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Comments
I see several around my area; two in my close area, a red and a bright yellow! What are you talking about?
> How many do you see running around the streets of U.S.A.?
I see many LaCrosses around our area. The LaCrosse in China won't be sold here so your question is moot. What are you takling about?
It seems you just post on this site to make broad statements that aren't based in facts. It sounds like you don't like GM. I'd recommend starting a discussion about I Hate GM rather than posting exaggerated kvetching in the Cadillac discussion...
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I don't think the lacrosse is setting the sales world on fire.
imidazol97,
I'm in total agreement with you.
Do you often find it funny how some people come into these forums and slam everything GM ?
Then when you ask them what cars they like it's usually a BMW, and I'd be willing to bet upon closer examination they don't own such a car and if they do they usually own a BMW 325i because that's all their budget will allow them. I know family's that could use a bigger car like a Buick Lucerne because they have 3-4 kids but will not buy one because it doesn't portray that image of "I'm better than you" :confuse: I just laugh at their silliness but do feel sorry for the children because these will be the life lessons taught to them. :sick:
Rocky
Actually GM dealers score much higher than the Japanese for dealer satisfaction. But I do not think that data will change your perception.
Rocky
And they'll tell you that even the underpowered 325i is better than your CTS-V because it "handles" better. Like they track the car and push it to the limit every single day.
BTW, sorry for the off-topic discussion, I'll stop here.
I will say I've had awesome experiences with GM dealers and others have been horrible. My recommendation is ask friends and family about their experiences with certain dealers and the bad ones you can black-ball. The best dealership I've ever been to is the "Grand" Chevy-Buick-GMC in Allegan, Michigan. I've bought every one of my brand new GM cars from them. I guess it doesn't hurt that I and my family is friends with the Sales Manager.
Rocky
The only broad statements being made on here imidazol97, are the statements you make out of biased favoritism and lack of research. The statements I make on here are like I said before, based on my 30 years of observation, research of published data and the corporation's history and present performance. On what are you basing your statements from, prejudice and blind loyalty? You said you saw 3 in your area. Oh wow! Let's all celebrate! 3 is such a huge number. Puhleeez. When it comes to G.M. truck products it's a different story, but don't try and convince me of their sales success of cars in the U.S.A.
Since the U.S.A. version of the Buick Lacrosse has been introduced I have seen about 4 where I live (Southern California), and I drive 200 miles every day, so it may be a demographic success for G.M. somewhere on the east coast U.S.A., but when you're talking about the broad playing field, small demographic success for a corporation like G.M. doesn't cut it. G.M. is not a mom and pop operation.
louiswei, I think you are trying "yank my chain" because even you know better than that. The track results prove who's right and who's wrong.
Rocky
For the record I have a Toyota Corolla and Honda Accord that I am very happy with, thank you. Assuming things doesn't make you look very bright. It probably doesn't make any difference to people like you if I said I wouldn't buy a BMW either. Their reputation isn't that great. They look nice and drive nice, but their reputation has suffered over the years.
mediapusher
We all already know people on the left coast are anti-domestic.
And I guess you think people on the "left" are anti-domestic just for the sake of being politically mean. Ridiculous.
No, there's a very good reason we're anti-domestic when it comes to cars.
Mediapusher
______________________________
mediapusher,
We all already know people on the left coast are anti-domestic.
Rockylee
My comment wasn't directed torwards you so don't be offended and yes I agree with your BMW reliability "observation" also.
I'm not going to bash the camcords you choose to drive because driving a basic appliance isn't my thing either. I look at the current Saturn Aura and soon to be 2008' Malibu the same way but both of them are very nice appliances and both could get spiced up with a "SS" version for the Malibu or a "Redline" version for the Aura then perhaps I'd be more interested. I actually wouldn't mine owning a Saturn Aura Greenline hybrid for a fuel sipping work car though. I perhaps one day will buy one used for a work car ?
The fact remains GM's reliability is near toyota levels and in many survey's and reports conducted by various sources say GM cars are among the best to own. GM, also has the highest repeat buyer percentage in the automotive industry a title your japanese automakers can't yet claim. I've observed import buyers over my life as I have many friends that I classify as "import louvers". They are not brand loyal on average and will lease/buy a honda one year and then trade it in on a Toyota, and then trade the Toyota in on a Nissan, and then trade the Nissan, for a BMW. The BMW gives them mechanical fits and then they trade or get rid of that for a honda again and in some rare cases they buy a domestic. ROTFFLMAO @ them. I guess they get so caught up in the CR Koran and don't know what to stick with or buy next.
Rocky
See its statements like this that make it impossible for me to take you seriously.
It is also one of the reasons why it worries me that you have access to automatic weapons... :sick:
And I guess you think people on the "left" are anti-domestic just for the sake of being politically mean. Ridiculous.
That's not it at all because if you knew me you'd know I lean torwards the "left" on a lot of issues. I never could understand how one could be a left-winger and drive a import because democrats are suppose to be protectionist and for keeping american jobs by nature but in California they make a different breed of them. :confuse:
No, there's a very good reason we're anti-domestic when it comes to cars.
Mediapusher
You sure haven't gave me any good sound reasons. The ramblings you gave me sounds so 1980's. I always thought californians were suppose to be the leaders of "modern times"
Rocky
Rocky
And what is it with you that expects a person to have brand loyalty? We on the "left" as you put it buy cars according to our needs regardless of brand. Brand loyalty doesn't factor on the "left" because we have our own brains. Do you always buy the same brand of sunglasses, floor tile, blenders, etc.....SILLY!
It often puzzles me and I'm a native! :confuse:
I was only kidding..... Geeeez british, get a grip !
It is also one of the reasons why it worries me that you have access to automatic weapons...
I guess clowning around once in a while is forbidden because I have access to automatic weapons ? :surprise:
Would you rather have someone be loose and funny, or somebody up tight and dead serious behind a gun ?????
I've seen the dead serious types and many have little in the way of common sense, and when I train them one of the first questions I've been asked was when did I think they'd get the chance to shoot or beat up somebody. I said this isn't Iraq dude and you have to have a pretty darn good reason to ever pull the trigger. :surprise:
I suppose you'd rather have the dead serious person behind the gun. :sick:
Rocky
How can I take you serious if you label all their cars as being junk. :confuse:
Rocky
P.S. I am pretty brand loyal. If it works great why change. I guess I don't have the urge to keep up with the Jones.
Actually since this is a Cadillac forum Toyota scores below Cadillac for vehicle dependibility at 3 years (2006 VDS).
In fact the Century and Regal also scored above the Accord and Camry.
For Initial quality(2006) Toyota scored 106 pph (4rth) with Cadillac at a close 117 pph(7th) just below Honda at 110 pph.
Of course the numbers are so close today that if you are above industry average(124) it is a basic wash. Its basically a 1 to 2 problems per vehicle spread so no big deal anymore.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
If you need some more examples, consider this list:
Cadillac Catera ( an electrical system nightmare)
Pontiac Aztek (it's ugly, and a the sales went lead)
Cadillac V864 Deville ( a maintenance nightmare)
Pontiac Grand Am (dashboard made from Tonka toy plastic, which allowed holes to be punched into its hollow construction with normal use, water pump failed, motors in window failed all within 2 years:\)
Pontiac GTO (sales went lead)
Buick Lacrosse (sales went lead)
Buick Lucerne (sales went lead
Pontiac Fiero (powertrain nightmare, maintenance nightmare)
GM EV1 (was notorius for catching on fire)
2006 model year Pontiac G6 (has shifting mechanism that feels like it was made by Mattel and wide roof pillars that impede rear view, flimsy hinge construction on trunk lid, excessive body lean)
2006 Chevrolet Equinox (poor brand frequency of repair ratings)
etc., etc., etc...
_______________________
I guess your brain doesn't stretch very far does it. You made that clear with your last statement about the Koran.
Nope it's not very flexible and isn't easily manipulated like yours.
If protecting American jobs means that I have to get ripped off and have to deal with a car that's in the shop 90% of the year, and waste my money when I have a choice of easily buying the better made competition, then forget it, I'm not into protecting American jobs if it means it's to my financial detriment.
Well as 62' has posted many times on these forums with statistical facts you couldn't be further from the truth. I guess it's hard to prove anything factual when the other person has been brain-washed by such non-sense.
Protecting the American jobs you're talking about have to do with the mess and GREED that union workers have caused in the industry and other political nonsense.
Well people that share your opinion tell me quite the opposite and tell me the transplants pay as much and in some cases better than the domestics ? Which is it ?
And by the way, many Americans benefited from the purchase of my Honda Accord and Toyota Corolla, which where both MADE IN THE U.S.A. (Sigh)
Yes they did benefit and I'm not arguing that but many more loss because of it also. I'm not telling you what to buy mediapusher, but it kind of ticked me off when you stereo typed all GM cars as being junk.
I'm very glad to be a different "breed" if the alternative would mean having to live on the east U.S.A. near koo-koo clocks like you
I don't live in the east, so that doesn't apply to me unless you were talking about somebody else ?
Now I have tried to keep my posts on topic, but you have started the tangent discussions into other sub-categories.
I have ? :surprise: :surprise: :surprise: What ? I didn't come into this forum saying I had 30 years of observation experience and came to the conclusion that all GM cars are junk. OMG, nice try !
Rocky
Rocky
Ok, let me tell you this. MY EXPERIENCE with American cars has NOT been good. I've had two, and that was enough. And the moment I switched to Honda and Toyota I didn't have any of the ridiculous problems that I HAD experienced with the domestic junk I had unfortunately purchased. I might as well had thrown my money down the toilet.
I don't need to spend my hard earned money again on their stuff in hopes that it is made decently. Only fools do things like that.
______________________________
RECAP:
And by the way, many Americans benefited from the purchase of my Honda Accord and Toyota Corolla, which where both MADE IN THE U.S.A. (Sigh)
______________________________________
Yes they did benefit and I'm not arguing that but many more loss because of it also. I'm not telling you what to buy mediapusher, but it kind of ticked me off when you stereo typed all GM cars as being junk. That is like a slap in the face to people like LEMKO, who has a few older but well maintained domestic cars with many pleasurable and reliable miles on them.
Ok then why do you think domestic car workers are losing their jobs to foreign competition? Do you think people are being forced to buy Hondas, Toyotas and BMWs in droves? No Rocky, people are purchasing the foreign competition on their own accord. No one is forcing them to do it. :mad:
If the domestic competition was so GREAT as you claim, it could stand on it's own accord(no pun intended) and it wouldn't have to shift blame to the sales success of Toyotas, BMWs, Hondas and Nissans of the world :mad:
I also want you to know just in case Consumer Reports didn't give you the memo that Toyota, had a secret letter sent out to its dealers. The dealers performed a service campaign to get customers in the shop to fix problems that should of been recalled by corporate. They did this for more than 8 years to keep the perception of flawless quality and reliability at a all-time high. Thankfully the japanese government got involved and jailed three top officials at Toyota. :mad:
I suppose it's the perception of having the best is all that matters to someone like you.
Rocky
Ok, let me tell you this. MY EXPERIENCE with American cars has NOT been good. I've had two, and that was enough. And the moment I switched to Honda and Toyota I didn't have any of the ridiculous problems that I HAD experienced with the domestic junk I had unfortunately purchased. I might as well had thrown my money down the toilet.
I'm sorry you got shafted by two domestic cars. Would you care to name me the two and what were their problems ?
I don't need to spend my hard earned money again on their stuff in hopes that it is made decently. Only fools do things like that.
Well I agree.....I guess I've never been seriously shafted by one to know what that feels like. Every domestic car I've owned has been quite reliable.
Ok then why do you think domestic car workers are losing their jobs to foreign competition? Do you think people are being forced to buy Hondas, Toyotas and BMWs in droves? No Rocky, people are purchasing the foreign competition on their own accord. No one is forcing them to do it. :mad:
Toyota, has had the benefit of being embraced by trend setters in Hollyweird, and bought good reviews from media outlets like Consumer Reports. Hell they were so flawless in appearance because they never recalled anything for 8 years giving them a perception of excellence. The media pretty much has shown it's biased because they say nothing or very little about the quality glitches that have plauged toyota in recent times. It really ticks me off. If GM, were to have them they would be on the front page of every newspaper in the country and GM stock would slide 25% in one day. :mad: Honda's appear to be very reliable and are high quality vehicals but who know perhaps they are doing similar secret recalls and haven't been caught yet ??? BMW's we all know aren't super reliable but sell like Mercedes because of prestige.
If the domestic competition was so GREAT as you claim, it could stand on it's own accord(no pun intended) and it wouldn't have to shift blame to the sales success of Toyotas, BMWs, Hondas and Nissans of the world :mad:
They only blame the amount of U.S. tax dollars that foreign company's get for the construction of modern facility's in this country and last but not least they also are ticked off that our do nothin' government refuses to fix the currency manipulation advantage enjoyed by the asians.
Rocky
Go work in their accounting department for a year or so and then tell me that.
One of the reasons BMWs and Mercedes sell is because the feel is a world apart from what you'd get in any domestic car.
Maybe, maybe not but you have to admit that those names carry a lot of weight and that there are people that will claim that they are the best regardless of the reality of the situation.
And... people that buy BMWs and Mercedes are rich.
Not all that buy them are rich, I have seen people get second jobs so that they can buy entry level BMW's and MB's just so that they can say they have one. FWIW the richest person I know buys sub 20K cars and drives them for 10 years.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Julia Roberts, driving her Toyota Prius wasn't trend setting ? :surprise: She went off the deep end a long with other enviromental wack jobs in California, about how all of us should save the enviroment by driving Prius's. I along with another Californian Doctor Michael Savage laughed at her because she pollutes the air with one jet trip from LAX to London, then I perhaps will in my whole lifetime of driving. If you don't think Toyota's Lexus brand isn't trend setting then I don't know what the definition of that word is. :confuse:
The Toyota driver protrays this image "I'm better, smarter, more educated, wealthier, than you"
They buy the vehicle that suits their needs or that they think will suit their needs. I could make the same "trend-setting" arguments about the Cadillac Escalade, with all of it's bling-bling flash and allure.
The "Slade" is about the only vehical from GM, that has a strong image appeal that is often associated with athletes and hip-hop artists. How is a Camry going to suit ones needs better than a Aura ???? -It doesn't but Toyota has the image and perception people want and the Aura doesn't at least yet but I doubt it ever does.
Saying that a person can buy Consumer Report's opinions is like saying a person can buy stock in United Way.
Okay, saying Consumer reports is the Koran of the import crowd was I admit a little harsh. Okay it's the "bible" of the import crowd and most of the subscribers have similar personality characteristics. I do not know of one person who likes or owns domestics that preaches that garbage from that magazine but I do know many import buyers that read that magazine religiously. As some forum posters have stated over the last couple of years that CR subscribers will say nothing but positive thngs about their cars regardless the amount of problems one has with it. I have friends that have lied to me about their car problems with their imports so I wouldn't give them a hard time. I say *laughing* we will take my GM junk to the club because it beats walking. It would make them ticked off of course.
I cannot believe this silly debate. Did you graduate junior high school?
I can't believe we are either. I often have questioned what Arnolds put in the water out their on the left coast. Are you guys sure you haven't had your minds altered and Dr. Savage drinks purified water and is the only sane person left in california ? :P
One of the reasons BMWs and Mercedes sell is because the feel is a world apart from what you'd get in any domestic car.
How would you know ??? You just admitted you've only owned 2 domestics in your lifetime which were probably 1970's or 80's models ? Have you driven a Saturn Aura, to give it a fair "observation" ????? Have you driven a Cadillac, or a Chrysler 300, Lincoln LS, or a MKZ, yet ? Have you even looked at or read reviews on these models ? The Chrysler 300 shares alot of Mercedes parts and some say it drives alot like the MB E-class which its derived from.
It's a much smarter, more sophisticated feel. And... people that buy BMWs and Mercedes are rich.
There's that word "smarter" again from a import loyalist. I think I have a Bingo in my observation of you and the stereo-typical import buyer
My dad has owned 5 BMWs and wouldn't own anything else. He may have a different experience since he's also a mechanic. If a car breaks it's second nature for him to fix it, which he often does.
So is your dad a BMW mechanic ? "Anyone can kick the tires to see if they are low or not" :confuse:
I seriously doubt your father has the diagnostic machinery to fix problems that accompany BMW's unless he's driving pre-1990's models still ? I guess you are a mechnanic now days if you can check the dipstick of such a sophisticated and complicated vehical like a BMW or a Mercedes. I say it's best to leave it up to the experts with those cars.
Also, these people only keep their cars from 1 to 2 years, not long enough to develop any problems.
There J.D. scores say different but whatever.... Consumer Reports must say it's true, so it's true ?
Many of them are leased, so if they do develop problems, the dealer may exchange it for a new one.
What ?????? :confuse: Are you suggesting many of them get lemon-lawed :lemon: That sounds about right
I've seen this happen with a good friend of mine that leases all of his cars, and that's the main reason he leases instead of buys.
:confuse: So you are admitting your friend leases BMW's all the time because he knows within a 1-2 year time frame it will be :lemon: lawed ???? Sounds like a great strategy to get a new car often. I personally wouldn't want to be stranded on I-5 at night with my family waiting on a tow. :surprise: Myself would rather own a Cadillac, so I could make sure my family got home safely.
Rocky
EXACTLY !!!!
Maybe, maybe not but you have to admit that those names carry a lot of weight and that there are people that will claim that they are the best regardless of the reality of the situation.
EXACTLY !!!!
Not all that buy them are rich, I have seen people get second jobs so that they can buy entry level BMW's and MB's just so that they can say they have one. FWIW the richest person I know buys sub 20K cars and drives them for 10 years.
EXACTLY !!!! The riches person I know drives nothing but Cadillac's and domestic trucks. I work with a couple of people who work lots of over-time just to own a Mercedes or BMW to park in their drive way at the Mini-McMansion. These people give us a bad reputation because the public perceives we make more money than we really do. :sick:
The old sayin' in Amarillo is if you work at Pantex, you must be rich. :surprise: Anyone can buy on time and max out a credit card to protray a certain image. However they sneak out to the mailbox when the bills comes.
Rocky
_____________________
Saying that a person can buy Consumer Report's opinions is like saying a person can buy stock in United Way.
Go work in their accounting department for a year or so and then tell me that.
WELL IF THEY EVER GET EXPOSED FOR BEING INVOLVED IN FRAUD AND BRIBERY IT WILL BE THE SHOCK OF THE CENTURY, I CAN ASSURE YOU OF THAT.
One of the reasons BMWs and Mercedes sell is because the feel is a world apart from what you'd get in any domestic car.
Maybe, maybe not but you have to admit that those names carry a lot of weight and that there are people that will claim that they are the best regardless of the reality of the situation.
WHAT I MEANT WAS THE FEEL IS THAT OF CRAFTSMANSHIP AND CARE. FOR INSTANCE, THE INTERIOR OF THEIR CARS AREN'T A CHEAP PLASTIC NIGHTMARE LIKE G.M.'s CARS. THEIR CARS HAVE BETTER FIT AND FINISH, AND ARE ALSO BETTER BALANCED IN TERMS OF WEIGHT PLACEMENT. I SUPPOSE THERE ARE PEOPLE THAT WOULD HAVE BLIND LOYALTY TO MERCEDES AND BMW'S REGARDLESS OF THE REALITY; BUT YOU MUST ADMIT, FEW THINGS BEAT THE THRILL OF DRIVING A BMW 325+ SERIES CARS AT FULL TILT. THE ONLY CAR THAT G.M. MAKES THAT EVEN COMES CLOSE TO A BMW 325 SERIES AND SIMILAR IS THE CADILLAC CTS. THAT'S ALL! WHY DOESN'T G.M. MAKE MORE CARS LIKE THIS? OR AM I MISSING SOMETHING? G.M. SHOULD HAVE BEEN MAKING THE CADILLAC CTS 15 TO 20 YEARS AGO. THAT'S MY WHOLE POINT, SOMETHING ROCKYLEE DOESN'T UNDERSTAND. IF CADILLAC WANTS TO BECOME THE STANDARD THEY NEED TO PUT MORE PERFORMANCE CARS LIKE THE CTS ON THEIR ROSTER.
And... people that buy BMWs and Mercedes are rich.
Not all that buy them are rich, I have seen people get second jobs so that they can buy entry level BMW's and MB's just so that they can say they have one. FWIW the richest person I know buys sub 20K cars and drives them for 10 years.
WELL THOSE PEOPLE ARE PRETTY STUPID AREN'T THEY?? I JUST ASSUMED THEY WERE RICH BECAUSE I COULDN'T SEE HOW ANYONE COULD JUSTIFY SPENDING THAT MUCH MONEY ON A CAR IF THEY WERE AN AVERAGE EARNING PERSON... A HOUSE YES, BUT A CAR, NO
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadillac_Ranch
The Ranch, is in my neck of the woods and visitors from all over the world come visit it each year. Only in Texas, could you find something so dumb that would attract visitors
Rocky
Well let me assure you it wasn't the shock or end of the world that Toyota was hiding recalls for 8 years was it ???? :surprise:
WHAT I MEANT WAS THE FEEL IS THAT OF CRAFTSMANSHIP AND CARE. FOR INSTANCE, THE INTERIOR OF THEIR CARS AREN'T A CHEAP PLASTIC NIGHTMARE LIKE G.M.'s CARS. THEIR CARS HAVE BETTER FIT AND FINISH, AND ARE ALSO BETTER BALANCED IN TERMS OF WEIGHT PLACEMENT. I SUPPOSE THERE ARE PEOPLE THAT WOULD HAVE BLIND LOYALTY TO MERCEDES AND BMW'S REGARDLESS OF THE REALITY
It was only a few years ago when Mercedes got a little cheap on their car interiors. The Mercedes G Class SUV has a interior design that is more awkward than a Pontiac Aztek's exterior. :P BMW's interior materials aren't bad but the design and lay-out of it makes one wonder if they let the school of the blinde have a sculpting day at BMW HQ for the current 3.
BUT YOU MUST ADMIT, FEW THINGS BEAT THE THRILL OF DRIVING A BMW 325+ SERIES CARS AT FULL TILT.
I'd get a helluva lot more thrill driving a Viper, Vette, Z06, CTS-V, Chrysler 300 SRT-8, Jeep Cherokee SRT-8, Charger SRT-8, GTO, STS-V, XLR-V, Mustang, Shelby's various Mustang's, Ford GT, Saturn Sky Redline, Pontiac Soltice GXP, and soon to come on board 502 hp. 08' Pontiac Grand Prix/G8, 09' Camaro, 09' Chevy Impala, 08' Lincoln MKS, 09' Lincoln MKZ, and those are only domestic nameplate cars. If you'd like I could throw in Ford and GM owned brands like Volvo's, Range Rovers, Aston Martin's, Saab's, Jaguar's. :P
THE ONLY CAR THAT G.M. MAKES THAT EVEN COMES CLOSE TO A BMW 325 SERIES AND SIMILAR IS THE CADILLAC CTS.
I suppose for now.....The Holden/Pontiac Grand Prix isn't far away.
THAT'S ALL! WHY DOESN'T G.M. MAKE MORE CARS LIKE THIS? OR AM I MISSING SOMETHING? G.M. SHOULD HAVE BEEN MAKING THE CADILLAC CTS 15 TO 20 YEARS AGO. THAT'S MY WHOLE POINT, SOMETHING ROCKYLEE DOESN'T UNDERSTAND. IF CADILLAC WANTS TO BECOME THE STANDARD THEY NEED TO PUT MORE PERFORMANCE CARS LIKE THE CTS ON THEIR ROSTER.
You will not find anywhere where I posted that said I never thought GM, shouldn't build more performance cars ? :confuse: The people that know me know I want all GM cars to have mega power. Loren (miata1) and i had this discussion a few moths back and he thinks I'm crazy wanting a 600 horsepower CTS-V, and asks where i'm going to drive it. I tell him on the near empty Farm and Market Roads here in the panhandle.
WELL THOSE PEOPLE ARE PRETTY STUPID AREN'T THEY?? I JUST ASSUMED THEY WERE RICH BECAUSE I COULDN'T SEE HOW ANYONE COULD JUSTIFY SPENDING THAT MUCH MONEY ON A CAR IF THEY WERE AN AVERAGE EARNING PERSON... A HOUSE YES, BUT A CAR, NO
You were a little naive to think all the drivers of these premium expensive brands are all rich. We have lots of dumb people in this country that have cars costing more than their trailer or home. I know some of the kids around the neighborhoods that have rims like spinners costing more than their car. People take out 60 year loans on homes or pay interest only loans on homes. What's going to stop these same types from buying cars like a BMW or Mercedes where they have to get a 2nd job to pay for it to keep that image. It's kinda stupid isn't it ? However like we both said not all people are playing with a full deck.
Rocky
Mediapusher has his own opinion and that is the problem with the domestics. After many years of poor products it will take a lot to convince certain parts of the country that their cars are close or on par with the Japanese.
Two GM vehicles will most likely be the North America car/truck of the year but I doubt this will change the minds of some. Quantitative quality/reliability shows that GM products are on par with Toyota/Honda yet that opinion will not change easily. Hence GM's 100k warranty. They are sure of their quality and are doing what they can to convince the public.
First of all if you are going to continue to shout your answers at me I will end this.
Secondly your magazine subscription doesn't cover the cost of printing and mailing the magazine to you. So tell me where do they get that funds to pay staff and to tests?
WHAT I MEANT WAS THE FEEL IS THAT OF CRAFTSMANSHIP AND CARE.
I didn't feel that in the BMW's I was in (really I was mildly disappointed in the BMW's).
WELL THOSE PEOPLE ARE PRETTY STUPID AREN'T THEY??
So drivers of BMW's and MB's are stupid?
What I was saying is that not all owners of these cars are rich, just that they want to portray the image that they are. Some people want the image that they are rich even though they are not.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Nah, Rocky, you got this all wrong, it has nothing about being better, smarter, more educated and wealthier than the others. It's only about "I'm driving a better car than you". Maybe not much for the Toyota owners since most of them just want a reliable commuter box just definitely for the Lexus owners.
Camry is what people want because they see their friends driving it, their family members driving and also their co-worker are driving it. It's all about reputation and reputation isn't built overnight. It took Camry/Accord more than 20 years to achieve this kind of reputation so expecting Aura to have the same within one year is just silly and illogical.
About the CR, Rocky, I'll tell you what, My family only buys imports and all our friends only buy imports as well. However, non of us ever use CR as our buying guide, we go by our own experience and our friends' experience. It is again silly to think that CR contributes a lot in Toyota's success.
I think many people by cars that they can't afford, regardless of brand, Period.
Can we chill out with the caps?
Rocky, you lived in Allegan? I lived in Hopkins for 3 years. [hated every minute of it.]
I think with regards to engineering, I find the engineering of Honda, Audi, Mercedes, and BMW, more interesting, and more in line with my needs/wants in a vehicle, than what the big 2.5 bring to the table.
I would further call that
1. Steering feel.
2. Tactile feel [somewhat of a dash stroker]
3. Gear box feel
4. Clutch take up.
5. Racing technology that filters down to mass produced cars ie, DSG, or FSI in Audis.
This is missing in a big way per big 2.5 offerings IMO, hence, I don't like em.
Really?
I had absolutely no trouble getting warranty repairs done on my Seville STS. The service advisor even alerted me when there was a problem of which I wasn't aware and told me it would be repaired under warranty.
I'd rather take my chance swimming in a tank for of sharks and barracudas wearing a meat suit rather than step foot in another Toyota dealership. Those guys automatically assume you're going to buy a car from them and that they are doing you a favor. I went with my girlfriend to look at a Camry. The car was OK. I don't think my girlfriend was impressed. However, they immediately wisk her away to the salesman's desk as five other guys surround her and push me off to the corner over by a 4Runner. They are throwing all kinds of confusing terms at her and giving her they old, "What will it take for you to buy the car today" scheme. My girlfriend is a very petite women and these were rather large guys. My girlfriend's looking at me with bewilderment with a look in her eyes that says "help!" Some fast talking on my behalf got her out of there intact.
On contrast, the Chevrolet salesman had a pleasant personality, was very laid-back and patient. We came back six times before she bought a new Impala. Several years later we went to the Buick dealer where she bought a LaCrosse. The salesman there was also very professional and in no way did we feel mistreated or abused.
Cadillac Catera ( an electrical system nightmare).
The Catera has been off the market since 2003
Pontiac Aztek (it's ugly, and a the sales went lead)
Yet the exponentially uglier Honda Element is OK because it carries the magic "H" badge?
Cadillac V-8-6-4 Deville ( a maintenance nightmare)
Good God, this was 1981! Besides, the V-8-6-4 is based on the pretty decent 368 V-8. If you disconnect the module for the variable displacement, the car runs very well as a regular eight-cylinder.
Pontiac Grand Am (dashboard made from Tonka toy plastic, which allowed holes to be punched into its hollow construction with normal use, water pump failed, motors in window failed all within 2 years:\)
Yeah? And I could literally tear apart any Nissan interior with my bare hands, especially that of the "tough" Titan.
Pontiac GTO (sales went lead)
Excellent car. Just because a car doesn't sell doesn't make it bad.
Buick Lacrosse (sales went lead)
Girlfriend bought one and I see plenty around here.
Buick Lucerne (sales went lead)
I'll buy one. I see plenty around here.
Pontiac Fiero (powertrain nightmare, maintenance nightmare)
Good God! More Ancient history! The Fiero hasn't been manufactured since 1988. Actually, I heard the '88 is pretty good.
GM EV1 (was notorius for catching on fire)
Really? Now how many private owners had EV-1s? They were distributed among a few people for testing purposes and then returned to GM. The infrastructure to support electric cars doesn't yet exist. Toyonda likes to crow about their hybrids. GM had a car that needed NO gasoline long before hybrids were conceived.
2006 model year Pontiac G6 (has shifting mechanism that feels like it was made by Mattel and wide roof pillars that impede rear view, flimsy hinge construction on trunk lid, excessive body lean)
Really? that's a matter of opinion. I guess if it were a Toyota G6 you'd be singing your hosannahs to it as if it were the golden calf.
2006 Chevrolet Equinox (poor brand frequency of repair ratings)
Proof?
etc., etc., etc...
The basic point is that Consumers Reports is not "biased", although their editors may be, but they have a sample of each make that depends on what the subscribers own, not a ramdom sample of the production that would make comparing one make to another unbiased.
The Bls (Not "Boring Luxury Sedan") is 6" smaller than the Cts. The dimensions are:
Length: 184.3 in.
Width: 69.4 in.
Height: 57 in.
The Cts......... and........9-3's are:
Length.....190.1 in......182.5 in.
Width......70.6 in.......69 in.
Height.....56.7 in.......56.8 in.
Weight.....3509 lbs......3440 lbs.
Wheel Base.113.4 in......105.3 in.
Read more about the BLS here.
-Cj
If I am Caddy I'll bring the BLS over, make it RWD to compete in the entry level luxury performance sedan segment. In other words: make it the new 3-series fighter. In this case then CTS and STS can move upmarking to compete in the midsize luxury and fullsize luxury market, respectively. Should be easy to do so since the CTS is already midsize so all they have to is make sure the next gen STS will be big and luxury enough to compete with the likes of 7-series, S-class and LS.
I'm no consumer reports fan, what they say, or don't say is irrelevant to me re cars. But, I feel the same way about JD Powers. They seem very out of touch with reality. If they were so clued in to quality, then people would be buying it. Then we get in to the whole, American car consumers are idiots, and there is a media conspiracy BS.
Also, FWIW, I've never received a survey from either. That's 4 new cars in the past 7 years.
Ultimately, then can both suck eggs. I don't buy a car based on Car&Driver's say so either, and I' a subscriber.
This will be long, so I apologize in advance. I'll try not to post any more, and leave Britishrover to say in 3 words what I take 30 to say.
Rockylee: "The riches person I know drives nothing but Cadillac's and domestic trucks"
I think this says quite a lot in itself, and needs no further comment. ( I just can't stop giggling, hey. YOU can take it seriously, if you choose).
Actually, I have to agree with many of the comments on both sides of the argument here.
Neither JD Powers nor CU give a complete picture, but they're better than nothing. They're sources of data that must be filtered through personal observation.
BMW's are not cars to own out of warranty, but their customer service is excellent. They FIX the stuff that breaks, and while you're in warranty it's a pleasant experience to own one. God help the pretender who buys an old one.
Cadillac is getting better - but isn't up there yet. Anyone else see the online video by the guy with the CTS-V? It's probably not a typical CTS-V, but R&T was disappointed in theirs too. Chant with me now Cubby Fans and GM Fans "Maybe next year is the year."
Death of a CTS NOTE NOT SAFE FOR WORK!
The 2007 Camry has a LOT of problems. Toyota had better watch their corporate step. Nothing says that they have to stay on top of the world. Honda is chasing them. Toyota: Ask GM what happens when your quality slips. Nobody has to buy your cars. First sludge and now this.
Better still, ask Mercedes. Their reputation has taken a nose-dive. Their SUV's don't have a pretty reputation and the E-class fiasco didn't help. They've kept the sales volume up by expanding the line, but that's a bad move in the end. They'd better straighten up.
The Chrysler 300 is a great car. I've drove a Hemi 300 for about 500 miles and loved it. I'd seriously consider buying one. However the rest of the Chrysler line up is questionable, and their financial picture is bad right now.
GM: The problem for GM is that they've been producing bad cars for 30 years... and they keep swearing every year that THIS is the new car that will change everything.
Well: It wasn't the Vega. Lots of people burned on that one.
It wasn't the Citation, that GM K car.
It wasn't the 864 Caddy.
It wasn't the GM diesel
(skip the horribly 80's for space and weariness reasons)
It wasn't the Aurora. Nice design - bad transmissions
It wasn't the Catera. The German Luxury copy that couldn't.
It wasn't the Aztek - the GM answer to the PT Cruiser
It isn't the Solstice - the fat cutie with the bad interior.
Is it the CTS? Maybeeee.... next year's redesign?
So many disappointments by GM and so many promises that THIS TIME it's going to be different. And then it ain't.
GM always seems to get to step 3 of the 12 step program and then fall off the wagon. For anybody over 30, it's pretty hard to trust them. Me? I think I'll wait a few more years to see if it's really true this time.
Then why do so many people swear by them? (That's you Rockylee) Well, Car and Driver has a good line in the new issue that sums up the GM experience pretty well I think:
"GM cars run bad longer than most cars run at all"
Lemko, you are exempt from the GM woes, because you carefully maintain your cars and fix the small stuff. You are like fintail (your mercedes doppleganger) in that regard and will enjoy your cars for as long as you care to own them (and good for you!)
By the way, Rockylee, C&D also rips the new Camry in this issue, placing it 5th out of 6, behind the Aura, and criticize the quality.
Finally - Lest I be accused of being a boiled-in-German-luxury-leather GM hater, after my Dad passed away a few years back, my mom needed to buy a new car. I recommended a Buick. Nice cars, great quality, and a good dealer in her town. I did the research and made some calls. My mom? She bought a Toyota Avalon despite me. She'd owned GM cars in the past, she said, and didn't want to have to worry without my Dad around to fix things. If you can't sell a Buick to a 70 year-old American....?