Are automobiles a major cause of global warming?

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Comments

  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    All you AlGore haters are gonna LOVE this story:

    Gore-backed Hara sees profit from low-carbon economy
  • oldfarmer50oldfarmer50 Member Posts: 24,324
    "...ABC had a show on tonite about the future. Rising sea levels..."

    What a coincidence. The History channel has been running a bunch of similar fear-mongering stuff about CC also. I think the script was written by Al Gore. It is an incredible mix of facts and leaps of logic that end up being a complete fraud.

    And at the commercial break, the World Wildlife Federation (they made the World Wrestling Federation give up the WWF initials) was telling lies about how the polar bears were dying. Of course the only way to save the cuddly baby bears was to write a check to WWF. I'd rather send mine to the wrestlers, they're not as fake.

    It is interesting that this hype is all on at the same time. Do you think someone is trying to influence the upcoming debate?

    2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible

  • oldfarmer50oldfarmer50 Member Posts: 24,324
    "...9 million passengers rode a bus or train without feces today..."

    Just wait until you see your future energy bills, everybody will be filling their pants!

    And if you think all your conservation measures will protect you from what's to come, think again. Where do you think the homeless hungry former working class is going to go to scavenge food? And if Ted Turner is right, YOU might be the main course. :cry:

    2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible

  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Was there EVER a doubt in your mind that Al Gore was into GW for anything but the MONEY? If so he pulled the wool over your eyes as he has millions of sheep in this country. There is good evidence that it was concocted to increase taxes at least 2 decades ago. Remember Enron played a big role in this whole scheme. They hired your darling scientist Hanson to be in on the ground floor.

    Al Gore IS a charlatan. His dad was as corrupt a politician as he is. He is so disliked in his own state that it cost him the Presidency in 2000. If he really believes the crap he spews, he would not go through life with a carbon footprint the size of Kansas.
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,356
    Gosh, now look at who's a conspiracy nut !!!

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Is this the beginning of the end for the belief in man-made GW?

    NASA Study Acknowledges Solar Cycle, Not Man, Responsible for Past Warming
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    No Way !!

    I'll never be a conspiracy nut !!!
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    the "power police" allow this:

    Vampire power costs
    By Lori Bongiorno

    link title
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    The inconvertible fact, here is that even NASA's own study acknowledges that solar variation has caused climate change in the past. And even the study's members, mostly ardent supports of AGW theory, acknowledge that the sun may play a significant role in future climate changes.

    It will take a lot more than facts to change many minds that are convinced man is the main cause of Climate Change. The GW Cult was founded on data models generated by computers. Computers that are only as good as the data input. MM GW is a direct result of:
    GIGO
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    So you always prefer to take the train or the bus rather than a plane, and avoid using a car whenever you can, faithful to the belief that this inflicts less harm to the planet.

    Well, there could be a nasty surprise in store for you, for taking public transport may not be as green as you automatically think, says a new US study.

    Its authors point out an array of factors that are often unknown to the public.

    These are hidden or displaced emissions that ramp up the simple "tailpipe" tally, which is based on how much carbon is spewed out by the fossil fuels used to make a trip.

    Environmental engineers Mikhail Chester and Arpad Horvath at the University of California at Davis say that when these costs are included, a more complex and challenging picture emerges.

    In some circumstances, for instance, it could be more eco-friendly to drive into a city -- even in an SUV, the bete noire of green groups -- rather than take a suburban train. It depends on seat occupancy and the underlying carbon cost of the mode of transport.

    The paper points out that the "tailpipe" quotient does not include emissions that come from building transport infrastructure -- railways, airport terminals, roads and so on -- nor the emissions that come from maintaining this infrastructure over its operational lifetime.

    These often-unacknowledged factors add substantially to the global-warming burden.

    In fact, they add 63 percent to the "tailpipe" emissions of a car, 31 percent to those of a plane, and 55 percent to those of a train.

    And another big variable that may be overlooked in green thinking is seat occupancy.

    A saloon (sedan) car or even an 4x4 that is fully occupied may be responsible for less greenhouse gas per kilometer travelled per person than a suburban train that is a quarter full, the researchers calculate.


    http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=CNG.243153c6a091a3b942a75077729e8c92.c51- &show_article=1
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    This is not really news. We already knew that "unfilled" mass transit had the potential to be more polluting than other methods.

    I just read the PDF at this link and they did not take CNG buses into account.

    CNG buses pollute far less than diesel buses, and diesel was the only bus used in the testing.

    Remember: in no situations did the study show that one person in one car is a less-polluting method of transport.

    THAT dynamic is what we need to avoid at all costs - the "one person one car commuter" is the enemy of clean air.

    Unless they are driving a PZEV car. Then they can be excused.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    A study, by design is not really news. The report of it can be or just something long awaited. So if you are trying to say this should be fresh news, you would be incorrect. So as an example, CNG buses for the places studied could have been a no show to late addition.

    ..."THAT dynamic is what we need to avoid at all costs - the "one person one car commuter" is the enemy of clean air."....

    Strange how you left out the less than full mass transit modality. Many times I have been the only one to less than half a dozen passengers on a 90-200 passenger mass transit modality.

    Again it is by design that no one has done scientifically validated studies of the daily air quality for say a years measurement i.e., with the recent 3.8% decrease in total US miles and its effect/affect.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Unless they are driving a PZEV car. Then they can be excused.

    Why is that? The only time the hybrid is ZEV is on electric only. You know that is very little of the time. The rest of the time it pollutes as much as all the other PZEV cars. Single commuting in a PZEV is worse than two commuting in a non PZEV car. To bring it closer to home. Two people in a V6 Camry will pollute less than one person in a Camry Hybrid. We all are able to justify our actions. Even Al Gore has some how justified his mega carbon foot print. Or does he really even care?

    Now to your original premise. What percentage of mass transit buses are CNG vs diesel? I know the buses that come through my town are ALL diesel. And rarely carrying more than 3-4 people. In fact the ridership is so light they have cut some of the routes and frequency. Most of the San Diego buses in the city are CNG. I would be surprised if 10% of the nations mass transit is CNG. That would make the study comprehensive.

    I thought their example of San Francisco transit was a bit misleading as most of their electricity comes from the Springs geothermal generation. Which I believe is one of the best alternatives to fossil fuel. However your eco wacko enviro types have blocked much of the geothermal areas from developing this wonderful source of Clean energy.

    Latest count:
    Solar, wind, hydro and Geothermal blocked in many areas of the USA. Nuclear blocked completely. That means most of the new power coming online is natural gas or Coal.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    ruking1 says, "Strange how you left out the less than full mass transit modality"

    The individual person (you and I) has no control over how full or empty a bus can be or is.

    We have total control over whether or not we commute alone.

    There are millions of people who COULD carpool but DON'T because they are too lazy to look into it. THAT is the problem.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    There are millions of people who COULD carpool but DON'T because they are too lazy to look into it. THAT is the problem.

    It is a problem. Far from the only problem. As we pointed out a partially filled mass transit is also a problem. One that should have been addressed long ago. We don't start the bus engine until the last seat is filled.

    Which brings me to another observation that I made just yesterday. Our local restaurant is the favorite place the sheriffs deputies eat breakfast. While we were there two Crown Vics and an Expedition sat in the parking lot idling. I am sure to keep all the radio gear going. They were in there just over one hour. How many cop cars around the nation sit for hours idling? I would imagine in Phoenix they do it to keep the car cool while having a cup of coffee and a donut. Maybe conservation needs to start with our government. Not dump all the blame on the citizens.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Solar, wind, hydro and Geothermal blocked in many areas of the USA. Nuclear blocked completely.

    I don't keep very close track but I have family that works for TVA, and Watts Bar #2 (a nuke) is under construction after a ~20 year delay (blamed on cheap energy making it uneconomical) with a completion date of 2011.

    Watts Bar is near Chattanooga, home of the free electric shuttle buses that run between the Choo Choo and the Aquarium every 5 minutes. Gee, nukes are so cheap, the electricity is free. How about that? :shades:
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    There are millions of people who COULD carpool but DON'T because they are too lazy to look into it. THAT is the problem.

    Wonder about "millions" and do not believe that laziness is involved. Could it be that people would rather not have to be tied down to a somewhat strict schedule/regimen required of a carpool? When you drive yourself, you have flexibility in making the commute and in making various stops (shopping, doctors, etc) after working hours. Also, there is the privacy factor. Don't have to talk, listen, make conversation with someone in the car/suv.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Gary says, "why is that"

    Because a PZEV car is the least a person alone can pollute, that's why.

    There has to be a bottom line.

    Gary says, "Two people in a V6 Camry will pollute less than one person in a Camry Hybrid. "

    Clarified: more pollution PER PERSON for the single hybrid driver - not TOTAL pollution produced.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Well, we all have to sacrifice sometimes for the greater good.

    Phoenix and other big cities have "Ride Share" programs. I was in it for a while. You
    are not required to "talk" to the other person at all.

    You are already "tied down" to a regimen if you drive to work and back every day at the same time, which includes MILLIONS of American workers who drive alone.

    Why not meet at a "park and ride" near your house and pick someone up who is going to the same building, the same block, or the same business complex you are going to?

    Saves gas for both parties, eliminates pollution, reduces gridlock on the roads.

    The "lazy" comment refers to the fact that YES, it takes a little bit of work to SEEK OUT a ride share or carpool program, and many people are just too lazy (they'd say BUSY but the truth is what it is) to worry about it.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    This looks promising:

    CONCENTRATING SOLAR POWER SET TO GROW

    Will offset a lot of coal burning.
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,356
    Hmmmm....makes you think that just maybe all these "greenies" doing the blocking are secretly on the payroll of big oil.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Will offset a lot of coal burning.

    That is a very small generation system. It will only supply 73,000 homes. They have built more than that just South of Phoenix in the last few years. It is doubtful that it will keep up with the demand over the time frame to build it. The one that was supposed to be in operation for San Diego in 2008 has not even been started yet. I think it is the same company. I don't think ours had the molten salt to store the heat. We will see if it ever gets off the ground. The people trying to block a powerline to the desert to supply San Diego with solar energy may win their battle to block the line. They consider it a fire hazard crossing highly flammable areas of San Diego County. The last two big fires was caused by power lines going down in high winds. San Diego Gas & Electric is not going to be able to meet the CA deadline for alternative energy. They keep adding wind generators up on Indian land where the enviro wackos have NO say. It is a win for the tribe and SDG&E. The only bright spot on our alternative future.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Another good reason to avoid mass transit at any cost.

    Members of the Rail Maritime and Transport union (RMT) walked out at 7pm - at the start of a stoppage which is expected to cause travel chaos across the capital.

    The union believes the entire network to come to a halt, causing huge problems for millions of commuters and visitors, and costing businesses tens of millions of pounds.

    Leaders of the union met London Underground (LU) managers at the offices of the conciliation service Acas all day.

    But they failed to find a breakthrough in time to stop the strike going ahead.

    The dispute is over pay, jobs and disciplinary issues, including the sacking of two drivers.


    Two canned drivers put MILLIONS of commuters in limbo. If they had cars they could thumb their noses at Mass Transit. I am thankful I was Never a victim of Mass Transportation, other than Airlines. Which I have a few stories to tell with over a million miles flown.

    Tube Strike idles millions of commuters
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    lol, if you think it's hard parking in San Diego, you haven't seen New York. And New York is a breeze compared to London.

    Actually the entire city core would be a parking lot if everyone tried to drive to work, even carpooling.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Right now the only real alternative given the fights over1. "new rights of way" 2. nuclear 3. non nuclear 4. etc etc is each user to generate some to a surplus of electrical power needs. Obviously one would make up the difference, to sell the surplus back through the existing infrastructure.

    The old infrastructure however needs untold BILLIONS in repairs and untold billions more for "upgrades".

    Of course there are even still HUGE obstacles to that even given 30 years of hot air about the subject.

    It's a real joke. You wonder how the "greenie"and ultra liberal city of Cupertino, CA, up until the time it hit the liberal press, charged 11-12k for JUST the permit portion of the solar process..... The city manager was direct to "rethink" the issue.....
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    NYC - the most successful mass transit system in the USA.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Funny, Gary.

    You think Europeans are so smart for driving diesel cars.

    They embrace mass transit too.

    So are they smart for one idea, stupid for another?
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,356
    LOL, they don't have much choice on mass transit with gas and diesel taxes at $6. or $7. a gallon. I suppose you think that would be a good idea here?

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,561
    I wonder how many cars worth of emissions the landscaping crew of debatably legal residence just emitted with their leafblowers at they spent an hour playing around tending to the tiny lawn at my building. The whole place smells like exhaust fumes like it does every time they screw around.

    Will this ever be targeted?
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    It would please me in a way to have gas prices that high here, yes it would.

    It would drive innovation and drive people into smaller cars. It would lower pollution. It would drive me into an electric car. It would increase the sales of clean diesel vehicles. It would force automakers to bring more clean diesel options to our shores. It would force automakers to put AVAILABLE fuel efficient technology into cars. It would hasten battery improvements for plug-in hybrids and electric cars.

    I'm not opposed to higher prices in that regard. Personally, I own a TCH and higher prices affect me less so than the average Joe.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    just emitted with their leafblowers

    The sooner they are outlawed the better. I use a large shop vac with big wheels to clean leaves and my driveway. Works great and is quiet. Then dump all the debris into the trash for PU. Where do people think the leaves, trash and dirt goes when they just blow it off the walk? I hate those things. And I doubt they have any emissions controls. Straight two cycle gas engines.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,561
    We agree on something...will wonders ever cease? :P

    What gets me the most is the guy will spend a half an hour with the leaf blower, playing around on the quarter block the front of my building occupies, blowing the leaves and dirt onto the street - and passing cars blow much of it right back up on the sidewalk.

    I suspect that machine puts out more pollution in an hour than a normal modern car does in weeks.

    This crap along with commercial vehicles needs to be targeted as much as any private cars. Business owners have been getting away with too much for too long.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,561
    There are these things called brooms and rakes that people can use if a vacuum doesn't reach, too - one might not reach where the landscapers go here Seems like it would take barely more time, and actually be more pleasant - no ear protection, probably no eye protection needed, no junk blowing around, no fumes.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Once again California leads the way. Starting in LA and now banned in at least 20 other cities there (and that was in '06). And the ban has spread to cities and towns across the country. A Growing Clamor Over Leaf Blowers (Washington Post)
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    To me redistributing the debris and dust is more of an issue than the noise. Though I hate the noise also. It is right up there with young people and their boom box cars that should be run out of town. So going electric really just masks the problem. It does eliminate the pollution from the gas engine. In my area the gas weed whacker is more of the noise on a spring day. They do have some with emissions devices. I use an old fashioned manual hoe to get at the roots. Harder work but done less often.

    I just did a bit of research on using the constantly falling oak leaves as mulch. I was told they would kill plants. Does not seem to be true unless the plant does not like acid soil. With more than a dozen oak trees I get a fair amount of leaves. Some areas I don't mess with and the leaves seem to discourage weed growth. I will try it.
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,356
    I thought as much. There you have the basic difference in our thoughts and attitudes. Neither of us is right or wrong, just different opinions. I prefer to have the latitude to make my own decisions and you obviously want to have your decisions made for you.

    While we are increasing taxes we might as well go ahead and increase taxes on food so that it costs 4 or 5 times as much as it does now. Good way to fight the obesity epidemic that is sweeping the nation.

    We are also using way too much electricity and natural gas to heat and cool our homes. Let's make it tough on those rascals who selfishly want to stay warm or cool. Up those taxes by 9 or 10 times.

    Just think of all the ways our government could put this increased revenue to good use by passing out free money to our financial institutions so that they could grow more and have the money to lobby for increased fees and interest rates, etc.

    Before long our dream of living in a utopia would be realized and we could be just like any other third world country.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    There are these things called brooms and rakes that people can use if a vacuum doesn't reach, too - one might not reach where the landscapers go here

    Depends on how long/large the sidewalk or driveway. I use my JD rider with 48" inch deck to blow any leaves or grass clippings off hard surfaces and onto grass. Much, much faster than walking around with a 2-cycle leaf blower. This JD is 4-cycle, water cooled, 6-years old, hopefully with not too-bad emissions. Never smell/see any fumes, except on start-up. OTOH, my 20-year old JD diesel is pretty smelly. Has govt started to put regs on emissions of tractors, mowers, other machinery? If so, and cleaner JD diesels, would like to see them offer a $4500 rebate to update old Deere to new one, of course Made in the USA. This would be good stimulus to US industry.

    Got to wonder to what extent homeowners and farmers/producers contribute to "alleged" global warming with their motorized machinery. How does this compare to cars.
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    I just did a bit of research on using the constantly falling oak leaves as mulch. I was told they would kill plants.

    If Oak tree has a fungus such as Oak Wilt, only safe course is too bury or burn the leaves and not return them to soil in area of Oak trees. Was told this after taking in samples of leaves from a few Oak trees (having wilt) to U of Illinois county extension service.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    You are analogizing apples versus oranges.

    People NEED food to survive. People NEED electricity and natural gas for heating and cooling their homes to survive.

    Many people do NOT need to drive a car, alone, to work. They just choose to do so for SELFISH reasons.

    I'm against allowing people to be selfish when it comes to issues which affect other people, and when it is something I KNOW from personal experience that they can do. I can buy a hybrid. I can take the bus and the light rail. I can carpool. Many other people CAN also but choose not to, for no good reason other than "it's easy."
  • euphoniumeuphonium Member Posts: 3,425
    at my building

    Well, if it's your building, why do you hire them?
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,561
    They are hired for price, no doubt. It's not my building, I wasn't born with a silver spoon in my mouth unlike the kinfolk who own a little fiefdom that includes where I live. But, it beats owning a condo that might be worth 30% less than when I moved to the area.

    But they do come no matter the weather, no matter if the grass needs to be cut or not.
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    I'm against allowing people to be selfish when it comes to issues which affect other people,

    Against "allowing"? Suppose this fits in with current Admin direction in deciding what is good or bad for Americans, including the cars they drive and "maybe" whether they should even be "allowed" to drive at all.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    It's a difficult position to explain, I know. Sorry. :)

    Just like the government mandates seatbelts and helmets in places, which is technically "not allowing people to be stupid," I think that higher gas prices would "mandate" that people look into alternatives to the dreaded "one car, one person" commute.

    You can't ban it. You can only hope to discourage it.
  • kernickkernick Member Posts: 4,072
    I think that higher gas prices would "mandate" that people look into alternatives to the dreaded "one car, one person" commute.

    But that discriminates based on income! It affects and hurts lower income people, while higher income people probably don't care (aren't affected) much. It is not fair. And for people who can barely make their $ last from check-to-check, a higher cost of gas will force some to quit driving, and for people in rural areas commuting together and public transportation are not options.

    It is ridiculous to hurt and penalize people here in the U.S., when the oil/gasoline saved here will simply be used by the growing populations in the rest of the world.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Indeed.

    It is actually far easier for those that are anti car, choice, oil, anti anti, etc to give the amount they would spend in car related products to the IRS.gov. monthly, quarterly, half yearly, yearly, bi annually. :P Now that would be a real statement !!! They'd be pioneers and probably get more free press for that kind of stunt than the eco terrorists.....
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Inflation does that too. And so does high employment.

    I don't think the lower-echelon earners in Europe have been hammered by high fuel costs.

    People adapt.

    Maybe the lower-income people might have to cut a movie rental or two out a week, or make one less "fill in the blank" discretionary purchase.

    That happened to a lot of middle-class people last year when gas was $4.08 a gallon.

    But you know what? People adapted. There were stories all over the news about how people were adapting to the changes and driving only one car instead of two, and taking the bus every now and then instead of driving every day, and consolidating their trips, and eating at home more.

    People in the USA and Europe have already shown that they can successfully adapt to higher fuel prices.
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,356
    I'm not opposed to higher prices in that regard. Personally, I own a TCH and higher prices affect me less so than the average Joe.

    What were you saying about being selfish and looking out after your own skin?

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    It's called proper planning. It's a win win. I'm doing my part for clean air AND at the same time conserving my own money.

    I do far more than other people for the environment, but this is not a forum for beating my chest about it. Trust me, I could go on for days.
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,356
    Thank goodness your attitude is still in the minority in the U.S.....for now.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Let's stick to the topic please. And the topic isn't each other. It's Are automobiles a major cause of global warming?
This discussion has been closed.

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