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Comments
I think if I ever move north, it will be back to NY (Long Island) for better or for worse.
As of this time, I plan to test a minimum of 6 vehicles in 2008. I'm sure that list will expand.
Two will be SUV's. I would be very surprised if I picked one of these as my final choice, though. I'm not an SUV guy although if Acura came out with a deluxe luxury sport edition with an Audi-like interior, I might be interested.
Synthetic wood makes "upscale" a joke.
It isn't just the fake wood though, although in this case that is a major sticking point with me. I think the price cap for the fake stuff is $35K, and even that is pushing it. For an SUV that can hit $50K, it's inexcusable.
The real problem is Acura has absolutely no idea what its doing when it comes to interiors. The aluminum in the TL is real, and its interior is still a cluttered, completely senseless mess. The worst part is the switch gear, which isn't even Jetta quality. All of the recent Acura interiors have this sort of "boombox" quality to them that they need to lose ASAP.
I kind of laughed when the MDX came out and dealers weren't moving off of MSRP. For fake wood, a confusing maze of console buttons and packages that force you to buy stuff you don't want or need to get one or two good things you do? I knew it wouldn't take long for invoice to be reached and that time is now! The leasing rates on this vehicle make it seem like this vehicle is really super special and in great demand. I must be missing something.
I still say Acura should have offered brushed aluminum-would have been neat as part of the MDX sport package.
I don't know. If they didn't change anything else, then you'd have these huge sheets of aluminum covering the dash, similar to the XKR. The Jag can pull it off, because it looks good with the leather dash. With plastic\vinyl though, I'm not so sure.
At least in the past, Acura's problem was Honda would design a decent, if not amazing interior, and Acura would go "throw some fake wood at it, and we'll be outta here by lunch."
The best example of this was the '98 Accord and '99 TL. The Accord definitely wasn't a Passat, but it was better than Camry and Altima. The Type-S TL with that black plastic wood was literally stomach churning. Acura is trying to do their own thing now, and so far it isn't working.
It's not just the interiors. For me that whole package thing is a turnoff. To get an upgraded stereo, I have to purchase nav.? To get an automatic liftgate, I have to purchase a rear entertainment system? Who's going to be watching Rocky 2? One of my grocery bags? :mad:
Forget the grocery bags imagine how bad it must be for the rear seated passenger to be watching Rocky 2 or worst of all Rocky Bolboa. :sick:
My BIG question is what is there to like about Acura?
Lousy interiors
Fake wood
Lousy option packaging
FWD based platforms
All Acura platforms are based on significantly cheaper Hondas(at least that is not the same story for many Lexus and Infiniti models)
What about the upcoming NSX? Take a look at it and please dont cry if you still have nostalgic memories of the NSX from the early nineties. I know, I know it is a mule but still it is scary how similar it looks to a S2000.
link title
The 530d sounds exactly like my kind of car. I would have a 530d Touring instead of a 530xi in my garage if that was possible. Also I would like to drive to Gibraltar with only one tank full of gas if that was also possible
To be fair after all of this Acura bashing though, they are far from the only company that does this. A power rear sunshade on the Infiniti M still costs $9000.
Well, I suppose thats better than the old "no option packaging" policy.
I know, I know it is a mule but still it is scary how similar it looks to a S2000.
It is funny how that can happen when you put a S2000 body on a car. Kidding aside, it will be interesting to see if Acura and Lexus can present any challenge to Audi and Porsche.
TagMan
14mpg vs 17mpg is hardly splitting hairs. The difference in fuel consumption over a 12k mile year is greater than the difference between a 30mpg car vs. a 45mpg car. The author of that review got tripped up by the 1/x math, just like most people living under the mpg regime do.
Good point about the rear hatch opening into the rack. Fortunately, there are racks that can swing away or mount with extensions to avoid the possible rear deck injury if you are concerned. Otherwise just be careful.
However, a decent hitch typically mounts to the rear of the frame, not the bumper, thereby providing better strength and absolutely no injury to the bumper.
TagMan
If the LS600hL has twice the HP of the 730d, then it sure wastes a bunch of it!
TagMan
Yes, there is no doubt that the bottom line here is that the LS600hL is approx. almost 2 seconds faster to 60 mph, but has to burn almost twice as much fuel to do so.
And if we want even MORE power, and LESS mileage, there are a number of cars to oblige us.
So... nothing that doesn't make sense here. More power seems to equal worse mileage, as usual, and that includes the LS600hL as well as the others. If, however, you are willing to sacrifice about 2 seconds of acceleration, then the mileage can increase by a factor of nearly 2X in the case of the 760d. WOW! That's an amazing BMW!
And, of course, that wonderful Bimmer handling will out handle the Lexus LS600hL as well.
TagMan
The review of the 730d was from the UK which, incidentally, is where I am from. The mpg is therefore calculated using the Imperial gallon which, as you may or may not know, is larger than the US gallon, hence inflating the figures. Conversion to US mpg sees the figure drop to around 30mpg; even then to achieve that figure in combined driving he must of been trying very hard or sitting on the motorway with the tach stuck at 2000rpm.
From experience I have seen 530d return around 27-28 US mpg in combined driving (so says the trip computer averaged over 3yrs 40000miles) which has the same engine as the 730d but is a lighter car. It does not get much press in the papers, but diesels rarely achieve their stated mpg, are generally slow at the top end due to low hp, still smelly and noisy from the outside, and cost far more to service due to their turbos. Here in the UK people choose diesel mainly for lower company car tax.
The UK LS600h has been tuned more for economy; 0-62 in 6.3secs, 30.4 mpg and produces near identical CO2 (216g/km vs 219) to the 730d (but of course without all the other crap diesels still spew out). There is therefor a strong argument to be made for hybrids in one of the few countries that has ready access to both technologies.
I do not dislike modern diesels, in fact I am currently driving one, but feel there is little, if any improvement to be made to the technology. Hybrids meanwhile are still in their infancy and are already rivaling highly evolved diesel power. I am personlly waiting for the next generation of hybrids; better batteries will increase power, dramatically reduce fuel consumption and emissions, plus give some boot (trunk) space back, what is not to like? One thing is for sure, there is not one all conquering tech at the moment; do not raise your expectations for diesels too high, I fear you will only be disappointed.
p.s final food for thought; who makes the one of the cleanest, least polluting (as in all emissions, not just CO2) diesels on the UK market, and the only four banger to pass tough Euro 5 emissions regs? Yes thats right, diesel hating Lexus (hint maybe they are going after better things).
Oh btw I am only really interested in both diesel and hybrid as daily drivers. I cannot see anything in the near future replacing a high reving, powerful, throttle sensitive gasoline engine in an enthusiast's weekend/track day toy. I'm not called Petrol Head for nothing.
"From experience I have seen 530d return around 27-28 US mpg in combined driving (so says the trip computer averaged over 3yrs 40000miles)"
My figures are comparable to yours. Only just a little better. They are calculated from notes taken at every tank refilling since I bought the car 41 months and 51,574 miles ago. My 530d returns 30.6 mpg in combined driving (77% road and 33% town). The road average is 36.3 mpg and the town one is 20.3. (USA units; Dewey corrected me some time ago on mixing USA with Imperial units.)
"Oh btw I am only really interested in both diesel and hybrid as daily drivers. I cannot see anything in the near future replacing a high reving, powerful, throttle sensitive gasoline engine in an enthusiasts weekend/track day toy. I'm not called Petrol Head for nothing."
Agreed. As we say There is a better life—yet it is more expansive
Regards,
Jose
(Auf der anderen seite)
The rest of what you say I agree with. There is very little to like with Acura.
Thanks!
Super ancient? :confuse: Chrysler's current 3.5L V6 isn't even 10 years old yet. It was released in late '98 for the '99 model LH cars. And if you read the tech specs on it, there's really no need for them to update it. It was one of, if not the first naturally aspirated V6 engines producing 250+HP. And it's plenty smooth.
Supposedly there's an American version of Top Gear in the works, complete with Clarkson, Hammond, and May. That should be very interesting to watch, as American auto companies are certainly not accustomed to having their cars called "garbage". Our major automags have not had anything resembling a spine for quite some time.
In some ways it's just like some BMW'S, great to drive with a lousy interior. But, far better electronics.
I also feel like the ride quality is better than even the RX 350 as that thing needs a platform change/update like the people of Massachusetts need a sober Senator.
All just MO.
I have no surprise about Toyota/Lexus recognizing the merits of the diesel. Toyota's controlling purchase of Isuzu was largely due to gaining Isuzu's diesel know-how, which they have been well-known for.
As you stated, you are a gasoline fan, and so am I, as would not drive a diesel Porsche Carrera S... LOL. That said, however, when it comes to new alternatives, I like the progress made by hybrids, although I think they have another generation or two to go before become they become optimum, and I am obviously very excited about the newer generation of diesels... I think they will offer a great alternative as well. I often defend them against some posters around here, but I still do see the merits in many types of powertrain technology alternatives, not just diesel.
Anyway, thanks for making your reply to me. I appreciate it, and look forward to chatting with you from time to time.
TagMan
1. The 34.4mpg cited for 730d is a different gallon from the US gallon. It's the UK model spec, so it's an Imperial gallon, which is significantly more fuel than a US gallon.
2. The fuel mileage testing method are drasticly different. The UK spec cited 760Li is 20.8mpg! (once again Imperial gallon). Whereas the same drivers who produced 17mpg (US gallon) for LS600hL only turned up 14mpg for 760Li. There two thirds of your "nearly 2x" claim goes up in smokes :-)
3. 6.0 0-60 for LS600hL is the round-up of the slowest number out there, resulted from a pre-production car. We have later tests with much greater validity, all closer to 5 seconds instead of 6.
While I try to as precise as possible with my own use of numbers, now I see why some are skeptical of numbers :-)
BTW, since you stated "if you are willing to sacrifice about 2 seconds of acceleration, then the mileage can increase by a factor of nearly 2X . . . That's an amazing . . ." Well I guess sacrificing half a second moving from S600 to LS600hL, and increasing mileage by nearly 2x (21 vs. 12 mpg) in the process, must rank as 4 times as amazing! That's assuming the numbers meant what you thought they meant; in reality, since the fuel mileage like 1.3x instead 2x for 730d, the LS600hL is 12 times as amazing as 730d is (4 times from half second instead of two seconds slower, and 3 times on top of that from actually delivering nearly 100% more instead of merely 33% more).
Glad you agree that the LS600hL is more than amazing :-)
I've already addressed that difference in my post above, and it makes little difference in my view.
Glad you agree that the LS600hL is more than amazing
LOL. Those are your words that you have attempted to spin from your math. I understand your point, and I do, however, see the gains in fuel efficiency that the LS600hL offers. My criticism of those numbers has always been that I expected something more significant from the car, just for the same reasons that cyclone4 cancelled his purchase intentions for one of them... and he is a Lexus fan, so that should keep things in perspective.
I simply stated that I can justify a sacrifice in 0-60 times as being worth it if the fuel efficiency gain is nearly twice that of the conventional gas ICE.
TagMan
We all agree that there are at least a generation or two more improvement to come for hybrids before the technology hits a plateau. That key however is that even the current generation hybrids are already better than what the best diesels have to offer in Europe, that's before the latter put on some additional emission control devices that inevitably reduce performance further just to be legal this side of the pond.
The difference is quite quantifiable: UK spec puts 760Li at 20.8 gallon (Imperial), and the same magazine testers in the US wrote 14mpg (US). That's a whopping 2/3 difference in terms what they save over a car that consumes 10.5mpg.
730d does not deliver nearly twice the fuel savings of conventional gas ICE at all. In the UK spec, 730i (petrol) is 28mpg; the petrol 730i still delivers 10% more horsepower than the 760d. On the other hand, LS600hL at 21mpg (US) does deliver nearly twice the fuel efficiency as S600 at 12mpg, and sacrifcing only half a second in 0-60!
Those are your words that you have attempted to spin from your math
Nope. I only cite solid numbers and use logic. You stated that sacrificing 2 seconds in 0-60 to gain nearly twice the fuel mileage qualifies a car as amazing . . . well, LS600hL does better than that: it sacrifices only half a second, and gain nearly twice the fuel economy of an S600.
Yes! Having "suffered" through the drab interiors of 3 BMWs, I am well-prepared for that of the MDX. My wife thought the BMW wood in the 545i is plastic because it is so shiny! To this day I cannot convince her that it is real wood.
No offense, but if I ever audition folks to be my butler, anyone named "Drumminham" immediately gets placed in the top ten!
1. Distance is far greater. For instance, my commute is 140 miles per day at an average speed of 60mph. If I drive a hybrid for gas (petrol) savings, I am essentially driving a very heavy 4-banger (Prius) or very heavy 8cy (600h).
2. Urbanization. The U.S. has more population spread across more open country. In this situation you lose the benefit of the 0-20 mph using only electric and are back to the extra weight of the hybrid drive-train.
3. Auto culture. For better or worse, the U.S. is not as accepting of compromises in either space or utility than the Europeans or English (not the same thing
4. When petrol-head mentions the dirt and smell from diesel, that is a non-issue for future light diesel in the U.S. Tier 2 Bin 5 regs are tougher than any existing EU emissions regulations and mandate diesel at the same emissions level as petrol vehicles.
Obviously we can debate whether 'clean diesel' is a figment of the imagination or not for ever, this argument is only based on the regulations and promises of the auto-makers as they currently stand. I'm not trying to open that can of worms.
Obviously the whole debate moves with advances in battery technology, here's hoping we're all getting 50mpg (or what ever that is per 97.25 kilometers
What I am saying is that FROM MY VIEW, or IN MY OPINION, that difference doesn't change my view of the diesel having a LARGE advantage in fuel efficiency compared to the gas counterpart. I have already acknowledged the sacrifice regarding the 0-60 time.
So, there is nothing to dispute. It is my opinion that the sacrifice in 0-60 time is STILL well worth the mathematical difference that PH pointed out. I STILL think that 34.4 Imperial MPG is terrific mileage!!
TagMan
Just to make the math easier, let's consolidate the two conversion/mapping functions into one: if 20.8mpg in UK spec is equivalent to 14mpg by the reviewers, what's 34mpg in UK spec equivalent to by the reviwers' testing method:
14 / 20.8 * 34 = 22.88 mpg
Like I said, there goes two thirds of your supposed fuel savings. The numerical difference that you saw initially were largely the results of units and testing method differences.
Sacrificing nearly 50% power for one third improvement in mpg? Perhaps some people think it's worth it. Then to them, if they are at all logically consistent, LS600hL's 15% power sacrifice for nearly double the mpg over S600 is far superior.
Man, you crack me up! I'm not even doing any math... YOU are the one applying the math, as usual. I'm just expressing my opinion, as I've now posted three times. My opinion is that the fuel mileage of the 760d, expressed as PH indicated is still excellent, and represents a significant alternative to the gas variant, with the understanding that there is a sacrifice in the 0-60 times.
How much clearer than that can a person be? If you don't agree that the fuel mileage improvement offered by the diesel has merit, than that's fine. But I, for one, think that the 760d diesel sedan offers a fair blend of fuel economy with BMW handling, as indicated in the article.
I now have a greater insight into your obsession with math, and I'm OK with that, but people's likes and dislikes are not necessarily mathematical.
There comes a time when you need to stop being a robot. :P
TagMan
The 730d is a fine handling, big luxury car with plenty of torque and power that gets 28 mpg. He sees that as a good thing. End of story.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
IMHO, hybrids scale very well with vehicle size. The bigger the car the easier to hide the battery pack :-) It's when cars get cut to the bones that the cost and space of a battery pack would be hard to find a place. For what it's worth, modern oceanic cruiseships are all hybrids despite their marine diesel tradition (gasoline engine never had a chance on ocean liners because of the safety issue of evaporatives).
I have been trying to be objective and level-headed about evaluating 730d, but apparently to no avail. Almost every argument made in favor of 730d could be used in favor of 730i with the I6, or even an I4+hybrid developing a little over 200hp. How exciting would those alternatives be, really? The only amazing thing I'm seeing is how the same people who proclaimed the precious virtue of half a second 0-60 in the S600, which consumes nearly twice as much fuel as LS600hL while doing it, only a few weeks ago, can now turn around and proclaime the "amazing" virtue of a car that lags 2 full seconds or more in 0-60 while saving only one quarter to a third fuel.
The 730d is a fine handling, big luxury car with plenty of torque and power that gets 28 mpg. He sees that as a good thing. End of story.
Houdini to the rescue. Thanks, man...I owe you one.
If brightness wants to think the 760d is a lawnmower, than that's his business... just not mine.
TagMan
14 / 20.8 * 34 = 22.88 mpg
Where did you get 20.8 mpg from? Is that a combined mileage figure? The 14mpg figure is that not from city driving? If that is the case then that formula above is senseless.
That 34.4 gallon imperial figure was that not the actual figures achieved by the reviewers themselves? Read the first sentence of the article and they do boast about achieving 35 MPG with a 730d. Unless I am mistaken and have missed a post or figures it does appear that your ratio above translates an actual figure of 34mpg into a fictional figure of 22.8 mpg.
That 27.7 MPG(USA) for the LS is from highway driving which cannot be compared to a 30mpg(US) of combined driving. Again that comparison would be senseless.
But apparently the reviewers did accomplish at least 34.4 mpg(imperial). If that is not the case why are the reviewers boasting that they accomplished more than 35mpg(imperial)?
This math thing has gone WAY too far. Let's just re-write the sentence to mean this:
"IT'S amazing to be driving one of the latest crop of big diesels and see such terrific fuel economy".
That says enough without the constant nagging about the numbers.
TagMan
Your constant attempts to discredit the diesels are obvious. Many posters here do not share your biased view of them. In any case, they will arrive, they will be clean, and you will be eating your posts for years to come.
TagMan
As a life-long skier entailing often-times ridiculous snow-storm drives up I95, I91 & I89 into the mountains of Maine, New Hampster and Vermont, FWD has served me very well (without ever using snows. Ok, not the brightest idea, but so far so good). Serveral RWD friends have not been able to complete the journey as have I (no acccidents, their RWD could just not make it up the final hills to the house that FWD did not seem to have issues with.). Now, I'll grant that for all the weekend Autocrossers here, RWD may be preferable. But Honda/Acura does FWD better than anyone imo, and at 8/10ths (maybe 9/10ths?) I don't mind.
As for the "busy" center stack as posted by (I think) Lexusguy (evil wife has an RX 300), I find it stylish, simple and elegant. The arguments against this setup could sound very IDrive bashing-ish. Review the setup, learn it, live it... Having said that, I do find the RL and new MDX dashes to be a bit too "Transformer-ish."
Everyone has a right to their opinion, and their opinion is certainly correct for themselves. And I'm really just defending the TL here (and probably the same can be said for the TSX. Again, with the RL/MDX Acura begins to lose even me...). While a BMW 328 is a fine piece of work, to me the interior, from an aesthetic standpoint is not a happy looking place. Functional, sure. But a bit austere and cold. Which may turn many folks on...
Anywho, I enjoy this (well, all the threads that I haunt) discussion and look forward to aquiring one of the "Luxury Lounge" vehicles as soon as the aforementioned evil wife allows...!
'21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)