Is Cadillac's Image Dying and Does Anyone Care?

autoboy16

thats the problem. Gm dosen't have any RWD platforms or great AWD systems.... unless the design the chassis backward. The worlds wirst Rear engine front drive layout...lol

FWD isn't that bad! Have you driven an acura TSX? Its underpowered, its FWD, and it costs as much as a v6 accord but yet acura moved out 63k units! If GM markets it correctly and prices it like the TSX, gm can have a winner!

Don't think of the BLS as being a 3series fighter but rather a acura TSX, volvo s40, lincoln MKZ fighter! All said vehicles are doing well are priced competitivly. The S40 starts at 24*** and an awd T5 goes for 27***! Gm can do it!

This is coming from a Honda fan and a TSX addict! The TSx may be FWD but its a great handling car! Who says GM can't do it with the BLS/9-3? The 9-3s downside is its pitiful mpg something GM addressed with the diesel in the BLS.

-Cj :shades:

Mr_Shiftright

I'll tell you an interesting story...totally anecdotal...no claims to it being "proof" of anything.

A friend of mine recently got kind of disgusted with his out of warranty BMW and the repair costs. He's not really a "car guy" and he's quite well to do, and he and family own a mix of cars, including a Chevy pickup.

So we talked about alternatives. I mentioned Lexus and he nodded and said yes, he heard they don't drive quite as well as his big Bimmer, but that's a possibility.

Then I mentioned Cadillac and he holds up his hand and says "No, I won't consider that".

Of course I didn't press it, but one wonders...where does THAT level of sales-resistance come from?

I felt certain that pushing a JD Powers Initial Quality Survey at him was NOT going to change his mind!

autoboy16

The solstice's problem wasn't the interior as much as it is the COMPLICATED TIME-CONSUMING top. The Saturn Sky's interior is MUCH better than the solstice (IMO the exterior is too) but the top and minimal trunk space is what diverts buyers. The miata with a power hardtop down has equal space and weighs less than a regular solstice/sky. That comparison is here.

Yet the solstice outsold the miata, gm did something right! but its a matter of what...
-Cj :confuse:

Mr_Shiftright

Is that right? Solstice outsold Miata? Gee, how weird. I have never even SEEN a Solstice in San Francisco I don't think. Where do they sell I wonder?

I'm sure it's different in Detroit :P

sls002

Consumers Reports does not send out surveys. If you are a subscriber to Consumer Reports they expect you to send in information annually. A test on one vehicle is not meaningful. Some cars will have one problem and other cars will have another, or none. To determine problems, a meanful sample of the whole production is needed. At least a few hundred different cars, or possibly a few thousand.

I have gotten a survey from J. D. Powers. They follow up their initial request to fill out the survey to try to get as many back as possible.

Car & Driver does not pretend to evaluate reliability.

Mr_Shiftright

You CAN'T predict reliability unless you drive a fleet of cars a long distance. Anything else is just guessing.

If say, 6 car magazines did 6 longterm tests on 6 different Cadillac models, and all had problems, that would be fairly damning evidence of a major problem with the product. But what happens to Al in his first 90 days is meaningless as a predicter of anything except that they screwed it together okay at the factory.

sls002

J. D. Powers does they quality studies for the industry. As a result of the surveys, the automakers have improved quality I think. Even the worst cars on the list continue to sell, for whatever reason.

sls002

J. D. Power also does a long term dependability survey. This is on three year old vehicles. Generally speaking, the 90 day list is very similar to the 36 month list. Lexus is on top in both cases. Cadillac and Buick are near the top.

autoboy16

i've seen 12 at the local dealership, 5solstices (Solstii?) on the road and 3 skys on the road. Oh there was one parked under a highway overpass... The owner was trying to put the top up in the rain. If looks could kill...

-Cj

sls002

After Chrysler and Mercedes became the same company, there was an editorial cartoon showing a Chrysler alongside a Mercedes at a stop light. The driver of the Chrysler says something to the effect that they are both made by the same company, and are equals. The Mercedes driver says to his wife (presumably) that they will get a Lexus.

62vetteefp

Solstice is now just getting up to production to meet the market needs. It has been very restricted.

For 2006, they sold 18,362 and Miata sold 15,873. This does not include the Sky. Just think if Californians would consider a domestic what the sales would have been!

autoboy16

How could i forget the interior!? Its odd how 9-3 pictures are harder to find than BLS pictures...




-Cj

british_rover

This will be long, so I apologize in advance. I'll try not to post any more, and leave Britishrover to say in 3 words what I take 30 to say.


I will take that compliment.

sls002

2006 dependability (2003 models):
http://www.jdpower.com/corporate/news/releases/pressrelease.asp?ID=2006133
2003 initial quality:
http://www.jdpower.com/corporate/news/releases/pressrelease.asp?ID=2003028

british_rover

We are dead last in both of those survey's but I think a lot of that is just a demanding customer base.

Part of it is the pathetic excuse for a vehicle the Freelander is and that will continue showing up on the JD Powers VDS till 2008 or so. :sick:

We sell all of the cars we can get our hands on and for the most part do it without big rebates/marketing support or incentivized leasing. That is something most other makes can't do. We were also the only SUV brand, excluding hummer but that is just because the H3 was not out for all of 2005, to have a sales increase over last year.

Just goes to show that reliablity is not everything. It is how you treat people when they have a problem and how the rest of the car owning experience is. We excel at the driving/owning experience and are getting better at handling customer problems.

sls002

Hummer was decidedly last on the initial study, but improved for the long term, but is still near the bottom.

british_rover

I mean the latest IQS...

Mr_Shiftright

The weird thing about JD Power is that I believe if BMW had the worst rating in the entire industry, right at the bottom, it wouldn't affect their sales as long as the product still pleased the buyers in other ways.

Why? Because 1.5 problems per 100 vehicles is hardly noticeable from .91 problems per vehicle. The increments are too fine to matter.

I mean, if you put a Ferrari to the JD Power test it would fail, completely, utterly, totally. It would be like 10 problems per 100 vehicles. Yet the company sells every car they make, usually in ADVANCE!!

Why? Because JD Power doesn't measure the driving experience or the prestige or the environment within the car.

Now as for Ferrari, THAT is "brand equity" to the max!

I guess the only company that exceeds Ferrari in brand equity is Harley Davidson, because owners sometimes tattoo the brand name on their arms.

RE: Solstice --- west coasters won't buy it because a) they are scared to death it will fall apart and b) it has no status or prestige.

I mean, resistance to domestics is pretty strong out here....you can even see it in the match.com ads: "Please, no Corvette drivers" (cross my heart I've seen that more than once---LOL!)

sls002

Oh. I just looked over the last few years of the dependability study. Land Rover has been near the bottom the whole time. Lexus has been at the top. Buick and Cadillac have been near the top.

On the initial quality survey, Land Rover has 204 problems per hundred vehicles, while the industry average is 124. What this means is that Land Rover has about 60% more problems than average while Lexus has about half the problems that Land Rover has.

sls002

Yes and if Cadillac were right at the top, with say half the problems that Lexus has, they still would not sell any more cars, and people would still talk about the problems with the 8-6-4 and the 4100.

What the J. D. Power survey shows is that Cadillac's are not bad cars, and probably are as good in dependability as Lexus/Toyota.

Mr_Shiftright

I don't believe they are as good as a Lexus. I don't think GM is capable of making a car as good as a Lexus.

But they ARE capable of making a better car and that's all they need to do.

I guess I may have told the story of Harley Davidson...they hired a big-time marketing consulting firm when they were struggling near death in the 1980s. They asked: "How can we make a motorcycle as good as the Japanese"?

And the conclusion was: You can't.

But, said the experts, you can make a BETTER motorcycle and you CAN market it BETTER.

And that's what they did, and they became a great success once again, sales-wise.

If Cadillac could just sell lots of cars and regain prestige through marketing, WHO CARES if it's the "best" or not?

It's not a realistic goal and who needs it anyway? Harley proved you don't.

autoboy16

Cadillac can be better. Ithey wont be the standard with the bad MPG. A 255hp cts goes 3**miles highway vs the es350 getting 505on the highway ang with 27* hp

-Cj

sls002

I did say as reliable, not as good as (whatever that might mean). Even if GM made Cadillac as good as the current Lexus, Toyota would simply turn around and make Lexus better. My Seville has only had one problem in the 4 years that I have owned it. I expect the water pump to need repairs in the near future, but this is to be expected.

Cadillac could be better than it is. They should not expect to price it at the top of the market either. I think that GM is making all of its vehicles better, slowly bit by bit.

sls002

I very much doubt that anything gets 505 MPG on the highway.

snakeweasel

you can even see it in the match.com ads: "Please, no Corvette drivers" (cross my heart I've seen that more than once---LOL!)

Does Mrs. Shiftright know you look at those ads?

Why? Because 1.5 problems per 100 vehicles is hardly noticeable from .91 problems per vehicle. The increments are too fine to matter.

Thats true, both are basically 1 problem or so per car which really isn't a whole lot. Thats why I hold that just about every car is highly reliable. I mean most of the cars are within .5 problems per car.

snakeweasel

I very much doubt that anything gets 505 MPG on the highway.

This will



And so will this

british_rover

Yeah but the emissions are horribly.... :P

louiswei

I think he meant miles, not MPG

trimaster

Lexus certainly had price on its side. Bimmers and especially M-Bs prices were becoming psychotic. I remember seeing a 1997 E-Class that had an MSRP of over $75K! Sheesh! I could've got an S-Class for less than that 7 years prior. The bloated S-Class was going for over six figures by then! I feel bad for anybody that bought one of those 1992-era S-Classes new. The only guys I see driving them today are Russian mobsters in NE Philly - a very bad image.

Yep, the stars were perfectly aligned for Lexus at that time. I doubt we ever see anythin like that again. I see all types driving the older Benzes. It's interesting how different areas can view cars.

trimaster

Ok, let me tell you this. MY EXPERIENCE with American cars has NOT been good. I've had two, and that was enough. And the moment I switched to Honda and Toyota I didn't have any of the ridiculous problems that I HAD experienced with the domestic junk I had unfortunately purchased. I might as well had thrown my money down the toilet.

Unforunately, I've heard this before. This is what GM (& other American auto makers) must overcome. The negative public perception is strong & deep. I'm sure they know. Can they do it? Can they win over the public? I think they can as a new generation comes up.

On a side note, I've been noticing more Cadillac's on the road since I started reading this thread. That's a good sign for Caddy!

trimaster

If Cadillac could just sell lots of cars and regain prestige through marketing, WHO CARES if it's the "best" or not?

Very true. & what is "best" anyway? What's "best" to one person may mean absolutely nothing to the next person. But reliabiltiy is a very good step in the right direction.

rockylee

Well then Dan, you will remember Rex Hays in Allegan now known as Grand Allegan. I'm friends with the sales manger there. I actually lived in Pullman, and is where my father lives still to this day and was the last place I lived before moving to Texas. You might also remember my cousin shop in Allegan called "Warnings Service Center"
I bought my first Cadillac a 1988' Eldorado from my cousin's Ralph, and Ryan, since they had a used car lot.

I lived in Wayland for a couple of years when I was a child but moved to Wyoming Mi and went to Wyoming Park since dad wanted to get closer to General Motors. I however graduated H.S. not Junior High :P at Fennville. I also knew a couple of people from Hopkins because I went to Allegan Vo-Tech for auto mechanics school and then took up welding. So there is a slim chance you and I have crossed paths and never knew it or know some of the same people. Perhaps we will have to drop each other a e-mail to talk more about it.

Back on topic:

If those Imports are so superior in the engineering department then please explain to me why they are engineered so unreliable ???? A Lexus LS might be credible as the best engineered car because not only is it made with high quality materials but it always ranks among the top in reliability. The others you mention with the exception of Honda, I'd question their engineerong because anyone can use high quality materials but if it's put togeather wrong or if the high quality materials are only "skin deep" then explain to me why that's so much better than domestic car like a Cadillac. ????

Rocky

rockylee

british, I never really thought of you as a "nut job" :P

BOOM

Rocky

imidazol97

>The basic problem with Consumers Reports is that they survey what their subscribers own

The CR only uses some subscribers' results.

They only get info from those subscribers who choose to respond, whether they are giving angry exaggerated complaints because they don't like the product or they cover up info about flaws in their product or the dealership was successful in doing recall work without letting the customer know.

Some people don't respond and CR does nothing about following up.

The subscriber group of CR is not typical of owners sample of all types of cars available here. The group of subscribers demographics are never publicized. But Rockeylee hit it on the head in earlier post.

The survey itself from CR is "strange." But that leaves it to the "EDITORS" to adjust what you really meant to say to their own ends.

They have a convenience sample. It's the same as if you stood at the door of your local supermarket on a Saturday morning and asks those coming in whether there should be a new YMCA built in the neighborhood. Some will ignore you, some will answers, some will give truthful answers, and some will slant their answer intentionally or unintentionally.

JD Powers follows up in various ways when surveys are not returned. They have questions that are properly couched and that determine the truth.

rockylee

So it's all about keeping up with the Jones. No need to go test drive a domestic and see for yourself. :confuse:

Rocky

imidazol97

>Also, FWIW, I've never received a survey from either

Do you subscribe to CR? If not you won't receive their survey. Indeed I subscribed three different years and didn't get a survey.

rockylee

Yeah? And I could literally tear apart any Nissan interior with my bare hands, especially that of the "tough" Titan.

ROTFFLMAO That one brought tears to my eyes

Rocky

rockylee

The basic problem with Consumers Reports is that they survey what their subscribers own. J. D. Powers surveys a sampling of all the owners of each make to get a comparable sample of every make.

That is exactly it and is why people like Snake, and I have a problem with CR

Rocky

rockylee

Okay, perhaps one day I will get to see it.

Rocky

rockylee

To fine GM mahines. I'm very confident the next generation Saabs will impress all of us. The current generation still amazes me with their safety

Rocky

rockylee

Not a bad idea and I do expect that's what we will see.

Rocky

imidazol97

>Yeah but the emissions are horribly....

Not if you have someone scoop them up or do the Charleston where they wear diaper bags...

imidazol97

I had three different cars on which I was followed by JD Powers up to one year IIRC.

rockylee

I think this says quite a lot in itself, and needs no further comment. ( I just can't stop giggling, hey. YOU can take it seriously, if you choose).

Well he does now. He's owned Ferrari's, Mercedes, Porsche's, Vette's, etc, etc, but now he drives a Cadillac STS-V and I believe he bought a XLR-V, as grandma said it was a new Cadillac Convertible.

I think some of my family made him feel kinda bad but he always liked performance cars.

lokki, are you a back jumper also ? :P You came out of no where and took the boots to me.

I admit C&D is doing a better job of being unbiased. Boy they weren't in the past though.

I also find it sad that your 70 year old mom has swallowed the hook

Rocky

louiswei

If our own experience is so darn good why should we switch? Same goes for any other Toyota/Honda owners. I'll give you 2 examples:

1. When dad was getting a new SUV during summer 05' (employee discount remember?) he has his eyes dead set on the 4Runner. I told him to check out few others like Honda Pilot and GMC Envoy. But guess what? Apparently he was so happy with his Toyota Camry (and the dealership) he wouldn't even bother. He did went to see the RX330 (only because it's built by Toyota) but dislike the size so he ended up with a fully loaded 4Runner Limited V6.

2. A family friend was getting a replacement for her Camry last year, mom volunteered me to help her out since I am the car guy. She told me she is interested in either the Avalon or Nissan's Murano so we went to test drive them both. After the Murano, she said she didn't like the way it drives so it was off the list. On our way from Nissan to Toyota I suggested her to try the TSX since it's around the same price range as Avalon but much more fun and toys. After the test drive she said she likes it but still want to try the Avalon. Long story short, she bought the Avalon on that same day with a price of $30 over invoice. I asked her why Avalon over the TSX and her answer was: It's quieter and I like Toyota better.

The reason for these 2 examples is that Toyota's success is built on
1. good reputation
2. consistently putting out good products
They receive 1 because of 2 and 1 will bring them new customer and 2 will bring back old customers.

If GM didn't shoot itself in the foot back in the 70'-80'-90' by putting out crappy products do you really honestly think that Toyota/Honda/Nissan will be able to enjoy the success they have today? I said this over and over and I will say it again: I can see that GM is moving in the right direction with recent sedan entries. However, don't expect their reputation to be restored overnight. It took a long time for the market to catch up onto their horrible products and it's only fair that the market will take a while to catch up onto their good ones (if those are really good ones).

rockylee

british,

I'll be the first to admit I like the LR-2, but even I was surprised the car wasn't more upscale in material quality. I assume in typical Ranger Rover fashion they will slap a high MSRP on em' and they will sell like hot cakes because of the prestige the brand has.

Soon as T.O. was caught driving in his orange RRS, everybody wanted one.

Rocky

ducksinarow

Cadillac is never be the Standard, the markets are too different. They are spending lots of $ to redo the interior of the STS to sell it in China. If they were the standard why resign, what you just launched?
They missed tagging BMW right out of the box with the CTS, not enough engine, too much noise...nice Plastic....
BMW, AUDI and VW are well established to the new rich in China, Cadillac is a "johny come late player" I might be wrong but pick up and SUVs( largeones)are not a standar for any where but the good ole USA...

rockylee

I mean, resistance to domestics is pretty strong out here....you can even see it in the match.com ads: "Please, no Corvette drivers" (cross my heart I've seen that more than once---LOL!)

Shifty, I think you are blowing some white smoke out your tailpipe. :P

Rocky

mediapusher

Excuse me Rocky, but keeping up with the Jones has nothing to do with it. I've always been the kind of person who beats to the tune of his own drum, so you couldn't be more of base with your "keeping up with the Jones" analogy. Toyotas and Hondas have never had a "keeping up with the Jones" aura anyway. So I don't know what you're talking about.

I've test driven domestics and I still think they're pitiful. You probably think I haven't driven the newer models. Well, hmm, let's see, last year I rented a 2006 Pontiac G6. The shift mechanism felt like it was made by Mattel. The car was too heavy giving it excessive body lean on turns. The flimsy trunk axles didn't look like they would last 6 months if that. There were gaps and uneven ripples along the seams along the driver side window sill (fit and finish) For a small car, the fuel mileage rating was horrible. The wide roof pillars impeded rear veiw, etc.

When it comes to refinement, G.M. doesn't have it. As far as being the standard of the world, they must learn what refinement is. Cause in the end it doesn't matter what nameplate of theirs becomes the standard of the world (whatever that means), none of the nameplates are the standard of the world now. On a more positive note, I was impressed with the layout, and amber lighting of the instrument panel and the feel of the ergonomic seats, which gave good support like those of a BMW
................
above text in reply to:

So it's all about keeping up with the Jones. No need to go test drive a domestic and see for yourself.

Rocky

dhamilton

I think there's a difference between engineering, and reliability. For instance, I think the Germans suck at electronics. Way over engineered a lot of times. Way more complicated than it needs to be.

What they do excel in IMO, is driving dynamics, and innovation.

I wouldn't compare a Nav system in an Audi, to say a Lexus. The Lexus would be 10 times more intuitive, and reliable. But, I wouldn't want to drive the Lexus, near as much as the Audi.

That's engineering driving dynamics. They, and the Italians are masters at it, but, the Italians suck at engineering anything to last.