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Comments
I was in Alaska & the Yukon a month ago (Skagway, Haines, Chicken, Dawson City) & loved it. Hope you enjoyed it as much. I was driving a fun car & had good weather. What more could be asked?
It isn`t you...For some reason Lexus has always been like this, except for the very beginning....If thay are talking about 2010 or later, then just think how dated even this simple design would look? I imagine when you drive your Jag, you appreciate the quiet and comfortable ride which is so different than the Porsche..Then look forward to the Porsche...I can easily see the enjoyment of the ls460 when you just want a comfortable, quiet ride --particularly on rough roads
but I think Lexus will always be just that, and I have given up on them really ever changing..Tony
TagMan
So... my '08 GTI will be at the dealership in about one more hour, and then it's mine... at least until a desireable diesel SUV finally shows up here in California.
I was really surprised at how much fun the GTI is to drive... and how much room there is inside, front and rear, and cargo space.
Anyway, very impulsive, I admit, but that's the way I do things sometimes. BTW, I'm not sure of the name of the color, but it's that gun-metal gray metallic color.
Unless something goes wrong, it should be mine later this afternoon.
So, when I'm not having fun in the Carrera, hopefully, I'll be having fun in the GTI.
TagMan
That get's to the point of my post and why I think a BMW is the best vehicle for your current situation, regardless of any potential reliability problems.
As far as the Lexus LS, it has had the distinction (in CR) of being the most reliable AND the most satisfying to its owners for quite some time (compared to other large luxury sedans). According to the 2006 CR customer satisfaction survey, none of the LS's competitors (A8,7, S-Class) could entice even 80% of its owners to definitely purchase that same vehicle again. By contrast, 88% of LS owners would purchase their vehicles again, and 89% of Corvette owners would do the same. The most satisfying vehicle from the CR survey is the Toyota Prius at 92% for the 4th consecutive year.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
I can only provide a general link for you to plug in the vehicle(s) of your choice, but 2008 fuel economy numbers are as follows:
link title
Year & Model City/Highway/Combined Drive
2008 Lexus LS600hL 20/22/21 AWD
2007 Audi A8L W12 13/19/15 AWD
2007 BMW 760Li 13/20/15 RWD
2007 Mercedes-Benz S600 11/17/13 RWD
You most certainly used one of the worst 0-60 times that you could find for the LS600hL, because C&D managed 5.4 seconds in their testing:
link title
Car and Driver was not able to achieve the 4.9 second time that you listed for the A8, but it did achieved 5.1 seconds:
link title
If I simply wanted to cherry-pick 0-60 times to make a competitive vehicle look bad, I could use the review from Edmunds.com itself; the testers were only able to manage a 0-60 time of 5.8 seconds for the A8L W12, 0.10 seconds SLOWER than the figure you posted for the LS 600hL:
link title
The 0-60 time of the LS 600hL is competitive with the A8L W12, the only other regular-production AWD V12 luxury sedan on the U.S. market, yet the LS 600hL gets a whopping 6 additional miles per gallon in combined city/highway driving versus the A8L W12.
The base price for the LS 600hL is $104,000 vs. $120,100 for the A8L W12, the next lowest-priced competitor. This represents a difference of $16,100 - quite a significant sum. The prices and links are below:
Lexus LS 600hL @ $104,000
link title
Audi A8L W12 @ $120,100
link title
BMW 760Li @ $122,600
link title
Mercedes-Benz S600 @ $144,200 (with subtraction of destination charge)
link title
Overall, the LS600hL clearly TROUNCES the competition in the fuel economy department, offers competitive 0-60 times, AND significantly undercuts them all in price.
That is a very enlightening post, at least for me. I was reading the posts on this board and there was much bashing of the LS600hl. I thought the car was a techno marvel, but it also has some very impressive numbers as you pointed out. Seems the LS600hl competes very well with the V-12's, it's gas numbers trounce the V-12's, and the performance numbers are in range with the competition. Seems like quite a car.
The VW GTI must be a hoot to drive. Sometimes I yearn for a much smaller car than what I own right now . IMO smaller is better assuming you dont need the space.
Your interpretation is dead wrong.
The price range of BMW shares this past month were in a very tight range between 43 to 44 Euros. NOPE it did not drop as much this month as Japanese auto stocks did this month.
2) European carmakers have been on the forefront of taking advantage of the cheap Yen policy. BMW for example has been issuing large amounts of Yen-denominated bonds. Now it's facing a 10% jump in yen obligations in a week while the relending of the borrowed money is only collecting less than 3% in a year from American lessees.
Your assertion above is not at all applicable to BMW since their yen-denominated debt issuance is a fraction of 1 percent. Nor do I know another single German auto maker that has a load of Japanese denominated debt.
Here's a link of BMW's debt issuance for year ended 2006--Page 101 :
link title
Oh yeah! But, if the R32 (250 hp 6 cyl, and all-wheel drive) had been available with 4 doors, I'd have snatched it up... but with kids, having 4 doors was a no-compromise requirement this time... so I went with the GTI (still not too bad w/ 200 HP turbo FSI engine, and 6-speed DSG w/ paddles).
Also, a very generous and surprising amount of room inside... and that was part of the point. I don't want to load all the dirty sports gear in the Porsche, but it will be easy to shove it in the back of the GTI.
Hopefully, I'll get lucky on the questionable reliability. LOL.
I'll have to check and see where this "German" car was actually assembled.
TagMan
No need to try to find it.
The proof does not have to be written by anyone. Just look at Toyota's actions. Toyota would not be selling a LS600h if their marketing research had indicated that buyers would not be willing to pay more than the last generation LS.
My prior post was more tongue-in-cheek than anything else.
Please remember to fill out that Consumers Report Survey this upcoming year.
1. Here is the chart for BMW stock:
http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=BMW.DE&t=3m
Obviously, the month of worldwide financial market turmoil started in mid-July. BMW stock dropped from around 50 Euro to about 43-44 Euro in that month-long time span, and I was being charitable and described it as dropping from 50 to 44.
2. Your assertion above is not at all applicable to BMW since their yen-denominated debt issuance is a fraction of 1 percent. Nor do I know another single German auto maker that has a load of Japanese denominated debt. Here's a link of BMW's debt issuance for year ended 2006--Page 101
Check that link of yours again. The per centage number on page 101 is not per centage of total debt, but the nominal interest rate. That's the primary problem with Yen-carry trade unwinding: borrowing at sub-1% in Yen, and turn around to lend at 3% in US$ is fine, until Yen appreciates 10% in a week, completely wiping out the 2.5% arbitrarge that would have been earned in a year, and then some, a lot of "some." It's a stampede out a doorway that is too narrow.
Quite surprising how a supposedly licensed and practicing CPA would have missed both points that are essentially the focus of world business news in the last couple months.
So why did you write one? Shouldn't you be out enjoying your GTI? btw, can I have your porsche convertible now that you find something else more fun? :-)
Edit: I guess you only stand behind comments that are too old to be deleted by yourself :-)
LOL,
One suggestion: Please look at the chart. This chart is for 3 month not 1 month :surprise:
Check that link of yours again. The per centage number on page 101 is not per centage of total debt denominated in that currency, but the nominal interest rate. That's the whole problem with Yen-carry trade: borrowing at sub-1% in Yen, and turn around to lend at 3% in US$ is fine, until Yen appreciates 10% in a week, completely wiping out the 2.5% arbitrarge that would have been earned in a year, and then some, a lot of "some."
Total Japan Yen bonds outstanding is 234.45 Billion Yen
Converted into Euros (157.7 as of today--I dont have time to look up the exchange rate used in 06 Financial Statements)
Total BMW Japanese Bonds in Euro is 1.49 Billion
Total BMW Bonds =_16.4 Billion
Total percentage of Japanese bonds outstanding is about only 9 percent.
Yes I did do a calculation error--surprise, surprise this is not the first time I ever did a calculation error.(I think even Einstein did some calculation errors)
But despite my calculation error BMW Yen Debt is still insignificant especially if you add in the Commercial Paper(Yen Debt =NIL) and Bank Debt.
Quite surprising how a supposedly licensed and practicing CPA would have missed both points that are essentially the focus of world business news in the last couple months.
No I am not a CPA. I am a CA (Chartered Accountant) with a CFA designation. And currently I am not a practicing accountant but in investments. Ofcourse if I was a CPA I would have never ever have done this most horrific calculation error.. :shades:
The month of financial market decline worldwide started in mid-July, in case you need a suggestion.
33% is a huge difference from "a fraction of one percent." (BTW, I applaud your frankness in admitting the earlier mistake). 33% of all bond issuance being in Yen is a huge number for a company whose financial divisions are practically all in Europe and the US. There isn't even a separately listed Japan-based financial division among the half dozen BMW financial divisions in that report. BMW simply got caught on Yen carry-trade speculation as the door closed, just like I suggested that they would months ago. It's only going to get worse. Everyone leaning on that trade is trying to unwind, and there is a complete lack of counter-party. 10% loss on 1.5 billion euro-equivalent Yen-denominated debt due to carry-trade goig bad is still 150 million euro loss! or roughly 200 million dollars! That's a lot of cars hitting the wall . . . roughly 10 thousand 3-series cars got dumped for nothing.
Isn't CA the Canadian equivalent of US CPA designation?
Edit: just saw that you changed the number from 33% to 9% after my reply. While I'm not inclined to verify your math here, suffice to say that it's still a very large number for a company that has no report list-worthy financial service division in Japan. It was a clear case of financial speculation that went bad.
you fell for my other mistake.
I am honestly shocked that you were not able to catch it! And no I am not going to question you on what profession you are in. :P
The Total Bond Debt is 16.4 Billion. The 4 Billion figure I had quoted are Bonds that are due within a year.
In otherwords Japanese debt is only a single digit percentage in terms of total BMW debt.
So my conclusion is in fact CORRECT--Japanese denominated debt is not a significant portion of BMW's debts.
In fact Japanese debt is almost insignificant if you consider that BMW has issued no commercial paper in yen and has no Yen denominated bank debt.
Nope that is not the case at all. Please refer to my last post.
Again that is not applicable to BMW. Please refer to post 5104.
In factual numbers, $200 million loss (real liability increase, not just paper stock price loss) in one week is huge for BMW, like, completely wiping out profit for the time, and then some, a lot of "some." For crying out loud, BMW bought the Rolls-Royce brand for only about $50 million.
Some see the Hybrids as such a bargain and a technological advance, but myself along with others(including one Lexus owner) see it otherwise.
If someone wanted to pay 105k(before any options) for a car with an econonmy sized trunk, 600 pounds heavier, and much thirstier on the highway over the standard 460L and get ripped off 40k in the process(how much hybrid time does it take to recoup that cost- where is that all to important value and bargain), then so be it. Precious? Marvel of Engineering? Yeah...
Lexus knows this car is not going to appeal to very many people, hence it's 2k only allottment. I don't recall them having a problem filling any orders and selling them at the dealership as they're plentiful. Smart on their part, IMO.
Interesting choice, tag. Just curious, why didn't you go for an A3 2.0T or 3.2?
Anyone, Congrats my man!! What color? Did you give the axe to the FJ?
Regards,
Jose
It appears that you have made a concerted effort to overlook the difference in equipment levels and pricing of the LS 460L and the LS 600hL to come to your erroneous conclusions, thereby misinforming our fellow members and other interested parties that anonymously view these forums to gather data for their future car purchase decisions. This is why I take the willful posting of exaggerated information and outright misinformation so very seriously; however, an honest mistake can easily be overlooked if the mistake is acknowledged by the person that made the post in question.
As I have previously stated, the LS 600hL comes STANDARD with ALL-WHEEL DRIVE, a feature that is not currently available on the LS 460L at any price. This feature adds hundreds of pounds to the weight of the LS and, consequently, hurts the projected fuel economy available in the 600hL (versus a 600hL without standard AWD). All-wheel drive is also expensive and must be subtracted from any purported "hybrid premium" that is calculated; unfortunately, neither one of us knows how much Lexus would charge for this feature if it were available on the LS460L. The LS 600hL also includes several trim enhancements, such as the full-leather dash and LED low-beam headlights that are both unavailable on the LS 460L at any price.
Your contention that the LS 600hL is $40,000 more than the LS 460L is COMPLETELY INCORRECT. There is only a $42,500 spread between the base LS 600hL and the base LS 460 SHORT-WHEELBASE model (the LS 460 starts at $61,500 vs. $104,700 for the LS 600hL). The LS 600hL is a LONG-WHEELBASE model and can only be compared with the LS 460L that starts at $71,500; this reduces the difference to $32,500 WITHOUT any equipment adjustments. The LS 600hL comes standard with the Mark Levinson sound system (a $2530 stand-alone option on the LS 460L), as well as several features that are part of some of the option packages that are available on the LS 460L. A few of these features include: a larger 19" tire and wheel package, upgraded semi-aniline leather, alcantara headliner, and an adaptive variable air suspension (AVS) with variable gear ratio steering (VGRS) - a $2120 stand-alone option on the LS 460L. We are already down to $27,850 ($32500-$2530-$2120) WITHOUT accounting for the AWD, 19" wheels/tires, upgraded leather, alcantara headliner, leather-covered dashboard, LED headlights, and any other trim enhancements found standard on the LS 600hl; this is $12,150 less than you have suggested and that margin will only expand as more equipment pricing data becomes available.
The LS 600hL is also notably quieter than the LS460L and any of its competitors, plus is get 2 more miles per gallon versus the LS 460L. The LS 460L gets 16/24/19 city/highway/combined versus 20/22/21 for the LS 600hL. The LS 460L only gets 2 MPG more on the highway versus the LS 600hL, while the LS 600hL gets 4 MPG more in the city than the LS 460L. Your suggestion that a 2 MPG difference makes the LS 600hL "much thirstier on the highway over the standard 460L" further demonstrates the extensive use of exaggeration that litters your post.
It is quite humorous that you have attempted to deride the value equation of purchasing the LS 600hL over the LS 460L when you recently owned a Mercedes S600. I priced a S550 out with every single factory option available and only came up with $114,045 (including the $1,300 gas-guzzler tax that no Lexus LS is subject to). The S600 maxes out at $149,610 with its 2 factory options (including a $3000 gas-guzzler tax). If the S550 is such a marvelous vehicle (as you have implied numerous times) than how could the S600 possibly be worth $35,565 more than a S550 that is ALMOST identically equipped except for the larger V-12 engine and a few trim differences? Saving 9/10ths of a second in 0-60 acceleration time (the S550 is listed at 5.4 on the MBUSA website) while guzzling more gas certainly is not worth such a hefty premium over the S550 when there is little opportunity to accelerate from 0-60 on American roads.
The opening page for the S600 states that the vehicle comes with virtually all available options standard (except for the aformentioned 2) and does not actually mention any features or trim differences that are found exclusively on the S600 versus the S550.
link title
[The 0-60 is also listed as 4.5 seconds, which differs from the 4.2 seconds that you previously posted]
Please provide us with any other differences between the S600 and S550 so that $35,565 premium can also be adjusted downwards. It sounds more like you are the one that got "ripped off [nearly] 40k in the process."
Wrong :mad:
There is no real liability because all those bonds do not mature until many years hence. The real foreign exchange affect will happen when the bond matures.
Plus the real affect will be minimal since their exposure to Yen is minimal.
Yen carry-trade unwind fiasco" was in reference to what happened in the world financial markets in mid July, not BMW specificly
I posted that article because it relates to Japanese auto makers not BMW.
Who was it that introduced BMW into this argument :confuse:
It wasn't me.
If you cannot admit your mistakes as I had pointed out that is your choice.
But I have no desire to continue with this time consuming drivel.
Discussion Ended!
:mad:
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
History proves that's the way it ALWAYS goes... thus the reason I have decided to no longer become engaged into those protracted exchanges that use biased information and that turn into futile arguments and ultimately personal jabs.
You have made a good choice.
TagMan
LG & Blkhemi - The A3 would have been a great choice! No doubt about it! And in a head-to-head comparo, I'd prefer it... but the reason I went for the GTI is as follows...
- I personally know the owners of the VW dealership, and they are great guys... and thus the GTI price was near invoice, as well as getting a little extra on the FJ trade-in from a friend of his.
- The main goal for me was to get a vehicle to replace the FJ Cruiser until something better shows up in the marketplace... likely a diesel-powered small SUV.
- I did not want to come up with too much out-of-pocket cash difference.
- From a car business perspective, it was the last day of the month.
- They made a terrific effort to get one of the first '08s... a four-door loaded with every option, including navigation, DSG, sunroof, leather, 18" wheels, Sirius satellite radio, etc. (There were only three '08s equipped like that in California so far)
Does that answer your question?
TagMan
Guys lets face it, if you like it, by a boatload of them
END OF DISCUSSION!
I can understand you watching that all-too-important price cap, especially seeing how you're awaiting a diesel-powered SUV.
I am also in your situation just as well. It has come time that I look into replacing the Accord. Usually, I'll just replace it with another model.
I have not driven an '08 yet nor seen one in person, but I will be doing so very shortly.
But here is the situation: I was really hoping Honda would have had the diesel version up and ready within the first model year. Now there is even talk that the Accord may not even get the diesel. Ahhh.
Looks like the fully-loaded EX V-6 again this time.
Regardless of all the terrific information... and I mean that in a respectful and complimentary way... there is still the main problem.
It takes much too much analysis, as SHOWN HERE, to justify the LS600hL's 20 mpg achievement. Yes, it can be shown to be a comparitive achievement of sorts, but when it boils down to it... 20 mpg just doesn't feel or seem to be enough for a hybrid!, especially to justify the difference in price between the LS460L and the LS600hL.
The performance and fuel economy of the LS460L is pretty darned good compared to the LS600hL, and it is hard to justify the price premium. Hybrid evokes expectations of higher gas mileage for most folks, and that is a major obstacle here. Thus, the reason that cyclone4 has gone with the LS460L. Frankly, the LS460L just makes more sense.
So, even though there are legitimate arguments to support the LS600hL... it's an excercise in futility, because common sense just dictates that the LS460L is a better buy, and that 20 mpg isn't really enough for a hybrid.
So, in spite of any technical arguments, the LS460L, or even the S600 and BMW 7-series, and other alternatives become reasonable choices from a more natural perspective that doesn't require a clipboard.
If the buyers can afford any of these cars, the 20 mpg as a hybrid won't mean a lot to most folks in that demographic group.
And, frankly, that's how the majority of the world will see it... whether or not the advantages of the LS600hL are "true" in the technical sense or not.
TagMan
TagMan
It just doesn't matter. Some how, some way, you will be proven unrightous and and the villain of the thread for simply stating the car is utterly pointless.
It wouldn't matter if that car had the best hybrid system running, a car that weighs in over 2 and half tons, is not going to deliver great fuel econ numbers, hence those lackluster number that this car achieves.
If I wanted a big luxury ride with good numbers, the XJ would definitely be on my list. The hybrid, maybe not.
It's like I said in my original post: This car is mainly for status and the like thereof.
Please find any "errors" and "misinterpetations" in this one why don't ya...
BTW, I finally know how it feels again to be without one luxury car.
The S8 is out at the tuner shop getting juiced up. My daughter took the W12 up to our Maine cabin for the remainder of the summer while her husband took their Q7 to Vermont on a camping trip. And the wife drove the XK to some jewelers convention in Philly.
So my choices are narrowed: SRT-8, Vette, or some of the old stuff that I hate to drive because they're so near and dear to me. What's a fella to do? :P
HA... I'm feeling sorry for ya out there on beautiful L.I., with all those rides to choose from.
You lucky dog!
Your only real problem is that the wife might come back with a bunch of expensive jewelry. :sick:
TagMan
I certainly agree with your statement here. I just resent the misinformation that was previously posted by someone that "overpaid" $36,000 for their vehicle (vs. the excellent S550) criticizing someone else for paying far less than $28,000 more for the 600hL over the excellent LS 460L. Saving 9/10ths of a second from 0-60 in an already fast vehicle is not even worth $3000 to me, let alone $36,000. In the same way, saving 2 MPG and experiencing significantly lower NVH levels may not even be worth $3000 to you or others - to each his own.
common sense just dictates that the LS460L is a better buy
Common sense also dictates that the a loaded S550 is a better buy than the S600, a loaded 750Li is a better buy than the 760Li, and a loaded A8L is a better buy than an A8L W12. Despite this, I do not see anyone on this forum questioning the wisdom or berating the decisions of those that choose to pay a hefty sum for little more than a V12 engine in vehicles that are already exceptionally luxurious and powerful.
I'm glad we agree.
Common sense also dictates that the a loaded S550 is a better buy than the S600, a loaded 750Li is a better buy than the 760Li, and a loaded A8L is a better buy than an A8L W12.
I'm not so sure of that. The LS600hL and the LS460L are both V8, so common sense has to question that there's a significant difference... and the difference requires too much analysis, and even then, the difference doesn't seem significant.
On the other hand, the difference between V8 and W12 is one that gets adrenaline rushing and is perceived as a huge difference... and it is, in fact, a huge difference.
TagMan
Hey, you can't have it both ways here. You mention above that common sense dictates that the 460L is a better buy than the 600hl....OK, but please use that same common sense to mention that the S550 is a better buy than the S600 and the 750il is a better buy than the 760il...You can't have your cake and eat it too on this one.