Luxury Lounge

houdini1

I am also excited by the prospects of some of the new offerings that may be coming. I'll tell you one thing though. I will not be buying anything just because it has a great diesel or hybrid engine. First, I will have to like the whole package.

Right now my perfect vehicle would be an LX 460 or the upcoming 570 with a smooth, quiet, powerful diesel that would get around 24/26 mpg combined.

I did like the looks of that new EX though, especially the interior. If it looks that good in "person" and I like the way it drives, then I could be persuaded.

lexusguy

Personally, I really like the M's interior, as much as I do the upcoming EX's interior. I like both the carbon fiber treatment and the wood. Nicely done.

Very impressive. Both Acura and Lexus have no answer for this. I'll have to take an '08 out on the highway for awhile, if it isn't too noisy, I can perhaps see myself buying one.

tagman

I will not be buying anything just because it has a great diesel or hybrid engine. First, I will have to like the whole package.

Absolutely agree. The vehicle itself has to rate on its own merit. There's no doubt about that. That's why, if a fantastic vehicle comes along, there's no question that a gas ICE may need to be considered as well as diesel or hybrid... but, for me, from now on, only if it's fuel efficient. No more gas hogs for me.

As I've been posting so far, the MBZ GLK diesel is the one I'm waiting to evaluate. By the time it hits the market, however, I expect there should be some additional compelling competition out there to consider as well.

TagMan

jcoby

"I will not be buying anything just because it has a great diesel or hybrid engine."

I agree, but NO vehicle currently on the market completely meets my needs and desires. As such, I must weigh how close a vehicle comes to meeting my ideal to determine whether or not it is feasible to own. A hybrid or diesel powertrain is such a positive attribute to me that I am willing to overlook some other deficiencies in the design of a vehicle. For example, I find the exterior of the BMW 1-series to be quite unattractive - especially the extraneous creases and character lines that infect the sheetmetal. However, the other attributes of the vehicle, in combination with the availability of a diesel powertrain enhanced with mild-hybrid features, would allow me to overlook the exterior and wholeheartedly proceed with the purchase.

The car that would actually come the closest to meeting my needs and desires is the upcoming Audi A5, if it were available with a full-hybrid powertrain that incorporates a small displacement 6-cylinder engine (instead of a 4-cylinder). I could, perhaps, be a national spokesman for an A5 equipped in that manner.

topspin628

I was curious if there were any 08 owners who could share their experience. I like the new grill treatment. I took a long test drive and I still can't decide. I love the looks but there was a bit lacking in driving. It wasn't as smooth or quiet as my LS430. I did hear some intrusive road noise that I don't have in my LS. The steering seemed a bit light (kind of old style Buick like) and the car floated a bit. I drove the L which is a BIG car. What I liked was the styling in and out. The special feeling of being in a "rare" car- not as common place as the various BMW, MB, Lexus in my area. The engine growl when pressed hard was also a nice surprise although speed-wise I think my LS is still faster.
Any comments from owners of recent XJ cars is appreciated.
I may take it out for another spin.

foster1

Suggest you try an XJ-R, if the price isn't out of your range. The XJ-R (which I own among other cars) has faster and heavier-weighted steering, more aggressive suspension settings, a lowered ride height, and of course the more powerful supercharged engine. If it's too expensive, you might consider a used one. They come off of lease frequently in perfect condition and low mileage, and you can take advantage of Jaguar's high depreciation!

tagman

Topspin - I'm one of only a couple of posters on this particular forum to have first-hand experience with the recent generation XJ. Originally, my wife wanted it, but she drives it so little compared to her SUV, that I end up driving it about twice a week.

Ours is the late '05 Vanden Plas with the '06 appearance (chrome mesh grill). For the most part, as you know, the Vanden Plas is a loaded XJ"L", so we're essentially talking about the same animal. Also, the '08 car hasn't fundamentally changed. The grill treatment is different, and there's a small rear deck treatment, but I do love the side shark gill (side vent) treatment that was originally exclusive to the Portfolio... nice touch!

Consider that this huge sedan only weighs in very close to the much-smaller BMW 3-Series, and has the same 300 hp as the 335i's twin-turbo engine. That's one reason it feels so spirited with only 300 hp. When I drive the car, my real-life combined fuel economy is easily 20+ mpg, and highway mpg is mid-twenties!... that's much better than a Lexus LS600hL hybrid! Some posters may suggest the XJR... but I can understand, but not necessarily need in this type of ride. Try it for yourself, and determine if you want a stiffer ride. For me, I like a little more of a buttery ride in this class of car, and I leave the performance to my Porsche. The XJ does have a "sport" setting, BTW.

Gigantic trunk, and stretch-out rear legroom are terrific.

Mine has the rear DVD entertainment system with the twin color monitors in the headrests... for me, it's great, because I drive my son once a week to one of his activities, and it's a 45-minute drive, so he watches half a movie on the outbound direction, and the other half on the return trip.

The navigation has been very good, and I personally love the woman's voice with the British accent. (LOL.) The built-in driver's voice command is one of the best there is, because it has a training session that teaches and familiarizes the system to two different driver's voices... less misunderstandings that way. The integrated phone, navigation, and climate control are all driver's voice controlled, if desired. Otherwise, the usual controls are available.

Our XJ VDP has had absolutely zero service issues to date. I am actually a little surprised, but that's great news so far.

The car's handling is reasonably good, IMO, but I also drive that Porsche Carrera S, so not much else ever feels as responsive. The Jag is spirited, and corners and handles fairly well at normal speeds, but get going over 85-90 mph, and it starts getting pretty sloppy. It does float a bit, but that's part of the charm of this cruiser, IMO. The turning radius is incredibly tight, which I really appreciate.

The styling is totally subjective. I'm good with it's classic lines, but many are not. When I'm out and about with the Jag, I do get a fair amount of compliments on the car, which says something for it.

The seats are extremely comfortable, no matter how long the drive, and I must admit, the car possesses a certain prestige and charm that I happen to appreciate when driving it. It is not the more common Mercedes, BMW, or Lexus that are everywhere in my community, although there are a fair number of Jags here. It seems to stand out somehow.

As I've said, I've had no issues with the car, but I do think that anyone buying a high-end sedan other than a Lexus, should be prepared for the increased possibility of an issue down the road... but Jag's XJ has rated reasonably well in reliability with this latest generation.

Used one?... well, yes it could be worth the money if you find the right one... due to the outrageous depreciation the first two years. Otherwise, you can get a reasonably good deal on a new one, if you push hard.

I don't know what else to say... good luck if you get one, and if you have any more questions, let me know!

TagMan

blkhemi

I came across an article in reference to the newly refreshed Lexus GS.

It was really an interesting read, really. Up until I got to the good section we boys love to read, the specs.

I wasn't too thrilled to learn that Lexus cut back power to the long-awaited 460. It makes 342hp, while it's larger brother makes 38 more at 380. What gives? It really makes the GS350 that much more of a value.

Since '98, the GS has always had more power than the LS. The GS400 had 300hp(most in it's class at the time), while the LS400 made do with 290. Small change, yes back then. But almost 40hp disadvantage? BMW offers the 550i with same 360hp as the larger 750. MBZ offers the E550 with the same 382hp as the S550. Audi offers the A6 4.2 with the same 350hp as the A8.

I was just wondering what was Lexus' thought on doing things this way? Some of the Lexus guys may be able to help with this one.

lexusguy

Since '98, the GS has always had more power than the LS. The GS400 had 300hp(most in it's class at the time), while the LS400 made do with 290. Small change, yes back then. But almost 40hp disadvantage? BMW offers the 550i with same 360hp as the larger 750. MBZ offers the E550 with the same 382hp as the S550. Audi offers the A6 4.2 with the same 350hp as the A8.

Lexus is sometimes strange with horsepower. I think the original GS400 used a slightly different\updated version of Lexus' 4.0L V8, because the SC\LS had the same 290hp. One would think that when the GS and LS changed to 4.3L, they would get the same amount of power, but nope.

When the IS300 launched, it had 10 less horsepower than the SC\GS300 had 8 years previously. Supposedly it was a packaging issue with the engine, the same reason the I6 M roadster was down on power compared to the M3.

I'm not sure what Lexus' thinking is with the GS460. I don't really understand what Lexus is thinking with the GS altogether. The current GS430 has less power than the GS350. How much sense does that make?

topspin628

Thanks, Tagman, for your review. I wanted to really love it because I do love the styling and a jag is well, a jag to me. It's always been a special car. I don't need a large back seat since it's either me alone or with the wife. But I did drive the LS430 for the last three years because I wanted a lux ride with all the bells and whistles. I am trying to decide now if I want to stay in the lux segment or go back to the more sporty segment (I'm bored of the Lexus). I drove the BMW 535xi, it was very fast, it handled beautifully, stopped on a dime and had that great BMW steering. With the comfort seats it would be a fine place to spend time. The body styling is nice but I don't love it. Where the jag missed a bit for me was that it wasn't as quiet or smooth as the Lexus Ls or MB S and it wasn't as sporty as the BMW 7 ( or 5,of course). I think they need to move the needle more to one side or the other depending on where they want to compete. By the way, I did hear some unwanted rode noise in the one I tested. Does your XJ have that as well?

blkhemi

"Lexus sometimes strange with horsepower."

If you never say another thing right, that was definitely it.

I just couldn't understand it this morning when I read the article. It even forced me to call my brother, and he too was scratching the old noggin.

Back in '98, no GS was to ever out dance a 540i or have the prestige of an E430 or craftsmanship and elegance of the Audi A6 4.2. But one thing was for sure, it could flat out SMOKE'EM in a straight line with that stormer of a V8 it had at the time. It just really made the '97 look really pathetic.

Fast forward to '08, and it doesn't even have that to call it's own. I thought for sure that it would give the E550 some competition by matching it's 380ish horses and with Lexus fitting it with the 8-speed auto, it would for sure be in the low 5' hige 4's given that it moves it's 4500 pound larger brother with relative ease.

But again, I digress, Lexus is completely sleep at the wheel when it comes to this car. The Hybrid is a joke, leaving only the 350 to be it's only calling card. I wonder have they just conceded to the Germans and Infiniti M in this class? Will they just concentrate on the IS and IS-F? Will there be an "F" model to the GS? I guess only time will tell.

louiswei

The current GS430 has less power than the GS350. How much sense does that make?

Not much sense over there but there is a reason for that. When the GS debuted in 2005 there were 2 original models: GS300 and GS430. At that time the V8 GS430 has more horsepower than the GS300 so it made sense back then. Then the GS450h came along and had around 330HP combined so that already made the GS430 kind of pointless. When Lexus decided to drop the 2GR-FSE into the GS to make it GS350 with 304HP earlier this year (2007) that has totally made the GS430 irrelevant and pointless. Even though the GS460 will be making less HP than the LS460 at least it'll make the V8 GS to have the highest HP output again so it "sort of" makes sense.

I agree with blkhemi though, what the heck is Lexus thinking by making the GS460 only around 340HP when it can easily output around 380?

blkhemi

ALthough out of taste for some, the XJR definitely corrects some of your thoughts regarding the floaty ride and performance issues with the Jag.

Altough not quite as refined as say an S550, it is definitely class worthy. It won't end your worried on the quietness issue, but anything other than the LS won't be that quiet. That is Lexus' one true calling card.

But I found the XJ to be highly refined and capable of doing just about everything the other cars can do, except: Hold it's value.

But for that reason, you can find a hard loaded XJ8w/VDP for up to half of it's sticker with low miles and CPO. An '05 XJR here is going for $31k, w/ only 13k miles on the clock, and this huge "CAT" country in LI.

There is also a '06 Super V8 $46K, over half off of MSRP. It just all in what you like and want. If I wasn't into Audi's so much, the Jaguar would definitely would be in my garage, given the fact of it's solid reliability numbers and good build quality and rarity.

But I "settled" for an XKR.

blkhemi

Maybe that's where they're going with it. I don't understand it, seeing how it's only more powerful than the M for now, as it will be getting a new V8 late this year to stay competitive and given the fact now that the GS will not be that much more powerful or quicker(if) than the 450h. But maybe it's work for them

lexusguy

I wonder have they just conceded to the Germans and Infiniti M in this class? Will they just concentrate on the IS and IS-F? Will there be an "F" model to the GS? I guess only time will tell.

Supposedly a GS-F is in the pipeline. Perhaps that is the reason Lexus cut the 4.6L's power in the GS. I seriously doubt the GS-F will be able to match the muscle of an M5 or E63. It will probably be closer to the S6 - maybe 420hp. If thats the case, they wouldn't want the GS460 to be to close in power.

tagman

Does your XJ have that as well?

It's not bad at all, and mine has the optional chrome 5-star factory rims with low profile tires, so I expect it to have a wee bit more road harshness. I think blkhemi put it realistically when he mentioned that the Lexus LS does "quiet" best.

I agree with you about the great looks. And I totally understand that the performance isn't top notch as compared to the BMW or Mercedes. I originally thought we were going to buy the new S-Class, when my wife landed on the Jag. It was her turn to pick, so we got the Jag. I'm not complaining, because she's given me absolutely no grief about buying the Porsche Carrera S that I wanted recently, after wasting a little bit of money on a Lotus, due to its near immediate trade-in. Maybe next time, it'll be the S-Class, but frankly, I think we will probably not buy another Luxury sedan for a while after the Jag, since it doesn't get nearly the use that our SUVs get... therefore the Mercedes GL and the GLK both are in our personal scope for the future.

The idea of the XJR is one you will have to drive to determine for yourself. If you really need more get-up-and-go, than that's a great way to get the good looks you are after, and boost the performance at the same time.

But, as I've said, I never really expected to get the Jag, but since we got it, I have little regrets, as it's been a nice car to own and drive, with zero problems to date, and amazing gas mileage with that 300 hp normally-aspirated engine, which BTW, is exceptionally smooth with a very nice torque curve.

Keep us posted. If you do drive the XJR, let us know what you think.

TagMan

blkhemi

Those were my initial thoughts too.

And now that Lexus has the GS-F in the pipeline, they don't want to over-shadow it with 380hp of GS460.

But, the simple thing to do would be to give it a nice round 480-500hp, if the chassis and suspension could handle it. That's the only way it will be competitive at the top end.

They pulled out all of the stops with the IS-F, going head-on with the M3, matching it's power with a one liter bigger V8 that doesn't scream like the M3's motor.

Although it hasn't been driven, Lexus promises it to be the car everyone has been waiting on. But I must ask, with the E63 and M5 everybody's dream machine, wouldn't Lexus want to cash in on the pie too? I don't know how far out they can tweak the 4.6 or 5.0L engines, but they've got to show up with at least 480hp to be taken serious.

That's why Audi left the S6 and 430hp where it is to make room for the 520hp RS6 this winter. The same for the late 2008 hi-po A8 with the same engine.

tagman

But I "settled" for an XKR.

Yeah, LOL, we're all feeling sorry for you, Hemi, with your fast, sexy, gorgeous XKR.

Respectfully, I know you have genuine appreciation for that car, which IMO, increases its value. .

TagMan

lexusguy

But, the simple thing to do would be to give it a nice round 480-500hp, if the chassis and suspension could handle it. That's the only way it will be competitive at the top end.

I think it will depend on what engine Lexus decides to use in the GS-F. Their 5.0L V8 makes less than 400hp in the 600hL, and around 400hp in the IS-F. I'm not sure how much farther it can go. If they use the LF-A's V-10, 500hp should be no problem.

Lexus also promised that the GS would be a match for the 5 series. The IS-F had better be more than hype, because from what I've been reading, the C63 is a monster of a car, and not just in a straight line like AMGs of old.

tagman

from what I've been reading, the C63 is a monster of a car, and not just in a straight line like AMGs of old.

LG - that reminds me of something I had read about the upcoming GLK receiving a serious AMG treatment of its own.

So what's your thought?... GLK diesel or GLK AMG?

Assuming you decided to get a GLK, my guess is that you would choose the diesel, since you've already got that beautiful Jag XK for performance, leaving the AMG as unnecessary.

That would likely be my scenario as well, with the Porsche. I'd want the GLK with the diesel, although the AMG would be tempting.

But... aside from our situations, that small SUV with a serious AMG treatment could still be a serious machine for those that want tons of zip in a small SUV. Gosh, what could compete with it?

TagMan

louiswei

The IS-F had better be more than hype, because from what I've been reading, the C63 is a monster of a car, and not just in a straight line like AMGs of old.

Agree.

Even though every indication has the IS-F aiming directly at the M3 (and the regular IS aiming at the 3-series), a closer look will reveal that the real competitor for the IS is the C-class. There is not a better C63 AMG clone than the smooth as butter 8-speed AT and 5.0L 400HP+ V8 IS-F with a luxurious touch. What's remained to be seen is if the IS-F can handle as good as the C63.

Like the IS, the GS is more of an E-class competitor than it is to the 5-series. LF-A's V10 should be the ideal engine choice for the GS-F but I seriously doubt that the original GS chassis can handle it. A serious structural strengthening project has to be taken place but it'll be very un-Lexus like to go all out just for one performance model.

lexusguy

Assuming you decided to get a GLK, my guess is that you would choose the diesel, since you've already got that beautiful Jag XK for performance, leaving the AMG as unnecessary.

Well, the GLK would be for my wife, so it would be the diesel. She doesn't need/want crazy horsepower or super stiff handling. I'm not sure what my next car is going to be, but its going to have four doors and normal ride height.

Unless Audi decides to do some kind of Q5-S, a GLK AMG would be in a class of its own. Not that that's any guarantee of sales success. The R63 was also in a class of its own.

blkhemi

"The IS-F has better be more than hype, because from what I've been reading,t he C63 is a monster of a car, and not just in a straight line like AMGs of old."

You're so right about the IS-F. Lexus knows that it has a lot riding on this one performance model. And that's why they delayed it again just behind the M3. I don't blame them, because the M3 has a cult following that isn't going anywhere anytime soon, especially since BMW gave us a V8 this go'round. I want the best for the car, but I can't see Lexus going as hardcore as the M3. It is expected of BMW to go all out on the M3 regarding handling and performance. But Lexus? I sure hope they prove me wrong.

And yes, Lexus did promise us a 5-Series competitor out of the GS this time. But just like the old man used to say: The more things change, the more they stay the same.

pearl

Couldn't find a specific thread on this topic so decided to post this question here and on another forum. Understanding that this is a very subjective question, what are the opinions on which cars have the best seats? Looking mostly for comments about long distance trip comfort. I have owned BMWs for 15 years and found my old 5 series to be quite good, except a little hard. I have a new 328, with even harder seats, but the cushion does not really extend out far enough to support my thighs over long periods. I could not wait to buy a 535 (would have gotten the special "comfort seats"), but have heard others wax on about Volvos, Lexus, MB and the Caddy DTS! Lots of differences in those cars. What do others think?

carnaught

I have owned BMWs for 15 years and found my old 5 series to be quite good, except a little hard. I have a new 328, with even harder seats, but the cushion does not really extend out far enough to support my thighs over long periods. I could not wait to buy a 535 (would have gotten the special "comfort seats"), but have heard others wax on about Volvos, Lexus, MB and the Caddy DTS! Lots of differences in those cars. What do others think?

Ultimately who cares what others think? We all have our biases. It is very subjective and you should go with what's most comfortable and what total package works the best for you.

tagman

It is official, but not announced yet... announcement to come in the very near future.

An inside friend tells me that the E-Class BlueTech diesel will be available in California for this next model year as a pilot program. The E BlueTech will only be available with a short-term lease, without any purchase options.

TagMan

blkhemi

It is a matter of taste and subjective feel to most.

Historically, the German makes had the hardest seats going, but for that, they did not lose form like a lot other seats.

Volvo used to reign supreme in this category, but with the latest S80, some seem to think otherwise. I found the seats in the rental DTS very comfortable, but true to Cadillac's style, no lateral support whatsoever, but then again, you're not supposed to hanging g's in the DTS anyway.

My multi-adjustable seats in my Audi's are perfect. Not too hard, but true to the Germanic nature of them, they'll never let you forget that they are German: Firm.

I personally don't like squishy seats, sort of like some of the Lexus cars. But some love it.

britcrlvr

There is a little road noise in the car. the car does have a sport mode, hit the car with the winding road, and the car hunkers down a little bit. more grip. I don't expect it to feel as quiet or "vanilla" as the LS. the thing with the jag, is it going to not be as quiet as the other's but it might be more driver friendly. tHE other thing you should consider is driving it in the sport mode, this also might change the ride a little bit. Other than that there are tradeoffs it just depends on what you're willing to give up. ,

lexusguy

Understanding that this is a very subjective question, what are the opinions on which cars have the best seats? Looking mostly for comments about long distance trip comfort

BMW's comfort seats are excellent. Volvo seats are almost always spectacular, though I didn't care for the seats in the old S80. The latest Jaguar seats are very comfortable. Lexus seats are just OK, kinda flat. Good seats are important, but they are not my top priority when car shopping.

blckislandguy

Drfil, there is a nice piece in the current (October) issue of European Car which touts the E320 BlueTec's "Amazing power..great big gobs of tire-burning torque...". They say it has 400 foot pounds of torque at 1600 RPM. For those of us who are motor heads, please remember that when the much larger 5.9 litre Cummins B Series engine first came out in the Dodge pickup to great acclaim it too had 400 pounds of torque but at a higher RPM (1800). All in all, this 3.0 litre Merc motor is a real stump puller. European Car also reports a 0-60 time of 6.6 seconds (which is what the MB PR department claims; isn't independent journalism refreshing?) and find the car a lot of fun to drive and toss. Now if they would just offer it in AWD it would be perfect.

I think that if you have to buy a MB for socialpsychological reasons, this one could be fun. And when you got bored with it, your resale would be a lot higher than the gas powered used E Classes. (Used E Classes though seem to be a dime a dozen: Cars.com lists more than 800 used E Class cars for sale within 250 miles of Block Island, RI 02807!)

brightness04

This half-baked marketting ploy is getting weirder and weirder. I wonder, what's the "insurmountable technicial difficulty" now that the company would market it like GM did with the EV-1 more than a decade ago? That blue liquid injection is not only necessary to keep the car emission legal, but also that something in the emission control system is killing a major component of the car and making it infeasible for resale ?? What in the world is going on with this high school science project? :-) Time for the grown-up's to come in, either sort it out or clean the mess up.

brightness04

Engine torque doesn't mean much in a world that has 7-sp, 8-sp and CVT transmissions. Horsepower (minus some parasitic loss, which is aplenty in RWD cars) divided by cumulative gear ratio is the wheel torque that gets put to the ground. Wheel torque (not engine torque) is what pushes the car forward. There is only 208hp to go around in the E320DBT, less than a typical plebian V6 family sedan from Honda, Toyota, Nissan, GM and Ford. The turbo lag kills any "off the line" claims of superiority. "European Car" is about as biased as they get. So far, the performance review of E320d vs. E350 has shown that the E320d to be a complete dog plagued by turbo lags.

brightness04

The sensationalistic article just exposed itself as a lie. Less than 7,500 miles a year?? So that's where the high per mile cost for Prius comes from. If set to a normal 15,000 mile year, wouldn't the number be close to $1.50? (half of $2.86 quoted, gas cost per mile is negligible).

Goes to show that the so-called "research" is little more than a hack piece with desired conclusion drawn before-hand. The piece may well conclude that greens who have cars but don't drive them much are the worst polluters on per mile basis :-) People who wantonly drive their cars to no purpose and pile up a ton of miles in the process are the best conservationists on per mile basis.

brightness04

I always thought that iDrive is a great idea. It just takes time to work out the details . . . details that include drivers who get used to such an interface over time. Magazine reviewers, by virtue of having the car for only a few days if not only a few hours, really maligned BMW, the pioneer in this field, rather too harshly.

topspin628

The two seats that I've tried that seem the best to me are the MB S Class and the BMW comfort seats. They are both very comfortable and allow one to drive for a very long time with little fatigue. I had a BMW X5 that did not have the comfort seats but again, I could drive for hours in complete comfort.
The Lexus LS seats are too flat. I much prefer the more orthopedic seats of MB and BMW. I don't find Audi seats to be as good.

tagman

This half-baked marketting ploy is getting weirder and weirder.

The weirdness isn't the fault of Mercedes marketing, as you point a finger at them without sufficient information. The problem is with the State of California... CARB is a tricky group to deal with.

Mercedes will prove to the CARB that the BlueTech emmission technology works... and will do so without any ownership risk to the drivers of the cars.

Later, once the CARB is satisfied, the folks that leased the E-Class BlueTech would be then free to buy or lease a new 2010 model, assuming they liked the experience enough to do so. If not, they can buy or lease something else, of course.

If anything, you have to give Mercedes a lot of positive recognition and kudos for jumping through hoops to satisfy the State of California.

TagMan

brightness04

CARB appies the same standard to both gasoline and diesel cars. It's the diesel advocates who want to make an exemption in the rules to make diesel emission legal . . . kinda odd for a group that purports to be concerned about the environment.

"Mercedes will prove to the CARB . . ."

hahaha, that's a big conjecture from someone who accuses others of not having enough information. The fact that proof is wanting shows that nobody has enough information on whether Mercedes will succeed on _trying_ to prove to the CARB even if they were actually trying to prove anything. In reality, they are just putting in the blue liquid injecting stall horse until something that does not require injection comes along. In other words, there is no "will prove" involved. It's a stop gap product that would simply be illegal on the road after a short time period without the emission control system replaced/recharged. In other words, MB is not even beta-testing on consumers; they are alpha-testing: the product is not even finished in development stage, much less debuggging.

tagman

That's YOUR interpretation of the situation.

At least Mercedes is moving forward with the BlueTech instead of caving in to the beaurocrats. You can show your true colors and have your usual fun poking at Mercedes all you want, but I respect them for their diligence.

You should recognize that the emisisons technology with regards to the clean diesels will only improve over time, just as hybrid technology has improved and will continue to improve. I don't think that is too hard to grasp.

TagMan

brightness04

That's YOUR interpretation of the situation. All I can see in BlueTec is a silly marketting term that does not even stand for a specific piece of technology . . . a thin veil covering for MB's decades of squandering its engineering resources and heritage, now falling rapidly behind in terms of marketable technology.

Sure, everything can potentially improve over time. However, those don't improve quickly enough to keep up with the competition, or barking up the wrong tree, simply get eliminated; that's how market reality works. Is any of us typing on an IBM mainframe terminal? They too were improving till the very dead end, just not quickly enough, and up the wrong tree. Even for the car industry, this competitive reality is not unique to "clean diesels." Back a century ago, electrical cars and steam engine cars were gradually losing ground to internal combustion engine. It would have been surpreme folly for any car company to hang onto electrical cars for 90 years before battery technology improved in recent years. Silly pride does not pay bills.

tagman

All I can see in BlueTec is a silly marketting term that does not even stand for a specific piece of technology . . . a thin veil covering for MB's decades of squandering its engineering resources and heritage, now falling rapidly behind in terms of marketable technology.

I think those first four words explains it perfectly... so, it's all you can see... I believe that it is indeed all you can see.

But, that doesn't mean that I don't see a lot more than that taking place. I'm not about to open your eyes and help you to see what is happening.

Mercedes is about to take it's first steps with BlueTech in California... As a California resident, I completely understand that Mercedes would introduce the diesel here with caution, and I don't blame them.

TagMan

brightness04

Those four words are the polite way of saying all the reality on the ground is for the term "Bluetec": a meaningless marketing term that does not refer to a single specific technology. I have no desire to become a MB devotee seeing things with mind's eye. The emperor really does not have clothes on. There is no "BlueTech" from MB, hence no "BlueTech in California" unless the dovotees are cooking up their own. There is only "Bluetec," which is a registered trademark owned by MB, and not associated with any specific technology (e.g. urea or what-not). It's a silly marketting term that was inspired by the urea liquid, but currently in a state of limbo as far as what technology is concerned. In other words, it's just a marketing term for MB "clean diesel," however that is achieved blue liquid or no blue liquid, achieved or not achieved, clean or not clean. It's like "low tar cigarette" . . . compared to what??

tagman

"Hybrid Synergy Drive" is Toyota's trademark for a hybrid powertrain. It's just as much a marketing name as is "BlueTec"... so what?

Here's what BlueTec really is about:

BLUETEC - A New Blueprint for the World's Cleanest Diesels

Mercedes-Benz diesels have an innovative, high-tech powertrain that's highly efficient and powerful. They offer four-cylinder fuel economy with V8 torque.

To ensure what exits the engine is already as clean as possible, BLUETEC is built on a foundation of advanced engine design that includes four valves per cylinder, centrally located piezo-electric injectors, third-generation CDI direct injection, a turbocharger with variable nozzle turbine and exhaust gas recirculation. Central to the E320 BLUETEC is a new 3.0-liter V6 turbodiesel engine producing 210 horsepower and 388 lb.-ft. of torque, which replaces the in-line six found in the previous E320 CDI.

The BLUETEC system depends on the use of ultra low-sulfur diesel fuel (less than 15 parts per million) that becomes available throughout the U.S. this fall. Sulfur is a natural element in most mineral oils. It has a corrosive effect on engines and is a major cause of particulate emissions. The availability of extremely low-sulfur fuel enables the use of reliable particulate filters and efficient nitrogen oxide after-treatment.

The E320 BLUETEC incorporates four after-treatment units in the exhaust stream - an oxidizing catalytic converter, a particulate filter, an advanced "denox" storage converter, and a SCR catalytic converter.

A BLUETEC Module for the Future - AdBlue

To meet even more stringent emission requirements the a BLUETEC system could be equipped with another module - AdBlue injection. A water-based urea solution, AdBlue is carried in its own small tank and metered into the exhaust in minute quantities, so small that the tank only needs to be refilled during routine scheduled maintenance. When AdBlue is injected into pre-cleaned exhaust gas, ammonia (NH3) is released, converting nitrogen oxides into harmless nitrogen (and water) in the downstream SCR catalytic converter. Called SCR, for selective catalytic reduction, this process creates the most effective method of exhaust gas after-treatment currently available.

In Europe, AdBlue injection has already proven effective in more than 15,000 Mercedes-Benz commercial vehicles, and the AdBlue supply network covers some 1,500 locations.

Real-World Benefits to BLUETEC

Not only is BLUETEC the cleanest diesel technology in the world, which can meet the most stringent emissions standards, but it also helps customers make tangible fuel savings and reduce dependence on oil imports. With its super-clean exhaust, BLUETEC can also increase the appeal and the sheer availability of diesel vehicles.

Hope that helps you see that there is actual technology behind the name BlueTec. If you still don't see it, then I guess I'm at a loss to help a blind man see.

TagMan

brightness04

Of course HSD is a trademark. However, it has very specific relevant substance behind the name: yes, it is a hybrid; yes, it invovles the ICE and the electric motor both putting torque, in computer-controlled ratios, onto the drive shaft before connecting to the wheels; yes, it is a drive system. Every single word in the name "Hybrid Synergy Drive" has a specific meaning related to the underlying technology used. It's not called "StarTrek Blue Ion Drive," for example.

Whereas for the "Bluetec" trademark, because as your own quoted press release says "To meet even more stringent emission requirements the a BLUETEC system could be equipped with another module - AdBlue injection. . ." so in other words, there is nothing blue in the default Bluetec configuration without that "AdBlue" module. In other words, the default "Bluetec" is not blue at all before they "Add Blue" . . . so what is "Bluetec" subtract "Blue"? nothing tech :-)

brightness04

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/08/22/impounded_maserati/

bristol2

The water based urea mixture is blue. Hence Adblue.

Forgive me, but this is not an arguement worthy of anyone's time. You would be just as valid to be outraged that diesels are called 'diesel' because that is also a contrived name which is not reflected in the technology (just the inventor).

brightness04

Yes, that's my understanding too. So what is the blackbox magic before the optional AdBlue module is added? NothingTec, right? In other words, the default "Bluetec" engine is really NothingTec. "Bluetec" is really NothingTech plus an optional AdBlue module :-) Then when they have it finally figured it all out, and urea injection is no longer necessary, it will be back to NothingTec, right? :-)

"Diesel" is the lastname of the man who invented the engine cycle. Regular gasoline engines are called Otto-Cycle engines. The name for "Diesel" fuel comes from its suitability to be used in a Diesel-Cycle engine.

blckislandguy

Briteness04, I write this fully aware of the aphorism, "Never argue with a newspaper publisher because he buys ink by the barrel". Anyone who can post as many well written pieces (Five or six today alone?) as you is a force to be reckoned with. But let me plunge ahead and address your comment about the MB Diesel being "a complete dog".

Sure, we all understand and can solve the equation relating torque to rpm divided by a constant (5252) to get HP. Sure, we can all agree that what counts is what gets delivered to the rear wheels and that a 7 or even 8 speed tranny helps. But, seriously, 400 foot pounds of torque at barely above idle is unprecedented. It is more torque than the very stout six cylinder in-line Cummins B Series with twice the cubic inch displacement, when it first came out. This kind of power would have been quite robust for any Class 8 truck just a generation ago. Torque is a measureable thing. It is what gets the wheels turning. It is "twist". If you look at the specs of contempary Class 8 trucks they will have as much as 1500 pounds of torque running through a three plate clutch. But only say 350 HP (e.g., the Cummins 350 Big Cam).

Given its torque, I suspect that a MB320 Blue Tec probably has a fantastic 0-30 time. Just fantastic. Maybe the best of all sedans. A real stump puller. This kind of 0-30 performance reminds me of the VW Bug that most of us drove when we came back from VN. Nothing could beat it for the first 25 feet.

Finally, leaving the 0-30 figure aside, anything that can do 0-60 in 6.6 seconds is hardly a dog. The vast majority of Porsches and Bimmers registered in the USA are nowhere close to this figure.

brightness04

What you wrote would be right on the mark if the torque spec were from a normally aspirited engine. Turbo charged engines are very different. Even turbo charged gasoline engines can get 130+ ft-lb/liter at barely above idle. It's not done for a very good reason: the turbo lag from spinning up such a high pressure turbo would be atrocious. The review of MB320DBT shows that is indeed the case.

blckislandguy

RE: Good Seats

Has anyone tried the Audi "Sport seats"? In '07 they were a $500 stand alone option for the A6 which seems like a steal. Regrettably, I don't think anyone bought them (that is to say, any dealers ordered and stocked them). In '08 you have to order the $2000 S Line package which includes the Sport seats (and nothing else that is at all meaningful: who cares what the door sills look like?). I sat in them in an RS6 and they seemed great and probably worth the $2000 they now cost as part of the S Line package.

The Porsche 911 "adaptive" sports seats were too tight on my 210 pound frame in anything but casual summer clothing. I suspect that for daily in-and-out use you could grow tired of them unless you lived in So. Cal.

My Cayenne seats are very firm, almost too firm, for a long drive. I found myself squirming quite a bit coming back from the Atlantic Maritimes to New England on a 8 hour drive on Sunday. I much prefer the seats in my wife's XC70 Volvo.

For me, outstanding seats would be a deciding factor in a new sedan.

On a side but related note, I'm surprised that dealers who are locked in a death struggle with each other don't seek an edge by stocking cars with a variety of options and colors. Seemingly, most MB/Audi/BMW dealers order and stock silver, grey, and black. Period. No Audi dealer that I could find stocks the Sport seats. No one wants to stock an S Line. In a competitive market place wouldn't a dealership thrive if it became known as the place with the widest array of options?

topspin628

Seats are very important for me as well. I was very impressed with the BMW comfort seats. I only sat in them for a brief time but I think they may be the best out there. Maybe someone in this forum has them and can give you a better review. I'd be interested as well.