Is Cadillac's Image Dying and Does Anyone Care?

Mr_Shiftright

Can a Cadillac *ever* be any more reliable than any other GM product, or are all GM makes in a firm and unchangeable embrace with the current GM corporate culture and standards?

To put it another way, I'll make a statement (for argument's sake, I may or may not believe it):

Cadillac won't gain a reputation for reliability until Chevrolet does.

lemko

There are no 1985 Lexi. The car debuted in 1989 as a 1990 model. If one wants a Lexus on the cheap, they can get the ES250 which is a thinly disguised Camry. I'd say there are still a lot of the original LS400s on the road. The SC400s don't seem to be as durable or they ended up in the hands of abusive drivers. Most of the coupes I see these days look very shabby.

Back in 1989 I would've either bought the Mercedes 560SEL or the Cadillac Brougham. The Mercedes 560SEL was a very expensive car - $73,900 MSRP. The Cadillac Brougham started at $29,900. The Lexus LS400 was an unknown at the time. I believe it started around $35,000 which was a bargain compared to any Mercedes.

I guess I made the right decision as my Cadillac Brougham has 157K miles and still looks excellent. They are right about the car's V-8. It is a dog but is durable.

sls002

I think that you are right. In the early 50's, each division was more or less in control of their quality. Now GMAD has control, and while the sigma plant may be better than some other GM plants, in general I would say that Chevrolets are built as well as any other GM product. Therefor Cadillac's are probably not much better than a Chevrolet.

pch101

But it's not like the Lexus is more expensive than the competition there.

Again, Lexus doesn't offer the price advantage that it has offered here, which was a real help to it here. It could compete on value to US customers, and that's an advantage that it doesn't have in Europe.

With everything else the same, but reliability higher, they should still sell, right?

That's a key difference between the US market and those of Western Europe. We tend to regard cars as being more like appliances -- this makes some sense, because more of us use our cars to commute than is the case in Europe, so reliability is highly important to more buyers here. In Europe, reliability is less important.

Let's also remember that Toyota had a much larger presence here in the US when it launched Lexus, and Lexus products have benefited by having the brand value of Toyota standing behind it -- the US buyer was assured that the Lexus would be a solid runner. In Europe, Toyota has less brand value due to its smaller presence and the lower emphasis on reliability as a virtue.

Also, Lexus and Infiniti are largely designed to suit American tastes, so it's not surprising that the Europeans would still prefer European cars. But if you look at the lower rungs of the automotive food chain, the Japanese makers are increasing their efforts to make cars designed for European buyers, and I will guess that you will see this creeping up the chain as their market presence grows.

In terms of building market share and brand equity, Toyota et. al. are perhaps 20 years behind in Europe compared to where they are in the US, so the differences are understandable. But things aren't standing still, and I would expect them to close the gap fairly rapidly. I'd give them a decade or so to get pretty close.

lemko

I think I'd hire the guy who drives a well cared-for Buick Park Avenue or Lucerne. He's obviously doing well enough to afford a decent car, but is conservative, confident enough not to need a flashy car to project an image, and is careful with his money and would be with that of my business.

lemko

Uh, my girlfriend's 2001 Chevrolet Impala is still going strong. I've owned a 1987 Chevrolet Caprice Classic that was an excellent car before trading up to my Cadillac Brougham two years later. I have as much confidence is Chevrolet as I do other GM makes - especially Buick!

Mr_Shiftright

depends on the business. If it's sales, you want a hungry man. If it's a funeral parlor, well, then okay (just kidding!) :P

But you have a point. Ever see those rock-u-mentaries about crazed rock and roll bands? They are total freaks and so are their roadies, but when they cut to the guy who handles their money, he's usually a nerd in a suit. He may also be a crook, but he looks stable at any rate. I'm sure his image got him that job.

sls002

of what car they drive is the dumbest thing I have ever heard of. I know that real estate sales people think that they need to drive something expensive looking to give the appearence of success, but that does not mean they really are competent.

chevy598

That's the point. There was no lexus in 1985, and the Germans had the Luxury import market to themselves. Now 1 out of 3 luxury imports is a Japanese car.

Mr_Shiftright

Lexus made a better S class for $10,000 less.

Can Cadillac make a better LS460 for $10,000 less?

Tall order.....but that's what they'd have to do.

british_rover

Again, Lexus doesn't offer the price advantage that it has offered here, which was a real help to it here. It could compete on value to US customers, and that's an advantage that it doesn't have in Europe.

I am not finding that to be the case just by looking over the car configure sites in the UK.

To keep things even these are all petrol models

A base E350 sedan seems to be a little over 36,000 GBP including VAT.

A base 530i SE sedan seems to be a little over 33,000 GBP also including VAT.

A base lexus GS300 seems to be a little under 30,000 GBP including VAT.

Thats a pretty big swing in price for what are similar class cars with similar equipments.

Just to compare those base cars in the US go like this.

A base E350 is a little over 50,000 USD.

A Base 530i is a little 48,000 USD.

A base GS300 is almost 45,000 USD.

Looks to me like there is a bigger price differance in the UK between Lexus and BMW then there is in the US. At least by looking at list prices and keeping in mind that one british pound is almost two US dollars.

sls002

Was the LS really better than the S-class, or was it nearly as good for less? Is the current LS nearly as good as an S-class for less money? I think the LS was sold for little or no profit at first to establish the brand.

Cadillac tried to out do Rolls with the 1957 Eldorado Brougham. They over reached the technology of the time. Cadillac over reached again with the 81 8-6-4 engine.

The basic problem with out doing the S-class or the Lexus LS is that they are more or less state of the art. What GM is doing now I think, is building quite decent bodies at a fair price. If GM can cut costs so they can sell E-class bodies at Chevy prices, then they will have something.

Mr_Shiftright

Well a whole lotta buyers thought the LS400 was better, and Mercedes certainly did have a corporate heart attack when it came out...so subjectively speaking, yeah, it was better.

I still remember the line Automobile magazine used after they test drove the new LS400..it went something like this:

"All you executives from Bavaria and Stuttgart traveling around the world?....call your home office right away".

british_rover

I have worked on a whole lot of early LS cars and a fair amount of S-Class cars from the same era.

The LS was so much easier to work on and in general was cheaper to repair. The Lexus didn't really drive as solid as the mercedes as it aged though.

fintail

I don't know if a mere price advantage is all it takes to succeed in this part of the market. I think product aspects outweigh price (which is why more expensive yet less reliable vehicles still rule). As has been pointed out, a comparably equipped Lexus is still cheaper in Europe than the standard players...but still no significant impact in the market.

Well, they've had over a decade and have done relatively little. I'll believe it when I see it. Personally, I don't think the Euro market high end car buyer will go for it like their NA counterparts. Caddy will probably have just as easy a time there as Lexus.

british_rover

Lexus doesn't have much in the way of diesel models avaliable for Europe either. I forget how much of the market is diesel powered in Europe but I think it is over 50 percent. Without good diesel performers you are going to have a hard time in the European market.

trimaster

Once upon time, a Cadillac did carry brand value, and it sent the message as being both better than a Chevy and worth the extra money.

Very true. & some people who bought them during their hey-day bought them for that very reason. Just like some people today who drive a German vehicle.

trimaster

I like the MINI for the way it drives. It's really a superb handling car. I may yet pull the trigger. Either that or the Mazda3Speed, another awesome car but not quite as cute.

Good luck with your purchase whicever you choose! I sat in a Mini at an auto show in 2005. I was surprised at how roomy it was inside.

trimaster

I think Lexus reliability is only part of the equation. The other half being service. Service at a whole other level than anyone else short of maybe Rolls Royce. [and that may be debatable]

They've won so many people over by fixing problems in such a professional manner, and without pain to the customer as much as possible. [from what I hear and see]

Don't forget the most important factor IMO:

Price.

Make a decent car 10-20k less than their competitor and you can do some serious damage. But now they are raising their prices to compete with the Germans. That is a mistake IMO. When you raise your prices people also raise their expectations. Some consider Lexus dull & boring. Why pay 80k for "dull and boring" when for an extra 5k you can get a Benz?

trimaster

The reality of the situation is that if Benz or BMW trip and fall and start making poorer cars and then start recovering its ok. They have the reputation and are improving themselves and are still good cars. But if Cadillac does the same thing they are pieces of junk and will never recover and are doomed to fail.

Its a simple double standard.

I see your point, but that reputation is because for YEARS their cars WERE of exceptional quality. Also, the "poorer cars" (19990's models) are still on the road, still look good & still outperform MANY of the cars out there today.

trimaster

Sam Walton drove around in an old beat up pickup truck. I know someone driving around in a 12 year old escort thats pretty well beaten up who could probably buy your company for cash. I had a job many decades ago where the owner of the company drove a beat up station wagon yet he owed nothing (either in business or personal life) and he had more than enough cash to buy half the inventory at your local BMW dealer.

That's the exception, not the rule.

trimaster

How much more damage will Lexus do to the Germans 18 years from now?

If they keep raising their prices while the Germans keep increasing their quality not as much as you might think IMO...

pch101

You do have a point. However, the German brands offer lower-level versions of their cars that are not comparable in terms of performance, but come in at a lower price tag. With the high cost of fuel, Europeans are more inclined to consider lesser versions of cars that aren't sold here, such as Mercedes E200K's, Audi A6 2.0T's and BMW 318i's.

Lexus has tended to stick with the larger engines in Europe, and therefore doesn't end up providing as much competition in the lower power ranges. For examples, whereas the Lexus LS engine choices in Europe are similar to ours (the 430 and 460), there are Mercedes S-classes with 2.8 liter and 3.0 liter diesels that aren't available in the Lexus line. An S280 is about L3000 cheaper -- while it doesn't compare across the board in terms of features, it can beat Lexus on price and offer performance that is considered adequate to a slice of the marketplace.

trimaster

I'm confident that if European markets had been more open to imports and if distribution was more readily available that Lexus et. al. would be further along. Give them time, and they'll make headaway soon enough, despite the obstacles

Maybe so, but what about the driving experience? Europeans are driving enthusiasts. Much more than we are here. Will they want to drive a car on the Autobahn that some people here consider dull & boring?

Are they brand loyal in Europe?

trimaster

I think it'd have to be across the board. One GM division shouldn't be stellar while the others are sub-par. That sens a mixed message. But then again, the Chrysler 300 is doing very well, while other Chrysler models are struggling.

pch101

Maybe so, but what about the driving experience? Europeans are driving enthusiasts. Much more than we are here. Will they want to drive a car on the Autobahn that some people here consider dull & boring?

The Japanese are already moving toward making cars that are more desirable to European buyers. They are also expanding production within the EU, which will allow them to avoid the EU's import tariffs and to more easily build cars that are designed specifically for the European market.

Changes in the US market should also help with this. As the American population ages, the older affluent demographic that favored a cushy ride is being replaced by boomers who grew up with German cars and prefer those characteristics. Lexus et. al. should be able to introduce the smaller engines and turbodiesels that Europeans want into cars that will be desirable in both markets. The IS series is a sign that they are heading in that direction.

Here's an article from Business Week from a couple of years ago that you might find interesting:

"Toyota's New Traction In Europe"

Thanks to its new design studio in southern France, near Nice, Toyota's recent models look distinctly Mediterranean. Its whimsical Yaris, which starts at $12,000, exudes Latin flair with its cute snout and peppy stance. "The first good result to come out of our effort was the Yaris," says Toyota Motor Europe CEO Shuhei Toyoda, one of the founding family scions. Toyota's new compact minivan, the Corolla Verso, at $25,000, matches the avant-garde styling pioneered by French and German rivals such as the Renault Scenic or Volkswagen Touran. Once-blah interiors sport higher-quality fabrics, dashboards, and knobs, while clean diesel engines are helping to power sales. "To me, Toyota has a dynamic and cool image," says Celine Massonaud, a 37-year-old decorator who lives outside Paris and who recently bought a gray RAV4 sport-utility vehicle with a sunroof. Toyota is even finding European buyers for its Prius hybrid.

European auto makers have more to fear from Toyota than a handful of hot models. While the Japanese powerhouse was figuring out how to build cars attractive to Europeans, it was also bearing down on costs to wield the efficiency needed to prevail in one of the world's lowest-margin auto markets. Toyota's management asked engineers to propose an innovative, cost-saving design for the Valenciennes facility. The result, a compact, star-shaped factory, was a first at Toyota. It features a production area with limited space to store parts or components. The 2 1/2 hours' worth of inventory on hand is lower than at any other Toyota factory in the world. "Some Toyota engineers said this plant could not work," recalls Leroy. "They said if we had any problem, it would stop the lines."

The daring design was a hit. By putting every production process under one roof -- from press machinery to welding, painting, assembly, and final quality checks -- Toyota cut the overall investment required for the plant by 40%, to $732 million. The thin inventory levels act as a warning when things go wrong, since backlogs or rapidly depleted stacks of components are immediately noticeable. Over three years, Valenciennes' so-called "lean design" has proven so successful that Toyota is basing its new joint-venture plant (with PSA Peugeot Citröen) on it. Dozens of Czech workers have trained in France, preparing for next year's ramp-up in Kolín, near Prague.

The design of the French plant is just one example of how Toyota is quietly but relentlessly increasing the standard of efficiency in Europe. European auto makers such as Fiat, Adam Opel, and Ford, which can never seem to get out of the red, will feel the squeeze.

nvbanker

What engine was in that beauty ?

A 5.8L (351CID Windsor) V-8.

nvbanker

of what car they drive is the dumbest thing I have ever heard of. I know that real estate sales people think that they need to drive something expensive looking to give the appearence of success, but that does not mean they really are competent.

Don't get insulted by that - it's very logical. You are hired on appearance. The appearance of your resume, what it represents you to know and be. The appearance of your persona - how you look, act, speak, appear, carry yourself, attitute. What you drive is just an extension of that, and certainly not the only, or pivital criteria for the hiring decision. Just one of the impressions you may make. For certain jobs, it matters - for others, it doesn't.

Taking it one step further - when I'm buying a car from a salesperson - I'm much more favorably impressed if the salesperson drives one of the cars he sells, or at least an older model of one, indicating that he likes the brand. And I always ask the person what they drive. If it's something else, I ask them why they don't drive what I'm thinking of buying.....a very telling question. The answer had better be that they desperately want one, but can't afford it yet or something like that. It had better not be that they like Brand X better.... :surprise:

You are what you drive - get over it.

Mr_Shiftright

Benz has 100 years of being great and ten years of being average, and Cadillac has 50 years of being grat, 15 years of being average, and 20 years of being pretty awful.

So---It's not the same thing. One's a bump in the road, the other is a plunge off the cliff.

And it's a longggggg way back up......

You have to remember, GM drove Cadillac right into the toilet---some of you may too young (thankfully) but Cadillac was humiliated in the car world for some time....vilified in the media....it was a truly awful situation for the company.

I don't think ANY car company suffered a worse fall from grace and still survived this level of humiliation....maybe Hyundai is the only one that comes to mind. The rest just died when they got that bad.

so the mere survival of Cadillac is a miracle. I think if it were a stand alone company it would have died, like Packard did.

merc1

Since you seem to have no clue as to what Cadillac's horsepower rating was, are your numbers for Mercedes accurate?

Does it matter? The Allante was an underpowered, fwd, non-power top (on a 60K car!) POS. A 30 hp difference doesn't mean squat. Yes the Mercedes numbers are correct. You act like the hp misquote made some type of competitive difference. The fact is the Allante flopped when compared to the 560SL and when the 1990 500SL came out with 322hp and more technology than all GM cars put together the Allante was DOA.

M

nvbanker

You have to remember, GM drove Cadillac right into the toilet---some of you may too young (thankfully) but Cadillac was humiliated in the car world for some time....vilified in the media....it was a truly awful situation for the company.


I remember it all too well, shifty, in fact, I participated in some of those horrible cars - 83 Fleetwood Brougham, 85 Fleetwood, 87 Sixty Special, 90 Fleetwood. 3 of those had the 4.1L Aluminum Leaker..... Oh geez.....

pch101

The appearance of your resume, what it represents you to know and be. The appearance of your persona - how you look, act, speak, appear, carry yourself, attitute. What you drive is just an extension of that, and certainly not the only, or pivital criteria for the hiring decision.

I absolutely and utterly disagree with this. In the case of many of those who drive premium cars, the car reflects their willingness to go into hock and probably indicates a low savings rate. Many of those who I know who drive expensive cars have a tough time paying the rent and are barely treading water, they own the car to simply keep up appearances.

That being said, I can appreciate that many people do hold your view, which is one reason why I myself drive a premium car -- I really have no choice. I admittedly do love the thing, but the frugal part of me does feel that in financial terms, it's just a huge depreciating waste of money. However, since my clients expect the nice wheels, I do have them, and I figure that it results in a higher income that helps to cover the additional cost.

Still, I find it to be a bit ridiculous and sad that we have changed from being a country that valued thriftiness to a society consumed by consumption and acquisitiveness. I'm not pleased or proud to see it happen.

gsemike

In this day and age where leasing and interest only mortgages are so common, it's really hard to look at someone's possessions and tell who is really making it and who is doing it with smoke and mirrors.

For anyone to factor what the candidate is driving into ahiring decision is retarded. I have the classic "station car" for my 3/4 mile commute to the station. It's a 1993 LeSabre, basically straight with an alarming loss of paint on the roof.

If someone were to look at that and decide that I'm a loser would be assinine. I make low 6 figures and I work hard to do it. I've got a better car that I leave for my wife. I've put about 6,000 miles on it in the past year and as soon as it needs any significant repairs, it's gone. So far, all it's needed is a battery. In the meantime, my wife is able to stay home with our baby because our mortgage is the only debt that we have.

laurasdada

Yeah, remind me to rent a MB S550 for the day of my next interview. That'll get me the job... :confuse:

fintail

I have to believe that most employers don't have any clue about what their employees drive. Surely some professions are exceptions, but for the most part...it's not an issue, and the dope in charge of hiring probably can't tell a 1997 BMW/MB/Buick whatever from a 2007 model anyway. I know there are some very successful people where I work who drive some iffy cars. But at the same time, it takes a little something to at least pay that lease.

And I really agree with the leasing and sketchy mortgage idea. In my area a lot of younger people have highline cars...I attribute this in part to the insane local housing market, which has made home ownership impossible for many people without 2 healthy incomes, and difficult even with those. So that money that would go to a mortgage in a more sane market ends up going to a nice car instead, it's a lot cheaper to lease a nice car than to pay the note on a 500K+ 40 year old tract house.

nvbanker

Yeah, remind me to rent a MB S550 for the day of my next interview. That'll get me the job...

Depends on the job, but your TL will probably be just fine. Interesting you drive Premium cars, but reject the premise of what they make you look like. Prosperous, talented, discerning for the Acura. Intelligent because it's Japanese. Do those things offend you?

snakeweasel

They are capable, just that many would not admit that.

snakeweasel

You would be surprised how not well off many luxury car drivers are.

Most posers in new ones lease, most posers trying to save some bucks buy those leased cars when they come off lease.

pch101

Do those things offend you?

Speaking for myself, I do find that this presumption that possessions = wealth really is a bit of offensive. Usually, the possessions seem to reflect the opposite, i.e. a willingness to borrow large amounts, and to spend more than one can afford.

Those are not qualities that I'd want in many employees, such as a financial manager. If someone is overleveraged in his personal life, I'd expect that he would overleverage my business as well. People who have cash don't always feel the need to prove to the world that they've spent it.

I suppose it can sometimes be a good indicator. For example, I knew a guy back in the day who thought that he was clever by passing up on an Acura Legend in favor of the English-built Rover 800. Little did he understand that while the Rover had the same engineering, the car was complete crap and it was a matter of time before Rover left the US market entirely (which, as it turns out, happened a few years later.) Talk about being pennywise and pound foolish, and his choices certainly reflected that tendency.

snakeweasel

But thats just my point. Take any good car put a BMW badge on it and everyone will like it and say its good. Put a Cadillac badge on it and all of a sudden its a piece of junk. The only thing different is the badge.

trimaster

Thanks for that link. Looks like they're in it for the long term. I can see the Toyota cars making a splash overtime. Small fuel effecient cars should do well in that region...

I wonder how Lexus will do.

snakeweasel

I had a Chevy Corsica with a 4 banger in it. Thing ran for 110K miles before anything went wrong. It ran for almost 200K more miles with few problems until the guy I sold it to threw it into reverse doing 35 MPH.

I like that type of reliability.

snakeweasel

I'm sure his image got him that job.

I am sure his credentials and resume got him that job.

fintail

But probably still on average much more well off than the average beater driver...that's the whole point. Every rule has exceptions, but the rule usually stands.

Smarter money is certainly not on the brand new car, if one is buying outright.

You own a highline car, don't you? And you're not going into massive debt for it I am sure. You're the rule. There are exceptions.

sls002

If it was a typo, OK. However, I seriously doubt that. The 4100 was introduced with 125 horsepower, and by 1987 was putting out 130. The RWD 1987 Fleetwood Brougham had a 140 hp 5 liter Chevy engine.

As far as the Allante is concerned, I think that it was overpriced, due in part to the extravagant manufacturing process. But more than anything, the FWD simply was not going to work in something that Cadillac expected to sell to Mercedes SL roadster buyers. Cadillac was able to flim-flam some people with the Seville Turing Sedan (STS) and they experimented with the computer controled suspension. However, as was the case with the 60's era Toronado and Eldorado, FWD has very serious limits with respect to handling on dry pavement. On slippery roads FWD is an other matter.

Allante sales were steady at about 3000 annually. The 1990 Mercedes did not affect Allante sales as far as I can see. The 93 Allante did better, but I think Cadillac or GM, decided that upgrading the Seville with a computer suspension was perhaps a better waste of money.

snakeweasel

That's the exception, not the rule.

Can't and will not say one way or the other. Just saying you cannot tell how successful someone is by the car they drive. That 27 year old kid in the 6 year old Chevy may be retired with 20 million in investments. Or that 45 year old in the 5 series may just have had his house foreclosed on and is living in his car until its repossessed.

trimaster

I don't think ANY car company suffered a worse fall from grace and still survived this level of humiliation....maybe Hyundai is the only one that comes to mind. The rest just died when they got that bad.

Wow. That says a lot. Time will tell how high the company will go. I guess it depends on how fast the buying public forgets their troubled past. They have much work to do: change public perception, tougher competition, icrease market share, etc. Time will tell...

lemko

Gee, I must look like a colossal loser. I mostly drive my 1988 Buick Park Avenue with several faded spots on it - that is when I'm not either walking or taking the bus! Truth is, I have no debt outside of my mortgage which is lower than most people's rent! My cars are all long since paid for.

pch101

You're quite welcome.

Looks like they're in it for the long term.

It's an unusual trait compared to a Big 3 company -- a firm that actually cares about long-term planning and meeting market demand. Too bad Detroit won't follow that example.

I wonder how Lexus will do.

If they can figure out how to dial in European finesse and improve the styling, I think they may have a good shot. I think that we need to recognize that Lexus products have been largely designed with us in mind, not the Europeans, and it will become easier over time to develop Lexus "world cars" that appeal more to both.

snakeweasel

But probably still on average much more well off than the average beater driver...that's the whole point.

First off that wasn't my point. my point was what you drive does not show success or lack of it.

I don't know the financial situation of the average luxury car owner. But that is not what I am addressing.

Interestingly enough a few weeks ago when we were getting frost every night there was a higher number of high end cars with frost on the (i.e. not garaged kept) than I would have imagined.