost all the time!

Only one drawback... Top down means interior needs to be cleaned more often... you'd be surprised at how much dust gets in over the course of a week. (I'm not complaining, though!)

What a blast... and so nicely done.

Anyway, I LOVE this 911! I figure it's time I said so!

TagMan

dewey

This A5/S5 Independent review from the UK is not exactly stellar. But the real praise for this car is towards its 3.0L V6 turbodiesel.

Last chance time. There's another A5 to try, this one with a 3.0-litre V6 turbodiesel with 240bhp on tap. The 369lb ft of torque (more than the S5 manages) sounds alluring, and so it proves. This A5 has the energy out of tight corners lacking in the other two, exploited effectively by the Quattro-drive transmission. This eagerness helps to disguise the A5's perceived bulk, so you can enjoy its effortless pace – it reaches 62mph in 5.9 seconds, for heaven's sake – the deep but subdued six-cylinder thrum, the tidy gear-change and a ride more supple than the S5's. It's still no BMW in the way it tackles corners, but this is the A5 that best hints at Dr Glaser's hopes.

It's also the A5 with the driving feel best matched to the mature-GT aura that I think Audi is trying to create. The mindset created here goes well with the cabin's design and quality, and with details such as a two-mode electric parking brake. I liked the A5 3.0 TDI. But the marketing department clearly lacks the vision to justify its power.

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dewey

Tagman,

here's an interesting BMW 330 turbodiesel review

And Howard forget that cabrio and X3. Get an upcoming diesel sedan instead. My future car will definitely not be a gas ICE version of any car:

We recently spent a week driving a BMW 330d in and around Detroit, and it proved to be every bit the enthusiast driving machine you’d expect, except at the fuel pump. This model of the 3 Series sedan isn’t sold here (for reasons we’ll get to), but we got our hands on this example imported for engineering tests by Honeywell Turbo Technologies, a company you may know better for its trademark Garrett turbochargers.

Rated at 228 hp, the 3.0-liter, direct-injection turbo-diesel clatters only a tiny bit at cold start-up and not at all when you lift off the throttle to shift or corner. Most of the time, you’d be hard-pressed to notice it’s a diesel, except for the abnormally low redline of 4800 rpm (the last 800 rpm of which doesn’t see much use).

Up to that speed, it is as smooth and silky as any BMW inline-six, though it’s down 72 hp and peaks 1800 rpm earlier than the gasoline-edition 335i. Give up more than 70 hp? Didn’t we just say there was no hair shirt involved here? Yes, we did, and here’s why: The turbodiesel cranks out a V8-like 369 lb-ft of torque at a mere 1750 rpm, or 69 lb-ft more than the gas model. And this 330d was wearing M Sport badges, indicative of the sport handling package.

Around town, it feels faster than the 335i, though probably isn’t when measured against the clock. But it quickly responds to throttle inputs, unless you’ve let the revs sink so low (say, to 1200 rpm) that a sensitive backside will notice the bit of lag from the variable-vane Garrett turbo. Turn the traction control off, and have a tail-waggin’ good time.

You don’t need to work the shifter and rev band much, and numerous testers have proven that it is faster than the gasoline model if you leave it in top gear and plant your foot at highway speeds to make a pass....

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tagman

Dewey - The 330d sounds awesome. I think you've got the Audi story linked where the 330d story should be, however. Try to edit your post or re-post the correct link... OK?
TagMan

tagman

My future car will definitely not be a gas ICE version of any car:

I completely understand and agree, but definately to a point.

The Porsche 911 Carrera S Cab and it's wonderful gas ICE makes a darned good exception to that.

I also look forward, as you VERY well know, to the new upcoming diesels... and even very possibly the hybrids of the future.

TagMan

brightness04

13 years is quite a ways off. It would be funny if the 100% promise fails because over-achievement: i.e. some models may only have the electrical system and no internal combustion engine to "hybridize" . . . e.g. if fuelcell a la Honda's techno showcase becomes a viable reality for normal cars made for volume sale, perhaps using something other than hydrogen as fuel source (e.g. natural gas, propane, butane, or even gasoline itself to provide hydrogen on-demand for a fuel cell reactor)

lexusguy

This A5/S5 Independent review from the UK is not exactly stellar. But the real praise for this car is towards its 3.0L V6 turbodiesel.

Interesting review. It's very disappointing to see Audi go to all that effort to fix their handling problems, and then say "but Audi buyers like our handling problems" and decide to go back on everything at the end, like a TV show. Hopefully at least the Quattro guys won't listen to what the brilliant Audi marketing department has to say.

syswei

Dewey - a number of years ago, his promise was that every Toyota model would have a hybrid option within ten years. Now, we see the promise was sincere, but may not be kept exactly as was made.

He said that about 2-3 years ago. Don't you think we should wait another 7-8 years before talking about unkept promises? There is room for 100% of models to be offered with a hybrid option 7-8 years from now, and 100% of all unit production to have a hybrid powertrain in 2020, is there not?

Do you leap to conclusions about German carmakers' unkept promises, 7-8 years ahead of time?

designman

From the excerpt Dewey posted:

"Most of the time, you’d be hard-pressed to notice it’s a diesel, except for the abnormally low redline of 4800 rpm (the last 800 rpm of which doesn’t see much use)."

If I get a diesel it will be as a high mileage, low-end torque utility vehicle that has a high life expectancy. They are also stealthy without the engine screaming. However the lack of a high redline takes the sport right out of the car. Any true sport lover will miss this factor. Porsches don't come alive until 4800 RPM.

jlbl

Mmm… it is entirely different with diesels. You should wait to drive one of these to feel the force between 2000-4000 hrp

Regards,
Jose

hpowders

I'm sure it is a fantastic ride!

hpowders

Believe me, Dewey. If the BMW diesels come out within the next 14 months, I will drive one. The problem is finding fuel. Nearest diesel is 17 miles!

designman

I'm sure I will like them and they are quite desirable for many. I'm just pointing out a difference between deisels and high redline engines. The divide is clear.

;-)

dewey

Here is the correct link to that BMW 330d article:

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The Porsche 911 Carrera S Cab and it's wonderful gas ICE makes a darned good exception to that

How can I say no to that. You've persuaded me.

I do think that our family 530xi touring wagon would be amazing as a diesel but when I read the following lines of the linked article I have no regrets that I didn't wait to buy a 330d instead of my 335i.

The diesel engine note is not objectionable in any way, but neither is it as entertaining as the gasoline model. We never were tempted to turn the radio off just to listen to the drivetrain, something we did do in the 335i.

The BMW 330d costs about $1,700 more than a 335i in Germany. There, the differential in fuel costs and taxation can make the tradeoff worthwhile. Here, if still another layer of pollution controls is needed and where, in most states, there’s not much difference in gas and diesel prices, there’s less certainty that the marketplace would respond. That’s why it might be a good idea to tell BMW if you’re interested.

tagman

Do you leap to conclusions about German carmakers' unkept promises, 7-8 years ahead of time?

syswei - If you read my post, I said that the original promise MAY not be kept. I certainly didn't "leap to conclusions". But, since you mention this I'll let you know that the reason I said that is because there is now a NEW promise with a further target date and a broader achievement. Certainly it is possible for the original promise to be kept, but the new one is even more ambitious than the original!! Wow! And if anybody is in a position to do this, it is Toyota. It is quite a vision of the future.

I also suggested in my post that there is always the chance that an alternative technological breakthrough occurs and everyone shifts gears, including Toyota, but that is an unknown... but always a potential.

Anyway... no leaping to conclusions here, just recognizing the ever-changing environment.

And one more thing syswei - let's be very clear here that this is one area that I have absolutely zero criticism towards Toyota for this ambitious goal, and I applaud them for their vision and leadership.

TagMan

tagman

dewey - When the diesels come out, if they are placed in cars or SUVs that I otherwise don't care for... I wouldn't likely buy the car or SUV just for the sake of the diesel engine. I truly need to like the vehicle itself. That is my concern as these diesels make their appearances.

Currently, I drive the Porsche 911 Carrera S and an FJ Cruiser. My needs are clear... Fun/performance car and fun SUV/utility vehicle. My wife, however, drives her MDX and only rarely her XJ Vanden Plas (which admittedly bugs me that she uses it so little). She needs a 7-passenger SUV and an "alternative".

Where does the diesel fit in? Possibly my second vehicle, but what? Possibly the wife's SUV (MB GL diesel?). Maybe even her "alternative" vehicle, but again what?

So, as much as I love these upcoming diesels, I hope they place them in cars or SUVs that we actually want!

TagMan

dewey

BMW shareholders' revolt: demand for bigger part in profits

May 15, 2007, 11:07 GMT

Munich - Shareholders in BMW revolted Tuesday, demanding at a Munich meeting that the board grant them a bigger proportion of the German automaker's sparkling profits.

'Don't just be a premium company with your cars, but with your dividends as well,' Daniela Bergdolt, spokesperson for shareholder rights group DSW told directors at the annual general meeting.

She said only 20 per cent of earnings were being granted to shareholders. The board has proposed to increase the 2006 dividend to 70 cents per ordinary share, a gain of 9 per cent from a year earlier.

BMW earnings have steadily set new records. The marque has overtaken Mercedes-Benz as the biggest German maker of premium cars and has developed huge sales for its sports utility vehicle (SUV) lines.

Chief executive Norbert Reithofer announced Tuesday a major expansion at the company's US site at Spartanburg, South Carolina, to offset the threat to profits from the strengthening euro currency.

The next-generation X3 mid-size SUV will be built there instead of by subcontractor Magna Steyr in Austria. Industry sources say the model changeover is likely in 2010. Last year 113,000 of the X3 cars were sold.

The bigger X6, a new model, is also to be made at Spartanburg. A four-wheel-drive car, it will resemble BMW's X5 but look somewhat like a coupe. It comes to market at the end of next year.

The site expansion will push Spartanburg's capacity from 140,000 currently to well over 200,000. BMW's principal manufacturing centres are in Germany's Bavaria state.

'In our largest single market, the United States, we sell far more vehicles than we locally manufacture,' said the chief executive. This had harmed earnings at a time when the dollar is weak.

He said the weak dollar and yen had cost the company 666 million euros (900 million dollars) in pretax profits last year.

Earnings also sagged in the first quarter, with sales level, but BMW believed it could achieve a fresh annual record in total sales of its BMW, Mini and Rolls-Royce cars by the end of the year, Reithofer said.

He predicted pretax earnings would beat the 3.8 billion euros of 2006, a figure which does not include one-off earnings from a convertible bond. Including that extraordinary item, the company's pretax came out at 4.1 billion euros.

dewey

I can see your point.

I envision my future garage consisting of a gas engined manual sports sedan or roadster (BMW or a Porsche) and most likely a lithium ion hybrid Prius "Type C" for the family. My wife hardly drives since our house and work is near a subway line. Our 530xi touring wagon has only 11 k miles on it after 13 months of driving.

The type C Prius will be based on the Hybrid X Concept shown in the last Geneve Auto Show:



SOURCE: AUTOMOBILE MAGAZINE

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Toyota displayed its Hybrid X concept, which has been misinterpreted by some as the next-generation Prius. It isn't. Instead, three new hybrid Toyotas--known internally as Prius A, B, and C--are expected to debut in 2009, 2010, and 2011. The explanation for the change-up? According to a source at the company, all future Toyota hybrids will bear the Prius nameplate. The three letters denote the three vehicle sizes--smaller than the current Prius, roughly the same size as today's Prius, and bigger than the Prius. All three will be uniquely styled and will bear no resemblance to conventional Toyotas. (This effectively means that after its current model cycle, the Camry Hybrid will cease to exist.) The new shapes will be stylish and spacious; they'll stand out from the mainstream but won't be as controversial and odd-looking as the first- and second-generation Priuses.

While all three new models will be space-efficient, they won't be wagons or vans. The challenge for Toyota's engineering and design teams lies in striking a balance that leaves enough underfloor space for batteries while creating a roomy cabin with comfortable seating for five and a large luggage compartment.

Sizewise, the next generation of Priuses will mimic Toyota's existing lineup. The Prius A is marked to be Yaris-sized, the Prius B will be slightly larger than the current Prius but less unconventional and more practical inside, and the Prius C is targeted to be slightly smaller than today's Camry. (The C, incidentally, will borrow its design language and inspiration from the Hybrid X--but it also will be roomier, taller, and more traditionally attractive.)

tagman

According to a source at the company, all future Toyota hybrids will bear the Prius nameplate.

How does that stay consistent with their promise that every Toyota and Lexus will be a hybrid by the year 2020? If every hybrid is called a Prius, what would that leave for Toyota?

TagMan

houdini1

Hmmm...if all toyota hybrids will be Prius's then how does that square with their stated objective of having the hybrid option available on all cars in 7 or 8 years?

dewey

Houdini and Tagman,

I think differentiation is the reason?

Usually when people think of hybrids they think of Priuses.
In future years hyrbids may become as mainstream as automatic transmissions. So one way for Toyota to stand out from the crowd of other hybrids is to use the "Prius name" as a HSD label. Sort of like how Audi had exploited the name Quattro for all its vehicles after the introduction of its AWD coupe a few decades ago.

tagman

In that case, EVERY Toyota will be a Prius, since they promise that EVERY Toyota will be hybrid!!

I'm getting suspicious. I see this as not being consistent, or else they will have to change their strategy (or promise) mid-stream.

TagMan

tagman

dewey & houdini - Let's consider that the Prius name is used on all the hybrids for a while, but Toyota has other plans for continued gas ICE, diesels, and even hydrogen. Those "other" vehicles would not use the Prius badge.

Toyota isn't about to give up its name, but at the same time the Prius name has proven itself to be very valuable and has great consumer perception and awareness. Perhaps Toyota will spin a new badge, in the same way the Scion badge co-exists.

Are we going the route of GM here, with all those divisions? Could be. Let's see... Toyota dealerships, Scion dealerships, Prius dealerships, ???

Will Lexus also need to do something to distinguish the hybrid models?

TagMan

syswei

According to a source at the company, all future Toyota hybrids will bear the Prius nameplate.

How does that stay consistent with their promise that every Toyota and Lexus will be a hybrid by the year 2020? If every hybrid is called a Prius, what would that leave for Toyota?

Sometimes the press is just off, or has misquoted.

brightness04

GM did well with brand multiplication for 50 years (1920-1970). As companies grow, having more brands often helps market differentiation. The devil is in the details. Mini is a success story, whereas Smart and Maybach are not.

esf

That's what I read on a Lexus press release, which I found on some other website. Odd, I know.

'06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG • '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet • '04 Lexus RX330

esf

I read an American review (AutoWeek) and theirs was glowing- I just think it's the Brits being themselves. They nit-pick, finding every little flaw in each car... and on the other hand, AutoWeek's A5/S5 review made me want to go out and buy one. They took the most beautiful picture of it I've ever seen.

'06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG • '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet • '04 Lexus RX330

esf

How happy have you been with your 911? Although it will be two years until I replace the S4, I can't help but think about owning one of the more high-end sports cars out there. A C4S Cabriolet is very high on my list.

My criteria:

• Four seats would be ideal. Are the back seats suitable for humans in the Porsche? Because they aren't in the Jaguar XKR.

• It has to be under $2,000/mo for financing, when all is said and done. Consider that my S4 would probably pull in $30K and I'd put some down ($5K-10K).

• Faster than my S4, but not too fast.

Now, I'm willing to throw the idea of four seats out the window for the possible Audi R8 Spyder. After seeing an R8 coupe in person in Los Angeles, the car has me hooked. I love the 911 and it will never get old, but the R8... wow. Wow! It's just as beautiful as any Aston Martin, if not more so. I am wondering if the R8 Spyder would be worth the extra $10-15K over the Porsche (my C4S would be about $112K)... if it's even remotely accessible. Oh, decisions, decisions.

'06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG • '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet • '04 Lexus RX330

tagman

My point was that Toyota may go the GM route of quite a few model divisions, beyond the Scion, Toyota, and Lexus, and now possibly add a Prius badge.

Yes, GM demonstrated their success with their divisions in the early decades. I don't know it has been as smart in recent times for them as it was in their peak. Chrysler killed Plymouth, however. And Ford's Mercury is questionable to me. And, I wouldn't rule out Smart just yet.

TagMan

tagman

How happy have you been with your 911?

Are the back seats suitable for humans in the Porsche? Because they aren't in the Jaguar XKR.

I couldn't be happier with it. The 2007 911 Carrera S, in the Coupe or Cab, is simply a great car. I prefer my Cab, but a good friend of mine has the Coupe and loves it. I think that the 997 is one of the best produced 911's ever made. The interior is terrific and the ride is awesome, not to mention that it's a great looker.

The rear jump seats are for short rides, and for kids. No adults should ever venture there, IMO. But they do come in handy now and then. I've put the kids back there many times. They don't complain if it's a short ride. A long ride... and you'll hear about it. They just have fun being in the car, especially with the top down. My daughter takes over the stereo, of course... which, BTW, is VERY good if you get the upgrade option.

All in all, it's a blast to drive and still takes care of the driver with its nice amenities. But when you put your foot to the floor and take it for a dance, you instantly know why you bought it.

And it's not a short-lived thrill that wears off, like some cars. It's the real thing... a long-term keeper.

You owe it to yourself to test one, if you haven't already.

TagMan

dewey

First and foremost I do admire various Audi models like the A8/S8/R8 and the RS4 and the soon to be RS5. But having said that the A5/S5 may not be as impressive.

Can the A5 3.2-liter V6 outhandle and outperform a BMW 335xi? The answer is a liekly no. It most likely will be competive to a lower level BMW 328xi. And the S5 will likely be slightly more competitive to a lower level BMW 335xi if not equal.

And if you dont like rowing your own gears the A5/S5 wont even be available with the highly acclaimed DSG tranny.

And the BMW offers 335i in RWD configuration which Audi does not. The 335i may actually be advantageous in terms of performamce and handling when compared to a higher priced S5 (in non-snowy and non rainy days).

Actual comparison road tests will be need to verify what I am saying. But 4.9 seconds to 62 miles for the S5 sounds a bit too close to the BMW 335 in terms of actual tested performance. I know, I know comparing AWD with RWD is like comparing bananas with kiwis. But how about comparing the S5 with a soon to be hyper RWD coupe like the Infiniti G37?

The biggest disappointment that Lexusguy was referring to was that the new A4/A5 platform was suppose to change everything for Audi and the A4/A5 will soon become stellar handlers that can hold their own against RWD competition. Apparently it sounds like nothing has changed.

Here's a blurb from a Globe and Mail A5 Review:

This is more luxury than performance machine — treads aren't very aggressive, the ride comfortable; it's a car that doesn't entice you to attack corners, but the all-wheel drive handles them competently when you do.

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dewey

And, I wouldn't rule out Smart just yet

Sorry Tagman I will have to disagree with your above mentioned point. SMART has been a consistent financial loser every single year since it was introduced about a decade ago. And the losses keep accumulating.

Fit is smart
Yaris is smart
MINI is smart.
SMART is dumb dumb dumb.

houdini1

I keep hearing how rear wheel drive is superior when it comes to handing and performance.

Then I think back a few months ago when some British organization tested every car known to man thru a very tough slalom course. The winner and king of the hill...a souped up front wheel drive Honda Civic.

houdini1

Gotta agree with Dewey. Mercedes should very quickly rebadge the Smart as a Chrysler and throw it in as a "good will gesture" for the new Chrysler owners.

tagman

SMART has been a consistent financial loser every single year since it was introduced about a decade ago.

Yes, I know. I am aware that it's no success by ANY measurement. My only point is that I don't think it's terminal quite yet.

Just for fun I just showed a pic of one to my son, and he laughed and said it reminded him of Steve Martin's car (driven by the Inspector) in the Pink Panther movie. LOL. I guess that shows just how goofy the car really is.

Well... I read somewhere that there are a lot of pre-orders in place for the U.S. release that is coming soon. That's the only reason I'd like to see what happens before I pronounce it DOA.

BTW, I'm curious... what's your take on Scion? Successful or not successful?

TagMan

lexusguy

Then I think back a few months ago when some British organization tested every car known to man thru a very tough slalom course. The winner and king of the hill...a souped up front wheel drive Honda Civic.

Slalom speeds and subjective handling "feel" are very different. There are some FWD cars capable of fantastic slalom speeds, like the Acura TL for example. On an actual road or track though, it has no chance of competing with a 335i or G35.

RWD has the fewest performance drawbacks of any type of drive. Thats why the greatest sports cars of all time were always and will continue to always be RWD.

brightness04

GM had two distinct periods of brand/division increases. The first period was in the 1920's, under Alfred P. Sloan. Almost all the traiditonal GM brands: Chevy, Buick, Cadillac, Pontiac and (now departed) Oldsmobile, came from that era. The multiplicity of brands enable Sloan to differentiate the market place and target specific consumers as GM market share grew rapidly, enabling the company to overtake Ford, which had 80+% of the market place with Model T before Sloan came along. What Sloan did was the exact antithesis of Model T, which had been a monolithic product that Henry Ford famously termed "available in any color the customer wants so long as it is black." Sloan brought in consumer choice and differentiation, and consumers flocked to GM in droves. The second period of brand/division increase came in the 1980's and 90's, as hopeless attempts to regain lost market shares; those brands included Saturn, Saab and Hummer.

If we really want to look for parallels in today's market place, what Toyota has been doing with Lexus and Scion is similar to what GM did in the 1920's; whereas what MB has been doing with Maybach, Smart and until 48hrs ago Chrysler is similar to GM did in the 1980's and 90's. The parallels are actually quite striking: Toyota has been gradually moving out of its own Model-T era of Camry's and Corollas since the late 1980's . . . whereas MB has been desperately trying to maintain market share despite its high cost basis just like GM was doing in the 1980's and 90's with its new brand acquisisitons.

brightness04

FWD cars have won quite a few road races against RWD cars, especially when the road surface was wet. AWD cars would be winning almost all races nowadays if they were not banned due to the "unfair advantages" in most races since the late 1980's.

brightness04

BTW, I'm curious... what's your take on Scion? Successful or not successful?

Scion brand has proved itself to be a great success. Selling 150k+ Yaris and Corolla (that's what Scions essentially are) a year at marked up full sticker is no mean feat. Compared to the miserable story of "smart," Toyota made two critical decisions right:

1. Use existing Toyota dealerhsips to sell Scion, so there isn't a costly dealer network to set up;

2. Use existing platforms like Yaris (xA and old xB) and Corolla (tC and new xB) to make the cars; stuff a Camry engine in there when performance is called for, a la tC. Reskinning is cheap compared to platform and drive train engineering. It also allows supply management such as limiting total output to 150k units a year to maintain "chicness" without running into severe economy of scale issue.

IMHO, not far from now, books will be written on how Scion succeeded and "smart" failed. The only way for "smart" to move in the US after the first couple years' novelty wears off, IMHO, is giving out a free "smart" for every S-class or GL purchase :-) It's a decent golf cart . . . may have some potential in the day rental fleet in tourist towns like Key West.

houdini1

In the test I am referring to the Civic trounced BMW and all others. It was an oval track a couple of miles long with twists and turns, not just a hundred yards of cones, etc.

I agree that a rear wheel drive car "feels" better. When objectively measured I'm just not sure that it actually performs better. After all, the Civic got around the track in the best time.

In another recent test one of the new diesels felt faster, etc. but when objectively measured it was slower.

bristol2

They could include the Smart in the S-class's truck. Maybe glove box...

The only place that a Smart makes sense is a place with super high gas prices, high congestion and no readily available parking (it really does fit nose-in without being too long, it'll go in a motorcycle spot).
That qualifies maybe SF and NY.
I've never heard of anything that could get enough volume based on being sold in 2 cities.

tagman

what Toyota has been doing with Lexus and Scion is similar to what GM did in the 1920's

Thank you for the well-written reinforcements to my initial suggestion that Toyota's route had similarities to GM's. Finally, you agree with something I posted!

TagMan

tagman

In the test I am referring to the Civic trounced BMW and all others. It was an oval track a couple of miles long with twists and turns, not just a hundred yards of cones, etc.

I agree that a rear wheel drive car "feels" better. When objectively measured I'm just not sure that it actually performs better. After all, the Civic got around the track in the best time.

In another recent test one of the new diesels felt faster, etc. but when objectively measured it was slower.

houdini - I like this post! Your point is well-presented, except that I believe at the ultimate level (pro racing), rear-wheel drive is still the better performer.

TagMan

houdini1

Well, I can't argue with that logic.

So instead I'll just take some of you on a trip down automotive memory lane and see how many of you remember these once common words which you seldom hear any more.

1. Curb feelers

2. Fender skirts

3. Switch key

4. Dimmer switch

5. Suicide knob

6. Continental kit

7. Corinthian leather

8. Turtle hull

9. Fluid drive

Got any others? Maybe some will make a come back!!

brightness04

I'm sure that's what you meant. Toyota is replaying the same cards that enabled GM's rise to the top, whereas MB is replying the same tricks that accompanied GM's fall from grace :-)