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  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,331
    I will post my driving impressions. As soon as the 2008 X3 hits the showroom, I will be there!

    Tagman, if some folks are miserable, don't let them drag you with them. :)

    You, I and others are quite secure in our knowledge that nothing out there compares to the great German machines produced by Porsche, BMW, Audi and Mercedes Benz.

    The provocators should be ignored. Now let's get back to talking about those great German vehicles! ;)
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    I will post my driving impressions. As soon as the 2008 X3 hits the showroom, I will be there!

    Did your BMW buddy at the dealership give you an ETA on the '08?

    Regarding your advice... Thanks, understood and appreciated. :D

    TM
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,331
    The new X3 will have a new interior lighting package, similar to what the 3 Series has; also, a new optional decorative sports package that improves its "look", adding nothing to its performance. :)
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    The new X3 will have a new interior lighting package, similar to what the 3 Series has; also, a new optional decorative sports package that improves its "look", adding nothing to its performance.

    Most likely the appearance package would be a waste of $$, unless it looks incredible, that is. I actually wouldn't order the full package with the sportier suspension, because I understand it makes the ride too rough.

    TagMan
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,331
    Re: ETA

    The factory has already re-tooled for the 2008 X3s. BMW dealerships are taking no new orders for 2007 X3s. The pricing schedule for the new X3 will be out in a couple of days.

    Since it usually takes 4-6 weeks from factory build to dealership, I figure by mid-September the 2008 X3s should be making an appearance. As soon as I find out my dealer has one for me to drive, I will shoot on down there. If I do decide on an X3, most likely it will be the 2008, which is why I am so eager to drive it. :)
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,331
    1. A Sport Activity Package: available for non sport X3s, consists of a new sport steering wheel, running boards, shadow line trim and the 18" available wheels that used to be available separately, but are no longer.

    2. Ambient lighting package, matches the interior lighting of 3 Series vehicles.

    3. HD radio as a stand alone option.

    Comments: The X3 does not need running boards. The step-in is easy. They will only dirty one's pants.

    The colors are exactly the same as the 2007, which is fine with me.

    I am quite happy that the X3 doesn't have the awful blindspots to the rear sides and direct rear that most SUVs have.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    I like the X3, and it is still a consideration. Even if it doesn't come with a diesel, the newer EPA ratings still show a combined 20 mpg. The only concern I have about the gas version is the hesitation issue, but hopefully that is corrected for '08.

    TagMan
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,331
    I plan on driving the X3 two or three times to check on the hesitation issue. The only other thing I can do is to monitor the posts of folks who have the 2008 X3 (on Edmunds and other BMW forums) to see if BMW has fixed the problem. Could be a software issue. If folks still complain about it, I'll pass.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Here are some CAFE EPA ratings to compare the "progress" made by these manufacturers in the last 23 years.

    .........................1983........2006
    Toyota...................26.........23.8
    General Motors......19.6.......20.5
    Ford.....................19.5.......19.7
    DaimlerChrysler*.....22.........19.1
    Honda...................30.........24.2
    Nissan..................27.........20.5

    Why? The addition of trucks and SUVs, which are the most profitable vehicles. And, to prove that point, Toyota, even with its hybrid technology, has now joined GM, Ford and Chrylser in the fight against the recent government attempts to raise the CAFE (Corporate Average Fuel Economy) standards. Just imagine Toyota doing THAT!!

    link title

    TagMan
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    I agree... that's the approach I would take.
    TM
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    What a disaster? 4K off a select number of S Classes that go out the door at about $90K . Wow many auto firms would kill to have that kind of problem.

    Even with a $90K sticker, $4K is quite a bit. Lincoln and Jag usually fight for the industry's biggest incentives prize, which rarely goes much above $7K. Contrast that with Porsche, who also has $90K cars, and will take maybe $150 off.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    I like the X3, and it is still a consideration. Even if it doesn't come with a diesel, the newer EPA ratings still show a combined 20 mpg. The only concern I have about the gas version is the hesitation issue, but hopefully that is corrected for '08.

    My wife averages around 22mpg with her X3, which isn't amazing but it is better than the RX300 which never made it above 18mpg. The X3's direct rivals are far worse, 16mpg for the RDX and 14mpg for the LR2, which is pretty inexcusable. That's what full-size, 2.5 ton SUVs get.
  • blkhemiblkhemi Member Posts: 1,717
    Amen to that brother.

    Heck, my 500hp SRT-8 JGC gets roughly 15mpg. And it runs rings around just about anything out there.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    This news just released...

    Ford to recall 3.6 million vehicles

    Reuters |
    August 3, 2007 - 5:10 pm

    WASHINGTON (Reuters) -- Ford Motor Co. is recalling as many as 3.6 million vehicles because a switch that deactivates the speed control can overheat, smoke or burn, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration said today.

    The agency said in a notice that the switch problem could result in a fire under the hood.

    The Ford vehicles involved include trucks, cars and SUVs with model years ranging from 1992 to 2004, depending on the particular vehicle.


    My goodness, Ford's future looks dim enough, and to get this kind of publicity can't help matters any. :sick:

    TagMan
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,356
    I got a little carried away with some of my posts earlier today. Thankfully Pat has removed them.

    Just so I am clear, I understand how you could have been offended and I apologize for that. Certainly I do not believe you made an intentional mistake. I had no malice in my heart when making those posts nor do I have any now. In my mind it was no more than a spirited debate. My bad.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    There's nothing silly about my predictions. I predicted that S class would be heavily discounted after the first couple model years, just like it did in previous generations. Many of you MB worshippers boldly claimed that this time would be different, and the car would hold up sales volume without discount. Well, the reality is proving even more pessimistic for S class than I predicted: it's being heavily discounted even in the first model year. I have no crystal balls, but we all know the historical score if we are willing to face the reality . . . and history is the only guide we have for what's to come in the future.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    That's what I thought. How could it possibly be a typo, when the manufacturer was placed in the "loser" section. It's not like some of us are having a robotic data collator moving whole paragraphs around for us based on the numbers that we type. It certainly was not a typo.

    The error was in citing from unrealible source. The post was quite intentional, not typographical error at all.

    That begs the question, why was it then later claimed to be a typo when the the number was called into question? It clearly wasn't a typo. For what it's worth, I make typos all the time. On top of that I make errors about facts too (remember that chemistry mix-up I had a few weeks ago?). Let's be honest about which is which. It's not a grave sin to make mistakes; we are all human. Covering up mistakes unnecessarily is what makes life tedius. My 16-month old is reluctant to speak because she is afraid of making mistakes (she talks through a bastardized version of American Sign language as it is much simpler); we all know that's just silly.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    Looks like Honda and Toyota are still maintaining a 20-25% fuel economy advantage over their competitors, despite the two brands migrating from purveyors of econoboxes to becoming full line manufacturers.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    Check and make sure that you are okay with the back seats not being able to fold flat. They are inclined even in the folded position. That was the big hold-up for me.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Tagman and Houdini,

    regarding that typo-- I take no offence whatsoever regarding all the posts that they triggered.

    I purposely used icons to express my views on sales growth for both Toyota and Lexus with the intention of tweaking some noses and not necessarily offending anyone.

    So lets move on......... to bigger and better debates.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Please refer to my last post. ;)
    And yup I am guilty as sin. :shades:
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Now it's, "my car is great, your car stinks, AND you are ignorant and dishonest"
    Those German fella's seem to be a little overbearing about their preferences.

    So much for debating bigger and better things. Now we got a historian here interpreting certain posts in a very unique way and providing character analyses (or should I say insults) of people who like German cars better than Lexuses. :surprise:

    Anyways congratulations for your two new autos. Great choice and I am sure both you and your wife will love those Lexuses.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    Currency exchange problem is a favorite whipping boy for managements who are riding their companies into the ground. The problem at BMW is far beyond the currency problem. Look at the full version of 2007 Interim Report that just came out in the last few days:

    http://www.bmwgroup.com/bmwgroup_prod/e/0_0_www_bmwgroup_com/investor_relations/- - - - - - - finanzberichte/zwischenberichte/2007/0607/_pdf/BMWGroup_Q2_online.pdf

    On page2, we have:

    Revenue up by 11% compared to same period a year ago;
    yet Operating cash flow down by a whopping 38%!!!

    As you correctly stated a couple weeks ago, if a company cooks books, it shows up in cash flows. There's our big flashing red light. If it's just a currency exchange problem shouldn't revenue and operating cash flow be in lock steps? both being affected by exchange rate fluctuations the same way. Book cooking is what's causing the vast divergence between the two.

    Then on Page 18, we have the explanation for which black hole the cash flow disappeared into:

    Net Assets
    The balance sheet total of BMW group increased by euro 6,671 million or 8.4% compared to 31 December 2006. Adjusted for chagnes in exchange rates, the balance sheet total would have increased by 9.1%. The main reason for this increase on the asset side of the balance sheet were leased-out products (+16.7%), inventories (+26.9%) and re-ceivables from sales financing (+8.3%).

    In other words, the company's cash flow is disappearing into piles of unsold and partially unsold (i.e. leased) cars as the company indulges in financial wizardry chalking up leased cars for revenue and profit when in reality the car is less than half sold, as the residual is more than half the car's nominal sale price.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    In other words, the company's cash flow woes is due to piling up unsold and partially unsold (i.e. leased) cars.

    BMW has cash flow woes?
    Do you even know what cash flow woes are?
    Haven't we discussed these 06 results many times over and over again in this forum?

    If it makes you happy to think that BMW has cash flow woes so be it.

    So to end this tedious discussion why dont I just say what you said in prior posts:

    Yes BMW has cash flow woes. BMW is in very serious financial trouble like Enron was. And it is doomed.

    There are you happy.

    Have a nice day.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    Cash flow down 38% is a pretty big drop, don't you think? Companies can make all the paper profit they can cook up, cash flow is what decides whether a company can remain a going concern.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    Certainly serious enough to negate any and all earlier claims of mushrooming profits, or the take-over-the-world aspiration. It's hard to take over the world with cooked up profits without real cash flow behind it.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Looks like Honda and Toyota are still maintaining a 20-25% fuel economy advantage over their competitors, despite the two brands migrating from purveyors of econoboxes to becoming full line manufacturers.

    That's an interesting take on the data... however, the primary focus is the disappointment with Toyota's participation and support with the "Detroit 3" to block the higher CAFE legislation that is in the works.

    It goes to show that Toyota is really just like them... and is looking after itself in order to manufacturer and sell more gas hogs in the form of bigg SUVs and trucks.

    This shows the two-face nature of Toyota,and it's just more proof that Honda is the genuine "green" Japanese company. Afterall, Toyota doesn't make the same profit on the hybrids. On the surface their hybrids make them look "green", but in those smoke-filled back rooms Toyota has been aggressively lobbying for gas guzzlers.

    TagMan
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    All issues have been addressed in Post 4528.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    A company's primary focus should be its own profitability. Toyota offers a full line of products, including full size trucks. If you want to call that "just like the Detroit 3," what's the sin in that? If people want to buy green cars, Toyota offers the greenest out there. If people's life necessities bring them to a full size truck, Toyota can offer that too, and with better fuel mileage. That's called choice. That's called freedeom. CAFE standard is pigheaded socialist government rule by fiat . . . but that's a different topic altogether, suffice to say that it's perfectly logical for Toyota to look after its own interest and pitch in to limit such dumb government policies. MB and BMW's decision seems to be ignoring CAFE altogether and pay fines every year.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    You don't see Honda in those back rooms. You know, a company CAN stand for something!

    Toyota has shown its true colors by lobbying for gas guzzlers. I'm not judging it, but I'm not ignoring it either.

    TagMan
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    Not at all. If you want to debate what I wrote, please at least read what I wrote. The Interim Report I referenced is not 2006 at all, but first half of 2007. It just came out in the last few days. The overall tone is a lot more pessimistic than the 2006 annual report that came out half a year ago. The numbers, especially the dramatic drop in cash flow, look very bad. As usual, I tend to sniff the bad odor relatively early. For what it's worth, I was telling family and friends to short the home builders back in the summer of 2005.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Too much gasoline and sparks for me today. I'm signing off for a while.
    TM
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    In that case, you are on record for praising gas guzzlers (S600, for example :-)

    Come on, let's stop the spin for a moment. Honda doesn't offer any full size trucks. Toyota is a full line manufacturer. If you want to spin "lobbying for gas guzzlers," I'd label Toyota "championing for American freedom." :-)
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    I have no idea why Dewey keeps bringing those financial info to this forum, when he doesn't want to do the detailed readings of those reports.
  • jcobyjcoby Member Posts: 140
    Congratulations on your purchases! Your wife will be very impressed with the RX350. I am currently driving the RX400h (imagine that, my LEXUS dealer allowed me to choose a $48,000+ vehicle as a loaner while I have a mere oil change performed on my vehicle) and it is very plush and cushy. While I prefer slightly firmer sedans (over SUVs), I can easily see how the RX pleases over 100,000 new owners each year in the USA. It is amazing just how luxurious and calm the ride considering that it is an SUV. If you don't mind me asking, what trim and major options did you choose for your LS460?
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    You both need to take any debate about financial reports OUT of this forum. Both of you have more than worn out that argument here.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    Sorry about the distraction. I happen to be stickler for sourcing and accuracies. Unfortunately we live in a world where the ignorant and/or manipulative have taken over the general purpose media, the secondary and tertiary sources are often full of obfuscations and spins fed by insiders. When faced with those lies (not necessarily lies by the posters themselves here, who are often either unwitting or opportunistic transceivers of such bad info), I can't help myself going to the primary source and bringing back some truth to share.
  • jcobyjcoby Member Posts: 140
    Thank you for that mea culpa. I posted a reply to Tagman just before I left for lunch and checked the board after work to find that over a dozen subsequent messages had been deleted. I do not know or care about what was said during that obviously testy exchange, but I am glad that things have been cleared up now as a result of it. :)
  • jcobyjcoby Member Posts: 140
    I fully agree. Some do not appreciate the importance of accuracy in reporting FACTS (and I am not trying to call anyone out on this board). When you are the injured party, it is very frustrating to have to spend energy correcting misinformation peddled by the careless and the dishonest.
  • atlas7atlas7 Member Posts: 126
    I ordered Black on Black, LS460. Loaded, ordered everything possible and then some. The Dynamic Radar/Cruise Control was special order. Wife gave Jr. her 3 series to take to college. I gave her my Acura MDX, she said it was too big and boxy, she traded it for the RX350 and I get the LS460. Can't wait for it to be delivered.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    I ordered Black on Black, LS460. Loaded, ordered everything possible and then some. The Dynamic Radar/Cruise Control was special order. Wife gave Jr. her 3 series to take to college. I gave her my Acura MDX, she said it was too big and boxy, she traded it for the RX350 and I get the LS460. Can't wait for it to be delivered.

    Congrats on the LS. At some point I'm going to have to retire my 430, and I will probably go in that direction as well. Heart says Quattroporte, but head says LS460, and the head usually wins those arguments. In any case, I'd much rather drive a Gran Turismo than a QP. 12mpg is a bit easier to swallow if its a weekend car, rather than a daily driver.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    The personally directed posts must stop. If you folks want to talk about the cars, please feel free, but this continuous underlying sniping at each other has got to stop. Posts are being deleted.
  • blckislandguyblckislandguy Member Posts: 1,150
    Volvo to a large extent invented the entry-level luxury full featured wagon segment with the V70. Lets take a look at the new '08 V70/XC70, the third generation of the brand's most important model. (I think 50% of all Volvos sold are wagons.)

    Automobile in their current issue (September, 07) has a quick preliminary review ("Driven") of the 2008 XC70 by Don Sherman. In a word, the car sounds awful at a time when this segment is getting more and more competitive. While the HP is up from 208 to 235HP, the performance is unchanged at best because the weight is up 400 pounds. While 4.2" longer, the cargo room in the back went from 37 cubic feet down to 33. The car is still directs 95% of the power to the front wheels in the dry. Gee, lets review: heavier, no faster, holds less, still FWD, ...This is progress??

    So, who will benefit? Suburu and now Saab with its smaller AWD 9-3 wagon for sure at the bottom end. But maybe also Audi with their good looking Avant.

    Is anyone home at Ford?
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,331
    Thanks. Appreciate the advice. :)

    The highly-touted MDX is even worse-big slope of the "floor" from front to rear!

    I'm not totally satisfied with any of BMW's offerings out there right now. The 335i is too small coming from a 5'er and the 535i reviews have been less than ecstatic. The X3 didn't pass the crash test. I would never drive a BMW that didn't. I have about 10 months to make a decision.

    Like I said, I will float an offer of $30k at BMWFS in May for the 545i. This comfortable, powerful car has behaved flawlessly and I don't see anything better out there. Low miles too! :)
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,356
    Atlas7, congratulations on the new rides. I took a little break and watched a couple of movies with the missus. "Astronaut Farmer" and "Thank you for Smoking". Guess who picked those out? But they were pretty good. I highly recommend the second one.

    I hope you and jcoby will stick around for a while to make these discussions a little less one sided. Your help and support is appreciated.

    Dewey, thanks for your reply and understanding. I am looking forward to future discussions.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    In a word, the car sounds awful at a time when this segment is getting more and more competitive. While the HP is up from 208 to 235HP, the performance is unchanged at best because the weight is up 400 pounds. While 4.2" longer, the cargo room in the back went from 37 cubic feet down to 33. The car is still directs 95% of the power to the front wheels in the dry. Gee, lets review: heavier, no faster, holds less, still FWD, ...This is progress??

    235hp simply does not cut it in a midsize luxury car, not when Toyotas, Nissans and even Hyundais have 270hp. Volvo should drop the NA 3.2 entirely, and use the turbo version as the entry-level engine on their cars. That still wouldn't be enough to catch the 300hp+ Infiniti, Lexus, BMW, or Cadillac engines, but it would be better than Audi's 3.1 and competitive with Merc's 3.5.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    There's a really great article in the NYT about Jay Leno's 98 year old electric car.

    “I have modern lead-acid batteries in the car now, but I can still run the original Edison batteries,” Mr. Leno said. “You can just rinse them out, replace the electrolyte, and they’re ready to go. They still work fine, after almost a hundred years.”

    “It’ll go for about four or five hours on a single charge, at about 20 to 25 miles an hour. Its range is about 110 miles, just about what most electric cars made these days will do. So we really haven’t come very far in a hundred years."

    image

    Link
  • jlbljlbl Member Posts: 1,333
    Fascinating car indeed.

    Moreover, I can imagine myself having a ride in it and raising my hat in order to greet passing-by people! (Quatro Porte and Gran Turismo may do the job as well.) ;)

    Apart from its being at the electric forefront, this car is appealing by its neat interior/exterior aspect. Near my home there is a RR museum plenty of old master pieces. One can spent hours looking at the robust mechanics and the silky interiors.

    Jose
    Gone for a driving week-end.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Fascinating car indeed.

    Of course the article doesn't mention that it produced about two horsepower. Weighing close to half a ton, I have to assume that acceleration on the way to the top speed of 20mph was a bit leisurely.
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,356
    Great article, thanks for posting. It is unbelievable and fascinating that 98 year old batteries could still work. It would make a great golf cart.

    What an elegant automobile! I can almost see Jose tipping his hat to the ladies as he stately motors by. :)

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

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