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Toyota has rolled out the 2010 Lexus LS 460 with a redesigned appearance, up-to-date telematics and electronics systems and a new optional Sport package for the rear-wheel-drive versions of the flagship sedans.
Now can it compete with the Audi's of the world?
Regards,
OW
The BMW 5 series these days also has that feeling. Its windshield is so sloped that it feels as if you are driving around in a tank.
Squashing roofs, raising waists, raking windshields may be fun for automotive designers but they are annoying for me as a driver.
European car manufacturers = GM
But, I would have to say we are now and Audi family.
Congrats on your new purchases. I'm quite pleased with my S6 after an LS400 and LS430, and my wife is likely to end up with a Q5 as well.
Few cars still look fresh both inside and out at the end of their production run. The D3 A8 is one of those few. It's behind in tech (as you would expect) compared to the S550 or the new 7, but given a choice of the 3, I think I would have to take the Audi. I'm very curious to see what they are able to deliver with the upcoming D4 car. Both the Mercedes and the BMW have far better interiors than their predecessors. The A8's interior is already one of the absolute best in the business, so I wonder where Audi will go from there.
I think it's probably safe to say at this point that until there's a new 3 series, the S4 is now the entry lux sport sedan.
This will shape up to be a terrific battle. It's an important size/price niche. The 3-Series has been BMW's bread and butter for a very long time,. and while I do believe BMW will win in terms of the sales numbers, the overall performance numbers will go to Audi for now. I have no doubt that BMW will not just stand by and willingly give up the crown they have worn for a very, very long time.
And, to be fair, it's not like the Audi spanks the 335i... but it does indeed edge it out. And, it sounds like it's more than just numbers on paper. I have the strong impression that the S4 offers the kind of driving dyamics that many of us on this forum absolutely love.
To some degree, it is fortunate from a marketing perspective that BMW has the M3 sedan... something to suggest that they are still the champs, but the mighty M3 doesn't have the Audi's AWD and it does have a price tag that takes these cars yet another notch higher to choke on.
TM
Actually, M3 sedan sales have been so dismal that the next M3 will not be offered with four doors, it will go back to being coupe and convertible only. Plans for an RS5 are definite, but nobody is sure at this point whether there will be another RS4. It's possible that the AMG C-class will be the only super entry lux sedan from Germany.
Audi and BMW have different approaches, and certainly neither car is a bad choice. Obviously if you want AWD, the Audi is the one to get. BMW doesn't take performance and AWD very seriously, as evidenced by the fact that all of the comparisons have been S4 vs. "the good version" of the 335i. If you're more interested in traditional rear drive handling, the BMW still makes sense.
I think the only thing that has changed is that the days of the 3 series simply dominating everything else in the field are over. The old 540i Sport also used to crush everything, and look what happened there.
Regards,
OW
Your source?
I've seen more M3 sedans on the road than coupes. I haven't seen a single convertible yet. From my perspective, the M3 sedan is getting along famously in the market. :confuse: That will be extremely disappointing to me if they abandon the sedan!
I wish I could tell you. I know I read somewhere that the M3 sedan was going to be killed off, but I cant find where. The sales numbers I was able to find show the coupe outselling the sedan more than 3-1.
Traded 2008 Lexus 350RX and ordered/picked up Q5 with Prestige Package.
Wife says, the best move she ever made. Loves the Q5.
Now, myself.......6 total Lexus cars since 2004.....1 - SC430, 1 300RX, 2 350RX and 1 LS430 and 1 LS460.
Took the 2007 LS460 and Saturday traded it in on a new 2009 A8L.
Living in NJ, just needed the all wheel drive (the LS was terrible, even with 4 snows). Love the tighter handling and better NAV system. The LS had a few extras, the A8 did not have and vice/versa.
But, I would have to say we are now and Audi family.
Oh..........I was originally on my way to test drive the S550 and never made it out of the Audi showroom
Hello, first of all thank you for the reply, cause no1 even said even said hello to me when I wrote a message sometime back
Congratulation on 2 new terrific cars and happy driving
You were on your way to test drive the s550, as tag mentinoned I am sure you'd like the s550 but any ways whats done is done
Did u never take a look at the new 7 series? Personally IMO it has the best interior on the market.
TM
Regards,
OW
Went to a local financial planner and he suggested preferred shares of AT&T but not sure that's the best route either. So here I sit dazed & confused with how to get the best return for this sudden windfall!
The Sandman :sick: :shades:
2023 Hyundai Kona Limited AWD (wife) / 2025 VW GTI (me) / 2019 Chevrolet Cruze Premier RS (daughter #1) / 2020 Hyundai Accent SE (daughter #2) / 2023 Subaru Impreza Base (son)
I would hate to have something I said to be taken in a manner that possibly could hurt you in a financial manner---therefore I want to warn you that Bonds of any nature can be a very risky thing....Just think about a municpal bond---for a moment---The two general types are General Obligation, and Revenue Bonds....The mark-up (commission) can be huge, and just think of the States and communities in the states that are in financial difficulties, and the artificially low interest rates that the U S government is promoting...
.I commend you for getting advice from a reputable financial planner---Please keep that up,and be very careful of any type of BOND
Can't wait to root for USGP next year!!!
Just wondering
Dan
But we really need to get back on topic here.
Thanks!!
Can't say I am. At this point I'm much more interested in digital than analog, which is why I'm reading a lot more TAS than Stereophile.
"The first Audi sold on these shores was the Audi Super 90 four-door. The small car went on sale in 1969 and was "ugly," says John Bulcroft, who headed Porsche and Audi marketing from 1971 to 1978. And the Super 90 didn't sell well.
"No one wanted it, but it was the basis for getting the franchise running," Bulcroft says.
A year later, Audi brought in the 100 sedan.
"Audi had some smaller cars that they were selling in Europe," Bulcroft says. "We decided the only car that would fit the U.S. market was the Audi 100, and at that time we needed to get something in here right away."
The mid-sized four-door competed with Detroit-made vehicles rather than those of Mercedes-Benz or BMW.
The 100 also gained credibility because it was sold in the same dealerships as Porsches, Bulcroft says. But he adds, "It was a tough sell because the car wasn't great-looking."
In 1973, the 100 was joined in the Audi lineup by the Fox compact, which was based on Volkswagen's Dasher.
"We were a cheap alternative to the Dasher," Bulcroft says.
The second generation of the 100 benefited from more contemporary styling, fwd, a five-cylinder engine and lightweight materials. The 100 was renamed the Audi 5000 when it went on sale in 1977.
Still a relatively unknown player in the market, Audi hired Doyle Dane Bernbach as its advertising agency -- using DDB's forward-thinking art director, Helmut Krone, to create a different image for the brand.
Krone decided to feature German engineers and engineering, with long, technology-oriented ad copy. One ad featured a female structural engineer and the tag line, "I pick the car and let my husband pick the color."
By the late 1970s, "Audi was selling more cars than BMW in the market," says Marc Trahan, director of aftersales and technical service and an Audi employee for 30 years. "We had just introduced the Audi 5000," Trahan says. But it was still "a bit like like 'Audi who?'
"We were still building our image. We had been in the market a little more than a decade. We were focusing on technology and product, and we were willing to take a different path."
"By 1985, Audi sales had reached 74,061 units. But in 1986, the company's world was turned upside down by a controversy that became known as "unintended acceleration."
The battle raged for years, and by 1991, Audi sales had slipped to 12,283.
The brand teetered. To disassociate the cars from the controversy, the Audi 5000 was renamed the Audi 100.
In 1994, then-Audi AG CEO Herbert Demel launched a comeback strategy that emphasized simplifying the product line. Later in the decade, Audi augmented the lineup.
The TT coupe and roadster debuted in 1999. With their unusual styling and sporty performance, they created new excitement for Audi.
By 2000, Audi's volume in the United States was about 80,000 cars. U.S. sales peaked at 93,506 units in 2007.
So far Audi has come through the sales downturn in better shape than most other manufacturers. Last year, the brand's sales slipped 6 percent to 87,760 in an overall market down 18 percent. Through September of this year, sales are off 10 percent in a market down 27 percent.
Audi AG CEO Rupert Stadler has set a sales target of 200,000 units in the United States by 2018.
De Nysschen says he's looking even further out. In 15 to 20 years, he says, Audi will have a 20 percent slice of the luxury market -- similar to what BMW and Lexus each has today."
Link
link
Ah, the Audi 5000 - better known within my family as "Hitler's revenge". If I hadn't owned one, I would never have guessed that so many things could go so terribly wrong with one car. You name the component - it either stopped working, fell off, leaked, caught fire or just emitted a foul odor. (And by today's standards, this was a pretty basic car - stick, with no power windows, seats, sunroof or mirrors.)
I'll say this for the car: it gave me a ton of comedic material that I've mined over the years to keep our dinner guests laughing. Even my grandson, who was born long after we got rid of the car, will say, "Gramps, tell me another story about the Hitler car".
To this day, I can't drive past an Audi showroom without wincing.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/19/world/asia/19hostage.html?_r=1&ref=todayspaper-
We've been asked by management to get back to cars here, so I'm afraid I really need to insist.
Thanks to everyone for your cooperation.
Hahaha. This week AN had several Audi stories, and one of them mentioned that awhile back Audi made a considerable effort to get its quality act together, which is now paying off. I doubt many potential customers remember the 5000, but I'm sure there are plenty who remember horrible A4 1.8Ts and A6 2.8s from the late '90s and into the early '00s. They probably lost most of those customers forever.
If they are serious about owning 20% of the luxury market in the US, they need to keep improving quality, and just as importantly, make sure customers are getting a good experience from their dealer. Their recent focus on making more Audi exclusive stores should help, as most VW stores aren't exactly loved, and you don't want your Audi service department constantly full of broken VWs.
I don't think Audi/Porsche dealers are a bad thing though. Just as it did when the brand first got its start, having a 911 in the showroom makes an A4 look good, and emphasizes the performance aspects of the Audi. It's not like having a Cobalt next to a Corvette.
I agree.
And...I don't like the way franchises can't allow another unrelated brand within the same facility. Years ago, in NorCal, our local Mercedes dealer also sold Porsche vehicles in the same facility. It was a nice combination at the time. Of course, it makes more sense to have Porsche in the same facility with Audi.
I wouldn't even mind the return of the old VW/Porsche/Audi dealerships. Those three marques always seemed to have harmony together.
TM
TM
I have to assume you mean in the same showroom. It's common here in Chaz to have different brands right next to each other (owned by the same guy/group) sharing a parking lot. I'm sure there's a line in the sand, but it's about 10 paces from one brand to the other & not much further between showrooms.
Our Audi dealer's facility is connected to his Acura one by an overhang/walkway, sharing a big parking lot. You have to drive through the Acura area to reach the Audi one. After driving through a sea of ugliness, every Audi looks brilliant in comparison.
Have you seen this new road test?
2010 Porsche 911 Turbo First Drive and Video
I know, I know it's been a very long time. There have been several noted changes with me, chief among them is...wait for it... I bought another Audi!
I sold my 335 and in it's place sits a new S4. I can't speak enough to how Audi has evolved this car over the previous one. And since my wife couldn't muster another second with her hard-riding-no-space having GLK, we also picked up a Q5. Probably the best small premium crossover on the road now, but I will admit we cross-shopped the XC60 and WOW, if Volvo keeps making them like that , they'll finally go mainstream.
I've finally fully retired from all private and govenmental duties and now will be able to converse with you guys a bit more.
Yes I do! The second dark wave for Audi, but just as they did with the '96 A4 and '00 TT, they resurected once more.
If they're serious about owning 20% of the luxury market in the US, they need to keep improving quality..."
Without a doubt, and that is why Audi will have this customer for the forseeable future. My '06 A8 W12 and '07 S8's were champs, requiring only routine service, one HID headlamp(W12 -thanx to Audi for making them DRL's too :mad: ), and passenger side mirror tightening(S8)
And I am very confident that my subsequent S4 will be just as great!
So what do you think? The S-Class in it's self is a worthy ride. But impacting my carbon foot print positively is even better.(I know it sould crazy coming from a guy who is getting rid of a 12/18 W12, but hey there is a first time for everything...)
Well here's a little knowledge: The S450h will be powered by MBZ venerable 3.5L V-6 mated to a new hybrid powertrain. It's output will be in the 300hp range and will have a hwy mpg to exceed 27mpg, according to MBZ.
It is the same basic S-Class sedan but with additional hardware. I'd imagine that the S450h can be optioned to the lugnuts like any S-Class, but I wouldn't hold out on an AMG model. Price targets are said to notch below that of an S550.
It has been a long time, and almost four years since we met over on the Audi board
I would definitely agree! I really miss our vigorous debates over the years. I am really glad to see you are still enjoying your A8. I seem to remember me telling you that you wouldn't regret it. My W12 is still drum tight, but it will be 5 years old in Feb. My wife still makes me "chauffuer" her around in it!
Yes, I am pursuant of the Benz. It is said to be a technological tour de force! We shall see!
Congrats on your new purchases and welcome back, hemi! From everything I've seen, the S4 rocks. It's priced like an A4 3.0T would be, and yet you still get the special S treatment rather than just a bigger engine. For those looking for an entry sport sedan with AWD, there simply is no other choice.
I was always curious why you went with the GLK originally. Other than its cheap price, I just don't see the appeal there. In addition to the hard ride and cramped space, it also has rather lousy handling, numb steering, and mediocre FE. Most of the comparison tests I've seen have placed it bottom of the pack.
The quality at Mercedes may be improving, but it seems to me like the products themselves are just treading water. The new C, the new E, and the GLK are barely average, and these are core products, not a niche like the SLK.
The fact that the XC60 is competitive at all is a big step up for Volvo, as until about 5 minutes ago it was hard to mention Volvo in the same breath with anything, other than maybe Saab and Acura. That said, I still think they have some significant work to do. The turbo engine in the XC60 and S80 is competitive power wise, but not refinement wise. There's a coarseness that's still there, and inefficiency that makes the cars a lot slower and thirstier than they should be.
Also, Volvo's electronics flat out suck. I don't need to have the world's best NAV/phone/audio interface, but I would like something that's at least functional. The Volvo system appears to have been designed by apes in the 1980s. It comes with this.
I wouldn't bet on it. The Benz is still relatively portly, about 4500 pounds when loaded. I am hoping MB uses their vast array technology to get it done. But it all comes down to cost.
But if Ford can get a $25k Fusion on the road with 41mpg, then for sure Benz can eek out more MPG.
I think Mercedes has the right idea with this car. Lexus could've beaten them to the punch by using the RX450h's powertrain in the LS, but instead they went after the V12s with another "performance hybrid". Didn't anyone learn anything after the Honda Accord hybrid disaster? Nobody wants a performance hybrid. The S450 hybrid makes sense because it's trying to be more efficient than the V8, not faster.
Still, I think what makes the most sense for this type of car is a diesel V6 or V8. On Top Gear they beat the A8 4.2TDi's 800 miles on a tank record with an XJ diesel, which they said can go some 1000 miles on one tank. Since a hybrid system is little more than useless dead weight on the highway, they will never be able to match that.
Thank Goodness, someone agrees with me. What is with the hype of the new E? Outside of the upcoming E63, I just don't see it! The car's proportions are all over the place as the rear doesn't complement the front, and vice versa. Although not a fan, it's nowhere near as sleek as the '03-'09. And the coupe... I don't care how many times MB smashes it through a pane of glass, it is a C-Class trying to wear it's big brother E's clothes. It doesn't move the needle...
The S4 on the other hand, Whew! The upgrades to quattro and engine management are very welcomed. Very impressed with the power but more impressed with the grip that manages it. No more of that nose-heaviness that plagued even the rowdy bad-boy RS4. It will have BMW engineers trying to come up with a Performance Pack as this S4 nicely splits the difference b'tween the 335 and M3. It beats the 335 in most subjective tests, even FE. Pricing is comparable, but Audi options will get you in trouble. Mine stickered @ 51k.
"Also, Volvo electronics flat out suck"
Shockingly, this is what made us leave it on the lot! I can't fathom holding my Starbucks and a 1993-era remote for the nav while twirling down I-95 at 80mph. How does a Lamborghini have better ergos than moms Volvo? And yes, the 3.2L has enough torque to keep up with most V-8's, but that's not why almost 100k people buy RX350's. It is because they don't want to hear the engine drone, no matter how fast it is. The seats were superb(though the Audi and GLK have mastered Volvo's supremacy on seat comfort), the ride/handling balance is striking, and build quality seemed great for a car of it's price, no doubt due to the stiffened S80-platform. But it's not a complete pkg. The Audi gives you the performance, luxury, and space that is expected. No wonder people are tossing the bigger Q7 for it...
Agreed, and this is why I can't understand why Audi, BMW, Benz, Jag, and others refuses to send our way. There is no engineering cost to be endured as the Audi, BMW, and MB diesels meet the Euro emission standards that are stricter still than ours. They can't involve any more maintenance than these high-zoot cars already command. And luxury buyers will by them because unless the read the badges, they won't know it's a diesel until it's time to fill'er up. The newest diesels idle just as quietly as their V8 brethern once warmed up.
No smoke. No clatter. No lagging performance(Test 730d did 0-62 in 6.7 secs). What's the deal?
I don't see it either. The fact that its getting handily beaten by BMW and Audi designs from 2004 and 2005 should have Mercedes worried - expect that the E always seems to sell no matter what. The E-class coupe is certainly the better looking of the two, even just the modern grille is a massive improvement over the sedan's tired and stuffy grille and hood ornament. Mercedes should really think about offering the coupe's grille on the sport version of the sedan, similar to the C-class. The E coupe also gets a proper shifter instead of the sedan's taxi cab arrangement, but that means the front passenger gets cup holders instead of an armrest.
And what's with the secondary seat controls under the right thigh? Didn't Infiniti abandon that setup because it was, um, terrible?
What I'm really looking forward to is the A7, I think its going to be brilliant. We're not getting the A5 Sportback, but I hope Audi has the smarts to bring the A7 here.
IMO, Audi is on top of its game, but other than Audi, what barometer do you come up with to make that kind of statement? I just disagree... and if Merc1 were here, I think he would also disagree with it. (Just thought I'd throw that in... LOL.)
Anyway, I'm not saying MBZ should be bragging in any huge way about these vehicles, and I definitely think they could be better, but they are certainly above average when I look at the current landscape out there. And please don't start putting Infiniti ahead of where it really is.
Hemi, welcome back! My advice? Get whatever you want... you are in a fortunate position to do that, so go for it.
TM
I'm guessing you don't inhabit the diesel forums here on Edmunds. CARB (California Air Resources Board) has been active in keeping North American requirements (mostly to do with NOx) just ahead of what's being done in Europe.
As a result, we don't get the wonderfully efficient diesels sold everywhere else in the world. Besides which, the generic EPA qualification requirements add a ton of money to each and every engine/transmission/rear-end combination sold in North America.
I've been wishing to buy an Audi A3 or BMW 3 series with a reasonably-sized diesel for the past eight years, ever since I rented a few of them on business trips in Germany (including trips over the Alps) back in '01. Well, it's eight years later and all we get over here (with the recent bumping up of CARB) is only a handful of diesels, few of them small and efficient. From what I've heard, VW can't keep their diesels in stock & they're putting a premium on them.
Then, to put a bow on it, the only diesel BMW is bringing over is the mongo 335 that develops more torque than any manual transmission can handle. Even in Europe this thing has to be acquired with an automatic. I will only drive a manual.
Please, please, please bring me a 1.9 - 3.0 litre diesel with a manual transmission. I'll buy it tomorrow. Sadly, I don't think it'll ever happen, and if it does it won't be the relatively simpler version sold in Europe.
Thank you, California. You may be going broke, but at least you're dragging the whole rest of the country down the toilet with you.