Is Cadillac's Image Dying and Does Anyone Care?

lemko

Fortunately, my Cadillac dealership has enough class not to even offer this junk. There is another dealership that trashes-up all its used inventory with this garbage - probably in an attempt to make its used inventory so repulsive that you just have to buy a new car.

sls002

To me the typical SUV looks like a station wagon, but with 4x4 is usually higher off the ground, as the SRX is. The Trailblazer and the SRX are similar in size.

sls002

You can't prevent people from doing whatever they want to the car once they buy it.

lemko

Yeah, but they can get that trash off the internet or from J.C. Whitney. The Cadillac dealer should not be involved. I doubt Honda dealers sell forty-foot wings, grapefruit shooter exhaust tips, and tacky ground effects kits for kids to trash-up their Civics.

anythngbutgm

lol. Thankfully, I think the market for that stuff has been withering away for a while... I don't think it will have the same lasting effect that the Landau roofs have. The F&F craze was a fad, the Carraige roof is a classic styling cue. I would expect there are people who like it or it would've withered away long ago.

bumpy

No, that stuff is over at the Scion dealer.

imidazol97

When I browsed the city Buick/(Pontiac) dealer's lot of Lucernes, I commented to the pesky salesman about some of them having vinyl roofs on them already. He corrected me that these are not vinyl roofs but are a material like tents are made out of--he didn't use that word but I can't recall his PC word. It looks like denim to me.

This is the dealer with the portholes, plastic chrome and plastic gold, and the vinyl roofs, and the plastic gold emblems on grills for PAves and leSabres for a long long time. He's never sold Cadillacs, but may have an assocation with the Caddy dealer cluster about 3 blocks away on another thoroughfare. I know he used the Chev used manager to assess a value the last time I stopped and priced for trade for a new one, so I think there's a financial connection.

nvbanker

I love the interior of my current FWD Seville STS. The new RWD car's interior seems somewhat downmarket from my ride. I don't want to give up one advantage, (nice interior) for another, (better drivetrain configuration). I want both!

Exactly how I feel, lemko - that's why I prefer the current DTS to all the rest of the Caddies, but, I don't like FWD much.....

sls002

I ventured out this afternoon and stopped at the Chevy-Caddy dealer to make sure that they are still looking for a program SRX. They are. I also asked to see the new 2007 SRX interior. Yes it does look better, and the dash is nicer, I guess. However, while the door panels do have some wood trim now, and the rest looks a bit nicer, the feel is still a firm to hard material. I am not sure that the overall feel is any better.

I also stopped at a library with back issues of Motor Trend to went back to late 1986. They had one with a test of the new Allante, plus a comparison test of the Corvette, Mercedes 560SL and some other car. Compared to our current 6 second standard for 0-60, the whole lot of them failed, but the Allante was quite slow, needing over 10 seconds. The Corvette and 560SL were a bit quicker than 7 seconds. The 89 Allante with the 4.5 liter V8 was under 8.5 seconds.
Not that anyone is really interested

autoboy16

I don't know if this has been brought up or not but I wonder why the BLS didn't come to the states? It could compete with Acuras [Somewhat] sporty and [somewhat] luxurious Tsx! Also the Audi A4, Volvo s40/60, Lexus Is250, Bmw 328i, M-B C230/280/350, and Lincoln Mkz.

Just another chance for cadillac to miss out on sales and high position! BIG MISTAKE IMO! BRING DIESELS Cadillac!
-Cj :confuse:

merc1

I would agree with that hierarchy of luxury convertibles because the 6 series is just kind of too fugly.

Opps I forgot about the 6-Series. I'd have to take a 650i over a XLR despite the awful rear end. Maybe in Black I guess.

M

merc1

Do you really dislike the competition so much as to come up with stuff like that? The GL does not look like a hearse. If it does so do most other SUVs on the market. The R-Class yes, it can look like a hearse, especially in Black. The GL? Heck naw. I know you depend on Land Rover products for your well being, but the hearse assertion about the GL is ridiculous.

M

merc1

The 1987 Allante was rated 16 city, 24 hwy; the 560 SL was rate 14 city, 17 hwy, a fuel pig.

Considering it made 4-cylinder hp it should have had better fuel economy.

M

autoboy16

Its roots with the 93 are hardly noticible! Only the Steering wheel and C pillar reflect 9-3.

rockylee

DETROIT — Cadillac rolled out the BLS Sport this week, a tweaked version of the GM luxury brand's European sedan set to go on sale overseas this month.

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=119073

Rocky

bigo08

I think Cadillac didn't bring the BLS to the states for a few reasons 1. It's FWD, and i believe Cadillac wants to go all RWD here in the states. 2. It already has the CTS here as its entry-level car and 3. IMO Americans prefer bigger cars.

rockylee

agree........

Rocky

british_rover

That and GM already has enough 9-3 derived vehicles in the US they don't need another one.

RE the 6 Series you didn't forget it you just mentaly blocked it from your mind because of its fuglyniess. If you actually buy one you have to leave the top down at all times because with the top down it is at least liveable.

RE: the GL450 Hearse. A client of mine actually told me it looked like a hearse after they drove it and I agreed. I hadn't really thought about it before then but after he pointed it out I did.

merc1

RE the 6 Series you didn't forget it you just mentaly blocked it from your mind because of its fuglyniess. If you actually buy one you have to leave the top down at all times because with the top down it is at least liveable.

That could be or I'm not used to BMW having an entry in that segment.

Of course I disagree with the GL450 looking like a hearse. Customer isn't always right.

M

robbieg

That interior, while not perfect, is much better than the current CTS. Also, the Acura did pretty well with the TSX considering it is a "smaller" car. I think Cadillac is missing out on younger single affluent buyers who don't want or need a car as big as a CTS. Not too mention cheaper. Maybe Cadillac doesn't want to have a car priced so far below 30,000? My guess is that a stripped down version would have to be priced at around 24 and a typically equipped model would go for 26,000 in order to be under the CTS, and those prices may be even too high.

62vetteefp

I think Cadillac needs a smaller 3 series car out there(RWD/AWD). It must bring in the same age/demographic group as those who aspire to the 3 series and others. It needs a "cool" demeaner to do that. It will take quite a car to bring those customers over. GM can do it. I look at the folks who drive Escalades and know it can be done.

Price wise they cannot go too low. Let the CTS start a little closer to what they actually equip them at (upper $30's), well featured and drop the 2.8. The "BLS" would take the entry level. Just under $30k well underprices a 3 series($35k and up). Make sure it is well equipped (2,8L) at that price point and let it max out for a "normal" optioned vehicle at $33K.

sls002

The Allante's horsepower per liter (170/4.1=41.5) was actually better than the 560SL (227/5.6=40.5). The Corvette, which actually outperformed the SL, was rated 16 city, 25 hwy.

sls002

The BLS interior is very similar to the 2007 SRX (or should I say the SRX interior is simialy to the BLS).

I think that the next generation BLS may come to the US.

autoboy16

The BLS uses the 2.8 to muster up 255hp. Thats where the old 330i was. The BLS should use engines to make:

225hp hence 328i, Is250, C230, Ect.

255is good but not enough. The number to reach is 300hp so maybe the 3.6 can handle it.

Price the 225hp one at $26,*** and the 300hp one at $33,*** and thats makes it a value! Something cadillac could use in the US..

The Next CTS may start at the TL's price and thats $36k but that not something people want to pay for an "Entry Level" sedan.

Now the whole FWD issue... I guess Fwd is ok. Look at the A4! Make AWD and option and you've got a deal/Steal! Acura's doing it!

Cadillac shouldn't wait to bring it! Bring it now since the 9-3 is an 05 model, it may not get redesigned until 2010. Since they have them in LHD (Left Hand Drive), they should bring it NOW or summer 07!

-Cj :P

aldw

A RWD BLS replacement similar to the Torana concept may be in the works as long as Caddy managers can get it through the product approval process.

sls002

GMinsideNews, not a great source of information, but more rumors, says that the BLS, on the epsilon II platform, would arrive for the 2010 model year. They also say that the CTS wagon will be in production then, and the SRX will be out of production. The SRX might be replaced with a lambda platform model.

Mr_Shiftright

HP per liter comparisons really isn't playing fair...horsepower can't go up proportional to displacement on NA engines...science doesn't work that way. So what I mean is that the SL's hp per liter ratio is probably more efficient than the Allante's, given the effect of pumping losses, etc. which larger displacement imposes on engine designers.

gsemike

The BLS definately offers a nice smoothed out interpretation of the art & science look. If positioned correctly and priced right to fight the TSX, I think that it could be a nice addition to the stable.

I can't find a side shot. How obvious is the Saab DNA?

sls002

Would comparing the torque per liter be fair? The Allante had 235 lb-ft of torque at 3200 RPMs; the SL's was 279 lb-ft at 3250. I suppose that this is also bad...

Anyway, the Allante's engine was more fuel efficient, but certainly had less performance. For 1987, was the performance fairly good? Today's expectation are certainly much different. Compared to the Oldsmobile diesels of the late 70's and early 80's, the 1987 Allante's performance was quite good. Compared to the Corvette, which had similar fuel consumption, the Allante was a dog.

The current two seaters from GM (XLR and Corvette) are rated at 17 city, 27 hwy. Mercedes Benz 2 seaters are worse, unless you consider the 6 cylinder models.

plekto

Another option would be to take the 2.8 engine and just drop huge amounts of bloat and weight. 255HP but only 2800 lbs - that's a several hundred pound advantage on the 3 series, and more than enough to toast the IS350 as well.(lees mass, significantly less time to get it moving and turning)

What we are seeing lately is a repeat of what we saw in the 50s and 60s. The cars are getting more power and also getting bigger at the same time. But the problem is that a 4000lb Lexus (in a few years, given the way they are heading) won't be any different than the old 60s musclecars were - good in a straight line and not much else.

2006 IS350 - 3527lbs (dry weight)
2005 IS300 - 3255lbs

2006 330i - 3417lbs
2000 328i - 3197lbs
1990 325i - 2854lbs
In 15 or so years, the thing has grown by almost 600 lbs.

More power - more weight as well - the trend is disturbing to those of us who want performance. But this is where GM could make up ground. Less power but.. lookie here... 2800lbs!
(Btw - the Altima is almost exactly 3000lbs, so it isn't impossible to make a 4 door car without the bloat.)

british_rover

That would be a good idea but I don't see GM doing it.

Jag has done something similar by going to aluminium for the XJ and XK and it has saved about 300 or so pounds per car but hasn't seemed to help their sales much.

plekto

Consider the RX-8. With stickshift, it is *just* under 3000lbs by a hair(like 2997 or something). It's also a very fast car. It's not made to compete with a 350Z, but auto magazines love to do this and yet it still does about 85% as well.

The reason is simple - it weighs a lot less. And it handles, quite honestly, better than the IS350 or most of the sports sedans as a result.

http://www.edmunds.com/used/1991/mazda/rx7/3063/specs.html
Same deal here - 3000lbs and 200hp.

Cadillac or anyone for that matter - who can stuff 250hp in a 2800-3000lb car will instantly have a winner.

sls002

The weight problem is in large part due to the current trend in making the bodies "stiff".

bumpy

Cadillac or anyone for that matter - who can stuff 250hp in a 2800-3000lb car will instantly have a winner.

Cadillac definitely needs a light RWD 4-door if they're going to make any headway at all in Europe; the CTS is huge by their standards. Heck, I might even consider a Cadillac if they made one like that, but I've pretty much decided to just wait until 2014 and pick up a nice R32 Skyline.

robbieg

I think Cadillac has to price itself significantly less than both BMW and Lexus. If Cadillac wants a winner the should price the BLS with automatic, leather and a moonroof a little less than 27,000.

Anyone have any idea what the average price of all CTS sold?

gsemike

The last thing that GM is going to do is gain competitve advantage by making a lighter car. If anything, their cars are always heavier. A Solstice is about 500 pounds heavier than an MX-5 and roadsters are all about being tossable.

For whatever reason, GM is incapable of making a light car. In the new C&D midsize comparo, the Aura is the heaviest in the field by about 200 pounds yet has the smallest backseat and middle of the field front seat.

sls002

The Solstice has a stiffer body than the MX-5. Still, it is heavier than it needs to be.

autoboy16

Not very. Only the pillars, steering wheel, shift knob snd gate, and some interior designs. Google Cadillac Bls.

-Cj

62vetteefp

The weight problem is in large part due to the current trend in making the bodies "stiff".

AND adding all kinds of equipment. Folks are buying much more features than they used to and their is a lot more safety stuff.

62vetteefp

In looking at the features and assuming(which may be incorrect) that most buy the 3.6 it would MSRP at about $38k or so. There are other features/packages I did not include.

3.6L, sunroof, Lux packg ( 3.6L V6 Luxury Package, includes (A45) Memory Package, (DD7) inside rearview auto-dimming mirror with compass display, (AH8) 8-way power front passenger seat adjuster, (AL2) 2-way power driver and front passenger lumbar control, (KA1) driver and front passenger heated seats, (UG1) Universal Home Remote (UA6) theft-deterrent alarm system, (QWJ) P225/55R16 H-rated, all-season, blackwall tires and (PX0) 16" (40.6 cm) bright machined-finish aluminum wheels)

gsemike

I don't see too much of the 9-3 here:



I say bring it here unless it would be an issue with having their entry level car be their best looking. With the scarcity of Saabs, who would even notice if it was a twin?

rockylee

The BLS is a nice smallish looking car. It's missing a couple of turbo's to make it a great BMW 1-series competitor.

Rocky

62vetteefp

Rocky, you mean 3 series don't you? I will admit I do not know what constitutes a 1 series except tiny.

fintail

I see it in the greenhouse. Pretty obvious to my eyes, but I look at the greenhouse as one of the key elements of a design, others might not.

rockylee

62,

The BLS to the best of my knowledge (which might not mean much) :P is about the same size as a BMW 1 series which is said to be about the same size as the old E36 BMW 3 series. But like I said in the past what do I know about European cars ?

Rocky

mediapusher

GM's car manufacturing sector in the U.S.A. doesn't have a clue and has their head so far in the sand that they're blind by now. Cadillac was never the standard of the world; it was merely fashionable and en-vogue at a time when everyone seemed to buy a car with their genitals and nothing else. This corporation is so huge, I don't think they really care what happens to their entity in the United States, based on the successes they have elsewhere in the world.

GM could make Cadillac the "standard of the world" (whatever that means), but it is very doubtful that they ever will make any of their cars the "standard of the world" based on the beyond embarrassing blunders and releases that I have seen in the last 29-30 years or so (when GM first faced serious foreign competition).

If planned obselescence remains their way of doing business, then no, NONE of their cars will ever be the standard. People are tired of being ripped off. This is something that they know, but don't want to ackowledge; just like an old person set in their ways - GM refuses to change and listen to what their customers want. How is it that Toyota can introduce the Scion line and make it an instant success while GM (the largest vehicle company in the world) sits on the sidelines scratchin' their butt.

The only standard of the word that GM has right now is the Cadillac CTS. This is a popular vehicle that is still plagued with problems consumers have been complaining about in regards to GM for decades; and that is incredibly cheap plastics in the interior, stupid design accouterments (e.g. shoulder seat belt anchor attached to seats) and at its price point meets the competition in terms of performance but not reliability. This is the only car I would buy if I were to buy a GM car, out of all the vehicles they make, this is the only one that stands out.

Another thing is, I have heard that GM dealerships treat their customers like manure and appear as if they are some hustler on the street trying to sell you stolen watches. I've also heard that getting repairs done under warranty is a nightmare for GM consumers. Salesmen at Toyota and Honda dealers don't have to sell their cars, cause their cars sell themselves......

mediapusher

Autoboy the Cadillac BLS (automobile pictured above that is not sold in the U.S.A.) only shares the Saab engine and some parts of the SAAB interior. The Cadillac CTS exterior you see for the Swedish version as we know it is meant to be. The Swedes like the exterior design, and who wouldn't? Let's face it, it's a very smart, attractive looking exterior design. I do see slight exterior differences compared to the U.S.A version, however. (take a look at the tail lights)

The only reason this car has a Swede engine over there is because it probably makes a lot more sense economically, and it clears any emissions obstacles or other hassles that GM may have otherwise faced if they wanted to use their engines in the Swede version

rockylee

mediapusher,

Glad you are so upbeat about GM's future. :surprise:

Rocky

mediapusher

Rocky, it's not about being upbeat or downbeat, it's a matter of stating facts and relaying my observations. It's been 30 years or more since they were faced with formidable competition and I've seen very little change if any from this company's United States sector.

Why don't they just stick to making trucks and stop embarrassing us? They seem to know how to make trucks pretty well.

mediapusher

Come to think of it, how vague, silly, and subjective is this question anyway? The "standard of the world" in one country is very different in another, based on different laws, economics, cultures and tastes.

I saw tons of Holdens in Australia when I visited last year. The Holdens that GM tried to sell here (new fangled Pontiac GTOs) never got off the showroom floor.

They sell many Nissan Cedrics in Japan. How many do you see here??

The Buick Lacrosse sells very well in China. How many do you see running around the streets of U.S.A.? This may not be a fair comparison, however, because the Chinese Buick Lacrosse is much nicer than what G.M. is willing to release in the United States, so is their Buick Royaum, which hasn't been released in any format, here in the U.S.A.

Also it's important to mention that General Motors has extreme difficulty making a small car that is profitable in the United States. The Chinese Buicks I mentioned earlier that sell well in China are both large cars.