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Comments
MB seems to be doing slightly better lately after a disastrous quality performance over the last decade. At this point though I still don't think Mercedes vehicles are worth the potential risk involved. They gave up their maintenance program years ago, and the cars aren't that attractive, or luxurious, or nice to drive. Mercedes' CPO coverage is also pretty much the worst in the luxury industry, which is telling.
I think Audis like the Q5, S4, S6, etc are worth the potential risk involved because of their combination of performance and luxury which remains unavailable from Japan. Infiniti is getting close, but they aren't there yet.
Japan's only answer to my British Jaguar XK is the Biblically terrible Lexus SC430. No thanks. I'd rather walk than drive one of those.
From what I saw, not enough of a difference to take the risk of low reliability and having to waste time fuming at the dealership. People have caught up to German engineering and German engineering is failing to keep up with others.
I've always liked the look of Jaguars. They should bring back some of the really old ones but they still aren't practical for more than a few enthusiasts.
These days though, can you really tell a BMW from an Acura without looking at the logo? We are getting into a world of generics where the differences reside in the curve of a piece of leather or the placement of cupholders.
In that case, go with the reliability.
BMW's emphasis and priority now is efficiency dynamics not performance anymore.
Both of us having a Prius in our garage know that should not be a bad thing BUT it could be very bad if we anticipate a future 2002tii.
Luckily I am not at a point in my life/career where a new BMW is an option, however an E46 330i w/ZHP looks like a great way to get around.
Makes me wonder why Toyota hyrbids per capita are sold at their highest levels in Calfornia ? The mountains in that State makes hybrid cars less than ideal.
There is a stronger environmental movement in California, and a general dislike of big oil (especially in Santa Barbara after the 60s oil spill that prompted the start of Earth Day), combined with stricter emissions controls, and the discounts that are available on them make them pretty attractive.
That said, I agree with your assessment as I have had the particularly unfortunate experience of piloting a Prius over hwy 17 to Santa Cruz where the car could not maintain speed of traffic on the steep curvy road, or the Conejo Grade going into Thousand Oaks, where I was passed by the semis and RVs. I appreciate the sacrifices others make for their beliefs.
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Oh, how times have changed.
A funny thing happened to Toyota and its overlords on their way to world domination of the automobile business. They got greedy, pure and simple. They became obsessed with surpassing GM as the No. 1 global automobile manufacturer, and in doing so they took their eye off of the proverbial ball. While they added new factories at a dizzying rate in their quest for more capacity, their heretofore unimpeachable quality ratings slipped, and recalls mounted (another 3.8 million U.S. Toyota vehicles were recalled late Tuesday afternoon for driver's side floor mat entanglements with the pedals that could cause unintended acceleration, but in Toyota's defense, more on that in this week's "On The Table").
All of a sudden dealers that were used to being on cruise control while busily filling orders had to get back in the actual business of selling again, something they hadn’t had to do for the better part of a decade at least.
And the final blow? In the midst of a global recession Toyota’s mojo disappeared, leaving its formerly glowing image flat-broke and busted by the side of the road. So much so that even the squeaky green, holier-than-thou Prius couldn’t make up for the dramatic swoon in the company’s rapidly declining fortunes.
And the most amazing thing about all of this? It all happened in just the last 30 months.
Toyota now finds itself scrambling in an intense effort to extricate itself from this swirling maelstrom of mediocrity that has seemingly swallowed the company whole overnight.
Akio Toyoda, the 52-year-old grandson of the company’s founder, has taken over a company that suffered its first operating loss in 70 years for the fiscal year ending last March. His task is huge because he not only has to get Toyota refocused and reenergized, he has to decide what Toyota will be in the future.
Will it be the benevolent Jolly Green Giant of a car company that will spread its goodness around the world like the touchy-feely, Shiny Happy minions worshiping the sun in the TV spots for the Prius?
Or will it be the “back-to-basics” car company that returns to its roots and humbly goes about the business of restoring its reputation in the automotive world through hard work, diligence and attention to detail?
I don’t envy Mr. Toyoda, because the landscape has changed considerably for Toyota, especially here in the U.S. market. Yes, Chrysler is a non-entity and GM is still reeling from its bankruptcy hangover – despite its stellar product lineup – which should give Toyota a running start back to its leadership role here. But all of a sudden Ford is a serious player, complete with something Toyota used to take for granted, and that is big-time momentum.
Whereas before Toyota could just blithely count on delivering its usual gangbusters sales numbers in the U.S., now it’s a real battle, and Ford is very capable of giving Toyota all it can handle, and on several market segment fronts too.
But the real obstacle standing in the way of Toyota returning to its position of dominance?
Hyundai.
Rest of article
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TOKYO -- Toyota Motor Corp. President Akio Toyoda said his money-losing automaker is “grasping for salvation” as it struggles to return to profit.
The world's largest car company was once targeting annual sales of 10 million vehicles but now expects sales of 7.3 million this year, down from 8.97 million in 2008, Toyoda said at a news conference here today.
Toyoda, grandson of the automaker's founder, said Toyota is on the brink of “capitulation to irrelevance or death” as he prepares for a second-straight year of substantial financial and unit-sale decreases.
Citing the five stages of corporate decline outlined by Jim Collins, author of How the Mighty Fall, the Toyota chief warned that his company has slumped to stage four.
“We are grasping for salvation,” Toyoda said, adding that the company has already spiraled through the first three stages: Hubris born of success, undisciplined pursuit of more and denial of risk and peril.
“Toyota has become too big and distant from its customers,” the chief executive said.
In the United States, Toyota's sales fell 13 percent in September from a year earlier as the market suffered a sharp letdown after the government-funded cash-for-clunkers program ran out. Total U.S. sales tumbled 23 percent. Toyota is down 28 percent for the year.
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Top 20 Vehicles for September 2009:
Ford F – Series – 33,877
Toyota Camry – 25,745
Honda Accord – 20,826
Toyota Corolla / Matrix – 20,741
Chevrolet Silverado PU – 19,401
Honda Civic – 16,093
Honda CR-V – 14,554
Dodge Ram PU – 13,452
Chevrolet Impala – 13,047
Nissan Altima – 12,149
Toyota Prius – 10,984
Ford Fusion – 10,834
Chevrolet Malibu – 10,479
Toyota RAV4 – 10,398
Volkswagen Jetta – 9,568
Ford Focus – 9,182
Ford Escape – 8,692
Lexus RX – 8,228
Pontiac G6 – 8,097
Chevrolet Camaro – 7,961
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Efficiency dynamics? My X3 recently achieved 9.0-10 mpg in city driving. It gets premium fuel.
No gold stars for that performance.
TM
This is exactly why I stopped reading the Autoextremist awhile back. Once the company began to really go down in flames, Mr. "tell it like it is" (a former GM ad man) couldn't bear to see his beloved GM in such dire straits and began rah-rahing for poor old GM - "it's not really their fault, its the fault of the American people for abandoning such a great company." Any ounce of credibility Pete had left was lost in this pathetic display, and he's still doing it.
Porsche has kept its image well: unreliable but distinctive enough to merit the headaches. The problem with all the Europeans though is that the others are catching up to the image and soon there will be image + reliability and then it will be a replay of the American auto industry of 30 years ago.
I was talking to a car salesman and he thought that reputations for cars persisted 30 years after the actual car. He noted Volvo's reputation for safety finally becoming a non issue and Ford's reputation for building a good car finally on the upswing. He sells Lexi (Lexuses?) but had gone car shopping for his son and was really impressed with a new Ford....can't remember which model.
I don't know about his 30 year theory but Americans are keeping their cars 7-9 years these days partially due to the recession but also due to having better built cars. So the sales experience of today is still ongoing a decade later and the memory will persist years after that.
Even a single lousy car and a single lousy car buying experience will be a factor in buying new cars especially as people who have incredibly bad experiences (raise hand) will continue to talk about them for years and years. It really doesn't pay for a manufacturer to ignore irate customers.
Porsche sales are doing well...must be our tax dollars pumping up those Wall Street bonuses.
Yes... My previous Porsche Boxster was a fantastic car... I had it for 7 years and had only one unscheduled service issue. I also got a great resale price for it. Service department was great, and overall it was a terrific ownership experience.
And my purchase certainly wasn't subsidized by taxpayers or any Wall Street bonus.
TM
Go Dodgers!
TM
The world Series match of the eons would be the Red Sox against the Dodgers. I bet Manny gets booed out Boston is this is the match-up. I think this meeting has a decent chance of coming to fruition.
You've summed it up nicely. These vehicles have always appeared to me to be a lifestyle statement, unless they're mostly driven in a flat city, in which case they might actually make sense. This assumes the energy expended making and disposing of the batteries can be ignored -- some are more willing to do so than others.
Phoenix is a flat city, as is Toronto. I see lots of them while commuting. When ripping through the mountains of Colorado, not so much.
This I can completely understand. The much touted extra roominess of the new A4/5 rear seat dimensions may be true vs the older models, but in both cases, no one of average size could ride behind me in any comfort whatsoever.
Frankly, I'll be happy if they just get there. They've been struggling at the tail end of the season.
TM
I like the Cardinals. I thoroughly enjoyed watching the way they beat Detroit in the 2006 World Series... and I'm sure they would love to get another crack at Boston after what happened in the '04 Series.
TM
Blame the customer is alive and well there and among BimmerBotHeads.
TM
You've said that you bought the X3 because you were pleased with your previous BMW, a 5-series. I've had a similarly favorable experience with a 3-series sedan, but that wouldn't lead me to buy an X3. Instead, I'd buy pretty much the same car that I have now: a 3 (probably the 328i) with RWD (that's what BMW does best) & a stick (never an automatic). In short, I'd choose a car that plays to BMW's historic strengths.
Admittedly, I'm biased - I don't particularly like SUVs - but if I had to buy one, I'd shop Japanese or American brands. (I also wouldn't spend much more than $30K on one. After all, SUVs are appliances. If you gave me $45K & told me to buy an X3 with it, I'd spend $25K on a RAV4 & the rest on stereo speakers & a long weekend in Vegas with someone else's wife.) The Germans don't understand & probably don't like SUVs. So why buy a German SUV? Sorry, but I just don't get it.
I think it should be mentioned that the Mercedes GL is a terrific German SUV... of course, that's if you must have an SUV... and it certainly requires a chunk of change. You might win it in Vegas, but you'd need to take a break from the other guy's wife. :surprise:
In addition, the also-German Audi Q5 seems to be getting positive feedback, although I haven't checked it out yet.
If I was to buy a small non-hybrid SUV, I'd seriously consider the Japanese Honda CR-V. After that, the RAV4, Infiniti's EX (although the back seat is tight), and also the VW Tiguan, yet another German SUV.
TM
However, I do agree that it's not fair to lump all Euro cars into one for bashing.
I guess that I just don't see the point of spending that kind of money on something as inherently boring as an SUV. Over the weekend, my wife & I went out to dinner with friends in their new '10 Subaru Outback. I was impressed - this is a smooth, competent, spacious (I was riding in the back seat, & I could easily cross my legs) & comfortable vehicle that does all of the SUV stuff well - & it set my friends back $30K. Why spend more than that? Remember we're talking about SUVs here - not about coupes or sedans.
At Vegas is your friend's wife good at blackjack?
I mean let's face it there are many forum members here who dont like American cars. Or Korean cars. Or God-forbid even Japanese cars.
So what?
But here's one individual who thinks German cars suck and lo and behold this person's opinion is totally out of whack! :confuse:
I know someone who bought a Hyundai Pony in the 80s and still today he says he hates all Korean cars. Do I have a debate with this person? Ofcourse not . Everyone's entitled to their opinion since such opionions are mainly based on subjective preferences.
Politically correct and balanced views on German cars or Japanese cars or even Russian AutaVaz cars on this forum would be as ridiculous as something out of the Monty Python show.
Is BlackJack really what you're asking about? Wasn't it jimbres that said he'd go to Vegas w/ somebody else's wife?
A sedan doesn't work for me which should be pretty obvious as I did not buy one of the many nice sedans out there. I do not like the Rav-4 as I really dislike the spare tire and don't like it much better in the sport edition that does not have it.
Getting back to the X3, since it is not an SUV it shouldn't drive as badly as an SUV. It does not go off-roading, in fact the dealer said DO NOT GO OFF ROADING WITH THE X3 so it isn't an appliance but an alternative to a station wagon or minivan.
If you want some more fun in driving and a bit of luxury then the Volvo Station Wagon's aren't going to do it, if you want more cargo space then the Q5 isn't going to do it and that chunky monstrosity of a MB isn't even worth thinking about. I looked at the Toyota Venza I think it is but that one was said to have mismatched door panels...too new and too risky. That leaves exactly two cars the Lexus RX and the two BMWs.
So that was my thinking. Obviously I never imagined (judging by reviews - big mistake) that BMW would make a car that could not drive properly or had such serious glitches in something so basic as its automatic transmission. I DID NOT KNOW BEFORE I BOUGHT THE *** that BMW had been having problem after problem with its 2007 GM6 AT.
I also didn't realize until after I understood about the GM6 AT that other BMWs were having transmission problems (noreverse.org) as well. Too late to do me any good.
I did not know because, why would I? I only found the complaints after I began having problems with the X3. If I had known, I would not have stepped foot in a BMW dealership, I would have settled on the Lexus.
I love the blame the customer ethos. It makes car buying just that much more precarious, unpleasant and avoidable. It is also what drove Detroit into the mess it is today. Obviously it is always the customer's fault for buying a bad car. It is obviously the customer who did not do the DD or take a weekend test drive. It is obviously the customer who is supposed to clam up so that future customers can deal with lack of information and guidance.
Nothing doing.
Right now, there is no good solution to this mess as the dealership can find the problem one day and cannot find it the next. Intermittent problems are fun like that.
I see more discussion about the color of leather or the position of the AUX port or the reliability of the cup holders than I do about the enjoyment of driving.
Maybe that is where the car companies are sending all of us: to the $25,000 utilitarian and generic car. As I said, I look longingly at Corolla ads. I can buy 2.5 Corollas for the price of the :lemon: BMW X3 and not spend all this time trying to figure out what is wrong with it and how to fix it.
Get in and drive is all anyone needs. That means bye-bye BMW, Audi, Mercedes, etc. Lexus becomes Toyota as it is in other countries and Infiniti just disappears.
If the higher end car companies can't make a competent premium car then why bother?
My suggestion remains the same as before. There is plenty of information out there about the X3. Even a company like BMW can screw up, and they did. I'm sure there are more than a few owners of reliable 911s who bought an early Cayenne and were dismayed to learn first hand about the atrocious reliability. A car is obviously a very significant purchase, and it's always a good idea to do as much research as possible.
Certainly I would've been a lot more wary about the S6 if there was post after post about terrible throttle and transmission programming. Indeed, because my local Audi shop didn't have an S6 to test, I drove to Riverside Audi in Jersey to test a few of theirs. Why would you have known? Well you would've known if you had done the research. Caveat Emptor.
Now that you've got the car, contact BMW North America, and see if some kind of solution can be worked out. If that doesn't go anywhere, consider using the lemon law, or just get rid of it. Or you can put up with it.
Apparently you did almost all of your research after driving your new X3 for the first 500 miles and not before. You're too late. Get rid of the lemon NOW! Because apparently your misery on your 500 miles is far worse than the misery I had on my BMW 335 for the first 25000 miles.
When I had my recurring problems with my BMW 335i I did no research whatsoever while owning my BMW 335i. When S*** hits the fan it's too late. No new research will make me feel better since there are no lemon laws where I live.
Whose to blame for buying the crappy car you and I have. BMW ofcourse! But our complaints are drowned out by the sea of praise that is heard among BMW owners all over the world. "Blame the customer"--yup you and I are responsible since we chose what we chose. Tough luck! Except from now on I will never ever buy a BMW for myself and my wife again. That's the only power I have over BMW.
Lexusguy laid out your options quite clearly on his last post except his option of keeping it is not an option at all since it is creating such misery for you.
Whatever you do dont keep it. Financially you wont be worse off if you buy a more humble new auto or a used luxury auto. Both choices cannot be worse than what you have now. If you do decide to keep your BMW X3 then that in itself is proof that you could not find a better alternative
Then why shouldn't the customer turn around and blame the manfacturer, the dealer and the people promoting the heck out of this :lemon: including the botheads?
As I believe I have said time and again, I did not find about the GM6 AT transmission problems in the 2007-08 X3's until I began a specific search about the jerkiness of the acceleration and the terrible ride of the specific X3 which I had bought. It is the luck of the Google draw. Besides which, reading the hundreds of posts on the subject the problem was said to have been fixed in all but a handful of post 2007 cars. The ride problem was said to have been fixed in the 2005s and the 2007s....obviously fixing is a term subject to review.
Now that I have found out about these very specific problems, people have a problem with discussing it in depth but that is how Google search works. A few entries in a low traffic forum do not make it to the top of the Google search or into the search at all.
Caveat emptor? Caveat BMW which is my point entirely.
This isn't a bad cup of coffee, this is a major purchase and it should receive major review but it doesn't. The professional reviewers who receive a loaded car from a hyped up marketing department are looking for things that are quite different from what a typical consumer would look for. Slalom speeds? Off roading prowess? What? Where, then, would one go to find out real world experiences without actually buying the car?
I know....for the 2009 BMW X3 I have real world experience.
--------------- Loving Google. 'BMW sucks' gets to this which is still too mild and nonspecific about the issues that I have. Google is a popularity engine not a relevance engine...not the same thing.
* Firm ride
* Suspect build quality (is this the worst car that BMW makes?)
* Very dull styling
* What is it for? Practicality is suspect and off roading is not great.
-------------- So the upshot is, if I have a specific car that is a one off, that is perfectly ok and grounds to blame the customer for being stupid enough to buy the one off? I still have problems or 'features' that no one else I have found to date has.
People who had the original GM6 AT problem in 2007 were also treated with disdain. Obviously BMW would never make a car that could not accelerate when the gas pedal was pressed....the customer must have pressed the brake or hit nothing but air. Obviously BMW would never make a car that had jerky acceleration or a concussive, nausea-inducing ride...the customer must not know how to drive or must be imagining things.
Blame the customer. Without us the car industry doesn't exist which is maybe where it should be going....buy a cheapo Chinese car at Walmart for $5K and be done with it.
Agreed. It stinks that he is having all these problems, but it's not like the internet was just invented. He could have done plenty of research beforehand and known about all the issues he's now facing. Sounds like it was either an impulse buy or a high pressure sale. I'm leaning toward the former since he's not slinging hash at the salesman.
So, pp2009pp, please deal w/ it and move on. No one had a gun to your back or a loved one strapped to a bomb when you signed the sales contract. And if they did, that's legally considered "under duress" and you are not bound to it. You could just walk away from it scott free. And it also kind of serves you right. Either buy a car/wagon/minivan or buy a truck/SUV. These so-called "cross over" vehicles are compromised vehicles in every way imaginable. They're not as spacious or capable as a real SUV and aren't as maneuverable or fuel efficient as a car. They take the worst of both worlds and bring them together.
:lemon:
It serves me right that BMW makes a car that drives like this?
Since when did I ever do anything to BMW - or to you for that matter - that makes me to blame? My former car was a BMW. I have given BMW nothing but BUSINESS for years. So my reward from BMW was the X3 that drives like this?
So your position is that all buyers of SAVs or crossovers should receive a lousy car. At least I know where you stand.
------
Try this one on for size for DD on the internet. I just experienced another 'feature' of my car the other day. Going up a short but relatively steep hill at low speed - residential area. Pressed the gas pedal gently but no acceleration as would be expected. Pressed harder on the gas pedal but still no acceleration. The tachometer jumped back and forth between 2K and 3K and then there was a hard acceleration.
Try another one on for size for DD on the internet. I am getting 10 mpg in city driving.
Try another one on for size for DD on the internet. The engine brake is so peculiar that in Drive I have to accelerate while going downhill. In Sport Drive it is even worse.
Try another one on for size for DD on the internet. At low speeds on regular roads the bounciness of the cabin is so bad that it actually makes me sea sick.
Now where in the world on the internet would I have found out about this when doing all this great research on the net about this car?
Enough empathy with your problem we sincerely had; and we have repeatedly told you so.
Enough patience we have had to keep listening to your complain around the clock.
Yes, admittedly you are not guilty of anything. BMW and its dealer are to be blamed. Understood.
You have posted that in this and a number of other Edmunds threads again and again. Yet, WE are not the cause of your problem. :sick:
If you wish cause trouble to BMW because of your lemon, try acting against BMW, not against us.
Please, stop whining in a vicious circle; lets move ahead.
Believe me or not, still with my sympathy,
Jose
Yes! And it serves me right too.
Move on and sell your :lemon:
All the more reason to quit the whining, quit blaming us (who have tried to help you), and take a mature position regarding your unfortunate situation.
Please consider the recommendations that LG, Dewey, Tayl0rd, 2001gs430, Carnaught, Jimbres, Jose, and I, and others have all offered you. If I missed someone who offered advice I really apologize... but the point is that a major number of forum members here have all given you sound feedback. There is now nothing more for us to do. The ball is in your court.
Time to move forward... as Jose so eloquently posted. Good luck!
TM
Well put, Jose.
I couldn't agree more.
First people want to say that I failed to do enough DD on the net.
Now people say I shouldn't try to find out more information on the net.
Please choose one of the above since they are completely contradictory. If people who owned the problematic 2007 and 2008s were still active on the X3 threads, I might have found out about the issues and avoided the problem altogether.
No... you misunderstood Jose, who posted, "Enough is enough!"
TM
First people want to say that I failed to do enough DD on the net.
Yes people are correct in saying that you did not do enough reserach on the net before getting the X3. Do you think you did enough research?
Now people say I shouldn't try to find out more information on the net.
And now people are saying that we heard your problem many times and we had provided you with all the infromation that we know of about the X3. So now our question is what more do you want from us with regards to the X3?
So again where is this contadiction ?
In an attempt to change the record....
During recent trip to MD, had a chance to really work out Pop's '69 Jag. No power anything. Can't remember the last time my right foot had such a workout just braking. A steering wheel so thin & fragile I was afraid I'd break it. Gas pedal & brake pedal way too close together for my right foot. My sightline driving was straight into the top frame of the windshield. I had to hunch down to see through the glass, or prop myself up to look over it.
All these quibbles & I just couldn't stop grinning during the open air drive. It's a lot of work to drive this car, but the payoff is tremendous. What sweet music emanating from the tailpipes!
How muuuuch I'm envious of your chance. Even if you are in need of pairs of new shoes & gloves after that old-fashioned driving. I hope your eyes were well shielded :shades: .
Regards,
Jose
Edit: I thought the bumpers of these E Jag were not legal in the USA at the time when the car was created. Am I wrong or has she been imported after, or else?