Luxury Lounge

lexusguy

Mercedes-Benz impressed, besting out a supposed bulletproof Japanese brand. I guess those E-Class models held their own. But Infiniti's customer satisfaction and reliablilty remains stellar in the real world, surveys be damned.

The G, M, and FX are bulletproof. The problem is the QX, which is the worst luxury SUV on the market, quality wise. That's got to be a huge drag on their overall score, because the rest of their cars are easily as good as Lexus.

2001gs430

Jose, there is a parallel situation here for Canadian living near the US border. The prices are so different that last Monday I bought an RX350 Awd in the US and saved approx CAD 15K. I drove the 800km distance to bring it back to Toronto. It was worth every penny.

tagman

The RDX would be the perfect candidate for diesel power. Fuel economy would improve by at least 50%, without eating up the RDX's limited interior space or ruining its handling prowess.

I agree. And the gas version seems much too thirsty, particularly for a vehicle of this class. In fact, as you say, it's "the perfect candidate for diesel power"... and that really is so true that it's almost a sure bet that the RDX will get a diesel variant.

TagMan

jlbl

Jose

tagman

IMO, AutoSpies.com is not necessarily a very dependable source of automotive news, but this perspective of the JD Power 2007 Vehicle Dependability Study is a good one. AutoSpies grouped the brands by region to see what changes occurred from last year's 2006 JD Power VDS to this year's 2007 JD Power VDS. Here are the interesting results.

% of change in dependability from 2006 to 2007, by region:

Europe = +8.12% Improvement
Korea = +8.35% Improvement
United States = +7.35% Improvement
Japan = -2.29% Worse

When viewing all the auto manufacturer brands in their respective regional groups, it becomes clear that the group, comprised of all the Japanese brands, is the only group to see its dependability deteriorate... hmmmm.

Here's the link, with additional info, and a chart that shows the brand-by-brand changes since last year.

link title

TagMan

lexusguy

When viewing all the auto manufacturer brands in their respective regional groups, it becomes clear that the group, comprised of all the Japanese brands, is the only group to see its dependability deteriorate... hmmmm.

Well, just look at how badly Nissan and Mazda have done in recent JDP studies. Neither company is having great results with their American plants. There clearly is a reliability plateau, and Japan has reached it. Everybody else is catching up fast, which could eventually become a big problem for Japanese automakers. Infiniti is already capable of competing with Europe on merit. Others will have work to do, although there's a good chance that the general public will perceive Honda and Toyota as being far more reliable than everyone else long after they actually are.

jcoby

It is an interesting perspective. I expect Lexus to show declines with the 2009 and 2010 VDS studies (2006 & 2007 model year vehicles), while I expect Mercedes to continue with its improvements. The 2009 & 2010 VDS will be very interesting, and both Mercedes and BMW have a reasonable chance of achieving a Top 5 position in those studies.

louiswei

I guess the assumption behind your statement is that the new Lexus models are not be as reliable as the old ones?

If that's indeed the case, the 2012 VDS studies will be scary for Lexus since the next gen RX and the all-new JX will debut in 2008 as 2009 models.

jcoby

Not necessarily. My concern is that Lexus basically renewed their entire sedan line (2006 - GS & IS / 2007 - ES & LS) in only 2 model years, and any first-year "teething" problems are going to be concentrated and reflected in only 2 reports. If there were a greater spread between model year introductions, the first-year "teething" problems of only 1 sedan would weigh down the overall corporate VDS score. Now we have the potential for BOTH the GS & IS sedans to weigh down the 2009 Lexus VDS score, and BOTH the ES & LS to weigh down the 2010 Lexus VDS score.

tagman

there's a good chance that the general public will perceive Honda and Toyota as being far more reliable than everyone else long after they actually are.

Yes... I agree. In fact, I think they already incorrectly perceive that at times.

TagMan

tagman

I expect Lexus to show declines with the 2009 and 2010 VDS studies (2006 & 2007 model year vehicles), while I expect Mercedes to continue with its improvements.

In fact, the Lexus brand already showed a significant decline since last year... going from 136 problems to 145, a deterioration of 6.6%.

Just for fun, compare that to Porsche, which some were poking at, which changed by only 1.61%, it would seem that Lexus's deterioration is over 4 times worse than Porsche since only last year... and that's no spin. :shades:

TagMan

tagman

I guess the assumption behind your statement is that the new Lexus models are not be as reliable as the old ones?

Yes, there is validity in what you say here.

Especially when you consider that most of the Lexus model's bugs should have been worked out with regards to the '07 study, which reflects upon previous vehicles. Now, going into a newer model typically is even worse. The LS460's wind noise problem, for example, plagues the new model. The 2010 study will likely not be good for Lexus... so even further deterioration seems inevitable.

TagMan

jcoby

...but Porsche also had nearly twice the number of problems as Lexus did in both the 2006/2007 VDS. :shades:

2006 Porsche/Lexus - 248/136 - 1.82 : 1
2007 Porsche/Lexus - 252/145 - 1.74 : 1

tagman

Your chart shows a little improvement for Porsche in contrast to Lexus! And, considering how "reliable" Lexus is perceived, and how "low" their number is... a factor of only 1.74 times that low number can't be all that bad now, can it? :P

Edit: Do you think I bought my Porsche after reading Consumer Reports, or after an exhilerating test drive?

So far the number of problems = 0. As I've posted, the current 997 model is the best 911 ever produced. Drive one... and you'll completely understand.

TagMan

hpowders

Seems everybody missed the most significant point of the reliability survey, or maybe they just didn't want to see it; that is:

BMW now has to be considered the best overall manufacturer of the manufacturers surveyed. Factor in the company's fine reliability showing in the survey along with its indisputible reputation for producing great performing vehicles and BMW out scores every vehicle in the survey.

Anecdotally borne out from my experience with 3 flawless BMWs since 1993.

Yes, I've been posting this for years: BMWs are reliable vehicles, otherwise they could not afford to offer a 4 year free maintenance program.

It's about time JD Power caught up to what many of us proud BMW drivers already know.

Mein eyes have seen the glory... :shades:

PS: I find it interesting that of all the Japanese mainstream/luxury manufacturers only one luxury brand actually scores lower in reliability than its corresponding mainstream brand: Acura scores lower in reliability than Honda. Seems one is paying more for less! :surprise:

jcoby

I was only referring to your post about Lexus reliability declining by 4 times as much percentage-wise as Porsche; the fact that Lexus only has a bit over HALF of the problems as Porsche means that for a given increase in problems applied to both makes, the percentage increase will look almost twice as bad for Lexus as it will for Porsche. My chart only shows that the reliability gap is slightly narrowing between Porsche and Lexus, the cureent benchmark; I hope that Porsche will drop that gap from 1.74 to 1.64 or below for the 2008 VDS.

louiswei

Actually, the 2007 VDS studies is for 3-year-old (2004 model year) vehicles. During the 2004 model year, Lexus introduced the current gen RX. Since the RX is the best selling Lexus model for now (and back then) thus the declining JDP VDS studies figures.

Bottom line: it is simply incorrect to assume that Lexus models' bugs should have been worked out for all its 2004 models.

However, I am also assuming that the reason for the Lexus 2007 VDS studies result is due to the all-new RX back then. For next year's studies (2005 model year), Lexus should have no new models and all bugs should have been worked out. If the theory holds then we should see an improvement for Lexus in JDP's 2008 VDS studies. Otherwise then the legendary Lexus quality may indeed is falling and I wouldn't want to see the 2009, 2010 results if I am Lexus.

jlbl

Mein eyes have seen the glory.... :shades:



Jose

hpowders

I'm glad you liked it!

jcoby

I certainly don't believe that one should place statistical reliability above overall vehicle satisfaction. I don't know if you have a similar situation, Tagman, but I don't actually NEED a car to get to work or run errands; I can take public transit or rent a vehicle if I need to venture somewhere outside of public transit. I can handle an occassional mechanical breakdown without it causing great distress in my life. While reliability is important to me, I would be willing to purchase a vehicle that has a less-than-stellar reliability reputation if the car otherwise appealed to me. However, Lexus currently meets my needs for both appeal and reliability. In fact, the dealer service is so outstanding that I actually look forward to my scheduled maintenance and I would not be at all disappointed with Lexus if I had 1 or 2 moderate problems with my vehicle in the future - as long as they continue to treat me the way that they have been treating me.

If the Porsche is what is right for and you have a strong relationship with your dealership and/or corporate, then you certainly made the right decision.

jcoby

How exactly did you come to that conclusion? Even if you simply add Lexus' 145 PP100 to Toyota's 178 PP100, along with Scion's 220 PP100, you come up with 543; when 543 is divided by 3, you get a score of 181 PP100 for all of Toyota versus 182 for BMW. Please tell us how BMW is the best overall manufacturer overall based on the 2007 VDS if Toyota outscored it.

hpowders

Quite simple. I plugged "performance" into the equation.

No other vehicle scoring higher than BMW in the survey comes close to BMW in performance of its vehicles.

Since BMW was fairly close to the top of the reliability survey and no manufacturer scoring higher than BMW matches BMW performance, if one creates a score factoring both performance and reliability from the survey, BMW would come out on top.

louiswei

jcoby, although I also don't think BMW is the best manufacture reliability-wise I also think there is a flaw in your equation. The problem is that you didn't take the number of vehicles sold for each brand under consideration. The correct equation IMHO should be:

(178 x (number of Toyotas sold / 100) + 145 x (number of Lexuses sold / 100) + 220 x (number of Scions sold / 100)) / (Total number of vehicles sold / 100)

Trust me, the result using this equation will come well below BMW's 182.

Also, I don't think it's fair to compare BMW+Mini+RR's reliability figure to GM, Toyota and Ford simply because BMW is NOT a full-line manufacture. BMW should compare with the luxury brands like Lexus and Caddy.

gfr1

I am a regular recipient of questionnaires from CR & Powers. I do respect their information, but the way it works is rather unfair to manufacturers such as Mercedes, Porsche BMW, Lexus, etc., when compared to basic vehicles, like Buick. Being a retired fighter pilot and retired corporate international jet pilot, I'm a gadget freak - so to speak. I special ordered my 2001 S-Model Mercedes "full-up". It now has around 31,000 miles & gets 22.7 mpg (three decimal point spread sheet based on cost vs. fuel price, not interpreted gals.) on trips, such as, from the Scottsdale, AZ area, thru LA, up to Sacramento, back around LA, at the speed limits. Now when I respond to those questionaires, they don't ask about specific items, but rather general systems, such as cooling, exhaust system, brakes, HVAC, etc. I have radar (Distronic) cruise control; "Parktronic", front & rear reclining seats, tire pressure monitoring (not a anti-skid wheel rpm jury rigged system, but a constant readout of psi for each tire). Of course, ventilated and heated seats, front and rear A/C with individual seat sensed temp control,voice controls, electric rear window sun screen and on & on. So, since I received my Mercedes in Nov., 2000, I've had malfunctions with the "back-up" function of the rear view mirror, radar cruise control and tire pressure system. The pressure readout remained functional, but a warning said that there was a malfunction and to take it in for service. How many of these areas of malfunction that my car is charged with did the 2001 Buick have? So, where is the comparison of reliability? And, like your Porsche, I have not had a dollar of expense for failed items and my warrantee expired Nov. '04. That's not to say that routine service comes cheap, but I just feel that a comparison of reliability/satisfaction, such as the current top rating of the Buick, can be a misleading comparison & I don't agonize over it. One car, as my Mercedes and your Porsche, can't identify the reliability of the brand, but I do feel that advanced vehicles, such as Mercedes, probably are being unfairly judged. That is a real risk that manufacturers take when they try to stretch technology, but they really shouldn't be condemned during a comparison with a basic vehicle. GR (ex Porsche 911 driver)

tagman

Bottom line: it is simply incorrect to assume that Lexus models' bugs should have been worked out for all its 2004 models.

Yes it would be incorrect to say that ALL its 2004 models should have the bugs worked out... but I didn't post that... I posted MOST of its models... which, in turn, IS correct.

I do agree about seeing what happens next year and thereafter... it will definately point out the trend line for Lexus.

TagMan

tagman

If the Porsche is what is right for and you have a strong relationship with your dealership and/or corporate, then you certainly made the right decision.

Well... one nice little tidbit... my company, and thus my work, is located only two blocks away from the Porsche dealership. When it comes time for the routine service interval, it can hardly get much more convenient than that.

Now, of course, I could request a loaner, or perhaps a lengthy two-block ride in their Cayenne shuttle just to keep their shuttle driver on his toes.

TagMan

jcoby

The study presents the data as problems per 100 vehicles, so it is an average. I also figured that he left out Mini since BMW does not manufacture those vehicles in a plant that was built from the ground up for BMWs.

louiswei

Agree the data is an average but to get the 181 (the average between Lexus, Scion and Toyota) you are assuming that Lexus, Scion and Toyotal all sold equal amount of vehicles.

The real average should be less than 181 because Toyota sold way more than Lexus and Lexus also sold more than Scion.

tagman

The real average should be less than 181 because Toyota sold way more than Lexus and Lexus also sold more than Scion.

But in a total blend, you would lose any distinctive differences in the averages as it pertains to the different marques... which apparently does indeed have significance, otherwise the three marques would all be relatively the same... and they clearly are not.

TagMan

jcoby

I can certainly agree with that statement based on the criteria you presented, but not everyone is looking for performance at the level that you suggest.

In my neck of the woods, most everything is master-planned, the streets intersect at perfect right angles, there are no mountains and very few hills; you have to actually search for curved roads, which is a shame. Traffic police are everywhere just waiting to give out speeding tickets, perhaps because there is so little serious crime to combat and not much else for the police to do. While I could appreciate a high-performance sedan, I have absolutely no use for one in the area that I live because I have no place to take advantage of the higher handling limits of a BMW versus its competitors; I have not even approached the handling limits of my current vehicle. When I take away BMW's handling advantage, there is little reason for me to choose one over its fine competitors, unless I am leasing a vehicle.

jcoby

I fully agree that the simplistic calculation is not quite accurate due to the differences in sales volume between the makes, but a more rigorous calculation will only improve Toyota's numbers; this simple calculation already shows that Toyota has fewer PP100 vehicles than BMW. I figured that Hpowders did a similar type of calculation to arrive at his conclusion.

louiswei

Gotcha .

jcoby

Maintenance and reliability do not have much in commom; a high-quality manufacturer may very well recommend the performance of more maintenance services than a manufacturer of lower-quality vehicles, and vice versa.

While the JD Power and CR reliability surveys are not perfect, they are better than some assume. Just because you have a vehicle that is poorly rated on one or both of these surveys does not mean that it is predicted that YOU will ACTUALLY have a problem with your own vehicle. Your deviation from the norm does not invalidate the trend that more problems were reported for your year/make/model vehicle than the industry average. Even perennial bottom-dwellers such as Range Rover have thousands of owners across the USA that have never experienced so much as a squeak or rattle from their vehicles in many years of ownership. This does not change the fact that a future owner of a Range Rover has a statistically greater chance of having a major vehicle problem within 3 years versus the future buyer of a vehicle that performed near the industry average or above, such as Lexus.

tagman

Even perennial bottom-dwellers such as Range Rover have thousands of owners across the USA that have never experienced so much as a squeak or rattle from their vehicles in many years of ownership.

That's a true statement.

Now, two things...

1.) No two vehicles, even of the same model, are truly identical. Each has its own potential flaws in addition to those shared flaws or weaknesses that could be inherently built into the design itself.

2.) Vehicles in different regions of the country are subjected to different stresses and hardships. For example, it is my experience that cars out here in many areas of California do not receive anywhere near the harsh exposure of changing seasonal weather, and number of annual serious storms. The mild and mostly steady climate is easy on vehicles here, unlike the large temperature swings and nasty storms in most of the country. California vehicles simply don't get the environmental abuse thrown at them as in most areas of the country. Especially areas like Chicago, Cleveland, or Buffalo, for example, In addition, California vehicles almost never have corrosion issues associated with vehicles from many other states.

I would bet that a California-only JD Power VDS would have much better results than the national average. :shades:

TagMan

hpowders

I agree. Not everybody is seeking performance at the highest level.

Even though I seek it and have found it in my 545i, I cannot use it anywhere near the max. In the USA, a BMW cannot be put through its paces like it is meant to be.

The USA is way behind Europe in its stubborn adherence to prudish, outdated values-the Autobahn and beaches are cases in point.

Why we can't go as fast as we want to in non-rush hour interstate situations is beyond me.

However, where I live, 80mph on the interstate is kind of slow even for the right lane these days. Most of us are cruisin' at 85-90. O'l Smokey doesn't bother us on my stretch of the interstate.

There's nothing like the exhilaration I feel when I get on the interstate and I'm doing 90 in the left lane in just a few seconds.

If I was back on LI, I just might seek out a vehicle for its comfort, rather than its performance. A performance vehicle would simply be too frustrating. There's no way I have a 545i anywhere in the NYC/suburbs area.

Whenever I visit NYC I am amazed at how afraid everyone is to go 75mph on the highways.

I totally agree with your post. Makes a lot of sense.

hpowders

Reliability has improved so much, that even vehicles near the bottom of these surveys are most likely okay, IMO.

I have been driving the interstate near where I live for 11 years. I have never seen a tow truck rescuing anybody!

For anybody afraid to purchase a new vehicle because it may be unreliable, seems to me an irrational fear.

You like it ... get it!

You want high performance with excellent reliability, get a BMW.

PS: the Porsche guy here-if he offered me his vehicle for a great price, you think I will turn it down because it was near the bottom of the latest survey list? No way!!

PS': Nice to read coherent articulate posts for a change. No talking in riddles. No deliberate provocations followed by a zillion "sincere"apologies. Hope you stick around.

houdini1

The best explanation I have seen as to why you, I, or anyone else would drive any specific marque. Excellent post!!

tagman

There's nothing like the exhilaration I feel when I get on the interstate and I'm doing 90 in the left lane in just a few seconds.

Amen to that, brother!

What'll it be?... your usual, sir? ... shot of adrenaline, at 90? Or shall we mix ya a double today, at 120? :shades:

TagMan

hpowders

Hey whassup with these crazy surveys? Last time I looked, Porsche was on top! Who ya gonna believe?

tagman

Hpowders -

Going 100+ in the Carrera S happens so quickly, smoothly, and with such ease. Passing, when necessary, is almost instantaneous. The steering is so precise and responsive. Tight turns can easily be swept through at high speed. Shifting gears is so smooth and accurate. The reserve of top-end speed feels almost unlimited, as its eager and willing presense can always be felt, and with the knowledge that its upper-most speed capabilities will most likely always be beyond my experience.

"There is no substitute".

And I will say it again... the 997 Porsche is the finest 911 Porsche has ever built. Worth every penny.

TagMan

jcoby

If I lived in your area or anywhere else with much more interesting terrain than suburban Dallas, Porsche and BMW would be at the very top of my shopping list - despite my completely heavenly experience with Lexus.

jcoby

"However, where I live, 80mph on the interstate is kind of slow even for the right lane these days. Most of us are cruisin' at 85-90. O'l Smokey doesn't bother us on my stretch of the interstate."

Amazing, because we don't have this luxury where I live. The speed limit for the major Dallas thoroughfare, I-635, is only 60 and even the left lane is usually moving just 60-70 MPH.

State troopers AND local cops eagerly await speeders as one travels down either Hwy 80 or I-20, as I do occasionally to visit family. I just put on my cruise control and traverse these relentlessly straight highways at the speed limit to avoid trouble; I can think of no more than 4 significant curves in the entire 150-mile stretch, but my car handles those beautifully.

hpowders

I know what you mean. The 545i can't take the corners anywhere near the way a 911 can, but for smooth effortless power at 85-100 mph, these vehicles are probably comparable.

I floored it today on the interstate after a fine dinner out and the resulting growl was quite intoxicating. However, the fuel gauge needle seemed to be working like a speedometer indicator in reverse! Needless to say, I arrived home quickly from a 20 mile trip at a price of 15 mpg. Well worth it.

Imagine doing this with a diesel and achieving 20-25 mpg!

tagman

jcoby - You have defined a dimension of sadness.
Yet, you have made me more appreciative of one of the finer things in life... For that, sir, I thank you.
TagMan

hpowders

I feel your pain, brother. I used to "live" in the NYC environs and driving there was miserable at best. I took public transit whenever I could. When I went back there recently and nobody on the highway was going 75 mph, I realized there must be "supervision" present.

I love it down here. I get to outrun the 'gators, if not the lovebugs!

Seriously though, there are some shameless speed traps in Florida. I completely avoid the Orlando area. If I want to go to Disney, I go to Anaheim. I will be in Ontario, Ca next month and I just may do that!

tagman

And yet with all the fun we have, Mr. H., I have not experienced the pleasure of having the smooth and massive torque of a V-12 sit and await the push of the pedal under my right foot. Something I'll look forward to trying one day, I suppose.
TagMan

hpowders

Not much fun if the powers that be don't stop harassing us and treating us like "easy money."

I hope I live to see speed limits abolished on interstates, though I doubt it.

We are being deprived of one of life's greatest pleasures: allowing wonderful performance vehicles to strut their stuff to the max.

Sure wish I had the 545i on the road to Hana last year. That would have been unforgettable! What a great test for a performance vehicle!

On Maui, they call me:

Mr. H

tagman

Sure wish I had the 545i on the road to Hana last year. That would have been unforgettable!

Yes... you would never forget your wife puking in the seat next to you after screaming and pleading with you to take it easy, and then ultimately depriving you of rum cake for at least several months!

TagMan

hpowders

You have that right! Heh! Heh!

Hana with my wife is out of the question. I found that out last year. We made it half-way last year when she insisted we turn around.

As a matter of fact we have friends and family who have complained to my wife (never to me) about my "aggressive" driving and refuse to ride in my car.

Meanwhile, one of the folks who complained drives so darn slow, I refuse to ever get in his car!

Lots of laughs all around!

PS: If I can't drive, I don't want to go! :mad:

tagman

LOL. Funny stuff, H.
TM