Is Cadillac's Image Dying and Does Anyone Care?

lemko

D-uh? What does "ELLPS" stand for?

rockylee

lemko, ELLPS is an abbreviation that stands for the forum on edmunds and is often used in car magazines as "Entry-Level Luxury Perfomance Sedans"

Type in Performance on the edmunds search window and you will have all kinds of interesting "stuff" with the word performance come up. If you didn't know you can search this site by using the search box and find cool topics about cadillac by typing Cadillac in the search box or type 2007 or 2008 in the box and so on.....

Such cars in that segment of course are the BMW 3 series, Cadillac CTS, Infiniti G35, Acura TL, Audi A4, etc, etc, etc... So there you have it.

Rocky

british_rover

Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedan...

:P

If the 2008 CTS can hit all of the same performance levels as a 2008 335i and give the same level or road feel combined with driving refinement then I would say Caddy did a great job.

I wouldn't start calling the CTS a benchmark though because caddy only did it one time. They have to do that over and over year after year to reach that status. If 2010 or 2011 rolls around and the CTS is still beating the 335i then I would say the CTS is a benchmark.

rockylee

Time will tell if the 08' CTS will be the benchmark. That would also mean taking the pens away from biased editors and finding neutral jury all which is unlikely to happen at least in this country. :sick:

Rocky

Mr_Shiftright

Rocky, conspiracy theories just won't cut it anymore...Cadillac has to accept responsibility for what it does well and what it does not so well. After years of laughing at the Corvette, magazine editors now universally praise the car, as they do the Mustang. Their only bias, I think, is toward mediocrity in the Cadillac.

rockylee

Well I've seen the biased media praise a GM car and give it the calipers, and the following year trash it and call it old. The car is only going into its second model cycle and now it's a POS ? :surprise:

Rocky

british_rover

Consipriacy theorists worry me.

rockylee

If we didn't have them at all think of all the stuff people could get away with and you not notice until it's to late !

Rocky

Mr_Shiftright

Well if the competition raised the bar the following year, and GM just slapped a new badge on last year's car, that's what's going to happen. All magazine judgements are relative to other makes and models. That's how you get a "benchmark"---that is, a mark from which all others are to be judged.

Once you ARE the benchmark, you don't get trashed, because you're king of the hill.

Some GM models are *very* long in the tooth.

british_rover

CTS-V Review on Top Gear

You don't get much more biased against US cars then Top Gear and overall I would say they like the CTS-V. They have some complaints about the car, not all of which are legitimate, but overall I would call this review positive in a backhanded sort of way.

Kirstie_H

This could be explained in several (logical) ways, none of which involve a (logic-free and impossible to execute) all-media conspiracy plot.

If a vehicle looks good off the line but fails to perform & has problems after a year, that could explain the fall-in/fall-out love affair that you're seeing.

Blaming every negative review report from consumers & media alike as "biased" just doesn't pass even the most cursory glance, much less intensive scrutiny. It just borders on utter silliness to dismiss every bad report as "anti-domestic" writing.

Taking away journalists' pens won't improve Cadillac's quality. That's what Communists used to do... get rid of any negative reporting and presto! There are no problems.

anythngbutgm

Hey Rocky, the SRX was voted in the C&D 5 best "LUXURY SUV's" category 3 years in a row. It also won the NATY award in 04' yet, sales still suck, have ever since inception. The media is a reference, not the answer and the idea that a supposed "conspiracy" drives Toyota sales is ridiculous.

Boo freakin Hoo that they don't have the same adoration of the great GarbageMotors that you do. But they are giving deserved credit where credit was due.

dhamilton

Go drive a new CTS V6 manual, then a 3 series manual, I'm assuming your an enthusiast because your on this site enough. You should be able to tell a huge difference.

PS If you don't drive sticks, then your not enough of a "driving dynamics" guy to feel it. Also, last year, or 2, or 3 year old model doesn't count. Do your due diligence, re research.

sls002

I think Cadillac has done fairly well in the comparison tests in general. They have not been #1, but on the other hand, they have not be dead last either. When the FWD models were included in the comparison tests, they were usually near the bottom.

A CTS_V, BMW M3 and Audi comparison put the BMW last in a Car & Driver test. The STS has been in the middle of most comparison tests because the price tag is too high, and the interior is too cheap for the price of the car. The M5 has not done well in recent comparison tests, with Mercedes taking over quite soundly. The STS_V has not been competitive, but on the otherhand, is probably the best car for street use. I don't think the M5 is the sort of car to drive in rush hour traffic. Not sure about the Mercedes.

sls002

After owning two cars with sticks, I decided I don't like them. But the BMW stick might be much better than the ones I owned.

Mr_Shiftright

I can't imagine why anyone would want a stickshift in a large heavy 4-door car....I'm amazed anyone buys these things....

gsemike

The BMW manual gearbox is a thing of beauty. the shifter falls right to hand and it is precise with just the right amount of effort.

rockylee

I read a lot about cars and have since I was a kid. I growing up in the auto-industry and being a son, grandson, nephew, cousin, friend, of many people working at GM/Delphi or a parts supplier have been exposed first hand to the automobile industry. I also have worked in the auto-industry myself for nearly a year. I being exposed to so much in the automobile industry in my lifetime I naturally fell in love with automobiles at a very young age and had many car magazine subscriptions which I read over and over again because I would spend hours reading my newest magazine from cover to back page. This included reviews often found in our local newspaper and of course newspaper articles found in Detroit's two newspapers I would find on news stands. Once finished I'd pick up another older magazine and reread it again.

I guess being very biased to General Motors by natural association I sometimes would get very angry at the car magazines for the "name calling" of GM vehicals I liked. I also would get outraged when some editor in the paper or magazine would call my relatives as being over paid.

I as a kid with my mother and brother would wait patiently in the General Motors Wyoming, Michigan plant for my tired father to walk out of work since he worked 2nd shift or otherwise known as B-shift since we only had one car and my parents tried to make it on one income so my mom could stay home with us kids and raise us right. Dad, always had a particular diesel smell when he got into the car.

I as a youth had a hard time understanding when dad got laid-off back in the early 80's and money became very tight and dad didn't know if he was ever going to get called back since automobile sales were down and a recession would hit. Dad, luckily was able to land a decent job to hold him over until he got called back to GM. Dad to the best of my memory got laid-off like 3-4 times in the 1980's and would have to ask him if that is accurate. I do remember 2 of them because they were for long periods of times and mom had to work so we could make ends meet.

Luckily my grand parents both had good jobs and helped my parents out until better times and I believe the 1987' recession was the last time dad was laid-off with-out taking a voluntary lay-off like he did over the last few years so other people needing the money could work.

The morale of my short-story about my automotive child hood is yes I will always be biased towards GM vehicals but have had the personal experiences of reading magazine and newspaper articals from editors trashing both General Motors and UAW workers. Not all the articles written were justified because not all of GM's cars were bad automobiles. Yes some of the 1980's cars were POS, but many editors like to use two-decades ago history to reflect on the current and new General Motors we have today. The Japanese and Europeans made some horrible cars back in the day also but Renault seems to be the only brand that was never given another chance but I think that's because it was a French brand and americans like to pick on the French.

General Motors, because they are #1 still take the majority of the public whippings by the media for it's history and for some odd reason the media will not let go of the past. Look at people like "anythingbutgm" who just a few posts ago called General Motors "Garbage Motors" and he isn't alone in his attitude and thinking as I've seen this same attitude reflected from some of the hosts here on this site. I believe everyone should have a right to say what they want but it peeves me when people can't let go of the past and hold a grudge not only against the company but against the good people that built the products even though it was out of their control. Like I said before if you want to blame one person for GM's past you need to not look any further than former GM CEO Roger "Jack" Smith :mad:

Rocky

sls002

Some people like to shift, or think that a manual is somehow "sporty". The manumatics are a good compromise I think.

rockylee

I usually do see the least amount of bias from C&D and I'm seriously thinking about giving them another try.

Rocky

sls002

My first manual (in my first car) was a 69 Pontiac GTO. The second manual was an 83 Skyhawk (Japanese transmission).

rockylee

sls,

I agree with ya. I like the Jeep manumatic I have in my rental. However I do prefer a slick shifting manual.

Rocky

sls002

I think Automobile has been OK too. They have not been anti-GM. I think that they are honest in saying what they think. Cadillac's biggest problem with the sigma cars is the interiors as far as I can tell. I did check out a CTS in my dealers showroom, and I do think the door panels are bit too much hard/firm plastic. I'm not sure how the SRX interior compares.

sls002

My GTO did not shift well, and something finally broke after quite a few miles. Might still have been under warranty though. Anyway, it did shift better after it was fixed, but the repair guy said I broke it with too much speed shifting.

The Skyhawks transmission (imported from Japan to mate with the OHC engine from Brazil) shifted rubbery. I should have ordered the 3 speed automatic I guess, to go with the automatic climate control, something the Cimarron did not offer.

rockylee

I use to also subscribe to automobile and I'm not sure why I never kept up my subscription to it. I suppose money was tight when I was 18 and I had to cut out some excess thus I kept only a few subscriptions at a time. Motor Trend I kept because I always liked the sneak previews articles I suppose.

I agree the current CTS interior is no longer up to scale. The new SRX interior is flat out awesome. :shades:

Rocky

62vetteefp

Hey Rocky, the SRX was voted in the C&D 5 best "LUXURY SUV's" category 3 years in a row. It also won the NATY award in 04' yet, sales still suck, have ever since inception. The media is a reference, not the answer and the idea that a supposed "conspiracy" drives Toyota sales is ridiculous.

Boo freakin Hoo that they don't have the same adoration of the great GarbageMotors that you do. But they are giving deserved credit where credit was due.

I watched Tony Snow from C&D last night. If the car is not an enthusiats mag he says some downright poor things abut them. ie Honda is not puting a stick in the CR-V. Boy is he pissed about that. Now is that biased? Yes, against cars that 95% of drivers buy.

Now the opposite can happen. The SRX is pretty darn nice of an enthusiast SUV/whatever it is. problem is most that are interested in that type of vehicle do not care about handling, etc. they want space and room. So while C&D like it there are not enough buying public in that niche to buy it.

sls002

If my dealer doesn't find a 2006 program SRX soon, I may decide to wait for the 2007's. There are already some 2007 SRX program cars at a few dealers.

allargon

The SLS is a good step. However, it's in China. The reskinned SRX is making waves. However, the magazines can love you all they want. It's sales that count. The king of the luxury crossover market is Lexus. I bet Acura and Mercedes won't steal too many sales from them, either.

Back to Cadillac. I so hope GM adds a hardtop convertible option to the CTC coming out in 2009. It would make a great weekend car. Moreover, I hope they price it right, too. If so, I will do my best to park one in my garage.

rockylee

Thus a manumatic is sufficient, right ?

Rocky

rockylee

SLS,

They are flat out cool....they are perfect family vehicals. They are midsize, good in inclement weather, and for a CUV are quite sporty in the handling/power department. :shades:

Rocky

rockylee

allargon,

The reskinned SRX I do believe will finally start taking some market share from Lexus. The only flaw was its interior but now that its been fixed it should be a credible cross shopped vehical.

I pray the Chinese SLS gets made in Lansing. Boy the interior on that beauty is flat out IMHO the best intrior design ever. "readreader" has some pics of it on this forum that made my mouth water. :shades:

If GM, doesn't make me my Buick Velite Convertible, the next best thing they could do is make me a Cadillac Convertible. I however from a weight stand point would prefer they Twin-Turbocharge the 3.6 to 450 horsepower like they have done on some concept vehicals. It would also add something unique to the Cadillac line-up to further distinguish them apart. :shades:

Rocky

lemko

Amen, brother!

dhamilton

It's not enough to just listen to the autorags. You have to be pro-active and go drive the cars yourself. I wouldn't let any car magazine effect 35%, the car I drive. It's your own test drive, and analysis that decides.

I for one don't like GM becaus of my experience with them, ie It's never been positive. But everytime I slip behind the wheel of an Audi I get goosebumps. They aren't the fastest, best handling, or most luxurious, but there is a symmetry there that hits me in my soul.

I encourage you to get behind the wheel of every car in the ELLPS class, and form your own opinion. You may be suprised.

62vetteefp

Not for C&D. Not good enough.

nvbanker

I would bet that half the people that bought a Mini don't even know of the relationship to BMW.

You think? I sometimes question the IQ of a MINI owner myself, but I didn't suppose they were that stupid, not to notice they are sold at BMW dealerships.... :P

nvbanker

I can't imagine why anyone would want a stickshift in a large heavy 4-door car....I'm amazed anyone buys these things....

Amen to that....it's a blatant attempt to make the Caddy more BMW like - but the beauty of shifting in either car escapes me.

Mr_Shiftright

Flinging around two tons of metal, be that German or Detroit iron, is a lot of work.

ontop

Wow - and I thought I was the only one out there asking "why?" to a manual sedan.

I can see it in a S2000 or a Vette...but a Caddy? Na.

british_rover

I agree. You don't see these cars everyday and some of us do.

A mercedes is one of the most common tradeins for a rover, well except for another rover, and you can actually see the rise, fall and rise again of mercedes quality of the past decade or so of vehicles.

Just taking a quick drive around the block in a current gen C-Class, E-Class, 3 series or 5 series and then do the same drive in a CTS or STS.

Are the CTS and STS nice?

Yes.

Are they better then Caddies from just a few years ago?

Yes.

Are they as good as the germans?

No, but they are getting better and mercedes slip up from years past helped caddy catch up some.

I left out the Audis from taht comparison because they do have a very different drive that I can only describe as Audish. Kind of unique at least in my opinion and superior to the Mercs or BMW in some respects.

gsemike

"You think? I sometimes question the IQ of a MINI owner myself, but I didn't suppose they were that stupid, not to notice they are sold at BMW dealerships"

Don't be dumb. We have a dealer here that sellers Chryslers and Hondas. Just because two makes are paired up at a dealership doesn't mean the cars are made by the same company.

Why would you question anyone's IQ based on what they drive?

nvbanker

Lighten up, Mike, I was joking! Geesh!! :shades:

dhamilton

"Now the opposite can happen. The SRX is pretty darn nice of an enthusiast SUV/whatever it is. problem is most that are interested in that type of vehicle do not care about handling, etc. they want space and room. So while C&D like it there are not enough buying public in that niche to buy it."

Wrong, wrong wrong. At this price point the SRX is up against the MDX, the Q7, and the X5. The Caddy handles as well as none of these. The real problem is that in spite of the interior upgrade, the SRX isn't really capable of bringing new blood in to dealerships like the Escalade has done.

62vetteefp

Wrong, wrong wrong. At this price point the SRX is up against the MDX, the Q7, and the X5. The Caddy handles as well as none of these. The real problem is that in spite of the interior upgrade, the SRX isn't really capable of bringing new blood in to dealerships like the Escalade has done.

My point was that the SRX is a high station wagon in appearance and design unlike the others which appear more like an SUV. It is basically a bigger CTS wagon. C&D likes the SRX due to its more car like handling and ride. Why else would they like it? The three you mentioned look like SUVs, not wagons.

anythngbutgm

Exactly. Also, C&D praised it for the Northstar motor under the hood. Utility aspects and the pre-07 interior (Materials and build outclassed by a Kia Spectra) were sore spots as well as the exhorbitant asking price. But, it still managed a hat-trick in the 5 Best column. I think the breadbox shape was a strike against it on the market as well.

nvbanker

There's more wrong with the SRX that that too. The anemic Air Conditioner fan is inadequate for summer below Colorado...

dhamilton

I'm begining to wonder what Car&Driver is smoking, and I'm a subscriber.

Once again, it's irrelevant because in the class, it doesn't out handle, or out ride quality anyone. It maybe undercuts price due to GM offering incentives on anything and everything.

Which brings me to my last point. In the newspaper today I notice that they are allready offering 6k off of new Escalades. Gm needs to just drop the MSRP on these bohemoth dinasours. They are only hurting themselves with this nonesense.

rockylee

Thanx, lemko

Rocky

rockylee

dhamilton,

$6K off where ????

Rocky

merc1

I am going to say this again: The basic problem with the Allante, and the Buick Reatta, was not a lack of horsepower, but a lack of overall design. Both cars looked like sports roadsters, but really were FWD conversions of the luxury E-bodies into a smaller but not better two passenger car.

I don't know what the reason behind putting the Allante and Reatta into production was, but I suspect that it may have had something to do with making the FWD sedans more desirable.

It was a lack of hp and all those other things that made them lame ducks. I mean really is it that serious to debate about which flaws did the car it? It is matterless, those cars were grand flops.

My point about sales seemly holding steady at about 3000 annually is still true. While it is true the 93 model year production was higher, the 92 model year was a short one with reduced production. You are claiming that the 1990 SL did the Allante in, but the truth is that Allante production remained steady through the 1993 model year. I am not sure why Cadillac decided to end production at that point. However, I suspect that the new Seville was doing quite well at that point, and the Allante was not needed as a halo car anymore.

You missed my original point. When I said that 500SL did the Allante in, I meant from a design, engineering, performance, safety, technology, styling, etc. etc. point of view, not sales. Who cares what the Allante sold, it had its lugnuts handed to it. Just because the car sold well doesn't mean it was relevant or competitive anymore. The DeVille used to be the best selling luxury car in America it was about as irrelevant to most luxury car buyers as it could be.

M

merc1

YEs but, Cadillac has pretty much nothing in common with any other division (DTS excepted) in GM these days. They have done a good job of differentiating themselves from the lower level cars, so I believe people are now at least seeing Cadillac as something different than GM offers - which is why I think putting little GMs on everything they build is stupid. Typical GM thinking - telling people GM is good makes them good - no new paradigm there. Anyway, Cadillac may not now, nor ever be considered the STandard of the World again, but I do believe most younger people see Cadillac as different now, not just a move up car.

I agree completely. If I were head of Cadillac I'd have the GM badges removed. Who Cadillac buyer wants to be reminded that this is the same company makes a POS like the Ion?

M