By accessing this website, you acknowledge that Edmunds and its third party business partners may use cookies, pixels, and similar technologies to collect information about you and your interactions with the website as described in our
Privacy Statement, and you agree that your use of the website is subject to our
Visitor Agreement.
Comments
This is not your playground to bully people around on. You should not criticize someone's decisions using bad data and then cut-and-run when your bluff is exposed. This public forum is FAR bigger than YOU and everyone else deserves access to truthful and accurate information that is clear from the smear of spin and BS.
Let us see if this is really the "END OF [THE] DISCUSSION!"
If you do not... let me know, and I'll try to explain it more clearly.
TagMan
That is getting awfully close to the price of the Audi TT and the BMW 3-series, and not too terribly far from the price of a Porsche Boxster. I would get the loaded S550 and get one of these vehicles as a 2nd vehicle instead of paying that much more for the S600.
Is WHAT worth 36K?
TagMan
It's no secret that I do tend to hang in the German camp, but I honestly try to be as objective as possible, and give all credit where it is due... whether Japanese, British, or even Korean.
No worries, though. It's all cool.
TagMan
The very same thing can be said about purchasing a V12 luxury sedan over a comparable V8 sedan for most people.
Great post! Thanks for setting the record straight. It is amazing....
It just doesn't matter. Some how, some way, you will be proven unrightous and and the villain of the thread for simply stating the car is utterly pointless.
No record has been set straight and you were NEVER villainized for simply stating the car is utterly pointless. You were criticized for using exaggeration and misinformation in your negative posts regarding the LS 600hL. I do not care if you think the LS 600hL is the WORST car that has ever been produced in the history of mankind; you are most certainly entitled to such an opinion without criticism from others for holding such a view. What I have a problem with is your careless posting of inaccurate quantitative data in regards to the LS 600hL on this public forum. Whether we are talking about price differentials, standard features and option availabilities, 0-60 acceleration times, or EPA miles per gallon, you have posted a breathtaking amount of misinformation about the LS 600hL and used the best figures possible for your favored brands to make them look better by comparison.
Just be honest and upfront about your dislike for Lexus, in general, and the LS 600hL, in particular; this would be far more respectable. Don't attempt to cloak these sentiments in fudged quantitative data, because it really is not necessary and is a disservice to other members and the general viewing public.
[Feel free to post "LEXUS SUCKS!" in your profile (although this will be viewed as sophomoric and unfit for an adult)].
I nearly hate Mercedes-Benz as a company and really do not like the exterior or the interior of the S550, but I steadfastly refuse to manipulate quantitative data to make Mercede-Benz or the S550 look bad.
There is an easily perceivable difference between a Mercedes V8 and a Mercedes bi-turbo V12. This is understood for many years by many people.
In contrast to this is the perception of a V8 and a V8 married to some electric motors and a bunch of trunk-stealing batteries.
The typical individual only needs to use his common sense and instincts to be under the impression that the 12-cylinder is going to kick some serious butt.
In contrast to this is the perception of a V8 with some electric motors. There is no typical or historic perception or instincts. To many, it's going to be a freakin contraption cloaked in mystery... it will take some educating and analysys to begin to understand the benefit that might be associated with such a contraption.
$36K(+/-) to get a biturbo v12 is a tangible that is understood.
$xxK to get electric motors and batteries is not as tangible and is not as understood. It raises questions... and it appears (regardless of whether or not it is the case)that the same Lexus V8 without the extra fat achieves nearly the same result.
In contrast, the Mercedes V8 is not perceived to get the same result as the biturbo V12. That biturbo v12 is the real deal... no sliderule, technical analysis, or clipboard necessary to understand it.
That's the common sense I'm talking about. Smack in the face of "real" benefits to the V8 hybrid, it's just plain easier and more natural to understand that a V12 is going to kick the butt of a V8. It's not so easy to understand or natural to expect what those battery-powered motors are going to do, especially when the engine is still only a V8.
From a perceptual perspective, the 12 cylinder wins all day, every day.
BTW, hybrids are generally perceived by the masses in terms of boosting fuel economy, regardless of other truthful benefits. It's the way the public sees them, and the way they buy them. Performance may be a potential gain, but it's not the mass perception out there by any means. If anything, hybrids are viewed as weak, not strong. More reason to pay for a 12 cylinder rather than a V8 hybrid.
I sure hope you are getting this. Because even if there are legitimate arguments to support the effort of an LS600hL, there are perceptual roadblocks that will ultimately need to be overcome... namely, that it goes against common sense as we know it.
TagMan
Gotta love your objectivity. By the way, just when did you drive one of these contraptions that you are so familiar with?
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Please don't twist my words. If clarification is needed here, my meaning was that there are many folks who have no familiarity with electric motors attached to a V8, and that it can be perceived more as a contraption when contrasted to a more typical engine configuaration, specifically a V12 in this case.
Gosh, it's a shame when you do this... cause you know that I was distinguishing the perceptual difference between familiar engines and newfound technology.
Are you stirring the pot just a bit? You've admitted to doing it before, so I think it's darned reasonable for me to ask.
C'mon... fess up!!
TagMan
I have not attempted to make the case that the LS 600hL is actually worth the premium over the LS 460L because I do not believe this to be true, NOR do I believe that any of German V12 sedans are worth the premiums over their V8 counterparts. However, if an individual insists on purchasing the ultimate flagship of a brand, the LS 600hL competes very well with the other range-topping sedans in its class - the A8L W12, 760Li, and the S600.
I agree that it will take more time to educate the public, but the LS 600hL has barely entered the marketplace and it simply needs time to prove itself - it is simply to early to make snap judgements on the viability of the LS 600hL.
you could have saved significantly more money by buying a upcoming front wheel drive mini Bimmer instead of your VW GTI. This new BMW will sell for less money than a Mini Cooper or a VW GTI. If the 1 series is a nostalgic tribute to the BMW 2002 then I guess this new mini BMW will be a nostalgic tribute to the BMW Isetta( at least based on the rendering below it does not look like an Isetta)
Personally I think I'd prefer to pay the extra $$$ and own a VW GTI or a Mini Cooper S. Small is beautiful but I think BMW is pushing the envelope a bit too far with this idea especially since such a mini BMW will cannibalize Mini Cooper sales.
A mini BMW will only be successful if it offers a distinctive technology. If it was a one of a kind EV or a cheap hybrid diesel then maybe just maybe this car will sell.
link title
There have been numerous reports pertaining to the possibility of BMW building a new model positioned below the 1-series hatch that’ll share its underpinnings with the current Mini. Not only would the car be the first FWD BMW, it would also be cheapest as it’s rumored to cost less than the aforementioned Mini.
Part of the reason for BMW considering such a model is the mounting environmental awareness that’s spreading across Europe. A new, low-emissions minicar would help reduce BMW’s fleet average emissions levels in light of the new CO2 standards being pushed by the EU and it’d also give it a better standing against similar superminis being developed by rival brand Audi and to a less extent VW.
Though we highly doubt BMW designers would style the car after the striking Concept CS as this rendering suggests, any model wearing the Propeller Badge would likely feature the trademark kidney grille. According to earlier reports, development has been carried out on the new model although final production plans are yet to be confirmed.
If given the go-ahead, production would likely be outsourced to Magna Steyr but the engines and drivetrain would be built by BMW at plants in Germany. How the new model will live up to the ‘Ultimate Driving Machine’ ethos, however, is anyone’s guess.
You cant.
There is no rational argument for such emotional toys. Exclusivity, novelty (a good case for for the LS600hL) and excesive oomph(a good case for MB V12s) is the rationale for such cars and such rationales are not rational at all.
Nobody can win a logical argument for choosing the cars above just as no married man can make a logical argument for pursuing a desirable temptress .
In the meantime, the GTI really is a surprising amount of fun to drive, yet quite practical at the same time. Check out this article on the car, and I think you will understand. It's about the '07 four-door, but mine is one of the first '08s, but there are only a few minor changes: I really think you'll like this... but let me know what you really think...
link title
TagMan
TagMan
I would like to see some inside photos of your new ride. The link you posted had a lot of photos but no interior shots.
I am thinking of getting a small P.U. IMO that would be a perfect vehicle for Hyundai to sell here. Small, simple, diesel engine.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Gosh, houdini, it's very difficult to enter the pickup market, as there are such dominant players. Beyond that, a pickup is perceived as a vehicle with heavy-duty components. Do you think Hyundai could pull it off?
Personally, I doubt they will enter that market at all, but who knows?
But, that aside, if you wait, the regular players will be offering diesel-powered light duty pickups in upcoming model years. Otherwise, if you can't wait, for a small pickup, Toyota is hard to beat... although they are a bit pricier than others.
But I must add that the Ford Ranger is an absolute die-hard small pickup. Many individuals and companies use them and they are absolutely rock solid. My company has used a Ford Ranger to deliver final print materials to clients for many years, and it has never so much as had a single hiccup. Perfect track record... and white of course.
Anyway, good luck. Have you checked any of them out yet?
TagMan
TagMan
Anyway, enjoy!
As far as the Hyundai P.U., I did not mean for them to jump into the full fledged P.U. wars here.
I was thinking more along the lines of what Honda has done with the Ridgeline, only smaller. Very light duty, simple and inexpensive. Maybe about the size of the last gen. Tacoma and with a small, fuel sipping diesel engine and manual trans.
Target suburbanites who want to feel like country gentlemen and haul mulch and stone, etc. for their landscaping or haul the occasional piece of furniture. I bet they could sell a ton of them.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
I'd replace the company's Ranger with one! So... you might be right!
TagMan
Man, you've got a good eye. It's incredibly comfortable and the steering wheel has got a terrific feel... and in it's own right, it's on a par with any steering wheel I've ever used... even including the Porsche.
As you apparently can appreciate, the steering wheel is clearly designed for grip, comfort, and serious performance... and it does all with near perfection.
I took the car out for a ride yesterday evening, and the car delivered more fun, performance, comfort, and convenience than I would have ever expected. It is truly deserving of its original iconic name "pocket rocket".
BTW, when I first drove it home, my wife saw it and had the funniest expression I'd seen in years... like "what the hell is this?" I offered her to drive it, and she said, "Why would I want to do that?" So... it would seem that I am going to be lucky enough to know that she'll leave it alone!
I took my 8-year old son for a ride, and let's just say that he "understands".
TagMan
yeah... it's really loaded with the goodies. To answer your question on the tranny...
DSG, 6-speed tiptronic, with "Launch Control", sport mode, ESP that can be turned off, and paddle shifters.
BTW, this is a great configuration, and is both faster and more fuel-efficient... and loads of fun, as paddle-shifting takes only 2/10ths of a second, according to the spec.
TagMan
I haven't really looked at anything yet, just sort of day dreaming.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Looks like the fully-loaded EX V-6 again this time.
If there isn't a diesel option in the new Accord's first MY, at least this one will have VCM on the V6, able to switch to four or three cylinders at any time. That won't be enough for diesel fuel economy, but it should still be good for 32mpg+ on the highway.
Well, I knew that if I were to answer some of those questions from those fellow posters... there would likely be a jab from atlas7!! :P
I suppose you will continue to jab the rest of the posters for discussing the Honda Accord?
TagMan
The switchable V6 sounds nice. 26 mpg overall on regular fuel should be easily obtainable. I plan on sitting in one as soon as it comes out on September 12th, with test drives to follow if I like it.
Patrick Bedard, reviewing the new Accord sedan in the October issue of C&D feels its increased length (almost 5" longer than a Camry) caters more to the older set. The average age of an Accord buyer is 50. Taking the coupe and V4 sedans out of the statistics, I wouldn't be surprised if the average Accord V6 sedan buyer was actually closer to 60.
He concluded his review calling the new Accord sedan, "32, going on 64."
I don't know if the thin wood strip in the EX-L V6 is genuine or not. Looks real to me in the photos. Nicer than that crap in the MDX. Imagine, real wood in an Accord. Fake wood in an Acura MDX. Is that possible? Nah! The Accord wood has to be fake!
If I like it, there just may be a Honda Accord EX-L V6 in my future next summer.
Doing so would produce for me an exact offset:
what I lose in prestige, I gain in excellent decision-making. :shades:
TagMan
Looks like real wood to me in the new Accord V6 EX-L. But, I'm sure you are right. Probably a nice plastic imitation.
I will visit a Honda dealer as soon as it's out (September 12th) and sit in one to check the seats and interior, especially that thin wood strip. :surprise:
From the preliminary write-ups, it looks like Honda did a nice job with the new EX-6 sedan.
I hope they improved the brakes. The 2007 Accord takes about 15 feet more to stop from 60mph on dry pavement than the 545i. When one is used to BMW, Porsche and Infiniti brakes, meaning accustomed to the very best ... one is easily disappointed driving other vehicles.
But, I am willing to give a 2008 Accord V6 EX-L a complete test drive or two if I like the interior and seats, which for me is always a really big "IF". I, of course, will be bringing an open mind and a closed wallet.
I also have a deep respect for Honda as a company as well.
In fact, IIRC, they are the number 1 engine supplier in the world.
Good luck with your test drive. Better lock the wallet in the safe.
TagMan
I believe an EX-L V6 Accord for around $24-25k is a fantastic bargain.
Seems other folks posting here like the V6 EX-L Accord too; Blkhemi, to name one.
I only want to sit in one when it first comes out. If I like it, the test drives will follow.
As soon as the NFL Bucs are well-entrenched in last place, I will know it's time for the first test drive. Looks like the fourth week in September.
A big Accord allows Honda to compete with both Camry\Avalon and Altima\Maxima. It's not a bad strategy. It also leaves room for a larger Civic now that the Fit is their entry level car.
I don't know of any other car in the family sedan category that uses real wood besides the Passat, so I seriously doubt the stuff in the new Accord is real. What they did correctly with this interior though is use just enough "wood" trim to give a slightly upscale flair, without over-emphasizing it to the point where it looks cheesy. The MDX has enormous strips of the plastic junk that just scream FAKE!!!
It is impressive that the new Accord's interior blows everything that Acura had just a few years ago out of the water. I actually think its nicer than the current TSX and TL.
Honda brakes generally are not great, but the money saved v. a BMW would go a long way towards a set of Brembos to replace the stock rotors and calipers.
I agree. Honda uses a thin little wooden strip- just enough to make it look smart; not that awful in your face stuff found in the MDX.
And continuing your comparison of the Accord to the TL - the TL has a wider turning circle than the Accord!
One wonders, is there any communication at all between Acura and Honda?
Genuine wood in the 2008 Accord V6 EX-L would provide a conclusive answer to that question.
Another question ... will the salesperson I speak to actually know whether the wood is real?
When looking at both Acura and Honda vehicles, the conclusion is that the Honda is the more compelling choice.
In contrast, however, when looking at both Toyota and Lexus vehicles, the Lexus is the more compelling vehicle.
That's one of the reasons Acura is no where near Lexus, IMO.
TagMan
Just kidding, now that the RX350 is serving its role as the family hauler, I am in the mode to replace the GS. A side from looking at the usual suspects MBs, BMWs, Accuras and Infinitis, I found myself checking out the Camry Hybrid as well. The only problem is that a couple of Toyota dealers near my house always sold their monthly allotments BEFORE they arrived from the factory. Maybe, I will check out the new Accord as well.
As I was driving the two hundred miles today, I was boxed in with a couple of bmw 5s...As the miles rolled by I thought the rear design isn`t all that bad, and wish you were driving the one in front to me, as we then would have `gotten going`...I have pretty much decide that my driving is really very little around town and mostly on the I...There really is no need at this point in life to get a extra powerful car, and what I think `will do` is a comfortable riding, attractive interior and really good seats...The milage I get is around twenty seven at eighty mostly, so there is really no big gas savings anywhere I look.. My wife`s bmw 5 station wagon is just as comfortable as my audi, and probably about as quiet, although there are more quiet cars out there...Unfortunately the lease deals may not be out there, if Dewey or Brightness are anywhere near correct ...I chatted with a Porsche owner who was parked next to me--way over in a corner of the large parking lot--and it was a pleasure to feel his pride of ownership--I hope what I get next will enable me to have that pride of ownership, as you and TagMan have so well expressed, but at this point I doubt it, as it is foolish to get a car that does more than I need...i`l probably get the bmw:) Tony
As for the Bangle 5 Series, seems everyone else is copying it. No coincidence that the side and rear of the new Honda Accord resemble it.
I agree with you. Most of my driving these days is also around town or long highway stints-very few bobsled routes. When I really need the 545i, like in Hana, Hawaii, I don't have it!
I have to face the fact that with the 545i and with any BMW, for that matter, I simply will never truly get my money's worth. I have been thrilled by the 545i's performance, especially recently, when I have been trying some very aggressive moves. However, since the more you throw at it, the better it gets, I will never know the true potential of this vehicle. I've reached the point where I can go no further even though the vehicle practically begs me to. What I have achieved with this vehicle nevertheless, has been thrilling. I am prepared to call this vehicle a masterpiece, considering its handling prowess relative to its size.
I have come to the reality that my next vehicle will most likely be a bit more conservative. I have achieved all I can achieve with BMW vehicles.
There are no good deals on BMW wagons for leasing. They want to sell them. They don't want them back in 2-3 years since there isn't a big market for them. However, one can probably negotiate a big discount from MSRP for purchase.
I have to say, Tony, I have been noticing more and more wagons on the highway lately. People are finally smartening up. Not that much "S" in SUVs.
Folks who purchase a Cayenne and think they are driving a genuine Porsche usually have no idea! (unless it's their second Porsche).
A BMW 535xi wagon will run rings around any BMW X5.
Honda Accord? What is going on in this place? What's the next topic, Riding Lawn Mowers?:)
Sounds like you might need a Lexus ES350, or an Audi A3 or A4, BMW 3-Series, Honda Accord, possibly an Infiniti, or the latest Mercedes C-Class.
Whatever it is, good luck!!
TagMan
Why?
Because I am fed up with all my traffic tickets. Today again I got a speeding ticket and this one was the nastiest one I ever got.
Within Ontario there will soon be a law that will immediately suspend the licence of all drivers driving 30 MPH over speed limit.(suspension for 1 week with a hefty fine) I dread to think of the insurance premiums and the legal consequences if a person is caught a second time speeding over 30 MPH.
I am doomed! :sick:
IMO driving BMWs like a timid law abiding citizen is senseless. I never ever got a speeding ticket driving underpowered car rentals like a Chrysler Sebring, Hyundai Sonata , Citroen Xsara or my old Heirloom car (83 MB300D) because I have no desire to drive such cars in a speedy manner. So in order to avoid accruing more violation points at my frequently visited traffic court(I am a familiar face over there) I choose instead at some future date to replace my BMW with the most gutless car available. :lemon:
The vigilant roadside patrol tyranny within my vicinity really sucks :mad:
But facts are facts. And that is that.
Speaking of, will you please point out to me where I said that I hate Lexus as a company?
I admire the RX for continuing to hold it's own against all of the newcomers. I respect the 460 and 460L with light options as it still represents one of the best deals going. And even though it is as old as grandma, I still respect the LX470 for it's capability and overall refinement.
So by those statements, I can't speak volumes for those cars and hate the company that makes them. Please stop with this witch hunt of a crusade as it really ridiculous.
And imagine driving it in Orlando. And if you think Orlando patrol cops are bad you aint seen the battallion of patrol cops in my neighborhood.
Blkhemi,
the witch hunt in the Crucibles was Mickey Mouse compared to the trial I went through a few weeks ago after erroneously posting negative July Lexus sales :surprise:
I respect Honda too. But what on earth are they doing to the Accord's size. Every new model the car just gets bigger and bigger and the customers get older and older.
Who is Honda trying to convince anyways? Former Crown Victoria drivers?
And indeed you have described the problem.
We buy or lease these powerful, expensive vehicles which beg to be driven enthusiastically and we are made to feel like criminals on those rare occasions when we do throw caution to the wind.
Why have 'em, if we can't enjoy 'em?
I do believe I will take the 545i to a track before I am done. I must experience what this vehicle is truly capable of.