Excuse me Rocky, but keeping up with the Jones has nothing to do with it. I've always been the kind of person who beats to the tune of his own drum, so you couldn't be more of base with your "keeping up with the Jones" analogy. Toyotas and Hondas have never had a "keeping up with the Jones" aura anyway. So I don't know what you're talking about.
Then please explain to me why only on the left coast one would find so many of the same brands ? (Toyota & Honda) I only know of one other state that is like California and that is Utah. Utah, like California are very worried about fashion trends and what their neighbor has that they don't. I lived in SLC for a whole summer with my great aunt and couldn't believe how worried people are about others. If you drove a domestic like my aunt did which was a 1990' Ford Mustang you'd get weird looks. Sure some thought it was a very cool car but my aunt knew the people were like "that poor women has to drive that american car" :confuse: Why does she know this because she was asked by several customers why she didn't go down to one of Larry Millers dealerships and get her a nice Toyota or Honda. :mad:
I've test driven domestics and I still think they're pitiful. You probably think I haven't driven the newer models. Well, hmm, let's see, last year I rented a 2006 Pontiac G6. The shift mechanism felt like it was made by Mattel. The car was too heavy giving it excessive body lean on turns. The flimsy trunk axles didn't look like they would last 6 months if that. There were gaps and seams along the driver side window sill (fit and finish) For a small car, the fuel mileage rating was horrible. The wide roof pillars impeded rear veiw, etc.
Well you probably rented the base model G6 which i agree needs to be better. However I doubt 28+ mpg HWY is horrible :surprise: The G6 GTP is a lot better but it's still not as good as it should be. I think the current G6 as we know it won't be around much more than a couple years since GM, wants to make all Pontiac's RWD, which they should. I believe a RWD/AWD G6 size car might work if they went EVO/STI route.
When it comes to refinement, G.M. doesn't have it. As far as being the standard of the world, they must learn what refinement is. Cause in the end it doesn't matter what nameplate of theirs becomes the standard of the world (whatever that means), none of the nameplates are the standard of the world now. On a more positive note, I was impressed with the layout of the instrument panel
Well perhaps you will be more impressed with the 2008' Chevy Malibu and Saturn Aura. I just read in motor trend that a customer can get any choice of engine in any trim level. So that means you can get a ecotec 4 cylinder in LTZ trim. I think the collest aplliance witll be the Saturn Aura Greenline in XR trim :shades:
Thats what my sister said when she recently bought her new Toyota, she said she liked them better and that they were so well made. To bad the Toyota she got rid of couldn't go two months at any one time without breaking down. She seemed to always lose her memory about the reliability of that car.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Then please explain to me why only on the left coast one would find so many of the same brands ? (Toyota & Honda)
Have you been to Atlanta? I believe it is neither "left" nor "coast" but Toyotas and Hondas are running around every where there. Heck, the most popular one over there right now is probably the RX330.
The interior of the new Malibu, Aura and CTS looks good, but until I actually have a chance to sit in there, touch the panels I'll reserve my judgment for now.
I personally would rather own the Lexus because it will still be a thrill to drive when I want to get on it on those special occassions but the majority of the time I can have all the "Gadgetology" and "Comfort" one could ask for.
The advantage of not having to worry about break downs is also a added peace of mind.
If I want something a little more on the sport side of things one can always go buy a Acura.
My point is I think the domestics and the Japanese engineer a better car than the Europeans, especially when money is a object. I however still like many European cars like the 07' Volvo S80.
I however believe the domestics come close or meet the competition and over the next few years I wouldn't be a bit surprised if we exceed them in a few area's.
I however still like many European cars like the 07' Volvo S80.
I personally don't consider both Volvo and Saab "European" anymore. To me they are just glorified Ford and GM, respectively, with European-infused styling.
Have you been to Atlanta? I believe it is neither "left" nor "coast" but Toyotas and Hondas are running around every where there. Heck, the most popular one over there right now is probably the RX330.
I could explain that but I won't.
The interior of the new Malibu, Aura and CTS looks good, but until I actually have a chance to sit in there, touch the panels I'll reserve my judgment for now.
Yeah you will have to do just that. I think the 07' Aura, 08' Malibu, and 08' CTS, will surprise you.
LOL, What ????? The Volvo's are still the same old Volvo's :surprise: I guess I don't understand since Volvo still gets it's own platform and the last generation got sprinkled down to the new Lincoln MKS, 500, Montego to save Ford money.
Saab's will likely share a platform with Opel and perhaps a Holden, or Cadillac. This is the name of the game to be profitable. You have to share parts with your brothers and sisters. It's not like none of the other major car company's aren't doing it.
How could you be surpised you haven't seen the interior yet except in picturs. Unless you went to the LA Auto show, which I highly doubt you did, then you have not even seen the car in person.
I haven't even seen it in person yet although I probably will next month. My boss has and he puts the interior level quality on par with the Range Rover Sport but below the Range Rover.
To keep things on track: with the exception of a handful of excalades and one CTS none of my clients own a Caddy. Range Rover owners have the highest average income of any new car buyer.
Well maybe but I found is amusing, and really aren't we always our best audience? :P
I'm gonna be the devil's advocate here: I think you CAN measure the "best" of something...it's not purely relative though of course everything is relative in the ABSOLUTE...blah blah...
So how can you measure what is the "best"?
1. By voting. If a jury of your peers is polled, and 99 out of 100 pick Eddie's delicatessan, and only 1 picks your favorite, chances are you're wrong--your deli isn't the best, because he/she isn't doing something very well.
2. By testing. If testers/journalists/race car drivers, etc lean heavily toward one model over another in comparative testing, chances are they are noticing something substantive. They can't ALL be "biased" all at once because 'what's the payoff?" Perceiving too much "bias" by too many unassociated people (car magazines in different countries) is probably more paranoia than anything else.
3. By resale value. If the general public will consistently pay the highest possible retail price for something, they are not only "voting", they are voting with their paychecks, which is a very sincere form of voting and which can't be "biased", because it punishes the person doing it.
Mr Shiftright you're absolutely correct. The perception is, people that drive domestics have no taste and are tacky. Whether this is true or not, I don't know, but it is definitely the perception. So as far as Cadillac being thet standard of the world...LOL! That makes me laugh big time...As if it ever was the standard of the world, puhleez..
Mediapusher .......................... Above message in reponse to: I mean, resistance to domestics is pretty strong out here....you can even see it in the match.com ads: "Please, no Corvette drivers" (cross my heart I've seen that more than once---LOL!)
Well that's really past history isn't it? I mean, the days of fake landau bars and brothel interiors and opera windows?
How long does it take for a car company to be forgiven anyway?
This "image" thing must get burned into our brains pretty deeply, and apparently even gets passed from father to son.
Harley Davidson changed its image. Basically it FIRED all its customers and found new ones...no, I mean REALLY.
What Harley did was make riding a Harley a respectable family event while maintaining a vague sense of rebel/outlaw without really meaning it. Brilliant, actually.
Range Rover did the same with the SUV. Their clientele is hardly the grungy outdoorsman anymore.
So if we were to accept, strictly for arguments sake that Cadillac doesn't have to build the best car, then how can Cadillac change its image, or continue to do so? What's the plan? How to erase FOREVER the image of grandpa driving 32 mph on sofa cushions?
Let's be frank here, I truly think Toyota/Honda's success was built on GM/Ford/Chrysler's failures. If not 100% but at least 50%. If the imports don't shoot themselves in the feet then I really don't see the domestics returning to their glory days.
How could you be surpised you haven't seen the interior yet except in picturs. Unless you went to the LA Auto show, which I highly doubt you did, then you have not even seen the car in person.
I haven't even seen it in person yet although I probably will next month. My boss has and he puts the interior level quality on par with the Range Rover Sport but below the Range Rover.
Well it looked cheap to me for a Range Rover. I thought of you and had to go check out the LR-2 on y'alls us site.
To keep things on track: with the exception of a handful of excalades and one CTS none of my clients own a Caddy. Range Rover owners have the highest average income of any new car buyer.
I do doubt Range Rover owners have the highest income.
Mr Shiftright of course it gets passed down from generation to generation and gets burned into our memories. I don't think the fake landau bars and opera windows image is gone yet. That's part of what's hindering G.M. in the U.S.A. They're not taken seriously because they haven't been serious for so much of the past. What serious driver thinks of General Motors when they think of a car? Why would they think producing junk in the late 70's, all of 80's, all of 90's would help the public's perception of them? I don't get it. Their bad reputation was built over many years and it will take just as long if not much longer for people to get over that. Toyota and Honda's cars sell well mainly because of their great reputation and reliable products, something General Motors can only dream of in terms of great reputation. I hear (as I cross my fingers) that their reliability has improved, but like me as many are still cautious of that claim based on the horrors of the past. I'm not sure they're even dreaming of it, the corporation acts like they're on crystal-meth half the time.
Take a look at the inside of a Buick Lucerne and tell me what kind of feeling you get. Again, this is another tired luxoboat from General Motors, just what the Acura TSX, BMW and Scion crowd doesn't want. And if they think the Buick Lucerne competes with the Lexus ES330 and above they are sorely deluded. And there is virtually no difference, if any between the interiors of the Buick Lacrosse and Lucerne :sick:
Standard of the World? LOL! Whether Cadillac, Buick, Saturn whatever, they have a long way to go before becoming standard of the world, (whatever that means), cause they were never the standard of the world anyway, and the fact they still make Cadillac DTS's (a rebadged Coupe/Sedan DeVille line) doesn't help the situation. ---mediapusher _______________________________________
Well that's really past history isn't it? I mean, the days of fake landau bars and brothel interiors and opera windows?
How long does it take for a car company to be forgiven anyway?
This "image" thing must get burned into our brains pretty deeply, and apparently even gets passed from father to son. ----Mr Shiftright
just because people buy doesn't make it the best. Oprah, was very influential with her reccommendation of the Pontiac G6 and tens of thousands of women went out and baught one. Was the G6 the best car in its segment ???? Nope !!!!
When you live out in california, pretty much everyone wants to look like a star or at least blend, in a positive way. Toyota, has a very strong image on the left coast with many "green" people. Certain "green" celebrity's like Julia Roberts, going off the deep end about how people need to care about the enviroment and air on national TV has helped further toyota's image. She does have clout out there and yes drives a Prius. Other celebrity's preach the same things and Toyota, has positioned themselves as the green company even though GM, has more cars that get over 30 mpg than toyota. :confuse: The bottom line is Toyota, should be given credit with having the best marketing team on the planet. They are able to get their message accross through the media outlets and I'm sure have lined the pockets of very influential people and don't need celebrity's to be in TV commercials but get them a mic or photgraphed pulling out of the garage in one of their products has more credibility than a commercial.
Mr Shiftright you're absolutely correct. The perception is, people that drive domestics have no taste and are tacky. Whether this is true or not, I don't know, but it is definitely the perception. So as far as Cadillac being thet standard of the world...LOL! That makes me laugh big time...As if it ever was the standard of the world, puhleez..
We all know you feel that way. Your perception is shaired by many. :sick:
Because they build better cars and this time people got the memo.
Lets's just say the majority of people living in Atlanta, are influenced very easily by name brands that athlete's, hip-hop, comedians, etc, endorse or fits their image, and in some cases they own. They are very brand loyal if you know what I mean.
Lets's just say the majority of people living in Atlanta, are influenced very easily by name brands that athlete's, hip-hop, comedians, etc, endorse or fits their image, and in some cases they own. They are very brand loyal.
HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAH....
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAH....
AHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAH....
HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHA....
Someone needs to get out of Texas more.
Trust me here Rocky, I live in Atlanta for 10 years and people here whom are influenced by athletes, hip-hop and comedians usually don't drive. They use this form of transportation calls "MARTA". This thing has 6 cars tied together and rides on rail.
I can't believe you need this explained to you. It's because they tried the other brands and then tried Toyota and Honda. And once a person realizes how much they were getting ripped off, why would they go back to a Chrysler, Ford, Chevrolet. It is well known that American car companies rely very heavily on their cars breaking down so their customers have to pay for parts, a LOT OF PARTS! Of course most of those people in UTAH were shaking their heads at the 1990 Mustang (what a piece of "work" those things were )So listen to your Great Aunt, apparently she has lot more sense than you do. And age has nothing to do with it. I'm sure I'm a lot younger than she is.
You and your Saturn Aura kick. How do you expect people to warm up to the Saturn Aura? It was just introduced! It's new. Where's the brand recognition and stability when it comes to G.M. with the exception of Cadillac, Chevrolet and GMC. The Saturns I have driven and sat in, in the past feel cheaper than cheap to drive, and the interiors are grostesquely cheap, so I'm not to eager to jump on the band wagon and try out a Saturn Aura.
G.M. and Ford introduce and discontinue more models than the towels that Leona Helmsley uses to bathe with (She reportedly uses at least 25 towels in a single bathing session) ... Standard of the World? What a joke..Before any of G.M.'s brands become standard of the world one of the things they're going to have to do is stop behaving in such an erratic fashion. --mediapusher ________________________
Then please explain to me why only on the left coast one would find so many of the same brands ? (Toyota & Honda) I only know of one other state that is like California and that is Utah. Utah, like California are very worried about fashion trends and what their neighbor has that they don't. --RockyLee
Trust me here Rocky, I live in Atlanta for 10 years and people here whom are influenced by athletes, hip-hop and comedians usually don't drive. They use this form of transportation calls "MARTA". This thing has 6 cars tied together and rides on rail.
Well how many years ago ????......The modern Atlanta, is as I described.
I can't believe you need this explained to you. It's because they tried the other brands and then tried Toyota and Honda. And once a person realizes how much they were getting ripped off, why would they go back to a Chrysler, Ford, Chevrolet. It is well known that American car companies rely very heavily on their cars breaking down so their customers have to pay for parts, a LOT OF PARTS! Of course most of those people in UTAH were shaking their heads at the 1990 Mustang (what a piece of "work" those things were )So listen to your Great Aunt, apparently she has lot more sense than you do. And age has nothing to do with it. I'm sure I'm a lot younger than she is.
My great aunt use to make fun of the people driving foreign cars and would never give them a lift if they broke down. My great aunt has enough sense to not swallow the Japanese hook as she wants to drive something made and owned by americans.
You and your Saturn Aura kick. How do you expect people to warm up to the Saturn Aura? It was just introduced! It's new. Where's the brand recognition and stability when it comes to G.M. with the exception of Cadillac, Chevrolet and GMC. The Saturns I have driven and sat in, in the past feel cheaper than cheap to drive, and the interiors are grostesquely cheap, so I'm not to eager to jump on the band wagon and try out a Saturn Aura.
What are you afraid you might have to admit it's nicer than your camcords ????
G.M. and Ford introduce and discontinue more models than the towels that Leona Helmsley uses to bathe with (She reportedly uses at least 25 towels in a single bathing session) ... Standard of the World? What a joke..Before any of G.M.'s brands become standard of the world one of the things they're going to have to do is stop behaving in such an erratic fashion.
They also have twice the number of vehicals for a wide variety of audience. I see nothing wrong with this but obviously Toyota, has had success with a lot less.
Mr Shiftright, no it wouldn't matter, because G.M. wants to stick to their tacky, grostesquely cheap plastic interiors. That turns many buyers off because it's gross. That's G.M. for ya, always cutting corners where people notice the most _____________________________
Yes and if Cadillac were right at the top, with say half the problems that Lexus has, they still would not sell any more cars, and people would still talk about the problems with the 8-6-4 and the 4100.
What the J. D. Power survey shows is that Cadillac's are not bad cars, and probably are as good in dependability as Lexus/Toyota.
Truth is if domestic manufacturers (I mean both management and employees) had spent half od their energy they did on lobbing, whinning, crying, building conspiracy theories, waving flag, rallying their troops, playing all scare with "job losses" etc. on real improvements of their product they would already be out of trouble.
The should have been down in early 90s already but got a break thanks to cheap gas and SUV craze. How did they use it? Contracts with unions to pay for not working, the same engines and transmissions for ages, no changes in the structures. Finally, the sweet 90c gas (in SE anyway) was over and they had ABSOLUTELY NOTHING prepared.
Ironically Cadillac brand is probably in the least trouble. They have some big problems, but they have their market and it's pretty stable for the next 10-15 years at least. It's their lower brands that are being beaten unconcious by the competition.
No, my "dear", it's about first impressions. My first impressions with Saturn weren't very good at all when I tried one out 3 years ago. THAT HAS BURNED IN MY MEMORY. Cheap plastics, and I felt like was driving a bucket of bolts. ____________________________
What are you afraid you might have to admit it's nicer than your camcordsI don't have to proclaim that my CamCords are nicer than any of the Saturn junk you're fond of. Most people know that except you. Not wanting to test a new Saturn is because I feel like i'll be wasting my time and I like many, I am assuming they're worse than Toyotas and Honda, based on what I've experienced with Saturns in the past ___________________ You and your Saturn Aura kick. How do you expect people to warm up to the Saturn Aura? It was just introduced! It's new. Where's the brand recognition and stability when it comes to G.M. with the exception of Cadillac, Chevrolet and GMC. The Saturns I have driven and sat in, in the past feel cheaper than cheap to drive, and the interiors are grostesquely cheap, so I'm not to eager to jump on the band wagon and try out a Saturn Aura. ????
Despite lacking a RWD fullsize sedan Cadillac actually has a pretty competitive lineup. Few suggestions to make it even better:
- Make the next gen STS even more competitive - Need a real X5 fighter, station wagon on high heels like the SRX wouldn't cut it - Need a X3/RDX fighter - Make next gen DTS RWD
No, my "dear", it's about first impressions. My first impressions with Saturn weren't very good at all when I tried one out 3 years ago. THAT HAS BURNED IN MY MEMORY. Cheap plastics, and I felt like was driving a bucket of bolts.
I don't have to proclaim that my CamCords are nicer than any of the Saturn junk you're fond of. Most people know that except you. Not wanting to test a new Saturn is because I feel like i'll be wasting my time and I like many, I am assuming they're worse than Toyotas and Honda, based on what I've experienced with Saturns in the past
Yeah I've had that same feeling riding in my friends former 92 Camry. It was so put togeather the dashes hard plastic started to crack but of course those things don't actually happen to imports.
America builds cars that sell best in japan and vice versa!! Buick sells GREAT overseas and is looked at like "EUGH, OLD PEOPLE ALERT". Also honda/toyota don't sell as well at home as they do here... HOW IRONIC! Its sad that americans have trouble finding americans tastes! Take The B.ob L.utz S.pecial (BLS) for example! A vehicle like the Cadillac BLS would sell greatly here! Its a great and welcome change.
In america, people like to be different and thats what makes america beautiful. From hip-hop to country, its all unique! Car example: Scion Xa and scion Xb sales.
The Xb is practically the perfect (for america) car. Its Cheap ($14kbase), spacious (Have you driven it? It has a 360º view!), fuel efficient(MPG in the 30s), and different(not all are the same)! Add it all up and that equals a car toyota is having trouble keeping staying on the lot. It may be boxy but it is all of the above!
The toyota FJ cruiser is a different story. I don't know why its selling but i do know its different from anything on the road, relatively inexpensive($23kbase), and great view in all (forward) directions.
Now lets review the BLS. Its small, could be inexpensive, fuel efficient (42mpg highway with the diesel), and different! Its the perfect vehicle for its class and missing sales for cadillac. As long as the Diesel engine is ready for american soil (event if not 50state legal) who cares! It makes 155hp and everyone should know that diesels makes TONS of torque and decent hp.
Well really the Toyota green "image" isn't an image...the company really fielded the world's first practical hybrid and it really works and you really do get 44 mpg on a bad day. And you really can drive a BMW like a madman on the autobahn at 150 mph all day long and you really can carve up a mountain road with a BMW 4-door entry level sedan.
Whether people get silly about these products is another matter, but the fact is that Toyota and BMW have more on the end of their wrenches than PR talk IMO.
toyota and BMW "deliver the goods" and people have come to trust that. It's like I guess a high-line hotel chain. You know wherever you check in, you're going to get the experience they promised you.
To me (right or wrong as I may be) buying a domestic car feels like Russian roulette. I could be happy as a clam or I could get a bullet in my head.
For some reason I feel a bit more at ease with a domestic truck...not sure how I got that attitude but there it is. Maybe because I have lower expectations for a truck and tend to appreciate its utility?
The Xb is practically the perfect (for america) car. Its Cheap ($14kbase), spacious (Have you driven it? It has a 360º view!), fuel efficient(MPG in the 30s), and different(not all are the same)!
You forgot to mention ugly, I mean really really ugly, I mean its a "what were they thinking when they designed that?" ugly.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
>Well really the Toyota green "image" isn't an image...the company really fielded the world's first practical hybrid and it really works and you really do get 44 mpg on a bad day.
I see a Corolla with a hybrid sign on the trunk around my small area occasionally. Apparently the first Toyo hybrids were in the body shell of a Corolla. How many hybrids would Toyo have sold it that were still the case?
Do you think th weird skin and styling(?) on the Prius along with the strange name has anything to do with the sales and perceived image of the car among the green group?
You missed the point. The car is several years old. It was before the jukebox version.
I.e., 1999
Think this car would have sold to the green folks? and the "celebrities" who drive one for PR photos and then hop in their motorhome for the rest of their trips.
Then please explain to me why only on the left coast one would find so many of the same brands ? (Toyota & Honda)
I actually don't think it's California who is different. I think it is the fact that the domestic makes have an extra advantage in the midwest.
One, because the nature of more blue collar jobs requires more trucks and large vehicles.
Two, because the heavier concentration of domestic automobile manufacturing has created extra loyalty in the midwest that is much less present on the coasts.
Finally, at the coasts you have a higher concentration of immigrants than in the midwest, as somebody mentioned. It's not that those immigrants are going to buy their own country cars (Japanese buying Toyota, Korean buying Hyundai, etc.). It's that the immigrants are first generation and don't have the domestic loyalty that the locals might. So they buy purely on features, quality, and reputation.
I suspect that we would see even a greater penetration of what have been higher quality vehicles from the overseas nameplates (certainly in the '80's and 90's, we can argue about today) had the midwest NOT had these special advantages. So rather than bemoaning the weirdness of the coasts, we should complain about the unfair disadvantages that the imports have in the midwest!
The Xb is practically the perfect (for america) car. Its Cheap ($14kbase), spacious (Have you driven it? It has a 360º view!), fuel efficient(MPG in the 30s), and different(not all are the same)!
You forgot to mention ugly, I mean really really ugly, I mean its a "what were they thinking when they designed that?" ugly.
I think the Xb is an awful lot cuter than the Aztec.
It may not be the best looking thing on the road but is far from the worst (Pontiac Aztec comes to mind). Google Toyota bB for a preview of the next generation of scion xB.
Looks MUCH better than the current xB which was designed in 1999 in japan.
And still the xB is selling better than many more domestic vehicles! The xB is basically the "perfect" car for a young and old driver. Toyota got that one right. Same goes for the tC!
Cadillac needs a lambda to replace the SRX crossover and that pitiful excuse for a third row seat!! Its a mat and a backboard with a mini pillow on the floor!!
HEy hey now! Did the picture help any!! And Frankenstien was much better looking than the blob!! Frankenstien was such a sad story... ANYWAYS, the picture is my prediction of the next geeneration of the scion xB aka the "Box on wheels" thats flying off lots unlike the aztec in all its years!
Comments
Then please explain to me why only on the left coast one would find so many of the same brands ? (Toyota & Honda) I only know of one other state that is like California and that is Utah. Utah, like California are very worried about fashion trends and what their neighbor has that they don't. I lived in SLC for a whole summer with my great aunt and couldn't believe how worried people are about others. If you drove a domestic like my aunt did which was a 1990' Ford Mustang you'd get weird looks. Sure some thought it was a very cool car but my aunt knew the people were like "that poor women has to drive that american car" :confuse: Why does she know this because she was asked by several customers why she didn't go down to one of Larry Millers dealerships and get her a nice Toyota or Honda. :mad:
I've test driven domestics and I still think they're pitiful. You probably think I haven't driven the newer models. Well, hmm, let's see, last year I rented a 2006 Pontiac G6. The shift mechanism felt like it was made by Mattel. The car was too heavy giving it excessive body lean on turns. The flimsy trunk axles didn't look like they would last 6 months if that. There were gaps and seams along the driver side window sill (fit and finish) For a small car, the fuel mileage rating was horrible. The wide roof pillars impeded rear veiw, etc.
Well you probably rented the base model G6 which i agree needs to be better. However I doubt 28+ mpg HWY is horrible :surprise: The G6 GTP is a lot better but it's still not as good as it should be. I think the current G6 as we know it won't be around much more than a couple years since GM, wants to make all Pontiac's RWD, which they should. I believe a RWD/AWD G6 size car might work if they went EVO/STI route.
When it comes to refinement, G.M. doesn't have it. As far as being the standard of the world, they must learn what refinement is. Cause in the end it doesn't matter what nameplate of theirs becomes the standard of the world (whatever that means), none of the nameplates are the standard of the world now. On a more positive note, I was impressed with the layout of the instrument panel
Well perhaps you will be more impressed with the 2008' Chevy Malibu and Saturn Aura. I just read in motor trend that a customer can get any choice of engine in any trim level. So that means you can get a ecotec 4 cylinder in LTZ trim. I think the collest aplliance witll be the Saturn Aura Greenline in XR trim :shades:
Rocky
Thats what my sister said when she recently bought her new Toyota, she said she liked them better and that they were so well made. To bad the Toyota she got rid of couldn't go two months at any one time without breaking down. She seemed to always lose her memory about the reliability of that car.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Have you been to Atlanta? I believe it is neither "left" nor "coast" but Toyotas and Hondas are running around every where there. Heck, the most popular one over there right now is probably the RX330.
The interior of the new Malibu, Aura and CTS looks good, but until I actually have a chance to sit in there, touch the panels I'll reserve my judgment for now.
I personally would rather own the Lexus because it will still be a thrill to drive when I want to get on it on those special occassions but the majority of the time I can have all the "Gadgetology" and "Comfort" one could ask for.
The advantage of not having to worry about break downs is also a added peace of mind.
If I want something a little more on the sport side of things one can always go buy a Acura.
My point is I think the domestics and the Japanese engineer a better car than the Europeans, especially when money is a object. I however still like many European cars like the 07' Volvo S80.
I however believe the domestics come close or meet the competition and over the next few years I wouldn't be a bit surprised if we exceed them in a few area's.
Rocky
Rocky
I personally don't consider both Volvo and Saab "European" anymore. To me they are just glorified Ford and GM, respectively, with European-infused styling.
I could explain that but I won't.
The interior of the new Malibu, Aura and CTS looks good, but until I actually have a chance to sit in there, touch the panels I'll reserve my judgment for now.
Yeah you will have to do just that. I think the 07' Aura, 08' Malibu, and 08' CTS, will surprise you.
Rocky
Saab's will likely share a platform with Opel and perhaps a Holden, or Cadillac. This is the name of the game to be profitable. You have to share parts with your brothers and sisters. It's not like none of the other major car company's aren't doing it.
Rocky
I haven't even seen it in person yet although I probably will next month. My boss has and he puts the interior level quality on par with the Range Rover Sport but below the Range Rover.
To keep things on track: with the exception of a handful of excalades and one CTS none of my clients own a Caddy. Range Rover owners have the highest average income of any new car buyer.
I'm gonna be the devil's advocate here: I think you CAN measure the "best" of something...it's not purely relative though of course everything is relative in the ABSOLUTE...blah blah...
So how can you measure what is the "best"?
1. By voting. If a jury of your peers is polled, and 99 out of 100 pick Eddie's delicatessan, and only 1 picks your favorite, chances are you're wrong--your deli isn't the best, because he/she isn't doing something very well.
2. By testing. If testers/journalists/race car drivers, etc lean heavily toward one model over another in comparative testing, chances are they are noticing something substantive. They can't ALL be "biased" all at once because 'what's the payoff?" Perceiving too much "bias" by too many unassociated people (car magazines in different countries) is probably more paranoia than anything else.
3. By resale value. If the general public will consistently pay the highest possible retail price for something, they are not only "voting", they are voting with their paychecks, which is a very sincere form of voting and which can't be "biased", because it punishes the person doing it.
Mediapusher
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Above message in reponse to:
I mean, resistance to domestics is pretty strong out here....you can even see it in the match.com ads: "Please, no Corvette drivers" (cross my heart I've seen that more than once---LOL!)
Mr Shiftright
I could explain too and I would...
Because they build better cars and this time people got the memo.
How long does it take for a car company to be forgiven anyway?
This "image" thing must get burned into our brains pretty deeply, and apparently even gets passed from father to son.
Harley Davidson changed its image. Basically it FIRED all its customers and found new ones...no, I mean REALLY.
What Harley did was make riding a Harley a respectable family event while maintaining a vague sense of rebel/outlaw without really meaning it. Brilliant, actually.
Range Rover did the same with the SUV. Their clientele is hardly the grungy outdoorsman anymore.
So if we were to accept, strictly for arguments sake that Cadillac doesn't have to build the best car, then how can Cadillac change its image, or continue to do so? What's the plan? How to erase FOREVER the image of grandpa driving 32 mph on sofa cushions?
I haven't even seen it in person yet although I probably will next month. My boss has and he puts the interior level quality on par with the Range Rover Sport but below the Range Rover.
Well it looked cheap to me for a Range Rover. I thought of you and had to go check out the LR-2 on y'alls us site.
To keep things on track: with the exception of a handful of excalades and one CTS none of my clients own a Caddy. Range Rover owners have the highest average income of any new car buyer.
I do doubt Range Rover owners have the highest income.
Rocky
Take a look at the inside of a Buick Lucerne and tell me what kind of feeling you get. Again, this is another tired luxoboat from General Motors, just what the Acura TSX, BMW and Scion crowd doesn't want. And if they think the Buick Lucerne competes with the Lexus ES330 and above they are sorely deluded. And there is virtually no difference, if any between the interiors of the Buick Lacrosse and Lucerne :sick:
Standard of the World? LOL! Whether Cadillac, Buick, Saturn whatever, they have a long way to go before becoming standard of the world, (whatever that means), cause they were never the standard of the world anyway, and the fact they still make Cadillac DTS's (a rebadged Coupe/Sedan DeVille line) doesn't help the situation.
---mediapusher
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Well that's really past history isn't it? I mean, the days of fake landau bars and brothel interiors and opera windows?
How long does it take for a car company to be forgiven anyway?
This "image" thing must get burned into our brains pretty deeply, and apparently even gets passed from father to son.
----Mr Shiftright
just because people buy doesn't make it the best. Oprah,
was very influential with her reccommendation of the Pontiac G6 and tens of thousands of women went out and baught one. Was the G6 the best car in its segment ???? Nope !!!!
When you live out in california, pretty much everyone wants to look like a star or at least blend, in a positive way. Toyota, has a very strong image on the left coast with many "green" people.
Rocky
We all know you feel that way.
Rocky
Lets's just say the majority of people living in Atlanta, are influenced very easily by name brands that athlete's, hip-hop, comedians, etc, endorse or fits their image, and in some cases they own. They are very brand loyal if you know what I mean.
Rocky
HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAH....
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAH....
AHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAH....
HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHA....
Someone needs to get out of Texas more.
Trust me here Rocky, I live in Atlanta for 10 years and people here whom are influenced by athletes, hip-hop and comedians usually don't drive. They use this form of transportation calls "MARTA". This thing has 6 cars tied together and rides on rail.
You and your Saturn Aura kick. How do you expect people to warm up to the Saturn Aura? It was just introduced! It's new. Where's the brand recognition and stability when it comes to G.M. with the exception of Cadillac, Chevrolet and GMC. The Saturns I have driven and sat in, in the past feel cheaper than cheap to drive, and the interiors are grostesquely cheap, so I'm not to eager to jump on the band wagon and try out a Saturn Aura.
G.M. and Ford introduce and discontinue more models than the towels that Leona Helmsley uses to bathe with (She reportedly uses at least 25 towels in a single bathing session) ... Standard of the World? What a joke..Before any of G.M.'s brands become standard of the world one of the things they're going to have to do is stop behaving in such an erratic fashion.
--mediapusher
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Then please explain to me why only on the left coast one would find so many of the same brands ? (Toyota & Honda) I only know of one other state that is like California and that is Utah. Utah, like California are very worried about fashion trends and what their neighbor has that they don't.
--RockyLee
Trust me here Rocky, I live in Atlanta for 10 years and people here whom are influenced by athletes, hip-hop and comedians usually don't drive. They use this form of transportation calls "MARTA". This thing has 6 cars tied together and rides on rail.
Well how many years ago ????......The modern Atlanta, is as I described.
Rocky
My great aunt use to make fun of the people driving foreign cars and would never give them a lift if they broke down. My great aunt has enough sense to not swallow the Japanese hook as she wants to drive something made and owned by americans.
You and your Saturn Aura kick. How do you expect people to warm up to the Saturn Aura? It was just introduced! It's new. Where's the brand recognition and stability when it comes to G.M. with the exception of Cadillac, Chevrolet and GMC. The Saturns I have driven and sat in, in the past feel cheaper than cheap to drive, and the interiors are grostesquely cheap, so I'm not to eager to jump on the band wagon and try out a Saturn Aura.
What are you afraid you might have to admit it's nicer than your camcords ????
G.M. and Ford introduce and discontinue more models than the towels that Leona Helmsley uses to bathe with (She reportedly uses at least 25 towels in a single bathing session) ... Standard of the World? What a joke..Before any of G.M.'s brands become standard of the world one of the things they're going to have to do is stop behaving in such an erratic fashion.
They also have twice the number of vehicals for a wide variety of audience. I see nothing wrong with this but obviously Toyota, has had success with a lot less.
Rocky
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Yes and if Cadillac were right at the top, with say half the problems that Lexus has, they still would not sell any more cars, and people would still talk about the problems with the 8-6-4 and the 4100.
What the J. D. Power survey shows is that Cadillac's are not bad cars, and probably are as good in dependability as Lexus/Toyota.
I do live there ya know?
Truth is if domestic manufacturers (I mean both management and employees) had spent half od their energy they did on lobbing, whinning, crying, building conspiracy theories, waving flag, rallying their troops, playing all scare with "job losses" etc. on real improvements of their product they would already be out of trouble.
The should have been down in early 90s already but got a break thanks to cheap gas and SUV craze. How did they use it? Contracts with unions to pay for not working, the same engines and transmissions for ages, no changes in the structures. Finally, the sweet 90c gas (in SE anyway) was over and they had ABSOLUTELY NOTHING prepared.
Ironically Cadillac brand is probably in the least trouble. They have some big problems, but they have their market and it's pretty stable for the next 10-15 years at least. It's their lower brands that are being beaten unconcious by the competition.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
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What are you afraid you might have to admit it's nicer than your camcords I don't have to proclaim that my CamCords are nicer than any of the Saturn junk you're fond of. Most people know that except you. Not wanting to test a new Saturn is because I feel like i'll be wasting my time and I like many, I am assuming they're worse than Toyotas and Honda, based on what I've experienced with Saturns in the past
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You and your Saturn Aura kick. How do you expect people to warm up to the Saturn Aura? It was just introduced! It's new. Where's the brand recognition and stability when it comes to G.M. with the exception of Cadillac, Chevrolet and GMC. The Saturns I have driven and sat in, in the past feel cheaper than cheap to drive, and the interiors are grostesquely cheap, so I'm not to eager to jump on the band wagon and try out a Saturn Aura.
????
Rocky
Caddy is the least that GM has to worry about.
Despite lacking a RWD fullsize sedan Cadillac actually has a pretty competitive lineup. Few suggestions to make it even better:
- Make the next gen STS even more competitive
- Need a real X5 fighter, station wagon on high heels like the SRX wouldn't cut it
- Need a X3/RDX fighter
- Make next gen DTS RWD
Mark my words: People in Atlanta don't buy cars based on athletes and hip pop influence.
I don't have to proclaim that my CamCords are nicer than any of the Saturn junk you're fond of. Most people know that except you. Not wanting to test a new Saturn is because I feel like i'll be wasting my time and I like many, I am assuming they're worse than Toyotas and Honda, based on what I've experienced with Saturns in the past
Yeah I've had that same feeling riding in my friends former 92 Camry. It was so put togeather the dashes hard plastic started to crack but of course those things don't actually happen to imports.
Rocky
America builds cars that sell best in japan and vice versa!! Buick sells GREAT overseas and is looked at like "EUGH, OLD PEOPLE ALERT". Also honda/toyota don't sell as well at home as they do here... HOW IRONIC! Its sad that americans have trouble finding americans tastes! Take The B.ob L.utz S.pecial (BLS) for example! A vehicle like the Cadillac BLS would sell greatly here! Its a great and welcome change.
In america, people like to be different and thats what makes america beautiful. From hip-hop to country, its all unique! Car example: Scion Xa and scion Xb sales.
The Xb is practically the perfect (for america) car. Its Cheap ($14kbase), spacious (Have you driven it? It has a 360º view!), fuel efficient(MPG in the 30s), and different(not all are the same)! Add it all up and that equals a car toyota is having trouble keeping staying on the lot. It may be boxy but it is all of the above!
The toyota FJ cruiser is a different story. I don't know why its selling but i do know its different from anything on the road, relatively inexpensive($23kbase), and great view in all (forward) directions.
Now lets review the BLS. Its small, could be inexpensive, fuel efficient (42mpg highway with the diesel), and different! Its the perfect vehicle for its class and missing sales for cadillac. As long as the Diesel engine is ready for american soil (event if not 50state legal) who cares! It makes 155hp and everyone should know that diesels makes TONS of torque and decent hp.
Read any BLS review! Heres a decent one and this one has the specs.
-Cj
By the attitude by many here I would say immediately if its an import and never if its a domestic.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Whether people get silly about these products is another matter, but the fact is that Toyota and BMW have more on the end of their wrenches than PR talk IMO.
toyota and BMW "deliver the goods" and people have come to trust that. It's like I guess a high-line hotel chain. You know wherever you check in, you're going to get the experience they promised you.
To me (right or wrong as I may be) buying a domestic car feels like Russian roulette. I could be happy as a clam or I could get a bullet in my head.
For some reason I feel a bit more at ease with a domestic truck...not sure how I got that attitude but there it is. Maybe because I have lower expectations for a truck and tend to appreciate its utility?
You forgot to mention ugly, I mean really really ugly, I mean its a "what were they thinking when they designed that?" ugly.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
It's the chic thing to do in some age groups. See Rocky's earlier explanation in this discussion. Same for element and xb.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I see a Corolla with a hybrid sign on the trunk around my small area occasionally. Apparently the first Toyo hybrids were in the body shell of a Corolla. How many hybrids would Toyo have sold it that were still the case?
Do you think th weird skin and styling(?) on the Prius along with the strange name has anything to do with the sales and perceived image of the car among the green group?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I don't think Toyota has a hybrid Corolla yet.
The only hybrids currently in the Toyota lineup are Camry, Highlander and of course Prius. Hybrids in Lexus lineup are RX, GS and the upcoming LS.
I.e., 1999
Think this car would have sold to the green folks? and the "celebrities" who drive one for PR photos and then hop in their motorhome for the rest of their trips.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I actually don't think it's California who is different. I think it is the fact that the domestic makes have an extra advantage in the midwest.
One, because the nature of more blue collar jobs requires more trucks and large vehicles.
Two, because the heavier concentration of domestic automobile manufacturing has created extra loyalty in the midwest that is much less present on the coasts.
Finally, at the coasts you have a higher concentration of immigrants than in the midwest, as somebody mentioned. It's not that those immigrants are going to buy their own country cars (Japanese buying Toyota, Korean buying Hyundai, etc.). It's that the immigrants are first generation and don't have the domestic loyalty that the locals might. So they buy purely on features, quality, and reputation.
I suspect that we would see even a greater penetration of what have been higher quality vehicles from the overseas nameplates (certainly in the '80's and 90's, we can argue about today) had the midwest NOT had these special advantages. So rather than bemoaning the weirdness of the coasts, we should complain about the unfair disadvantages that the imports have in the midwest!
You forgot to mention ugly, I mean really really ugly, I mean its a "what were they thinking when they designed that?" ugly.
I think the Xb is an awful lot cuter than the Aztec.
I got a point!
Lets see that makes Snakeweasel 1, everyone else 345,157,562,746.
I am on a comeback!!!!!!!!
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Looks MUCH better than the current xB which was designed in 1999 in japan.
And still the xB is selling better than many more domestic vehicles! The xB is basically the "perfect" car for a young and old driver. Toyota got that one right. Same goes for the tC!
Cadillac needs a lambda to replace the SRX crossover and that pitiful excuse for a third row seat!! Its a mat and a backboard with a mini pillow on the floor!!
-Cj
Thats like saying Frankenstien is better looking than the Blob.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
-Cj
you have my e-mail (it's not private) and I will be gladly to answer it for you.
Rocky