Luxury Lounge

tagman

Lots of fun reading that article, LG.

The interior workmanship is quite impressive. Some of today's manufacturer's could learn a thing or two.

TagMan

blkhemi

LG, thanks for this wonderful article.

A definitely good change of scenery around here.

lexusguy

The interior workmanship is quite impressive. Some of today's manufacturer's could learn a thing or two.

Absolutely. There was definitely a lot of painstaking care that went into interior design in those days, probably peaking in the '30s. Interiors took a huge nosedive (along with the rest of car design) in the late '60s/early '70s, hitting their absolute nadir in the '80s and only recovering relatively recently. The Vette for example went from this:



To this:

tagman

Interiors took a huge nosedive (along with the rest of car design) in the late '60s/early '70s, hitting their absolute nadir in the '80s and only recovering relatively recently. The Vette for example went from this:

Well, LG - you made your point quite perfectly and incredibly with those pics of the Corvette. An astonishing difference! However, it's also particularly disappointing when you consider that the Vette has long been an American Icon, and yet it still went through a time when it wound up on the receiving end of a deficient, non-inspiring cockpit.

TagMan

blkhemi

"An astonishinh difference! However, it's also particularly disappointing when you consifer that the Vette has long been an American Icon, and yet it still went through a time when it wound up on the receiving end of a defcient, non-inspiring cockpit."

Brilliantly said. Out of roughly 20 Corvettes of ownership, only the early models impressed.

Year after year, I along with my Corvette club plead with GM to do something with that interior. Well, we've finally got out wish with the newly optional 4LT interior pkg. It really dresses it up.

But yeah, the late 70's through the 80's were the "dark days". Not until '97 did it get a decent interior, but even it was dated before the C5 went on sale.

houdini1

I shudder to think what we all would be driving now if it were not for the Japanese and European auto invasion. We got sold out big time by Detroit and the Big 3...and it would still be going on except for imports, both Japanese and European.

It was driven by greed. They just kept building cheaper and shoddier cars and charging more and more for them... until the competition showed up. Frankly, I believe the mindset is still there and I have no sympathy at all for Detroit. Yes, their cars are better now, but only because alternatives became available.

They had a great thing going but squandered it away because of arrogance and greed. LG's picture is worth a thousand words and quite an indictment.

tagman

I shudder to think what we all would be driving now if it were not for the Japanese and European auto invasion.

How true, and thus you have part of the reason that the Detroit 3 are in such trouble... and ... as you so correctly said, "They had a great thing going but squandered it away because of arrogance and greed."

As we've discussed in recent posts, the General seems poised to make a comeback, but Ford on the other hand is in deep trouble. Chrysler is under new ownership, and it will likely help, but that is to be seen.

And the competition continues to march on... thankfully.

TagMan

lexusguy

I shudder to think what we all would be driving now if it were not for the Japanese and European auto invasion. We got sold out big time by Detroit and the Big 3...and it would still be going on except for imports, both Japanese and European.

I think US auto manufacturing would be a very different landscape today if the depression hadn't happened, which killed so many classic US brands. Fledgling Honda and Toyota may not have survived if there were still Auburns, Cords, Pierce-Arrows, etc. keeping GM, Ford, and Chrysler on their toes.

tagman

Here we go again.

The price of gas has gone down again, and I wonder how many people will get nice and comfy again and forget about those $4/gallon days that weren't all that long ago? If the price stays down long enough, will big SUVs and gas guzzlers start rolling off the lots again? Or did the majority of Americans learn their lesson this last time gas spiked? And are enough of us fed up with our reliance on foreign oil?

History shows how Americans get complacent time and time again. Is this time going to be different? Or is there sufficient momentum towards alternative fuels and powertrains, and fuel-efficiency, to sustain itself? I wonder about this.

TagMan

anthonyp

Hello TagMan

I to also wonder ...It would have seemed, a long time ago, that there would somehow be some with integrity in our government...The oil people seem to dominate--but still the encouragement of self sufficiency should have taken root by now...Maybe with the introductions of better diesel engines will help shift the demand picture...Even possibly a change in leadership may acelerate the change, along with alternate fuels....I am told that the ethonl mixture is going to be max ten percent, and the ethonal is to be moved with unit trains from the ethonl plant to the refinery where it will be blended....All the ethonl plants that are in the works are sufficient to produce enough ethonl---so that the building of new ones will not be viable...We`l see, and I hope the change does happen soon....Crazy what is now going on....Tony

tagman

...but still the encouragement of self sufficiency should have taken root by now...

Hello Tony - always good to hear from you. Self-energy-sufficiency seems to exist only in campaign speeches... and has done so for many years.

I can't believe that the oil embargo is only a distant memory. What does it take to change people's thinking and behavior? Probably the answer is $4/gallon - $5/gallon gasoline, and above. I think THAT might be the magic price range to get people's attention..

Isn't it funny how the moment people start to think seriously about becoming energy independent, it isn't long before the price of gas goes back down? What a coincidence!!

And then folks gradually return to their normal routine, as though nothing ever happened!

So predictable... and profitable for you-know-who.

TagMan

designman

You were very generous showing the 80's Vette interior booted up in full digital regalia. Turn it off and it REALLY sucks. When creating interiors, designers must never forget why analog watches have transcended modern trends. This also applies to other aspects of design.

How ya doin' guys? I hope everyone is enjoying their summer.

lexusguy

You were very generous showing the 80's Vette interior booted up in full digital regalia. Turn it off and it REALLY sucks. When creating interiors, designers must never forget why analog watches have transcended modern trends. This also applies to other aspects of design.

Yeah, I was trying to find a through the rim shot similar to the first one of the '50s Vette, and there weren't many. The rest of the interior is no better than the gauges, on or off. It is funny though that the entire dash was digital except for the odometer, the one thing that is almost always digital in cars today. Everything in the '80s was black, plastic, and square, and there was an obsession with digital everything.

Some of my favorite '80s monstrosities:

The first touchscreen controlled HVAC system?


What on earth was the concave dash for?


Another one that I unfortunately can't find a picture of was the Mercury Sable, which had a two-digit digital speedo that only went to 88. The car was cable of going faster than that, but past 88 you just had to guess how fast you were actually going. It must've skipped the designers minds that two digits are capable of displaying up to 99.

tagman

Another one that I unfortunately can't find a picture of was the Mercury Sable, which had a two-digit digital speedo that only went to 88. The car was cable of going faster than that, but past 88 you just had to guess how fast you were actually going. It must've skipped the designers minds that two digits are capable of displaying up to 99.

Lexusguy - You'll appreciate this!

The reason for the two-digit speedo is that the U.S. government mandated that all 1980 and forward vehicles were required by law to only display up to 85 mph on the speedometer. Yikes!

Later, the law was repealed, of course... I believe applicable to the 1983 and forward model years.

TagMan

lexusguy

The reason for the two-digit speedo is that the U.S. government mandated that all 1980 and forward vehicles were required by law to only display up to 85 mph on the speedometer. Yikes!

I do remember that most American cars with traditional gauges at the time had "55" usually bigger and in a different color than the rest of the numbers, trying to suggest that you really shouldn't be going faster than this.

blckislandguy

Lexusguy, I am of the TNSFCI ("There's no subsitute for Cubic Inches") school and think that more displacement and less in the way of blowers would be the way to go.

The last time I looked a reman turbo for one of these would go for $800 or so PLUS R & R labor. Can you imagine the reaction of the (second) owner of one of the new twin turbo Bimmer's when he is told by "his" service advisor that he needs two new turbos and that the warranty was up 5K miles ago?

Aside from turbos, it looks like Volvo labored for 7 years to come up with the '08 which looks like a real dud. All that development money wasted on a heavier, slower wagon with less luggage room. Who cares if it has 5 kinds of metal in the frame rails?

brightness04

Considering the vehicles in our own garages (AWD SUV's and "unnecessarily powerful" sportscar), neither of us have a leg to stand on in preaching buying fuel misers. Then again, telling everyone else to reduce their footprint while running up a $30k a year heating bill seems to be quite fashionable nowadays. The old world is full of those hypocrits, who ride around in stretched limos surrounded by motorcade, yet lay down laws that penalize the average working stiff on driving anything more than a dinky death trap wrapped around a 1.5L engine. Thank goodness, America is not entirely like that . . . not yet anyway.

While we are on the topic of conspiracy theories, it's even funnier to see that just as the rest of the world is starting to waiver in their faith in the mighty US Dollar, the money printing press is being reigned in to bolster the dollar credibility. $5/gallon gas too shall come some day, with commensurate gold price over $900, silver over $50, and copper over $600 (per ton). Of course, the public would hardly take a moment and notice that none of commodities, except oil, is produced in the middleast or involved in any embargo, yet they all have run up dramaticly as the dollar collapses . . . because gasoline is the only item that consumers buy in a form that is anything close to commodity form. All the government endeavor in squeezing blood out of turnip will only bring the dollar collapse that much sooner.

lexusguy

The last time I looked a reman turbo for one of these would go for $800 or so PLUS R & R labor. Can you imagine the reaction of the (second) owner of one of the new twin turbo Bimmer's when he is told by "his" service advisor that he needs two new turbos and that the warranty was up 5K miles ago?

Unfortunately V70/XC70 buyers wont even get the option (at least in the US) to choose whether they want to chance a turbo or not. You can have it in any color you like, as long as that color is slug.

The problem with a longitudinally mounted inline is that it has to fit under the hood, so swelling to 3.5L+ becomes problematic. In any case, the only naturally aspirated 6s stronger than BMW's 3.0TT come from Porsche. They may say (wink wink, nudge nudge) 300hp, but it actually produces around 330hp, and with about 30 more ft.lbs of torque than any of its direct rivals.

Anything on a used, out of warranty German luxury car is going to break eventually, and there's a very good chance that repairing\replacing it will be expensive, no matter what it is. Buyers scared about maintenance costs should buy a Civic.

lexusguy

While we are on the topic of conspiracy theories, it's even funnier to see that just as the rest of the world is starting to waiver in their faith in the mighty US Dollar, the money printing press is being reigned in to bolster the dollar credibility.

Well, I'm glad somebody is doing something to try and curb inflation. They finally passed the first federal minimum wage increase in ten years, up to a whopping $5.85. Adjusted for inflation, minimum wage would have to be over $9 to break even with what $5.15 bought in 1997.

Traveling to England is not fun when a dollar gets you about 48p. If the Canadians break even with us, we're in big trouble.

brightness04

I very much agree that inflation needs to be reigned in. The reality is though, with hedge fund jockies (and bankers soon too) clamoring to open the Federal Reserve discount window (i.e. handing out free cash to bail out overleveraged lending institutions) at the top, and the unions and their political spokespersons advocating raising minimum wage at the bottom (i.e. keeping workers whose work financially worth less out of the work force altogether), how long can the fiscal restraint last?

In terms of Constitutionally defined dollar (roughly 1/20 an ounce of gold, still in force as late as 1932), gasoline is less than 10 cents a gallon today; even using the token silver coins in circulation as late as 1963, a dollar worth of face value made up of 10 dimes, 4 quaters or two half-dollars in 1963 would fetch nearly 10 of today's paper "dollars"; in other words, a gallon of gasoline is about 30 cents today in 1963 silver legal tender coins! What oil shortage? Unless we are talking about shortage of all materials making up this planet (which would be an obvious joke). Our policiticans are quite capable of ruining out lives without outside help like silly mental constructs like embargo etc...

tagman

This car is simply gorgeous, and makes for a terrific convertible. Reality2 - I'd seriously consider applying my deposit towards the R8 Spyder! As with most exotics, the convertible is usually the better long-term purchase. But, OMG, just one look at this beauty, and it's pretty clear, IMO!



link title



TagMan

tagman

There is a great article in Automotive News today titled, "Meet the new GM".

The article's tag line reads, "That tidy 2nd-quarter profit may mean a new General Motors has begun to emerge -- a successful global competitor less dependent on North America"

Gosh... they are getting praise for this strategy. It immediately reminded me of Audi's global success that has not been dependent on North America.

Well, from the looks of it, a leaner, more profitable General Motors is indeed starting to emerge.

TagMan

blkhemi

"It immediately reminded me of Audi's global success that has not been dependent on North America."

Uh-Oh! Let's not de-earth that buried subject again!

Seriously though, this what I've been saying all along. Although America right now has a small lead over the next biggest car market, what happens when that lead becomes nonexistant by the end of this decade?

According to a lot of posters here who shall remain nameless for Pete's sake, North America(USA to be more direct) is the only car market that matters.

I just have to wonder. When China takes us over and in return send over some of their cars that are beating Toyota and Honda at their own game(watch out Hyundai), will China matter then? How much so?

Will Audi be taken serious then as it sells more premium brands than anyone there?

brightness04

The biggest difference between US and Chinese car market is the fact that the US has a mature market, whereas Chinese car ownership experience is in its early stages. By the time Chinese car ownership is as prevalent as the US (okay, make it within a factor of 5 or less per 1000 population; currently the ratio is 40-to-1 or thereabouts), the Chinese purchasing pattern may well become more American-like than akin to the Chiense purchasing pattern right now.

The Chinese automarket is similar to the US market in the 20's and 50's. Just about any carmaker, import and domestic, can survive there in a risig tide lifting all boats. The buyers have not yet developed the discriminating taste that we have here on quality and reliability . . . labor there is also cheap so car repair is cheap. All that is bound to change when the economy develops to a level where there can be a large volume of replacement purchases, not just the current high volume of new buyers. There are in fact a strong presence of French brands in China right now that have long been killed in the US market.

VW has a strong track record in the developing economies; however their track record in mature markets leaves much to be desired. The two markets tend to have different consumer buying patterns: the developing markets tend to emphasize the two ends of the market: luxury market for the neuvo riche tend to capture a high per centage of those markets; and the real bottom end where small businesses just want something motorized to replace the bicycles. The Audi and VW one-two punch work well for that kind of market structure. However, if an economy, regardless China, India or Brazil, is to develop into a market place with high volume replacement purchases like the US, it can't stay like a jumbo-sized banana republic forever. The middle class has to step forward. That is a class of buyers who have much higher standards on bang for their money. That's where Toyota and Honda, plus their Lexus and Acura cousins, tend to beat the likes of Audi and VW.

blkhemi

Not quite so sure about that.

One thing that has to be remembered is that China has a much different socio-economic balance than we do here in North America. I mean, they prefer Buicks over Hondas and Toyotas for crying out loud(not such a bad thing with Buicks good quality records, but we don't have Lucernes and Lacrosses in our drives as our fathers and grandfathers had Roadmasters and Riveras in theirs).

Lexus and Acura do horridly there just as they do in Japan and Europe. There is no "higher standard" for these makes.

True, China's market is still an emerging market, and there is still room to grow. But, even through in it's infancy, some makers have planted their roots and are better liked than others. This is not to say that Toyota and Honda will not be conceived well there, but the General and Europeans dominate like nobody's business right now. And I fully expect it to remain that way for years to come forgoing some major shift imbalance of taste there, and the Chinese aren't that willing to change like we Yanks.

There are some truths to your post however. If VW doesn't clean their quality rap up, they won't have to worry about being top seller anywhere.

But judging by all of the money and research Porsche and VW are throwing at all of the factories to tighten up the loose ends, they don't seem to be disappearing anytime soon.

houdini1

The only way China would have any significance for me is if I lived there. But I don't. I live in the U.S.A. and that is where my interest lies.

I would not care if Audi sold 10 million cars a year in China or if they sold 10. If I like Audi I will buy one, if not I won't.

blkhemi

Glad for ya. Still like the Q7?

blkhemi

I'm diggin' it.

They did a good job on integrating the whole thing. It doesn't look like a chop job. I love the fairings.

Is it enuff for you to give up on your aspiration of a Turbo Cab?

tagman

Is it enuff for you to give up on your aspiration of a Turbo Cab?

HA! I suppose if money were no object, most of us would own many more cars than we do... and I can honestly say that an R8 convertible would be in my garage next to my Porsche.

But back to reality, I'll still keep the Porsche.

Now, as far as stepping up a notch to a Turbo Cab from the Carrera S Cab... that's not likely, although the dealer promised to call me when one comes in, so I can check it out.

TagMan

lexusguy

Lexus and Acura do horridly there just as they do in Japan and Europe. There is no "higher standard" for these makes.

Japanese brands also have the additional hurdle of their country's very unpleasant history with China. What happened there during WWII was worse than 1000 Pearl Harbors.

houdini1

Yes, as a matter of fact I do like the Q7 and I like other Audis as well. I have cooled on the Q7 a little since I realized that it has the same underpinnings as the Touareg. And I just don't believe there is any significance, for me, concerning what people drive in China.

Remember the old joke about old so and so. You never heard of him but he is BIG in Europe!! That means he's a flop here.

blkhemi

"Now, as far as stepping up a notch to a Turbo Cab from the Carrera S Cab...that's not likely, although the dealer promised to call when one comes in, so I can check it out."

I can assure you that you should definitely await your dealer's call as the this 997 Turbo makes the 996 look somewhat tame

blkhemi

Respectable and understood.

But, I must say I liked the joke. But one must remember that joke has a reversal effect.

You never heard of him but he is BIG in America!! That means he's flop in Japan and Europe.

nvbanker

I do remember that most American cars with traditional gauges at the time had "55" usually bigger and in a different color than the rest of the numbers, trying to suggest that you really shouldn't be going faster than this.

Exactly - thank that genius and Nobel Peace Prize winner, Jimmy Carter for that - the government knew best how fast we should all travel...

houdini1

Yes, quite an accomplishment indeed. I would put that right up there with Al Gore inventing the internet!!

tagman

NVBANKER posted: Exactly - thank that genius and Nobel Peace Prize winner, Jimmy Carter for that - the government knew best how fast we should all travel...

HOUDINI posted: Yes, quite an accomplishment indeed. I would put that right up there with Al Gore inventing the internet!!

Umm... really sorry guys, but that's not right at all.

It was actually RICHARD NIXON, a.k.a. "Tricky Dicky", who brought us the 55 MPH speed limit in 1973...

and also the 68-degree interior temperature.

TagMan

laurasdada

"and also the 68-degree interior temperature. "

Yeah, if Nixon had given me some of his money I might crank the thermostat up to 68...! "Just put on a third sweater, dear!"

Gotta save my pennies for my XK/911/S5/R8/AM V8/Hyundai Genesis... :surprise:

jlbl

Those Corvette consoles whose pictures you posted some days ago are good examples of a bad cumulative design addiction case—no matter if for spheres or boxes. Many car designers thought at the time (and many still think) that a car dashboard had to be like a plane dashboard. Plenty of spheres and buttons, levels and gauges. The more illegible and complicated, the better.

Jose
(Back from a nice, quiet trip to buy some Somontano wine directly from the vineyard; two people, no luggage, 63.75 miles per hour averaged, 41.97 miles per gallon consumed)

tagman

(Back from a nice, quiet trip to buy some Somontano wine directly from the vineyard; two people, no luggage, 63.75 miles per hour averaged, 41.97 miles per gallon consumed)

"41.97 mpg consumed" sounds very good.

How much Somontano consumed?

TagMan

jlbl

When drinking cool clarete the second day, I lost the measure :shades: .

Jose

tagman

LOL.
TM

anthonyp

After driving around a bit --here in s.Florida---in the rented car-- I thought I would pass on the experience....The Hyundi(sp) is a fairly roomy feeling car, and drives very much like my old Lexus (03-4)In other words it feels like a heavy car...The engine is o.k. sort of slow but fine for normal driving around...No question in my mind, if it is priced reasonably---and I have no idea--that Toyota and Honda will have company...If they build a luxury car and price it well then Lexus etc. will have some competition..It really solidifies my position that the interior is now a very important part of my future decisions...I had an opperatunity to check out the Massarati and Ferrari cars and the Ferrari is just spectacular...It had no emblem on it so I couldn`t tell what model etc, but just to look is such a pleasure...The massarati, and the interior is very handsome--possibly better than my Audi---I just don`t care for the extra chrome on the outside...Tony

blkhemi

Indeed.

houdini1

Good ol' Tricky. I'll take that 68-degree interior temp today please!! The heat index here today is 106 degrees. At least I got Al Gore right. :shades:

brightness04

Before Buick became associated with grandpa's, it was the "bang for the buck luxury" for middle-level executives in America in the 1920's and the 1950's. It's more or less playing the same role in the Chinese market today. The phenomenom conforms rather well to my general theory that today's Chinese market is analogous to the US market of the 1920's and the 50's: a veritable flood of new car buyers sustaining all sorts of uneconomic operations that are not sustainable in the next down turn.

Lexus and Acura do horridly there just as they do in Japan and Europe.

I wouldn't call 70% annual growth rate "horridly." They are just getting started outside the US. So far they have been doing incredibly well compared to where VW, Audi, MB or BMW was in their respective first 3 years of existence.

As to the WWII link, it is true that there are still lingering sentimental reasons why some Chinese would not buy Japanese cars; in some cases even political ones, for those buying cars with public funds. The situation is no different from some Americans not buying German cars after WWII; for a couple decades, Americans would rather have British sportscars instead of Porsche despite the notorious unreliability of the former. Once again, it was in the 1950's. In time, that too shall change, as individuals put more weight on what they get for their money, instead of historical sentimentality that is more than 60 years old.

tagman

The heat index here today is 106 degrees.

I've visited your area of the country in the Summer, as well as other times of the year.... I know how bad that heat index can be... the sweat just pours out. It's miserable when it's like that. Spring and Fall are your best seasons, IMO.

Unfortunately, Tricky's 68-degree mandate was a limitation on how high to heat a building's interior in the Winter, not air condition it in the Summer. I don't recall if there was an air conditioning mandate as well, but I don't think there was one.

Tricky Dicky's 55 mph speed limit, however, was sooooo frustrating. I thank God it was repealed.

I hope "y'all" cool off soon! Fortunately, there always seems to be plenty of iced tea and Mountain Dew to drink out there.

A weekend at Table Rock Lake wouldn't hurt either.

TagMan

blckislandguy

Briteness04, where do you get the time to write this stuff? It is really pretty good.

Your piece below about consumer tastes for cars in emerging markets/BRIC markets/and developed markets is also good reading. I wonder though, and I have no knowledge of the issue, how much of the preference for VW/Audi and French brands in emerging markets is driven by a better distribution system and better local agents? Selling a French brand may not be all that difficult in francophone parts of Africa if the local agent has been in place for many years, etc. (Having said that I don't see any French brands in Quebec, a real natural for them.)

tagman

Good one... hadn't heard that before.
TM

brightness04

Thank you so much. I have somewhat of an advantage in that from time to time I have to hold my one-year old baby and rock her to sleep, so that gives me some extra time to take a step back from the daily grind and think through some of the issues. Then when the baby sitter takes over or baby goes to sleep, I can put my thoughts down whenever I'm waiting for the multi-processor computers to grind out work-related results.

You are absolutely right about VW/Audi's and French success in the developing world having to do with their distribution system/local agents. What gets distributed however is not cars per se, but production lines. The developing world has one common factor: high tarrif on car imports (until they are developed enough to join WTO anyway). When cars are in such a high demand that just about anything would sell, and the government officials control what gets sold in the country, appealing to consumer is nowhere nearly as important as appealing the government officials. French carmakers, living in a highly protectionist home market, are good at greesing the wheels. VW and MB have been tripping up on bribery scandals. Besides outright buying off of officials, another very handy tool in breaking into protectionist market is signing up joint ventures with local well-connected official-run factories. It's essentially a joint venture where the outside company pitches in capital and technology, and the local partner pitches in a cut of local monopolistic profit potential. VW/Audi has been at the forefront of that transaction all over the world. That BTW also explains why Quebecois are not filling their streets with French-made cars: Quebecois are not controlled by their government what car to buy, and what car face prohibitive import tax. As consumers in a relatively free market place, Quebecois buy cars according what gets the best bang for their buck.

jlbl

French carmakers are good at greesing the wheels. VW and MB have been tripping up on bribery scandals.

Agreed.

French carmakers, living in a highly protectionist home market…

I do not agree. And I am honestly curious about what are the facts that support American thinking that the EU inner market is a protectionist one. Right, there is subsidized agriculture, like in many other world regions. Also, some Countries have kept national reservations for so called strategic areas (e.g., energy production and distribution, jet plane building). And there is a lot of political fight at Brussels between national politicians in order to favour this or that sector at which the particular Country has interest. But for the most part of the economy things are not like that. As way of example (I posted this before, you should pardon me) French cars are not more expensive in France than German or Japanese cars. Cars, but all sort of cars, can be more expansive in Denmark than in France, and so on, because of local taxes.

Regards,
Jose