Dewey, I'd never put a Lexus or a BMW on the same position, but to me a lemon is a lemon, regardless of brand they're all rotten lemons :P
Ramblings, my version (and hopefully shorter) :P : I personally think Infiniti is getting distinctive style points with the G and FX, the curvy grille comes to mind. I agree though, that while the upcoming M looks nice, it's not as distinct as other models in Infiniti lineup. Like I said earlier, I see too much Nissan Maxima on the sheetmetal. Acura = hideous. Lexus is starting to make good designs, though still lacking in character IMO.
While the big mouth grille thing is appealing to my eyes (except on A3 which looks weird IMO), yes I kinda miss the previous A4. It's simple yet classy lines are nowhere to be found in any car now. MB is getting better with reliability, but I think that the switch from sleek curvy looks to the boxy stuff they design today is a major drawback. The same goes to new BMWs and their food tray sized kidneys. :sick:
Americans started to get it right with 300C and previous gen CTS-STS, but totally "F"d it up with plain idiotic models like Sebring ("Sebring, makes a Chinese knockoff looks good in comparison"). Or Cadillac and it's obession over huuuggee grilles, I find the new CTS looking hideous with that grille (although it looks good on Escalade). And they're still not over the arrogance trying to scam us into buying their "quality" product. Yeah right. One more thing I totally dislike about domestic designs: they're still obsessed with chrome blings.. gross...
Yes there is a certain beauty about a car that is solely designed for function and not merely to impress people with its sexy curves and its oversized monstrous grille like many European cars today (hint: Audi today unlike Audi from yesteryears).
I didn't like the single frame grille at first, but I've gotten so accustomed to it that when I saw an early current gen A8 recently with the old style grille, I was struck by how outdated and old it looked. Audi has definitely made it work. On the other hand, BMW's latest supersized kidneys just look like pig snouts. The 5 GT looks like a crosseyed pig.
... On the other hand, BMW's latest supersized kidneys just look like pig snouts. ...
I'm glad somebody else has finally noticed that! That is exactly what I thought of when that grille was unveiled. :sick: I'm sure it'll just take some getting used to, but for now I prefer the Dig-Dug grille on my 550i. :shades: And as shameful as it is to admit, I'm actually starting to get used to the new TL. Once you get over the audaciousness of it and step back to look at it, you can sort of appreciate some of the design elements. :surprise:
Interesting, most of the cars you guys just talked about were around when I was still in my parents' dreams, LOL.
Anyways, Cadillac made a big boom with 1st gen CTS, hate the current's face, but like the interior. New Equinox looks ok (kill the big eyes please), but I'm not pleased with SRX as the Equinox parts are glaringly obvious inside out. To me both XLR and STS have the same problems: they're about as reliable as perforated tires :P and priced way too high (although the latter applies to CTS as well). I like your comment: "depending on how you interpret executed" and that Tercel's open view thing... ROFLMAO.. :P
I want to see Fiat pulling FirePower into production too, but honestly don't want to see ME making it into production. It'll cost too much money while they can use it to redesign the 300 and make a better Sebring. Last, I don't think Fiat wants ME to become reality since it'll compete with Fiat's own Ferrari and Maserati.
Count me in on BMW's grille, pig snout... the most accurate description so far. :sick:
But, no, I'm not getting used to AcuraShield. In fact, it looks even worse now to me. Only TSX is still worth looking, and still the shield leaves me cold (albeit not as bland as my TSX)...
... Last, I don't think Fiat wants ME to become reality since it'll compete with Fiat's own Ferrari and Maserati.
There lies the negative of FIAT buying Chrysler. It is hoping against hope that either the Firepower! or the ME Four-Twelve will ever see the light of day. Both those cars would be direct stabs at what both Maseratti and Ferrari have. Not to mention there's already some stink in the air as to the future of the Viper under FIAT's control. Yet another American icon might well go quietly into the night.
"Notice I am not saying that there are no other cars more reliable than German cars or that BMWs cannot be lemons or bad designed cars. For instance, X3 has no credit over here."
Where is over here?
BMWs become pricey to fix as they get older. See noreverse.org for the transmission problems. I don't know if a transmission should fail at 70,000 miles and have to be replaced.
Any manufacturer can have the occasional lemon or poorly designed car, I agree with you on that. The proof of an excellent manufacturer is the response (or lack thereof) once problems have been found out.
Blaming the customer is what GM did 30 years ago leading to its long, slow decline into bankruptcy and they did it with much cheaper cars.
"Notice I am not saying that there are no other cars more reliable than German cars or that BMWs cannot be lemons or bad designed cars. For instance, X3 has no credit over here."
Where is over here?
BMWs become pricey to fix as they get older. See noreverse.org for the transmission problems. I don't know if a transmission should fail at 70,000 miles and have to be replaced.
Any manufacturer can have the occasional lemon or poorly designed car, I agree with you on that. The proof of an excellent manufacturer is the response (or lack thereof) once problems have been found out.
Blaming the customer is what GM did 30 years ago leading to its long, slow decline into bankruptcy and they did it with much cheaper cars.
My last car was also a BMW. My next car will not be for obvious reasons.
Infiniti seems to have the best performers of the Japanese, w/better reliability v the Germans, I guess, but still fall a tad short. A good compromise for the wallet strapped, but without such limitations, why sell yourself short? Life is short after all.
I think Infiniti just needs more time to evolve. How many decades of 5 series have there been? The 2011 M is really only Infiniti's second try to compete with it. The very unloved first gen M45 really doesn't count, as it wasn't even the same car.
The current M needs better styling, a better transmission, a better interior, more power, and improved NVAH. We'll see about the last one, but the rest have already been corrected. Depending on how the next gen A6 turns out, an M56x could very well be my next car. I still like the XF, but the horrible reliability has really turned me off. I'm glad I went with the S6 over the XF SC.
I guess I thought that cars returned under lemon laws would find a home in the junk yard....silly me.
During the dark days at Mercedes, I remember seeing literally a dozen or so lemon law buyback SLs on Ebay at any given time. Huge discounts of course, but the savings is probably cold comfort when the top breaks halfway open for the umpteenth time.
I am looking longingly at ads for Corollas....it has come to that.
Speaking of lemon laws, have you thought about going that route with your X3? At least here in PA, I'm pretty sure that the rule is if a dealer cannot fix the same problem by the third try, you can attempt to get the manufacturer to buy it back. The terrible throttle response would probably count as an unfixable problem.
How different is the German car experience these days? Is it really a difference that makes a difference or is it mostly just a romanticized ideal that doesn't really exist beyond the fancy badge.
I think the difference is smaller than it used to be, particularly as some of the German models have gotten excessively fat and thus lost some of their advantage in handling and particularly steering feel. In most cases though, its still there.
The IS and G are much more competitive with Audi and BMW than they ever have been (and they are better cars than the lousy C class), but the S4 and the 335i are still the best. The IS-F is a nice effort, other than the cartoony styling, but it still cant really take down the M3, and will get crushed by whatever the RS division has up their sleeve for the B8 A4/A5.
Japan's answer to Germany in the mid-lux segment this time has been pretty weak. The RL and GS stink, and while the M definitely made a splash and won a lot of comparison tests, outside of the magazine world it doesn't really measure up to the A6 3.0T or the 535i. As I've said, the upcoming M looks like a game changer that will put Infiniti right up there at the top.
Lexus made a lot of noise about the LS460, but speaking as a former LS owner, to me it seems basically just a warmed over LS430. It's nice enough and I'm sure owners are pleased with it... but I just don't think there's anything special about it. Even the new XJ which I don't even like has that feeling to it that you get with a Maser QP, or an A8, S-class, but you just don't get with an LS.
Japan currently has no answer for the CLS or the upcoming A7 and they have no real GT car like the 6, SL, Maserati GT, or Jag XK. They also don't compete with the Z4, TT, and SLK.
And I SOOO have my fingers crossed that FIAT or whoever it was that bought Chrysler will follow through with machines such as the Firepower! and the ME Four-Twelve. If the latter isn't an aspirational supercar, I don't know what is!
I wouldn't count on much of anything from Chrysler, let alone supercars. Anything left alive by Daimler was subsequently killed by Cerberus. Chrysler was supposed to be a strip-and-flip, and that's how Cerberus ran the operation. Product plans before Fiat got there were essentially el-zilcho. This company is going down, sooner or later.
Not to mention there's already some stink in the air as to the future of the Viper under FIAT's control. Yet another American icon might well go quietly into the night.
Wasn't Chrsyler desperately trying to dump the Viper group for chump change not too long ago, and nobody wanted it? Viper would've been dead, no matter what.
I don't think the Viper was ever on anybody's chopping block. The Chrysler brand itself was what was wanted to be gotten rid of. Daimler bought Chrysler mainly to get its hands on the Jeep brand, but Chrysler wasn't having it. It was all or nothing. But as far as Viper goes, it's no coincidence that the new SLR Roadster or whatever is more than a little bit reminiscent of the Viper and Firepower! concept. Not to mention Mercedes now has all those (alpha)63 AMG vehicles. Highly reverse- and re-engineered HEMIs, I bet. And we also now have better built, more rugged ML/GL SUVs and the Jeep Liberty-ish GLK. So Chrysler's child brands definitely served Mercedes well. So why can't FIAT revisit the idea of the Firepower! and ME Four-Twelve? They'd be wise to do so, IMO. They have plenty of other rubbish in their lineup they could scrub off to make room for Firepower! and ME Four-Twelve production.
But I think I slid off on a tangent there... :confuse:
Visit my CarSpace page User: jlbl Email: private Member Since: January 13, 2005 Last Login: September 30, 2009 Name: Jose Location: Bilbao, Biscay, Spain
Badly beaten. Recovery may last even more than in other European countries. Moreover, Opel (now owned by Austrian-Canadian components producer Magna) has cut more than 2,000 jobs in his factory in Saragossa (Aragon, Spain). This is way more than expected. :sick:
I don't think the Viper was ever on anybody's chopping block.
Oh, it was. "The Detroit Bureau reports today that in a bankruptcy court document, CEO Robert Nardelli stated that Chrysler LLC offered for sale the Detroit Viper factory (and presumably the tooling and intellectual property to go along with it) for a mere $10 million dollars. The factory has been up for sale since this past August, but sadly there was “no purchaser interest.”
Not to mention Mercedes now has all those (alpha)63 AMG vehicles. Highly reverse- and re-engineered HEMIs, I bet.
I certainly hope you're not being serious here. As to the Firepower and ME-412, about the dumbest thing Fiat could do is build them. There is no market for either car. Assuming they could get the Firepower built for less than $80,000, it would have to compete against the Corvette Z06 and the GT-R. Two legendary nameplates with a car no one has ever heard of, from a brand no one wants anything to do with. The Chrysler 6.1L and the Maserati 4.7L engines aren't powerful enough, and something boutique would price the car right out of the market.
The ME-412 makes even less sense. Assuming it could be built at all, it would cost Pagani Zonda money. For a Chrysler. Yeah, that'll happen.
Magna - I am assuming it is the same company- produced my HOJ BMW X3. It is losing the next generation to the North Carolinians.
:lemon: :lemon: :lemon: :lemon: :lemon:
The US is going through some very bad times as well. Michigan's unemployment rate is in near-depression level territory and the West Coast is starting to catch up.
Back in the saddle after another 1-yr sojourn.... Many of the great posters are still around - LG, Tag, even dewey (once every moonlight), etc... That is gratifying to see. You guys are just so die-hard
My current interest dove tails with Dewey's last post - to wit - that as a hybrid owner (own an '08 TCH), I long for something more fun and more pleasing to drive. My biggest issues are my two kids heading off to College in the next couple of years putting a damper in any car purchase decision... but once they head off to College, I am getting rid of our B6 A4 and getting a Z4, and maybe get rid of my E60 530i for an Audi A6 or S6. I think that Audi has the best cars on the road today, save for some BMWs (335i, M3/5, 535i). I am no fan of the crappy Q6 or Q7 or whatever they named these ugly fat toady SUVs.... Me no likey any Infiniti or Lexus no more... been there done that...
LG, since you have an S6, any pointers to how much better it is over my current E60 530i? I'd like your informed comments on Audi v BMW in the mid-lux class...
Thanks for the report, and I wish you a good trip with all the seafood everyone will enjoy......We have been eating alot of shrimp as this is the time of year..:)
I haven`t gone by the dealer yet, as it looks like there is no where to park....and The Audi dealer looks like he doesn`t really have any inventory.....Although I have doubts about the diesel now, the higher 550 e has appeal.....Tony
By some fluke I ran across the LaMans (a version of it in Georgia USA) last weekend, and was surprised how addictive it became....I thought of yourself enjoying the 'formula car racing....anyway just watching the drivers of the cars, with the tv camera bolted on somewhere, I was amazed at how fast they were...I mean` blistering fast`, and the Audi diesel would just blow past everything like they were standing still......It would be fun to go to a race like that if it wern`t too far from home Tony
The TTS got a big sister Q5 this afternoon as my pretty Mrs. took advantage of year-end deals and exited the MKX lease a few months early. White with black interior and loaded up with Prestige pkg., rear side bags and rear seat dual DVDs. She had wanted to wait for the 2010 with the ventilated seats, but this '09 represented about a $13K savings overall.
Not my preferred class of vehicles by a very long shot, but driving it will be less sedating than the Lincoln, which has performed admirably, BTW.
Obviously this family believes Audi has it nailed, and nailed proper! :shades:
Well, looookie here... it's OAC!... back from the dead.
Well, let me be the first to welcome you back! Things have been so civil around here for so long, it's been a real blessing. When I was asking about some of the MIAs recently, I thought of you, but figured you were gone for good. Gosh, if we hear from Designman and Merc, I'd have to swear the planets are aligned somehow! But then again, if the planets were actually aligned, Len and Charlie would tell us about that. :P
If you are going to make a significant investment in a car, then I totally agree that Audi represents one of the best, if not the best choice at this time.
Are you going to keep that Camry Hybrid? As I recall now, you posted here about that car around the time you purchased it... isn't that right?, or is my memory failing again?
Anyway, terrific to hear from you, and this time stick around!
LG, since you have an S6, any pointers to how much better it is over my current E60 530i? I'd like your informed comments on Audi v BMW in the mid-lux class...
Coming from a 530i with 255hp, the A6 3.0T with 300hp and 310ft.lbs from 2500rpm may be enough, you may not need the S6. The 19" Sport package comes with RS6 wheels and looks great. The Sport package is a must on the A6, otherwise it drives like an Accord. The 3.0T is also capable mileage in the 20s, which you'll never get with the S6. The price difference between the 3.0T Sport and S6 is around $20K, so you'll want to decide whether the extra power is really worth it.
I much prefer the C6 A6 in general to the E60 5. The car is much better looking, and the interior is much less business like. Quality of the switchgear is much higher. The 2010 A6 also gets the latest generation MMI system, which blows the old iDrive in the 5 out of the water.
General Motors Co. just announced minutes ago that it would shut down its Saturn division after an agreement to sell it to Penske Automotive Group Inc. fell apart. :sick:
Obviously this family believes Audi has it nailed, and nailed proper!
Congrats on the new purchase! Please give me your full impressions on the Q5, as we haven't made the move yet. I definitely think that the Q5 is the best of the current compact lux-ute crew. BMW will have a response soon, but I have to wonder how many repeat buyers they will get.
Tag, you have a memory like a Metusellah... deep and everlasting. Yes, I still have the CamHy but its tiresome to drive. The E60 and the Audi are light years better but my daughter and her mum (my dear wife) won;t let me near any of these cars... I have been banished to the worst car in the home fleet :sick: Sucks for me, despite me buying all 3 cars and all 3 cars bearing my single name of ownership... hehehehehe... marriage and kids will do that to ya...
LG, I hear you about the A6 3.0T (3.0T???) i didn't realize they added a Turbo to that engine. Is it the same 3.0 on the B5 A4 3.0 model years or is this a near engine? I'd guess same engine just spruced up with the blowers, right!!
And yes, I will be here awhile. I didn't go away I just took a break.
Tag, did you say it has been "civil" around here??? Well, about time we juice it up... hehehehehe...
Speaking of floor mats, the set in the '06 330 xi were held tight by anchored plastic at each corner. I never remember them ever moving during driving.
And to the post regarding BMW quality, one visit for the air bag sensor cost them over 1,000 miles on a loaner 330i since the part needed to be sent from Germany. I kept it for a week because I was out of town on business. Great timing, don't you think? :shades:
I'd say the service was exceptional afaic and the car was worry free and outstanding in the rough weather. Overall, I was extremely satisfied and impressed with the time I had with that car.
You sound just like me in the last paragraph re: the US manufacturers!
Looks like I could be the pioneer for you with my CR-V. My daughter gets her permit in 2 weeks!!!!!!
Not long after that, she gets the CR-V. What a great vehicle. Does everything you would expect with near perfection. Rough Weather? Just what Charlie would order!
LG, I hear you about the A6 3.0T (3.0T???) i didn't realize they added a Turbo to that engine. Is it the same 3.0 on the B5 A4 3.0 model years or is this a near engine? I'd guess same engine just spruced up with the blowers, right!!
Actually, there's only one blower, and its not a turbo. Despite the "T" name, the new 3.0TFSI (the FSI is Audi's direct injection system) engine is supercharged. Audi says they did not call it 3.0S to avoid confusion with the S models. It's also not related to the old 3.0 V6. To create the old 2.7T, Audi shortened the stroke of the 2.8 V6 and added twin turbos. This time they shortened the stroke of the 3.2 FSI V6, and fitted an Eaton 4-vane roots-style supercharger between the cylinder banks.
The 3.0T engine is also used in the new S4 (making 333hp) and in the S5 Cabrio. Apparently Audi has decided to stick with a V8 in the S5 coupe.
Actually, there's only one blower, and its not a turbo. Despite the "T" name, the new 3.0TFSI (the FSI is Audi's direct injection system) engine is supercharged. Audi says they did not call it 3.0S to avoid confusion with the S models. It's also not related to the old 3.0 V6
Thanks.... Audis are just so beautiful.... I will certainly keep my eyes peeled on the A6, of course it helps to see it take top honors at the C&R comparo against heavyweights like the 535i, E350, M45, and XJ. I used to be very lukewarm on Audis and German cars years ago... no longer. I am a total convert now. I don't care about reliability that much any longer.... I am at a stage in my life now where the driving pleasure is most important. Besides these cars are all reliable enough...
For the record, I've had no issues with my S6. According to JD Power, Audi is doing pretty well. The latest VDS measures cars from '06, which is when Audi really started to get their reliability act together. As a brand, they did better than BMW and much better than Mercedes, and were not that far behind Honda. They probably wont be able to catch Lexus and Infiniti near the top any time soon, but as you said, they are good enough.
I suspect as soon as XF reports are factored in, Jag is going to take a long fall from their tie for 1st. Too bad.
Looked at the Q5 but to me an Audi is an iffy proposition and I did not like the Q5....claustrophobic design. It was cheaper than the X3 and a more interesting drive than the RX.
Chose the BMW (stab thigh with rusty fork, twist) because of the ride. The X3 is so bad that I am done with all the European imports until they can get rid of all the designers and engineers who might have been responsible for it.
The X3 is so bad that I am done with all the European imports until they can get rid of all the designers and engineers who might have been responsible for it.
I think everyone hear is sorry to hear about your X3, but suggesting that you are done with the entire European auto industry is just one big major over reaction, and an out of balance response to your situation. :confuse:
but suggesting that you are done with the entire European auto industry is just one big major over reaction
Remember Detroit in the last century? There is a generation of premium car buyers who will not buy Detroit anything ever regardless of how much they improve. Can this happen to the Europeans?
IMO it doesn't even take a personal experience with a specific car for people to write things off. I had Detroit cars that were actually quite good but the bad PR meant I haven't had a Detroit car in a very long time. I might consider some in the future but, in the meantime, they have lost a ton of business.
Once a car brand slips, the bad vibes stay with it for decades.
How different is the German car experience these days? Is it really a difference that makes a difference or is it mostly just a romanticized ideal that doesn't really exist beyond the fancy badge.
Well my experience is a little dated, but here is my opinion.
In my early post-college years I was poor, so I bought an '85 Jetta. It handled pretty well and was one of the nicer small, sportier sedans available.
When we needed reliable transportation with a bit of sportiness we bought a 1992 Accord (great car, by the way). Just a great mix of practical, sporty, and reliable.
When my means improved I splurged (for me) for a new 1998 Audi A4, 6-cyl, manual transmission.
When the kids got too big to ride in the back of the Audi, I opted for a 2005 Acura TL - trying to retain some sporty and luxury with more space and practicality.
My conclusions:
- The Audi was light years ahead of them all in driving pleasure. The shifting was like butter, the handling was fabulous, and it had the right mix of sportiness and luxury. But it was only of average reliability and expensive as hell to fix once the warranty went out. But I really MISS that car!
- The Acura is a transportation device. It looks nice, has been fabulously reliable, and has great power. It doesn't handle that well, it wallows in the curves, and although most people would say the interior is very nice, it is NOT like the European Audi in interior sumptuousness and certainly not in handling. But it is very comfortable and damn reliable. Just not nearly as much passion to drive.
- The '92 Accord was an amazingly capable car and I kind of miss that one too.
Funny that the car that inspired the least passion of the last 3 is the current '05 TL.
If you want reliable, buy Asian. If your tastes lean toward luxury, you can probably do well with Lexus. If you like sport/luxury, NOTHING beats the Europeans. You just need to be willing to tolerate some more glitches. But it can easily be worth it.
Since I'm in no mood these days to pay upwards of 50K for a luxury car, I keep looking for more economical mixtures of sport and luxury. I would actually consider the Mazda 3 on the low end. Or perhaps the A3. The previous model TSX was very nice but the new one is bloated.
But in my heart I keep lusting for a true European car. The differences are real, if those characteristics are important to you. They are obviously important to many of us.
Mr. oak, it is great to have you back here. My, how some car tastes change. You certainly have gone through a revolution in your car preferences. I am stubborn when it comes to these things. I still love Lexi and we own two of them. My wife drives the new RX450h and I have a 2008 LS460L. I love both but that does not mean that I hate Audi or Mercedes. What would be more shocking than your revolution in car preference would be for me to go with a European choice for my next car adventure .
So you came into the American Le Mans Series!!! Yeah, Peugeot and Audi diesels are doing very well in there, like in the rest of the World Series and in Le Mans itself.
The racing tracks which are closer to my place are Montmeló (Barcelona), Jarama (Madrid), Cheste (Valencia) and Valencia (Valencia main town). Jerez (Cadiz) takes a bit further away. Cheste and Jarama are most for hiring a session or taking lessons. As well, Cheste and Jerez (the origin of Sherry wine) are nowadays for motorbike races.
To see car races in Spain (F1), I have only gone to Jerez (years ago) and Montmeló (taking advantage of my daughter's living in Barcelona). It is an interesting atmosphere—though I'm not as much a fan as to go frequently. Out of Spain I went once to Spa-Francorchamps (Belgium) and Le Mans (just for a few hours). This was much time ago, in my French years. Oh, Youth, how quick you are left behind!
But in my heart I keep lusting for a true European car. The differences are real, if those characteristics are important to you. They are obviously important to many of us.
Have you driven an Infiniti G? I agree with your thoughts on the TL, but if you've never been behind the wheel of a G37, you may be surprised at how close it gets to the European experience. Like the TL its interior doesn't measure up to the current A4 or even a 3 series, but it makes an A4 2.0T very hard to justify for the same money.
There is a generation of premium car buyers who will not buy Detroit anything ever regardless of how much they improve. Can this happen to the Europeans?
No. Absolutely not. "Ain't gonna happen".
There will always be those that align themselves exclusively in the Japanese camp or the European camp for a while, but not an entire generation (and not the majority), and interestingly many of them ultimately either switch camps, or finally cross the lines entirely and no longer hold loyal to one or the other.
I personally have an interesting mix of American, Japanese, British and German. So, for me, it's more about the car, not where it came from.
Others here also have a mix, and even some here that have been loyal to one camp for a while have recently crossed the line and purchased cars from the other side.
So... I realize you have buyer's remorse regarding your X3, but there are plenty of European vehicles out there that are terrific, even including other models from BMW. Besides, the X3 is well-known to be a compromised vehicle, and it doesn't represent BMW or the European vehicles well at all... its replacement is coming soon, and will hopefully be improved. VW, Audi, Porsche, Mercedes, Jaguar, as well as the more exotic European marques all offer acceptable European alternatives to BMW if you are inclined to ban BMW from your future shopping list.
I must be frank with you and tell you that I think that it is silly, close-minded, over-reactive and self-depriving when you recently suggested that you are totally through with all the European vehicles because of an X3.
I realize you are relatively new to this forum, but if you stick around here, you will learn a lot about vehicles and real-life vehicle experiences that just might put your situation into a more balanced perspective. Open your mind, listen and learn, and realize knowledge is power... you could have been more aware of that X3 from LG's experience, just for example. And, you will also realize that there are some terrific vehicles from all shores, not just Japan.
I've been keeping an eye on this recently. There is a little sibling to this car that will likely appear first, but it's not the real thing like this could be. I don't want to say too much to spoil it, but I'll reveal this:
All electric... 536 HP, 738 lbs. torque, and 0-60 under 4 seconds.
As usual, TMC proves that Toyota and Lexus are from the same nest.
Here we see the Toyota version of the Lexus HS250h... or is it really the other way around? Is the HS250h a Lexus version of the Toyota? Well, either way... Probably a better value under the Toyota badge. Here's the info: link title
Comments
Dewey, I'd never put a Lexus or a BMW on the same position, but to me a lemon is a lemon, regardless of brand they're all rotten lemons :P
Ramblings, my version (and hopefully shorter) :P :
I personally think Infiniti is getting distinctive style points with the G and FX, the curvy grille comes to mind. I agree though, that while the upcoming M looks nice, it's not as distinct as other models in Infiniti lineup. Like I said earlier, I see too much Nissan Maxima on the sheetmetal. Acura = hideous. Lexus is starting to make good designs, though still lacking in character IMO.
While the big mouth grille thing is appealing to my eyes (except on A3 which looks weird IMO), yes I kinda miss the previous A4. It's simple yet classy lines are nowhere to be found in any car now. MB is getting better with reliability, but I think that the switch from sleek curvy looks to the boxy stuff they design today is a major drawback. The same goes to new BMWs and their food tray sized kidneys. :sick:
Americans started to get it right with 300C and previous gen CTS-STS, but totally "F"d it up with plain idiotic models like Sebring ("Sebring, makes a Chinese knockoff looks good in comparison"). Or Cadillac and it's obession over huuuggee grilles, I find the new CTS looking hideous with that grille (although it looks good on Escalade). And they're still not over the arrogance trying to scam us into buying their "quality" product. Yeah right.
One more thing I totally dislike about domestic designs: they're still obsessed with chrome blings.. gross...
I didn't like the single frame grille at first, but I've gotten so accustomed to it that when I saw an early current gen A8 recently with the old style grille, I was struck by how outdated and old it looked. Audi has definitely made it work. On the other hand, BMW's latest supersized kidneys just look like pig snouts. The 5 GT looks like a crosseyed pig.
I'm glad somebody else has finally noticed that! That is exactly what I thought of when that grille was unveiled. :sick: I'm sure it'll just take some getting used to, but for now I prefer the Dig-Dug grille on my 550i. :shades: And as shameful as it is to admit, I'm actually starting to get used to the new TL. Once you get over the audaciousness of it and step back to look at it, you can sort of appreciate some of the design elements. :surprise:
Anyways, Cadillac made a big boom with 1st gen CTS, hate the current's face, but like the interior. New Equinox looks ok (kill the big eyes please), but I'm not pleased with SRX as the Equinox parts are glaringly obvious inside out. To me both XLR and STS have the same problems: they're about as reliable as perforated tires :P and priced way too high (although the latter applies to CTS as well).
I like your comment: "depending on how you interpret executed" and that Tercel's open view thing... ROFLMAO.. :P
I want to see Fiat pulling FirePower into production too, but honestly don't want to see ME making it into production. It'll cost too much money while they can use it to redesign the 300 and make a better Sebring. Last, I don't think Fiat wants ME to become reality since it'll compete with Fiat's own Ferrari and Maserati.
But, no, I'm not getting used to AcuraShield. In fact, it looks even worse now to me. Only TSX is still worth looking, and still the shield leaves me cold (albeit not as bland as my TSX)...
There lies the negative of FIAT buying Chrysler. It is hoping against hope that either the Firepower! or the ME Four-Twelve will ever see the light of day. Both those cars would be direct stabs at what both Maseratti and Ferrari have. Not to mention there's already some stink in the air as to the future of the Viper under FIAT's control. Yet another American icon might well go quietly into the night.
I agree. The S5 Cabrio makes the IS350 C look like a clown car.
Where is over here?
BMWs become pricey to fix as they get older. See noreverse.org for the transmission problems. I don't know if a transmission should fail at 70,000 miles and have to be replaced.
Any manufacturer can have the occasional lemon or poorly designed car, I agree with you on that. The proof of an excellent manufacturer is the response (or lack thereof) once problems have been found out.
Blaming the customer is what GM did 30 years ago leading to its long, slow decline into bankruptcy and they did it with much cheaper cars.
Where is over here?
BMWs become pricey to fix as they get older. See noreverse.org for the transmission problems. I don't know if a transmission should fail at 70,000 miles and have to be replaced.
Any manufacturer can have the occasional lemon or poorly designed car, I agree with you on that. The proof of an excellent manufacturer is the response (or lack thereof) once problems have been found out.
Blaming the customer is what GM did 30 years ago leading to its long, slow decline into bankruptcy and they did it with much cheaper cars.
My last car was also a BMW. My next car will not be for obvious reasons.
I think Infiniti just needs more time to evolve. How many decades of 5 series have there been? The 2011 M is really only Infiniti's second try to compete with it. The very unloved first gen M45 really doesn't count, as it wasn't even the same car.
The current M needs better styling, a better transmission, a better interior, more power, and improved NVAH. We'll see about the last one, but the rest have already been corrected. Depending on how the next gen A6 turns out, an M56x could very well be my next car. I still like the XF, but the horrible reliability has really turned me off. I'm glad I went with the S6 over the XF SC.
During the dark days at Mercedes, I remember seeing literally a dozen or so lemon law buyback SLs on Ebay at any given time. Huge discounts of course, but the savings is probably cold comfort when the top breaks halfway open for the umpteenth time.
I am looking longingly at ads for Corollas....it has come to that.
Speaking of lemon laws, have you thought about going that route with your X3? At least here in PA, I'm pretty sure that the rule is if a dealer cannot fix the same problem by the third try, you can attempt to get the manufacturer to buy it back. The terrible throttle response would probably count as an unfixable problem.
I think the difference is smaller than it used to be, particularly as some of the German models have gotten excessively fat and thus lost some of their advantage in handling and particularly steering feel. In most cases though, its still there.
The IS and G are much more competitive with Audi and BMW than they ever have been (and they are better cars than the lousy C class), but the S4 and the 335i are still the best. The IS-F is a nice effort, other than the cartoony styling, but it still cant really take down the M3, and will get crushed by whatever the RS division has up their sleeve for the B8 A4/A5.
Japan's answer to Germany in the mid-lux segment this time has been pretty weak. The RL and GS stink, and while the M definitely made a splash and won a lot of comparison tests, outside of the magazine world it doesn't really measure up to the A6 3.0T or the 535i. As I've said, the upcoming M looks like a game changer that will put Infiniti right up there at the top.
Lexus made a lot of noise about the LS460, but speaking as a former LS owner, to me it seems basically just a warmed over LS430. It's nice enough and I'm sure owners are pleased with it... but I just don't think there's anything special about it. Even the new XJ which I don't even like has that feeling to it that you get with a Maser QP, or an A8, S-class, but you just don't get with an LS.
Japan currently has no answer for the CLS or the upcoming A7 and they have no real GT car like the 6, SL, Maserati GT, or Jag XK. They also don't compete with the Z4, TT, and SLK.
I wouldn't count on much of anything from Chrysler, let alone supercars. Anything left alive by Daimler was subsequently killed by Cerberus. Chrysler was supposed to be a strip-and-flip, and that's how Cerberus ran the operation. Product plans before Fiat got there were essentially el-zilcho. This company is going down, sooner or later.
Wasn't Chrsyler desperately trying to dump the Viper group for chump change not too long ago, and nobody wanted it? Viper would've been dead, no matter what.
But I think I slid off on a tangent there... :confuse:
Ooops, I forgot it is on my badge.
Visit my CarSpace page
User: jlbl
Email: private
Member Since: January 13, 2005
Last Login: September 30, 2009
Name: Jose
Location: Bilbao, Biscay, Spain
Regards,
Jose
How is the economy over there these days?
Badly beaten. Recovery may last even more than in other European countries. Moreover, Opel (now owned by Austrian-Canadian components producer Magna) has cut more than 2,000 jobs in his factory in Saragossa (Aragon, Spain). This is way more than expected. :sick:
Regards,
Jose
Oh, it was. "The Detroit Bureau reports today that in a bankruptcy court document, CEO Robert Nardelli stated that Chrysler LLC offered for sale the Detroit Viper factory (and presumably the tooling and intellectual property to go along with it) for a mere $10 million dollars. The factory has been up for sale since this past August, but sadly there was “no purchaser interest.”
Not to mention Mercedes now has all those (alpha)63 AMG vehicles. Highly reverse- and re-engineered HEMIs, I bet.
I certainly hope you're not being serious here. As to the Firepower and ME-412, about the dumbest thing Fiat could do is build them. There is no market for either car. Assuming they could get the Firepower built for less than $80,000, it would have to compete against the Corvette Z06 and the GT-R. Two legendary nameplates with a car no one has ever heard of, from a brand no one wants anything to do with. The Chrysler 6.1L and the Maserati 4.7L engines aren't powerful enough, and something boutique would price the car right out of the market.
The ME-412 makes even less sense. Assuming it could be built at all, it would cost Pagani Zonda money. For a Chrysler. Yeah, that'll happen.
:lemon: :lemon: :lemon: :lemon: :lemon:
The US is going through some very bad times as well. Michigan's unemployment rate is in near-depression level territory and the West Coast is starting to catch up.
My current interest dove tails with Dewey's last post - to wit - that as a hybrid owner (own an '08 TCH), I long for something more fun and more pleasing to drive. My biggest issues are my two kids heading off to College in the next couple of years putting a damper in any car purchase decision... but once they head off to College, I am getting rid of our B6 A4 and getting a Z4, and maybe get rid of my E60 530i for an Audi A6 or S6. I think that Audi has the best cars on the road today, save for some BMWs (335i, M3/5, 535i). I am no fan of the crappy Q6 or Q7 or whatever they named these ugly fat toady SUVs.... Me no likey any Infiniti or Lexus no more... been there done that...
LG, since you have an S6, any pointers to how much better it is over my current E60 530i? I'd like your informed comments on Audi v BMW in the mid-lux class...
And I promise I'll stay around this time...
Thanks for the report, and I wish you a good trip with all the seafood everyone will enjoy......We have been eating alot of shrimp as this is the time of year..:)
I haven`t gone by the dealer yet, as it looks like there is no where to park....and The Audi dealer looks like he doesn`t really have any inventory.....Although I have doubts about the diesel now, the higher 550 e has appeal.....Tony
By some fluke I ran across the LaMans (a version of it in Georgia USA) last weekend, and was surprised how addictive it became....I thought of yourself enjoying the 'formula car racing....anyway just watching the drivers of the cars, with the tv camera bolted on somewhere, I was amazed at how fast they were...I mean` blistering fast`, and the Audi diesel would just blow past everything like they were standing still......It would be fun to go to a race like that if it wern`t too far from home Tony
The TTS got a big sister Q5 this afternoon as my pretty Mrs. took advantage of year-end deals and exited the MKX lease a few months early. White with black interior and loaded up with Prestige pkg., rear side bags and rear seat dual DVDs. She had wanted to wait for the 2010 with the ventilated seats, but this '09 represented about a $13K savings overall.
Not my preferred class of vehicles by a very long shot, but driving it will be less sedating than the Lincoln, which has performed admirably, BTW.
Obviously this family believes Audi has it nailed, and nailed proper!
:shades:
Well, let me be the first to welcome you back! Things have been so civil around here for so long, it's been a real blessing. When I was asking about some of the MIAs recently, I thought of you, but figured you were gone for good. Gosh, if we hear from Designman and Merc, I'd have to swear the planets are aligned somehow! But then again, if the planets were actually aligned, Len and Charlie would tell us about that. :P
If you are going to make a significant investment in a car, then I totally agree that Audi represents one of the best, if not the best choice at this time.
Are you going to keep that Camry Hybrid? As I recall now, you posted here about that car around the time you purchased it... isn't that right?, or is my memory failing again?
Anyway, terrific to hear from you, and this time stick around!
TM
Coming from a 530i with 255hp, the A6 3.0T with 300hp and 310ft.lbs from 2500rpm may be enough, you may not need the S6. The 19" Sport package comes with RS6 wheels and looks great. The Sport package is a must on the A6, otherwise it drives like an Accord. The 3.0T is also capable mileage in the 20s, which you'll never get with the S6. The price difference between the 3.0T Sport and S6 is around $20K, so you'll want to decide whether the extra power is really worth it.
I much prefer the C6 A6 in general to the E60 5. The car is much better looking, and the interior is much less business like. Quality of the switchgear is much higher. The 2010 A6 also gets the latest generation MMI system, which blows the old iDrive in the 5 out of the water.
Just thought it noteworthy.
TM
Obviously this family believes Audi has it nailed, and nailed proper!
Congrats on the new purchase! Please give me your full impressions on the Q5, as we haven't made the move yet. I definitely think that the Q5 is the best of the current compact lux-ute crew. BMW will have a response soon, but I have to wonder how many repeat buyers they will get.
Tag, you have a memory like a Metusellah... deep and everlasting. Yes, I still have the CamHy but its tiresome to drive. The E60 and the Audi are light years better but my daughter and her mum (my dear wife) won;t let me near any of these cars... I have been banished to the worst car in the home fleet :sick: Sucks for me, despite me buying all 3 cars and all 3 cars bearing my single name of ownership... hehehehehe... marriage and kids will do that to ya...
LG, I hear you about the A6 3.0T (3.0T???) i didn't realize they added a Turbo to that engine. Is it the same 3.0 on the B5 A4 3.0 model years or is this a near engine? I'd guess same engine just spruced up with the blowers, right!!
And yes, I will be here awhile. I didn't go away I just took a break.
Tag, did you say it has been "civil" around here??? Well, about time we juice it up... hehehehehe...
j/k of course...
And to the post regarding BMW quality, one visit for the air bag sensor cost them over 1,000 miles on a loaner 330i since the part needed to be sent from Germany. I kept it for a week because I was out of town on business. Great timing, don't you think? :shades:
I'd say the service was exceptional afaic and the car was worry free and outstanding in the rough weather. Overall, I was extremely satisfied and impressed with the time I had with that car.
Regards,
OW
Looks like I could be the pioneer for you with my CR-V. My daughter gets her permit in 2 weeks!!!!!!
Not long after that, she gets the CR-V. What a great vehicle. Does everything you would expect with near perfection. Rough Weather? Just what Charlie would order!
Regards,
OW
Sp few and far between, I'm afraid!
Regards,
OW
The grille!
Regards,
OW
Regards,
OW
Regards,
OW
Actually, there's only one blower, and its not a turbo. Despite the "T" name, the new 3.0TFSI (the FSI is Audi's direct injection system) engine is supercharged. Audi says they did not call it 3.0S to avoid confusion with the S models. It's also not related to the old 3.0 V6. To create the old 2.7T, Audi shortened the stroke of the 2.8 V6 and added twin turbos. This time they shortened the stroke of the 3.2 FSI V6, and fitted an Eaton 4-vane roots-style supercharger between the cylinder banks.
The 3.0T engine is also used in the new S4 (making 333hp) and in the S5 Cabrio. Apparently Audi has decided to stick with a V8 in the S5 coupe.
Thanks.... Audis are just so beautiful.... I will certainly keep my eyes peeled on the A6, of course it helps to see it take top honors at the C&R comparo against heavyweights like the 535i, E350, M45, and XJ. I used to be very lukewarm on Audis and German cars years ago... no longer. I am a total convert now. I don't care about reliability that much any longer.... I am at a stage in my life now where the driving pleasure is most important. Besides these cars are all reliable enough...
For the record, I've had no issues with my S6. According to JD Power, Audi is doing pretty well. The latest VDS measures cars from '06, which is when Audi really started to get their reliability act together. As a brand, they did better than BMW and much better than Mercedes, and were not that far behind Honda. They probably wont be able to catch Lexus and Infiniti near the top any time soon, but as you said, they are good enough.
I suspect as soon as XF reports are factored in, Jag is going to take a long fall from their tie for 1st. Too bad.
Looked at the Q5 but to me an Audi is an iffy proposition and I did not like the Q5....claustrophobic design. It was cheaper than the X3 and a more interesting drive than the RX.
Chose the BMW (stab thigh with rusty fork, twist) because of the ride. The X3 is so bad that I am done with all the European imports until they can get rid of all the designers and engineers who might have been responsible for it.
I think everyone hear is sorry to hear about your X3, but suggesting that you are done with the entire European auto industry is just one big major over reaction, and an out of balance response to your situation. :confuse:
C'mon now, get it together for goodness sakes.
TM
Remember Detroit in the last century? There is a generation of premium car buyers who will not buy Detroit anything ever regardless of how much they improve. Can this happen to the Europeans?
IMO it doesn't even take a personal experience with a specific car for people to write things off. I had Detroit cars that were actually quite good but the bad PR meant I haven't had a Detroit car in a very long time. I might consider some in the future but, in the meantime, they have lost a ton of business.
Once a car brand slips, the bad vibes stay with it for decades.
Besides, what else European am I going to buy?
Well my experience is a little dated, but here is my opinion.
In my early post-college years I was poor, so I bought an '85 Jetta. It handled pretty well and was one of the nicer small, sportier sedans available.
When we needed reliable transportation with a bit of sportiness we bought a 1992 Accord (great car, by the way). Just a great mix of practical, sporty, and reliable.
When my means improved I splurged (for me) for a new 1998 Audi A4, 6-cyl, manual transmission.
When the kids got too big to ride in the back of the Audi, I opted for a 2005 Acura TL - trying to retain some sporty and luxury with more space and practicality.
My conclusions:
- The Audi was light years ahead of them all in driving pleasure. The shifting was like butter, the handling was fabulous, and it had the right mix of sportiness and luxury. But it was only of average reliability and expensive as hell to fix once the warranty went out. But I really MISS that car!
- The Acura is a transportation device. It looks nice, has been fabulously reliable, and has great power. It doesn't handle that well, it wallows in the curves, and although most people would say the interior is very nice, it is NOT like the European Audi in interior sumptuousness and certainly not in handling. But it is very comfortable and damn reliable. Just not nearly as much passion to drive.
- The '92 Accord was an amazingly capable car and I kind of miss that one too.
Funny that the car that inspired the least passion of the last 3 is the current '05 TL.
If you want reliable, buy Asian. If your tastes lean toward luxury, you can probably do well with Lexus. If you like sport/luxury, NOTHING beats the Europeans. You just need to be willing to tolerate some more glitches. But it can easily be worth it.
Since I'm in no mood these days to pay upwards of 50K for a luxury car, I keep looking for more economical mixtures of sport and luxury. I would actually consider the Mazda 3 on the low end. Or perhaps the A3. The previous model TSX was very nice but the new one is bloated.
But in my heart I keep lusting for a true European car. The differences are real, if those characteristics are important to you. They are obviously important to many of us.
TM
The racing tracks which are closer to my place are Montmeló (Barcelona), Jarama (Madrid), Cheste (Valencia) and Valencia (Valencia main town). Jerez (Cadiz) takes a bit further away. Cheste and Jarama are most for hiring a session or taking lessons. As well, Cheste and Jerez (the origin of Sherry wine) are nowadays for motorbike races.
To see car races in Spain (F1), I have only gone to Jerez (years ago) and Montmeló (taking advantage of my daughter's living in Barcelona). It is an interesting atmosphere—though I'm not as much a fan as to go frequently. Out of Spain I went once to Spa-Francorchamps (Belgium) and Le Mans (just for a few hours). This was much time ago, in my French years. Oh, Youth, how quick you are left behind!
Regards,
Jose
--------------
Welcome back, Oac.
Regards,
Jose
Have you driven an Infiniti G? I agree with your thoughts on the TL, but if you've never been behind the wheel of a G37, you may be surprised at how close it gets to the European experience. Like the TL its interior doesn't measure up to the current A4 or even a 3 series, but it makes an A4 2.0T very hard to justify for the same money.
No. Absolutely not. "Ain't gonna happen".
There will always be those that align themselves exclusively in the Japanese camp or the European camp for a while, but not an entire generation (and not the majority), and interestingly many of them ultimately either switch camps, or finally cross the lines entirely and no longer hold loyal to one or the other.
I personally have an interesting mix of American, Japanese, British and German. So, for me, it's more about the car, not where it came from.
Others here also have a mix, and even some here that have been loyal to one camp for a while have recently crossed the line and purchased cars from the other side.
So... I realize you have buyer's remorse regarding your X3, but there are plenty of European vehicles out there that are terrific, even including other models from BMW. Besides, the X3 is well-known to be a compromised vehicle, and it doesn't represent BMW or the European vehicles well at all... its replacement is coming soon, and will hopefully be improved. VW, Audi, Porsche, Mercedes, Jaguar, as well as the more exotic European marques all offer acceptable European alternatives to BMW if you are inclined to ban BMW from your future shopping list.
I must be frank with you and tell you that I think that it is silly, close-minded, over-reactive and self-depriving when you recently suggested that you are totally through with all the European vehicles because of an X3.
I realize you are relatively new to this forum, but if you stick around here, you will learn a lot about vehicles and real-life vehicle experiences that just might put your situation into a more balanced perspective. Open your mind, listen and learn, and realize knowledge is power... you could have been more aware of that X3 from LG's experience, just for example. And, you will also realize that there are some terrific vehicles from all shores, not just Japan.
TM
All electric... 536 HP, 738 lbs. torque, and 0-60 under 4 seconds.
Car's identity, info, and more pics here: link title and also here: link title
TM
Here we see the Toyota version of the Lexus HS250h... or is it really the other way around? Is the HS250h a Lexus version of the Toyota? Well, either way...
Probably a better value under the Toyota badge.
Here's the info: link title
TM