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    lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Will they offer all wheel drive? And there should be an XF-R if the 400 hp 4.2 L V8 isn't it already.

    "Three trim levels for the XF will be offered in the U.S. market: Luxury, Premium Luxury and Supercharged. Each will be powered by an all-aluminum 4.2-liter V8 borrowed from the XK. In Luxury and Premium Luxury trim, the engine is normally aspirated, just as it is in an XK; in the Supercharged model, the engine is supercharged as it is in the XKR."

    As I understand it, the supercharged version is not called the XF-R. That may appear later with a 5.0L, 500hp engine. None of the DEW98 based cars ever were offered with AWD, so the platform may not be adaptable to it.
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    jlbljlbl Member Posts: 1,333
    Brabus has improved the lean-backwards front-end design of MB. That weak neanderthal rostrum is what I do not like of current MBs.

    Regards,
    Jose
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    brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    0-62 in 7.8 seconds . . . is this the slowest Brabus in the last 20 years? ;-)
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    blkhemiblkhemi Member Posts: 1,717
    "...is this the slowest Brabus in the last 20 years?"

    Maybe so, but 0-62 in 7.8secs(7.4 to 60) is quite good for a four cyl diesel having to move over 3700 pounds of metal and glass.

    And is there another 4 cyl mass-produced sedan that can go 150mph? Evo, STi, M-Speed 3- none of them can go past 130mph and especially return 30+ mpg in the process.
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    jlbljlbl Member Posts: 1,333
    You get the XF lights. Not good, Jag.

    Very right. Jaguar should look aggressive but classy. Those lights are like a 'hortera' trying to be cool.

    Jose
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    louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    I don't understand Jaguar sometimes (well, most of the times...).

    What they should have done is make a baby XJ, slap the XF badge on it and call it a day.

    Could this be the new XJ?

    image
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    tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Exactly!

    Leave it to the AMG variant to deliver the knockout punch... and if rumors are correct, the C-Class AMG will be an unprecedented C-Class monster... packing massive HP.

    TagMan
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    louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    the C-Class AMG will be an unprecedented C-Class monster

    The upcoming IS-F will give the C63 AMG a run for its money.

    Mark my words. :P
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    tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Could this be the new XJ?

    No, IIRC, it's already been denied that the rendering you posted is the next XJ.

    Just looking at it makes me consider that it's way beyond common sense for that thing to ever be the next XJ... a car that would be the flagship. No way.

    TagMan
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    tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    The upcoming IS-F will give the C63 AMG a run for its money.

    I must agree the IS-F will likely be the best performing Lexus to date... but when they are put head to head, I'll put my $$ on the AMG.

    Wanna place a gentlemen's bet? ;)

    TagMan
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    louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Sure tagman, what ya have in mind?

    I say let's not limit ourselves to just 0-60 times but to see which one would finish ahead of another in 5 major car mag comparos (that's C&D, R&T, MT, Automobile and Edmunds Inside Line).

    BTW, I think the M3 will win all the comparos except maybe MT's.
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    tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Sure tagman, what ya have in mind?

    I say let's not limit ourselves to just 0-60 times but to see which one would finish ahead of another in 5 major car mag comparos (that's C&D, R&T, MT, Automobile and Edmunds Inside Line).

    Sounds fine.

    Just considering these three, I'll bet the concensus lands them in this order...

    1st place = M3
    2nd place = C-Class AMG
    3rd place = IS-F

    TagMan
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    louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    I agree 1st place will go to M3 4 out of 5 if not 5 out of 5, 2nd place is really up for grab. Based on my short/little experience with the IS-F, I can see Lexus is really serious with this car and I wouldn't be surprised it finishes ahead of the C63 AMG 3 out of 5 times. Also, don't forget about the RS4.

    I think the winning formula for the IS-F is:

    1. Match the C63's performance in terms of cornering stability/speed, slalom and skidpad.

    2. Stay within 0.2 seconds of C63's 0-60 and 1/4-mile times since I don't think the IS-F will top C63 in HP.

    3. Undercut C63's price for at least $10K.

    If the IS-F can achieve all 3 then I am certain it'll fare very well in the comparos.
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    brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    Maybe so, but 0-62 in 7.8secs(7.4 to 60) is quite good for a four cyl diesel having to move over 3700 pounds of metal and glass.

    I had no idea that being overweight is a bragging right. It's still a compact, right? What business does a compact sedan have for gaining that much weight.

    And is there another 4 cyl mass-produced sedan that can go 150mph? Evo, STi, M-Speed 3- none of them can go past 130mph and especially return 30+ mpg in the process.

    All three are electronicly governed from the factory. If one wants higher top speed, it's a simple matter of removing the governor. Brabus is not a factory car; it's a tuner car. All three factory cars mentioned above develop far more power than this Brabus, and cost less than half as much. So what does the exercise prove? It takes more than twice as much money to make a diesel that weighs more (hence not as nimble in handling) and delivers less power? Sounds about right, if that's the point of the exercise.
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    brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    Wanna place a gentlemen's bet?

    Louswei, keep in mind I have the first claim on any bet payout from Tagman, on that clean and powerful bluetec E class diesel for sale in CA from MB before the end of 2008 . . . seeing that MB is furiously backpadelling the whole project into lease only; i.e. nothing "for sale," and certainly nothing powerful as defined by supassing GS450h, which would be three-year old competing technology by then. Just want to warn you on the "lien" against the "title"; it's not free and clear, so to speak :-) I'm owed a two-year lease on a GS450H or LS600H first.
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    tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    The semantics here won't work. If the BlueTec comes to California consumers before the end of '08, then I win the bet.

    You were always the guy on this forum that talked up leasing as the best way to drive a vehicle anyway... so you're certainly not going to get away with disqualifying a lease!

    The point of the bet was always the timeline of the technoogy anyway, not the lease vs. buy attributes. If the BlueTec technology comes to California before the end of '08, (or was it '09? - LOL) you'll need to pay up!!! ;)

    TagMan
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    brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    In this case, it's not just a case of leasing vs. buying. The fact that the car company is offering leasing only and no buying means the car is still expeimental, and not really "clean" if it has to go back to the factory every 2-3 years for environmentally costly re-installs. In any case, the product doesn't even meet the "powerful" stipulation as defined by surpassing GS450h, which by then would be a three-year old competing car.

    So, yes, you are the one who needs to pay up before inviting any other bets.

    BTW, didn't we just establish a couple days ago that "BlueTec" is a marketing name only? that MB can apply it to any product they wish? The bet is on successful development of clean and powerful diesel, not some random marketing ploy.
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    tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    I'm speaking performance here, not price.

    And I haven't forgotten the RS4... I have deliberately limited the bet to those three contenders... that they would land in that order. If the RS4 were to wedge in between, that's fine, as it doesn't change the order with regards to the three vehicles we are talking about.

    So, based upon all measured performance, I still maintain that the M3 will take top honors (somewhere above the other two), the C-AMG will take middle ground (somewhere between the other two), and the IS-F will come in somewhere after the other two.

    Simple and straight forward. Are we on?

    TagMan
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    tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Ridiculous. If the BlueTec is legally offered in the State of California, and meets the emissions requirements, then it has achieved the technological goal... and you'll lose the bet.

    Me thinks you are already trying to find a rhetorical way to weasel out!!!! :surprise:

    TagMan
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    louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Price is a big factor in comparos, if 2 cars have big differences in performance then yes, price would probably be a non-factor. However, if 2 cars are very similar performance-wise then price can always be the make or break factor.

    I don't care about the M3 and RS4. If the IS-F finished ahead of the C63 in 3 comparos then I win. Likewise, if C63 finished ahead in 3 then you win. If you agree then we are on. Don't forget price is indeed a factor in many comparos.
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    brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    Ludicrous claim. MB can call whatever, even a plastic model car measuring an inch on a side, Bluetec. Why would anyone bet on or against something as whimsical as that? Stop making up nonsense. The bet was on clean and powerful diesel sedan from MB. "Clean" as defined by sellable in CA, and "powerful" as defined by surpassing GS450H, a three-year old competition by then. Both are quite low standards for being competitive. The bone of contention between us has always been that you think "clean" diesels are the best thing since sliced bread, and I think they are not competitive in a market place of clean and powerful gasoline engines, and even cleaner and more powerful hybrids. The proof is in the putting, i.e. substance, not some whimsical marketing name that has no connection to reality. I spelled out these terms of betting, both for "clean" and for "powerful," very clearly months ago; if you want to use the phrase "weasel out," please look in the mirror.
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    tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Well, my obvious concern and hesitation is that Lexus is typically a "value" player, and I am interested in the pure performance numbers themselves.

    Are you saying that you concede that the C-Class AMG will be the better performer, but the Lexus will only represent a better value?

    TagMan
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    tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    brightness - I think it is obvious that you and I do not agree on almost anything. My views and yours are typically 180 degrees apart.

    The best thing for me is that we post independently of each other.

    I recall your horrible fight with Dewey about BMW finances, and we have all witnessed your negative views regarding clean diesel for many months, as you and I can not agree on this topic at all.

    And now that it appears the BlueTec will come to California soon, you have decided it doesn't count.

    I prefer to be respectful, and therefore I suggest that from this point forward, we keep our interactive posts to a minimum, or preferably for me, not at all. Thanks.

    TagMan
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    brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    Wow, that's quite some grandstanding a few minutes after calling people "weasel."

    You can post whatever nonsense you wish, just don't get all upset when the nonsense is picked apart by others. It's nothing personal at all. If you want to be a conduit for some companies' propaganda, completely suspending your own critical thinking in the process, someone else unfortunately has to put in the time to do the critical thinking in order to put a damper to the pollution. By making posts in a forum, especially quoting outside links pretending it's worthwhile info, you are inviting comments.

    If you want to invite others into bets, the other party has the right to know the credibiity of his/her counterparty.

    "And now that it appears the BlueTec will come to California soon, you have decided it doesn't count. "

    You are rewriting history. I spelled it out clearly months ago that the bet is about the substance of "clean" and "powerful" diesel, which was what you were promising. I gave clear definition to what constitute "clean" and what constitute "powerful" in our bet, months ago . . . when you were still talking about "Bluetech," for crying out loud. It was not a bet on marketing phrase (which you'd still lose anyway, just on using the wrong name, but I'm not going to take cheap bet on someone else' mis-spelling, lord knows I mis-spell a lot). You were all excited about the coming of "clean" and "powerful" diesels . . . which are turning into mirages, just like I suspected.

    BTW, we do agree on some issues . . . I just don't buy the hypes.
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    tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Wow, that's quite some grandstanding a few minutes after calling people "weasel."

    saying you are trying to weasel out (with a wink) is not the same as calling you a weasel. I'm sorry if you see it that way, but of course, you and I ALWAYS see things opposite.

    Yes, you have the right to reply to my posts, but I'm going to end the interactive ping-pong with you.

    If you want to invite others into bets, the other party has the right to know the credibiity of his/her counterparty.

    As determined by YOU? LOL

    I have the right to bet as many bets with as many posters as I like. I don't need to screen them through YOU first. And I do not like the inference that my betting credibility is questionable... as you are implying. Seems rather "personal", don't you think?

    So... Mr. Brightness04, that's where things stand for me.

    Good luck to you.

    TagMan
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    louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Are you saying that you concede that the C-Class AMG will be the better performer, but the Lexus will only represent a better value?

    Nope.

    The only thing I am saying is the IS-F will finish ahead in the comparos more times than the C63. No more, no less. If you agree with the term then we are on, otherwise, the bet's off.
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    laurasdadalaurasdada Member Posts: 4,735
    But isn't the problem is that Jag is just not selling many cars? I haven't seen numbers, but I don't think the XJ is setting sales records (one reason for the aggresive '08 redo), I don't think making a baby XJ will be a reversal of fortune. I believe that is the reasoning behind the "radical departure" in styling for the XF, Jag needs to attract new buyers. Their core audience is fading away in one way or another.

    Although not as sleek/dynamic as the concept, I like the XF (from what little I've seen so far). Although that pop-up tranny "knob" certainly seems like a failure waiting to happen. What if it gets stuck in the down position? Is there a redundancy? Is this really a wheel that needed to be reinvented? We'll see...

    '21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)

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    brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    By inviting people to a bet, you are making a promise to pay up. The counterparty has the right to know how much faith you put into such promises in the past. Notice, I addressed the post to Lousewei, not you, in my follow-up to that bet invitation that you issued.
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    tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    OK, big guy... since you are a fellow Californian... seems I'll have to risk the "value" factor, but I'll take the chance. :)

    We'll just go with the editor's final picks. You are on. It'll add some fun to the comps. May the best performer truly win!! LOL.

    TagMan
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    louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Indeed.

    May the true "overall" performer win. :P

    By the way, what are we betting on?
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    cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Member Posts: 5,506
    Well done, tagman.

    I guess we'll get to hear the sound of one hand clapping -- should save me the (small) effort that I currently exert skipping certain posts.

    Stay well.
    '08 Acura TSX, '17 Subaru Forester
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    brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    And now that it appears the BlueTec will come to California soon, you have decided it doesn't count.

    Just to show you how wrong your accusation is, I actually took the time to dig up what I wrote nearly four months ago on May 4th, in post#1354:

    "I will only take the bet if it is in regard to a "clean and powerful diesel" as "Bluetec" originally promised. In other words, 300+hp in stock form (that's what GS450 delivers) and clean enough to sell in all 50 states in the sedan form under current emission regulations without special exemptions that may be introduced in the next 19 months; and sells more than 1000 copies in a month in the US so it's not a one-off car. It's pointless to talk about dirty diesels that are legal for trucks, or small 4-cyl diesels that can be made legal for cars without anything blue behind it, or engines that will require special exemption to be made legal. If I lose the bet, you can lease the car for two years at my expense, provided that if you lose you will pay me the full amount that I will incur for a two-year lease on a hybrid luxury car of my choice. "
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    tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    By the way, what are we betting on?

    LMAO!!

    OK, just for the record... I'm suggesting the new C-Class AMG will get 3 out of 5 nods over the IS-F, and you are suggesting the other way around... is that it?

    TagMan
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    louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Yeah, but that's not what I meant...

    What does the winner get? Bragging rights?
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    tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Stay well.

    Thanks for the post. I trust things are good in Mesa!!

    TM
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    tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Well... it started out as a casual gentlemen's bet. And, I'm not putting up the pink slip to the Carrera on this one.

    Bragging rights might not be too bad, but what did you have in mind?

    Maybe the loser of the bet has to make a few serious posts about the merits of the winning car. After all, that could be painful for me to post about the Lexus like that. :sick:

    TagMan
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    bristol2bristol2 Member Posts: 736
    Second that sentiment! Discretion is the better part of endless, directionless posted arguments....

    Brightness, I always enjoy your posts because they are WAY off everyone else's but in this case I think you have gone too far.
    By inviting people to a bet, you are making a promise to pay up. The counterparty has the right to know how much faith you put into such promises in the past.
    This is simply unnecessary, you are better than that.

    Tag, what are we going to do for entertainment when clean diesel tech arrives? Drive it I suppose!

    link title
    It seems that the stock market believes that clean diesel will be a success....
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    louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Maybe the loser of the bet has to make a few serious posts about the merits of the winning car.

    Okay, we are on...

    That plus the bragging rights. ;)
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    blkhemiblkhemi Member Posts: 1,717
    Which further drives my point: If this is just some downtrotted, lowly old "compact", then why all the fuss about it being "oh so slow"?

    It's in a realm all on it's own because there is nothing else like it. For good or for worse, I'll pick the former.
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    brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    Thanks for the perspective. Perhaps I do take things a little too seriously. It's rather astounding to me that anyone would put his or her credibility on the line for something he or she professes to believe in, going through rounds and rounds of debate on the issue, yet not having the confidence to stump up $25k (the cost of a 2yr lease of such a car) for a bet on the very same issue. Perhaps I'm just a little too used to people expressing their confidence on issues through putting up or shutting up; those making the right calls consistently get rich, and those consistently make the wrong calls get taken to the cleaners. Not much ink is needed besides book keeping.
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    blkhemiblkhemi Member Posts: 1,717
    Let me make sure I'm clear on this. This is all between the C63 and IS-F, correct?

    With Lexus already stating that the IS-F's power from the 5.0L V8 to be in the 400-420hp neck of the woods, I'm not quite so sure about it shutting out an AMG stormer.

    And with all of the latest promises from Lexus, and all of the failures to deliver on those promises that followed, I'm going to have to go with the C63. That is perhaps until the 500hp next-gen Audi RS4 and Caddy CTS-v gets here.

    Count me in.....
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    tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    It seems that the stock market believes that clean diesel will be a success....

    I agree. IMO, the entire alternative energy field will likely prove to be a huge success for these next immediate years.

    Thanks for the link.

    TagMan
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    tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Count me in.....

    Alright... the man from Long Island is in!!! :)

    TagMan
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    brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    The criticism (of the car, not the person) was elicited by the, IMHO of course, uncalled for profusion of praise from a fellow poster:

    "truly nice work from Brabus"
    "Spectacular job"

    What's so spectacular about a compact that does 0-62 in 7.8 seconds, especially one that wears the venerable tuner Brabus brand, which usually turn out cars in the sub-5.5 range.

    Can diesel do no wrong? Can Brabus do no wrong? Does everything from Brabus or everything that has a diesel engine deserve profuse praise? IMHO, 0-62 in 7.8 seconds in 2007 from a well-known tuner speaks very badly for both Diesel and Brabus.
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    blkhemiblkhemi Member Posts: 1,717
    Alright then Bright. Let's come to a slight consensus here.

    Yes there are some compacts out there that are faster than the Brabus. Yes, pre-2007 diesels for the most part should've been taken out to pasture and left for dead. And no, everything that has a diesel engine does not deserve enormous praise.

    I'm big enough to tell you I understand your sentiment and I respect it.

    However, there are other things besides the points of which you chose to build a case on. Brabus took a little ho-hum 4-cyl diesel and sparked some life into it. And in the midst of it all, nothing here was said about the suspension upgrades and interior tidbits that further separate it from lesser Euro-spec C-Classes.

    7.8 secs is not a spectacular time trap, but it is respectable for the car and smallish powertrain.

    Yes there are cars costing half as much and is faster, but be that as it may, there wouldn't be any upper end luxury cars if we all thought of it that way.
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    louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    blkhemi, keep in mind that this will be based on the final editors' pick rather than the simple 0-60 times, HP rating or things like that.

    By the way, what promises that Lexus had made and failed to deliver? You meant something like GS being a 5 series competitor and IS being a 3-series competitor?
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    brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    Thank you for keeping the discussion dispassionate. My perspective is that, 7.8 is really slow for a compact with a 2.2liter turbo-charged engine wearing a well known tuner's badge. I don't recall the link talked much about the handling (could be wrong on that), but anyhow, 3700+lbs is not going to make this compact a great handler either. So is there any other reason besides "Brabus" and "diesel" that would have elicited the original praise? Would a gasoline compact doing 7.8 have been praised as "spectacular" . . . I doubt it. For comparison, Mazdaspeed Mazda3 with a 2.3L turbo does 0-60 in 6.2 seconds! That's roughly a second and a half quicker. And it's a factory stock car, not from a specialty tuner.
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    louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Have to agree with brightness here, a tuner compact that has a 0-60 time of 7.8 seconds is just pathetic whether it's a diesel, gasoline or hybrid.

    Many of the aftermarket turbo Honda Civics with upgraded suspension can probably put this Brabus C into the hall of shame without any sweat...
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    tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    exactly right, hemi - the 0-60 isn't the only picture here.

    The refinement to the bodywork is outstanding, and that was actually my excitement... that's why I posted a picture, and not data. The car looks terrific to me. And, of course, the interior is supposedly tweaked beautifully as well.

    While not the only factor, the additional HP and torque is actually quite significant, from an additional percentage standpoint.

    I still think they did a superb job on the car... squeezing more power from a modest engine, tuning the suspension and exhaust note, and very nicely spicing up the exterior and interior.

    Sure beats almost every other small fuel-efficient car in the looks department... what a nice way to get great fuel economy, IMHO.

    I stand by my original post. :)

    TagMan
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    lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Is also on the C63 AMG. It has loads of power, and all of the preview drives have come to the same conclusion, this car (and the CLK Black Series) marks a new, handling focused direction for AMG. If Merc decides to do a C63 Black Series, watch out. The Lexus will be fast, but not fast enough. The steering and suspension tuning will be good, but not good enough. The IS-F is going to lose to the C63 and M3.

    I doubt the RS4 will be invited, isn't it already out of production? We'll just have to wait until the RS5 is ready to take on the winner of this contest.
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