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Will Mercury soon be joining Plymouth and Oldsmobile?

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Comments

  • My guess is they may need to introduce a new marque if they want to bring Euro Fords here - similar to Saturn. Of course they can sell it as Mercury. The only problem with it that people do not expect Mercury to cost a lot more than Ford. They cannot sell Euro Fords as Lincoln eigther because Euro Fords are not luxury cars. They are pretty mainstream. Of course they can make it luxury like Honda did with Acura. But still somehow it may cheapen Lincoln image even further. Acura does not has a heritage or baggage while Linoln has a lot of it. It cannot be just another compact car.
  • ehaaseehaase Posts: 328
    My guess is that Ford's North American car lineup (if the company still exists) is eventually going to be European Fords built in Mexico. The next Fusion will be substantially the same car as the Mondeo. I think Ford is in horrible financial condition, and it will not be the same company we know in 5 years.
  • bigo08bigo08 Posts: 102
    i hope your wrong :sick:
  • Americans love their big cars. I cannot believe Ford can sell European cars here and prosper. Both Toyota and Honda design cars for America, they do not sell European models here. Camry does not sell well in Europe because it is essentially an American car. European Accord is smaller and more expensive than American one. Well Ford wants to be niche player like VW then may be.
  • nvbankernvbanker Posts: 7,285
    Ford just needs to make some money somehow - period. That may necessitate some interim moves that don't always make a lot of us happy, but if they can sell some cars - they have to do it.

    My strategy, and I think ARMs too is; repair the Ford reputation by making high quality, high value mainstream cars in North America. They have to get some style out there NOW, that pops, so people will buy them in droves. Mustang style.
  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Posts: 2,437
    Americans love every kind of car...and truck. They like choice. Volvo sells well here. Mercedes C Class is popular. The BMW 3 series is very successful here. All smaller than Camry. Kia, Hyundai, Honda all do ok with smaller vehicles. The 08 Mondeo would be a knockout hit here (and it is sized like a Camry room-wise), and the European Focus would sell better than the present American one. Camry does not sell well in Europe because it is a boring sedan, not because of its length or width. If there is any Ford I want to buy, it is the Mondeo.
  • nvbankernvbanker Posts: 7,285
    I chased a Mondeo on I-15 once - man it was movin'!! The EuroFocus would be too expensive to compete here and would be unappealing at the price point it would need to be sold at. Don't know what a Mondeo would sell for, but if you really want one, import one. It can be done.
  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Posts: 2,437
    I don't want one badly enough to pay that kind of money. I'd certainly pay a premium over a Fusion, but there are too many other choices to mess around with gray market stuff.

    And as for the EuroFocus being too expensive, there are several responses that come to mind. First, we now know it would have been CHEAPER for Ford to base the 08 Focus on the European archtiecture than to do what they did. The alleged "too expensive" message was propaganda for "let's see if we can get at least 8 years out of each generation, and then just reskin it...the cost savings will really help the bottom line." (NOT.) Also, there are Euro small cars and hatchbacks that sell for high prices and succeed in their niches. The VW R32 comes to mind and the EuroFocus has a model to match it.

    So, I want Ford to offer a Mercury Mondeo, and a couple other Euro models that are different from most offerings here. Maybe an Australian Falcon reclothed as a G Markee...
  • ehaaseehaase Posts: 328
    The EuroFocus would be too expensive to compete here and would be unappealing at the price point it would need to be sold at.

    They would be cheaper if built in Mexico.
  • ehaaseehaase Posts: 328
    Americans love their big cars.

    As an owner of a 2004 Crown Victoria, I love big cars more than anyone. But higher fuel prices and higher CAFE standards (because of this global warming propaganda I don't believe, but most do) will mean the end of the big cars we love. I don't want to get off on an political tangent, but some say a war with Iran means $100/barrel oil and $5.00/fuel. How do GM and Ford compete with Toyota and Honda with 35 mpg CAFE and/or $5.00 gasoline.
  • nvbankernvbanker Posts: 7,285
    The Hummer is in big trouble.....if that happens. I also don't buy the Global Warming propaganda - I think it's just the media that has signed off on it now, not sure "most do". So, that being the case, I think a Crown Vic, which gets great mileage, btw, is safe. It'll be the SUVs that will take a dump first. I am also a big car lover - so I feel ur pain. Mercury would remain unaffected - but if Mercury becomes not needed to sustain Lincoln dealers, like if Lincoln dealers were also given say, Volvo or Mazda to sell along side all of the EmmKays, then Mercury could go the way of Plymouth. Not the worst idea.

    If I ran Ford - that's exactly what I would look into doing. Give the Volvo Dealers Lincoln franchises too, and the Lincoln Mercury Dealers Volvo franchises, maybe Mazda too, and let Mercury goooooo.
  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Posts: 2,437
    Yeah, I guess there isn't much hope for Mercury, no matter how you cut it.
  • jkr2106jkr2106 Posts: 235
    Yea, I guess not :cry:

    Does anyone know if ARM has said anything specific about his plans for Mercury. I know many on these boards advocate bringing Euro Fords here as Mercury's to justify the price premium (and I agree), but has he said anything at all about the brand's future?
  • I do not know anyone who believes in global warming - everyone I know ridicules the idea and note that I live in SF Bay area. But American people somehow managed to put SF liberals into control of house during war and now have to face consequences. But as soon as they start to feel pain brought by higher taxes and fuel prices as well as slowing down economy because of C02 regulations they will change their mind. I still think American people believe in economic freedom, growth and common sense in general.

    Volvo buyers will not like idea of tainting reputation of fine European marque by associatiing it with lowly Lincoln or Ford.

    And BTW Lincoln buyers are already unhappy that Lincoln had become higher trim version of Mazda. Well nice idea to bring Mazda into Lincoln dealership and kill whatever left of Lincoln reputation. I once walked into Lincoln/Mercury/Kia dealership and left immediately when sleazy sale person approached me talking about good deals on Kia.
  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Posts: 2,437
    I have thought, since abandoning some of the propaganda and booga booga instilled in me as a child, that most of these contentious questions can be researched. There are many, many unanswered questions, but I almost always find it surprising how much is really known about a subject...and how little the populace seems to realize the level understanding already existing. I try not to believe in anything, so much as to either know about something, or know that I do not know.

    I wonder how many "sleazy" salespeople have killed Lincoln/Mercury sales, and if that contributes as much as not having exciting products? Look at all the people who have bought Saturns (no haggle, customers treated with respect) over the years. It was only recently that they started building anything but the most mediocre of cars.
  • grbeckgrbeck Posts: 2,361
    An industry insider (I believe that he is an analyst) who posts on other messageboards has said that Mercury is gone, once Lincoln can take up the slack.

    Note that no show cars with the Mercury nameplate have been featured this year (or last year, if I recall correctly). Every future product we've seen from Mercury so far is an update of an existing product.

    On sites such as blueovalnews.com, I'm not reading anything about new Mercury versions of upcoming new models. The new Fairlane-based people mover has a Lincoln version, but nothing from Mercury.

    As for offering Euro-Fords under the Mercury nameplate - it would never work for several reasons.

    One, Lincoln Mercury dealers have no idea how to sell them.

    Two, a Lincoln Mercury dealer is the last place most buyers of that type of vehicle would ever shop. (Maybe the next-to-last place, after the Buick dealer.)

    Three, these Euro-Mercurys would be considerably more expensive than traditional Mercury products. They would compete in the near-luxury market. No matter how good these vehicles are, near-luxury buyers would prefer the prestige of a BMW or Mercedes nameplate.
  • nvbankernvbanker Posts: 7,285
    BTW Lincoln buyers are already unhappy that Lincoln had become higher trim version of Mazda.

    You are damn well right about that!! And I'm one of them who is mad about it..... That Zephyr is a really nice Mazda 6. But it's not a Lincoln, or what a Lincoln should be.

    Volvo buyers will not like idea of tainting reputation of fine European marque by associatiing it with lowly Lincoln or Ford.

    I had not thought of that - but you're right. It won't work. Do you think Mazda could be sold with Volvo?
  • ehaaseehaase Posts: 328
    No matter how good these vehicles are, near-luxury buyers would prefer the prestige of a BMW or Mercedes nameplate.

    That's one reason for the collapse of Mercury, Buick, Oldsmobile, and Pontiac. People would prefer a low end BMW, Lexus, or Mercedes than a top of the line Buick.
  • grbeckgrbeck Posts: 2,361
    Sad part is that if GM, Ford and Chrysler hadn't spent the 1970s and 1980s cheapening their medium-price brands (through badge engineering and giving them vehicles in every segment to sell), they would be in a good position to capture these buyers.
  • lemkolemko Philadelphia, PAPosts: 15,306
    That's exactly opposite of what I prefer. I'd much rather get a nice, big,loaded Mercury Grand Marquis LS than a teeny-tiny Lexus IS, BMW 3-Series, or Mercedes C-Class. Geeze, I can't even fit in the back seat of that IS.
  • lemkolemko Philadelphia, PAPosts: 15,306
    Well, I had both a 1979 Buick Park Avenue and a 1979 Oldsmobile Ninety-Eight Regency and thought they were really nice cars. I didn't like the fact that Olds and Buick sold crappy cars like the Skyhawk and Firenza those years. They cheapened the brands, but the dealers were crying, "Oh, we don't have a subcompact to sell!" So GM cobbled these things together.

    What really killed it for Buick and Olds were the radically downsized FWD C and B bodies of 1985-86. Heck, a Chevrolet Caprice Classic looked preferable to these shrunken abominations. Funny I have one now. It actually is a decent car, but it is not really a Park Avenue in my mind. I would've never purchased one new back in the day.
  • bumpybumpy Posts: 4,435
    Geeze, I can't even fit in the back seat of that IS.

    Do you often drive your cars from the back seat?
  • w9cww9cw Posts: 888
    My wife and I just bought a Mercury for the first time, albeit a used one, for our daughter who's in grad school. Sounds like it may be an orphan in the near future . . .

    Oh well, it only has to get her through the next two to three years, and the 2001 Sable LS Premium with leather and all of the bells and whistles is really a nice car - so far. No former rental, it was owned by the proverbial "old lady," and only had 36K on the clock, and has the DuraTec 3.0L and the better of the two available transmissions. Of course, the latter - I hear - is not saying much.

    Paid $6K, and just mentally added that figure to the big bucks we're spending for grad school tuition.
  • andre1969andre1969 Posts: 23,496
    Do you often drive your cars from the back seat?

    Well the IS is so cramped that taking out the front buckets and then driving it from the back seat would be an improvement! :P

    But in all fairness, I didn't think it was any worse than a BMW 3-series. I was shocked though, at how roomy the latest Benz C-class cars are. I pretty much consider the IS/3-series to be a 2-seater with a leather-clad package shelf in back, but I remember actually being able to fit in the back of the C-class at the auto shows.

    I rarely ride in the back seat of my own car, but I do regularly carry back seat passengers. And if their knees are constantly banging into my seatback, it's not going to make my drive very comfortable.
  • nvbankernvbanker Posts: 7,285
    What really killed it for Buick and Olds were the radically downsized FWD C and B bodies of 1985-86. Heck, a Chevrolet Caprice Classic looked preferable to these shrunken abominations. Funny I have one now. It actually is a decent car, but it is not really a Park Avenue in my mind. I would've never purchased one new back in the day.

    Interesting, Lemko - because those Cs and Bs were my favorite GM cars of all time, and when they started changing their dynamics, that's when I left and went to Ford. I bought plenty of those C-Bodies from 85 starting with a Park Avenue through 91, with another Park Avenue, and some Olds 88s, and 98, a Bonneville and a LeSabre in between..... To this day, I think they were the most efficient sedan design ever. They were cavernous inside, with big trunks, spunky V-6 engines, good mileage and a great high driving position. The 91 re-design killed all of that, and I didn't like my 91, so in 92, I went to Lincoln. Of course, some C-body Cadillacs contributed to my discontent, specifically, an 85 and a 87.
  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Posts: 2,437
    Yes, I think they were an amazing design for the time. A little too boxy and angular for my taste, but the interior room was amazing for the exterior size. All the 91's did was add longer overhangs and more rounded contours. Larger car but no more room.
  • andre1969andre1969 Posts: 23,496
    Interesting, Lemko - because those Cs and Bs were my favorite GM cars of all time, and when they started changing their dynamics, that's when I left and went to Ford.

    I think the problem with those downsized GM FWDers is that, while they did have a lot of good qualities, like the good space efficiency, decent comfort, etc, most of the types that normally went for something like an Electra, Ninety Eight, etc, just viewed these downsized models as too small. They could hold 4 big people in comfort as well as their mammoth forebears, and in all fairness, could probably hold 6 almost as well. They didn't have the shoulder room of the older cars, but once you factor in driveshaft/tranny humps, a split front seat, armrests, and contouring, those bigger cars really weren't the best 6-seaters in the world, either.

    When the downsized C-bodies came out for 1985, they did outsell the previous RWD 1984 models by a wide margin, but it must be remembered that the FWD models came out early, while the 1984 models were cut short. And the 1980-83 timeframe was not good to big cars in general, although considering the times, the C-bodies sold very well.

    Another problem is that the first few years of the C-body, as well as the H-body (LeSabre, 88, Bonneville), were very troubleprone. I think it was around 1988 that they got most of the bugs worked out, but by that time a lot of the damage had been done. In contrast, those older RWD cars tended to be sturdy and reliable, as long as you stayed away from stuff like the Diesel or the 252 CID Buick V-6.

    The 1985 RWD LeSabre and Delta 88 sold very strongly, no doubt partly because they snared a lot of buyers who would have otherwise bought an Electra/98, had they remained big and RWD. That was the main reason my grandparents bought an '85 LeSabre. They wanted an Electra, partly because there was this old guy at church who had an '82 or so. But when they found out it was downsized and FWD, they went for the LeSabre. Granddad used to work on cars and hated FWD because of its complexity, so that was one thing that probably factored into their decision as well.

    When the downsized '86 LeSabre/88 came out, LeSabre sales remained about pat with 1985, but the 88 fell off sharply, and began a slow downward slide to oblivion. For some reason though, the LeSabre remained fairly popular. I'm sure the JD power awards it started getting helped considerably, but it seems to me that if the 88 was the same car underneath, then why didn't it enjoy the same reputation?

    I have an old 1985 Consumer Guide that has tests of a 1985 FWD DeVille, 98, and Electra, as well as a RWD V-8 LeSabre, Parisienne, Delta, and a V-6 Caprice. Interestingly, the bigger RWD cars actually had a TIGHTER turning circle! Acceleration was also the same (0-60 in about 12 seconds, although they didn't list the V-6 Caprice's time), and fuel economy was around the same, ~15-17 in Consumer Guide's testing. However, as the 3.8 V-6 was improved, so was performance and fuel economy. In 1985 it only had 125 hp and about 200 ft-lb of torque, whereas those V-8's were 140 (307) or 165 (305) and had ~245-255 ft-lb of torque, more than enough to make up for the increased weight of the bigger cars.

    But now, comparing the downsized C-body to the previous C-body, rather than a B-body, there probably was a more noticeable difference. My Consumer Guide also has a test of a 1985 Fleetwood Brougham with the 4.1 V-8. 0-60 came up in a leisurely 14.8 seconds, and they had to gear the hell out of it to get that (3.42:1 rear, whereas the B-body V-8's used 2.56 or 2.73:1 rears). Fuel economy was pretty bad too, but I forget their average.

    In retrospect, I think these downsized C- and H-bodies might have made better midsized car replacements than full-sized cars. They would have been a good replacement for something like the RWD "G" body Cutlass Supreme/Regal/Bonneville sedans. Even if they did offer a lot of improvements over the bigger cars they replaced, they lacked the one thing that most big car buyers want: BIG-ness!
  • lemkolemko Philadelphia, PAPosts: 15,306
    I'm aware of off those good qualities of the cars as I have a 1988 Buick Park Avenue myself. They just don't LOOK like their stately, elegant RWD V-8 powered predecessors. They're just too teeny and delicate looking compared to what came before. They look less than the cars that came before. Those downsized C-body Cadillacs almost scared me away from Cadillac forever. I was a sophomore in college when they debuted. I've always loved Cadillac and was afraid I'd have nothing to look forward to owning upon graduating. Fortunately, Cadillac was smart enough to keep the big RWD Brougham around for a few more years. Cadillac didn't really address its problems with the FWD C-body until 1989.
  • nvbankernvbanker Posts: 7,285
    Cadillac didn't really address its problems with the FWD C-body until 1989.

    Which - after an 85 and an 87, was too late for me. I did buy a 90, but only kept it a year, and got a Lincoln. At that point, I was done with GM.

    I am, shopping for an Avalanche at the auction today, however.....reasons? It's the only animal of its kind, and I need one. Or an Escalanche, no difference to me.
  • scape2scape2 Posts: 4,124
    Kill Mercury. Ford needs the cash and all a Mercury is is a rebadged Ford. Back in the 50's/60's Mercury had its own identity. Ford should kill Mercury, put the money into Lincoln and build a luxo brand to rival Acura/BMW/Lexus ect.. Look at Cadillac, wow what a comeback. Ford needs to change and be able to roll with the punches coming from both sides of the pond. By the way, I'm a Ford fan.. ;)
This discussion has been closed.