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Full-size pickup sales - F-150 best selling truck, but for how much longer?



  • sknabtsknabt Member Posts: 14
    That's great, b2900, post me a video of a Tundra crossing the line .51 seconds faster than the next faster competition. Did you buy a Tundra to stop light race with other pickups? If that's what's important to you then buy the Tundra and have a ball.

    People who care about safety would pick the Sierra/Silverado over the Tundra. Personally, my 2nd set of wheels is a Honda S2000 so obviously safety isn't a big concern.

    My Sierra won't be a work truck nor a hauler. I haven't compared the stats down the line in load and hauling for both vehicles. If one has an edge then that may sway some folks.

    I'm looking for more versatility than my beater trade-in SUV. I also need comfortable, highly adjustable seating. That's where the Tundra starts dropping the ball. And while cheap knobs and cheap plastics don't have any practical effect functionally, who wants to pay top dollar for a vehicle with a sub-par interior? Heck, it's why people have been fleeing domestic brands for years.

    You sound like my Toyota salesman. Pay more up front because the GM depreciates faster. Yet, he had me comparing an '07 Tundra to an '08 Sierra. I was already eating an extra year's worth with the Tundra because the '08s cost too darn much. But, to be frank, that's only a persuasive argument for folks who frequently trade in. I keep a vehicle 10 or more years after they're all used up. The Isuzu Trooper I'm trading in is limping so bad I'm nervous it won't make it to the dealer when I trade it in.

    Obviously, there's no 1 shoe fits all answer to car buying. For example, the GMC dealers in my city are far better than the Toyota dealers. But I'm sure others have the exact opposite experience.

    But I don't see a single solitary area where a GMC Sierra SLT isn't going toe-to-toe with a Tundra Limited. One would assume Toyota's legendary quality would make the choice easy but they've dropped the ball on this one. In a 4x4 configuration, Consumer Reports rates the Toyota lower than the GMs. I didn't compare the work truck interiors but the top-of-the-line interior of the Sierra far surpasses the lackluster Tundra Limited's. A final disadvantage is the Tundra wants the buyer to pay a premium price in most configurations.

    I see a lot of the new Tundras on the road. Their sales are up better than 50%. So super-sizing the Tundra is a marketing success but I feel Tundra is an example of Toyota riding their reputation. I wonder how many Tundra buyers even looked at/researched a GM, Ford, or Dodge? I bet many just assumed they're crap and paid whatever Toyota asked for.
  • mule4mule4 Member Posts: 36
    I bought a 2007 tunder off road 4- wheel drive sr5 loaded less leather.$34500 cash. I am pleased with it. Only had torc conveter problem I got burnt on 1 new chev truck & 1 new cadillac & will never buy another.The only thing that was good about Gm.was i made enough buying & selling their co. stock when they were negotiating their contract to pay half of the cost of the tundra.Now their stock is no good.
  • b2900b2900 Member Posts: 20
    Nope I did not purchase my Tundra as a result of the attached videos from the YouTube video, Frankly I never seen them till after my purchase. Sknabt I use to own North American made vehicles and frankly that’s why I now own Toyota. I refuse to knock the Big Three I wish only to share my personal experience.
    What is important to me is safety, 4 star Toyota to a 5 star G.M. should be considered without question However most accidents are a direct result of not being able to stop fast enough. The difference between the G.M. and the Tundra could be the difference between life and death Be either truck empty or loaded.
    Sknabt sincerely I am not here to kick stones. I have stated that before. I do trade my trucks every three years so resale is very crucial to me my budget and the money I do not have to put out. You have your preference and I mine. Personally I am glad this full size Tundra came out. I feel it looks tuff. It is ready for work. It has Toyota ingenuity along with Toyota quality. If my Tundra presents any major problems my feeling towards Toyota would be no different than my feelings toward the Big Three. Until then Toyota has earned my respect since 1997.
  • farmerrubefarmerrube Member Posts: 33
    Heard that driveshaft is bustin on them tundra ones, but what about them pumpkins? Any folk work that tunda in them fields yet? Once that factory beefs that driveshaft, is them pumpkins next part to bust? Good luck on this one now!
  • sknabtsknabt Member Posts: 14
    b2900, I certainly can understand people buying Japanese based upon reputation, particularly Honda and Toyota. In fact, reliability is pretty huge with me because I own for the long-term. Most cars are reliable for the first couple of years. It's year 5 and out that exposes the real dogs.

    However, someone like you who buys a Toyota then trades it in every 3 years shouldn't worry about quality. Sure, some people get lemons but it's the rare vehicle that isn't going to be pretty trouble free for 3 years. Plus, all carry warranties that long.

    That said, the Toyota only makes sense in a RWD configuration, at least the '07 I was looking at. The 4x4 Tundra is "worse than average" according to Consumer Reports. Maybe Toyota's 2 recalls fixed the problems. We won't know for a while.

    I can understand resale being important but only if the vehicles you are comparing cost roughly the same. My experience is an '08 Tundra Limited is thousands more than a comparable '08 GMC Sierra SLT (the Silverado is cheaper still). It becomes a time value of money calculation. Pay more now with money you could use or earn interest on or get more depreciated dollars (inflation) in the future. I didn't look at long-term trade-in values but I have a feeling most of the assumed Toyota payoff advantage is illusionary.

    I realize there's a lot of folks out there who will only buy Ford, Dodge, or Chevy trucks. I'm not brand loyal but I can understand it. Toyota's reputation is creating Toyota fans, too. I'll be the first to admit there's no prestige in owning a GMC. People assume they're crap. GM has trashed its reputation. People tell me I'm crazy all the time.

    While not brand loyal, the $3k GM credit makes me look there first. Frankly, I was amazed how good a job GM did with the Sierra (and the Silverado). The SLT interior blew me away. I was pretty much sold when people - the ones who said I was crazy - convinced me to look at the Tundra. I had researched the Tundra so knew of the quality problems but, because it was a 'legendary' Toyota, kept assuming it would be better built. Looking at one on the lot and test driving one convinced me otherwise.

    Admittedly, I didn't look at a Ford or Dodge. The GM credit was too big of an incentive. I did seriously look at the smaller Nissan Frontier (major disappointment in all areas) when I was flirting with smaller trucks. I'd be lying if, after owning Japanese going back to the early '80s, I wasn't nervous about owning a domestic brand. But for once I don't see an advantage in paying a huge premium for a Japanese brand, specifically Toyota.

    All full-size trucks are so good, IMHO, there's no reason to pay a huge premium for one over another. Take away the $3k credit, maybe I seriously ponder Nissan Titan or Ford F-150. Toyota, IMHO, is a poor value given the competition.
  • b2900b2900 Member Posts: 20
    Point taken and well composed. Sknabt a few post back you mentioned my Toyota sales rep. I have had the same one since 1997. A comment he made to me, when questioned the price of the Toyota I was considering (not $500.00 ) off list back in 1997 was "The first Toyota is the only expensive one" So far he has been totally correct
  • mschmalmschmal Member Posts: 1,757
    FIRST, Motor Trend only considers NEW OR REDESIGNED vehicles for the vehicle of the year awards. Accordingly, the Tundra was about the only full sized truck that qualified.

    There are a few build facts that you just cannot escape when comparing the Toyota to the Ford F-150 for instance.

    The F-150 uses a fully boxed frame from bumper to bumper with hydro forming under the engine and cab.

    Tundra uses "tripletec" this is hydro formed and boxed under the engine only, boxxed under the cab and open c-channel under the bed.

    Ford F-150 frame is much strong.

    Tundra uses cross beams in the frame that are riveted to the side rails.

    Ford F-150 uses cross beams that pass through the side rail and the are riveted on BOTH SIDES of the side rail.

    As a result the Ford F-150 frame is MUCH MUCH stronger.

    Ford has more trucks on the road than anyone else with over 250,000 miles on them.
  • obyoneobyone Member Posts: 7,841
    "FIRST, Motor Trend only considers NEW OR REDESIGNED vehicles for the vehicle of the year awards. Accordingly, the Tundra was about the only full sized truck that qualified. "

    While it is true that a new or redesigned vehicle is a requirement, the Tundra was redesigned for the model year 2007 and NOT 2008. So the question remains why was the Tundra the MT Truck of the Year for 2008 when it was introduced in 2007 as a 2007 model? :sick:
  • b2900b2900 Member Posts: 20
    I remember the Ford Taurus being the biggest selling car then came the Camry. This blog is exactly about Tundra doing the same in the future. I am sure you may be correct that Ford has a superior frame but I am confident that Tundra will perform just well. Ford’s record speaks for itself they have far more issues with quality then they care to admit. Having the distinct honor of highest recalled car in history the Ford Focus. With regards to Ford tucks having the highest number of truck with high miles on the road likely is correct as well but rest assured that is being challenged one Tundra at a time.Ford boast quality is job #1 Toyota simply build quality, its their way, not their job.
  • KCRamKCRam Mt. Arlington NJMember Posts: 3,516
    Wasn't in production yet. The Motor Trend "___ of the year" testing is done in the fall, and the stipulation is, the vehicle must be in retail production when the testing is done... otherwise it qualifies for the following year's competition.

    kcram - Pickups Host
  • b2900b2900 Member Posts: 20
    I can only assume that there were no new 2008 models by any other company. Or another assumption would be it and the Silverado was a tie last year and it would on;ly be given that the Tundra would be this year truck(I am sure that will cause a reponse for GM owners!) Anyways Merry Christmas to all and a healthy New Yaer!
  • obyoneobyone Member Posts: 7,841
    "Or another assumption would be it and the Silverado was a tie last year and it would on;ly be given that the Tundra would be this year truck"

    There may have been a response but I don't quite understand your previous statement. :surprise:
  • h20h20 Member Posts: 42
    Merry Christmas.
  • KCRamKCRam Mt. Arlington NJMember Posts: 3,516
    The Silverado/Sierra HD and Ford Super Duty were also in this year's TOY competition, as they did not begin production until after last year's contest was completed. Motor Trend always claims that trucks are scored against their direct competition, so the Tundra was rated against all the current half-tons, as opposed to the heavy pickups which were rated against each other and the Dodge Ram HD.

    The F-150 and Ram 1500 will both start production this coming summer, so both will be available for 2009 TOY honors.

    kcram - Pickups Host
  • obyoneobyone Member Posts: 7,841
    Autoblog.com describes it best in their article regarding the MT testing and award.


    Quote out of context, "Our money was on the F-450 for this award, as the truly super truck from Ford is rather peerless in the market. But we're not the editors of Motor Trend, and it's their award to give to whomever they choose. We're sure they're ready for the onslaught of armchair automotive journalism that's coming their way."

    Course we all have our opinions.
  • sknabtsknabt Member Posts: 14
    "While it is true that a new or redesigned vehicle is a requirement, the Tundra was redesigned for the model year 2007 and NOT 2008. So the question remains why was the Tundra the MT Truck of the Year for 2008 when it was introduced in 2007 as a 2007 model?"

    My understanding is the '07 Tundra wasn't ready in time for the '07 TOTY. The rumor is the Tundra was delayed to tweak its interior to better match GM's (keep working on that Toyota). I imagine that's why they held it over to '08 so it'd get a shot.

    Motor Trend ran a separate competition of the '07 Silverado against the '07 Tundra. The Silverado won but, in fairness to Toyota, the Tundra did very well, maybe even a tad better. The vehicles Motor Trend got from the manufacturers for the piece weren't very well matched in equipment and the bloated price of the Tundra ended up tipping the scales against it.

    I can't blame GM ('07) and Toyota ('08) for including TOTY in their marketing hype. but TOTY is a meaningless award. Even Motor Trend admits their criteria for inclusion in the competition is so restrictive too few trucks go head to head to make it interesting or meaningful. They're stuck with this mess as long as they stick to TOTY being a copy-cat of COTY.
  • b2900b2900 Member Posts: 20
    This may help you understand how MT make the decisoin and yes this video does state that there were few trucks to review as trucks will retain the designs for several years unlike cars.
  • autuerautuer Member Posts: 3
    Thought you'd be interested in seeing some *other* youtube videos about Tundra, posted by real owners, not scam "race" videos by the company.

    Excessive Tundra Bed bounce due to weak frame:

    Massive Bed bounce and twist captured in Torsional reaction video study of F150, Silverado, and Tundra (hint: Tundra sucks)

  • farmerrubefarmerrube Member Posts: 33
    So folks sure aint workin them tundra ones with that bed bounce now. How is that tundra goin last in them fields now? How much did that factory pay that motor trend for that award? That forien one sure is goin break fast if worked hard, thats for sure! Good luck on this one now!
  • sknabtsknabt Member Posts: 14
    mschmal, thanks for posting those links. Particularly the highway footage of the Tundra's ridiculous vibration problem.

    There's also one put out comparing frame flex with the Ford F-150 vs. the Tundra by the same folks who put out the bed bounce video you posted. I don't have it handy but it demonstrates the superiority of a fully boxed frame, the F-150's in this case (I'm sure they're sponsored by Ford). They put weights on one corner of each frame and the Tundra's c-frame bends like a reed in the wind while the Ford is far stronger. It may explain the Tundra's massive flex in the bed bounce video you posted because the Tundra's weaker frame is bound to flex like crazy in a test like that. The Chevy's excessive play in the rear appears to be suspension issues, not the bed flexing much and it, too, is fully boxed.

    Of course, these are just tests. How practical are they? But they do prove that the fully boxed frames of the new Fords and GMs are far more rigid.

    Toyota, a company leaning heavily on a reputation of uncompromising quality, has really cut corners in the Tundra. Mediocre crash test scores. Weaker frame. Cheaper interior. Relatively unsophisticated 4x4 system. Limited slip differential (versus locking). Then they have the nerve to charge thousands more just because it says "Toyota" on the tailgate.
  • h20h20 Member Posts: 42
    Get off my butt? you have got to be kidding.I have much more important things to take care of than, visiting showrooms and the interiors of sierras I know those things are importent to you but i just don't have time for the lies and propaganda. Glad you have time in your life for all of that, you must be retired or being payed by well who ever. Happy new year!
  • farmerrubefarmerrube Member Posts: 33
    Why cant that factory figure this one out now? If that frame aint boxed on that tundra, how is that one goin last long workin them fields and such? We need trucks with haul, and ones that last long now. First we got them hi-lux ones, then them t100 ones, and then them little tundras. All of them ones break quick if worked hard. Now that factory gives us them new bigger tundra ones... but they got that t100 frame! That frame is goin twist and snap when loaded down now. Once again that forien factory is trickin folks into buyin them ones, yet they are bustin quick! Me, I will stick with them big3 ones, them ones last long and work hard. Fact is facts on this one now. Good luck on this one now!
  • mschmalmschmal Member Posts: 1,757
    Actually I think the Chevy Trailblazer has had a quite a few more recalled than the Focus ever did.

  • sknabtsknabt Member Posts: 14
    "Get off my butt? you have got to be kidding.I have much more important things to take care of than, visiting showrooms and the interiors of sierras I know those things are importent to you but i just don't have time for the lies and propaganda. Glad you have time in your life for all of that, you must be retired or being payed by well who ever. Happy new year! "

    Let me see. You've twice replied to me with insults. Twice you've accused me of being on the take. Now you're calling me a liar and a propagandist. Yet, you admit you haven't personally investigated my claims and have no intention becoming informed on the topic. Sad, really sad.

    My interest and knowledge is quite simple. I've been researching some full-size pick-ups because I was shopping for one. I talk up the Sierra because I was impressed enough with them to take delivery on a Sierra SLT last evening.

    Isn't that what the Edmunds forums are for? Car buyers, shoppers, and general enthusiasts?

    BTW, I've never worked for GM, any other car company, any marketing company, nor am I a GM loyalist (this is the first GM I've ever owned).
  • KCRamKCRam Mt. Arlington NJMember Posts: 3,516
    I read h20's "lies and propaganda" comment to mean coming from salespeople, not from you. And while I have an excellent dealer and sales staff where I get my Rams (and Mark certainly knows his F-series), I can agree that many salespeople don't know their product and just repeat the marketing scripts they're given.

    kcram - Pickups Host
  • kyle11kyle11 Member Posts: 11
    I think that it will stil be the best.
  • kyle11kyle11 Member Posts: 11
    The Honda Ridgeline stinks.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
  • kyle11kyle11 Member Posts: 11
    Dodge is the best!!!!!!!!!!!!
  • h20h20 Member Posts: 42
    since you took dilivery on your gm and the only reason you were posting here was because you were researching trucks i presume you will not post here again,.please don't misunderstand this as an attack on you. happy hollidays. if you do keep posting you will have made my point paid by who?????
  • farmerrubefarmerrube Member Posts: 33
    Would like to hear a tell on how them ones is doin in the fields and such. Is them beds twistin and tailgates bustin? Any rust popin on them ones yet? Them forien ones got thinner metal... pops rust quicker. That be the way of them ones now. Seems like most folks is workin that hiway with them ones... not fields. Plenty of them big3 ones is workin hard, but what of them forien ones? Good luck on this one now!
  • KCRamKCRam Mt. Arlington NJMember Posts: 3,516
    Enough with the payola accusations. Or someone paid by Edmunds will do something about it. Understood?

    kcram - Pickups Host
  • cruiser69cruiser69 Member Posts: 40
    Hey Rube...we grew up on farms too with F 250's and Cheyenne 2500's with 454 V8's. You know as well as i do that real farm work must be done with heavy duty 3/4 tons or more. Half tons are not and never will be designed for heavy duty use. You can put as big a springs and lift kits and big tires on half tons all you want but that does not change the fact that the frame is not designed for extreme duty work. The Super Duty Fords today still use a version of the Twin I beam suspension, which to this day is unmatched by anyone in terms of payload and towing capacities simply because its the strongest known design to be used in light to medium duty pickups such as the F-450 and 550.

    Ford, Chevy, and Dodge all must be loaded with options and properly equipt to do any kind of heavy work anyway. I agree 100 percent that the bed flex is unacceptable but any auto manufacturer tries to get away with putting as little strength into a vehicle structure as possible to see what they can get away with before adding more strength to it. Its so they can maximize profits. Its just good business. Ever slam the door on a 2007 Ford F-150 extended cab? The doors wobble and shake like waves in lake michigan. The dash is cheap plastics held together with spit and glue. The days of 200,000 mile gas pickups are over.

    Anyone can beat the hell out of a vehicle but there is no comparing trucks from the glory days when you could work on them and they used heavier steel. Those trucks are dying out. Plus they were a pain to start in the winter, rusted bad, sucked fuel, and did not provide much horsepower. The gearing was so low in some you didn't dare to go over 55 miles an hour with split rims and 8 ply tall tires.

    Todays trucks are better by leaps in bounds in every category. The Tundra will fix the problems it has, quickly. God knows the somewhat Big Three has had more than their share of recalls, fires, trans problems, four wheel drive problems, and everything else under the sun. The 2008 F-Series Super Duty Diesel just had early problems with flames shooting out of the tail pipe due to the emissions control system. Dont let the most dependable slogan from GM fool you either.

    That is based on active full line truck registrations, that does not tell you how many of those trucks have rebuilt engines, transmissions, or rebuilt titles. Plus, GM has manufactured far more trucks combined than Ford so simply saying more are on the road is misguided. Of course their are because more are manufactured so odds are more will be on the road.

    Their was nothing wrong with the first generation Tundra. It got excellent fuel economy, offered an 8 foot bed, had a decent payload amount, towed a decent amount, and had a very strong frame. It was fully boxed with eight crossmembers, something Ford and GM did not have on their half tons. We were still given the soft suspension, squishy brakes GM half tons and Fords crash test failing F-150.

    Its GM and Ford who played catch up design wise to the structural integraty of the Tundra and towing duties of the Nissan Titan at the time of their introduction. The Tundra was squeak and rattle free. The same trucks built at the same time from Ford, GM, and Dodge were not. The Nissan Titan set the new standard in half ton towing capacities in its introduction. Ford simply bumped its numbers up with no changes to the drivetrain whatsoever. This is not the first time Ford has been accused of overreporting numbers...remember the Mustang Cobra?

    I think all light truck companies tend to overexaggerate the vehicles true capabilities.....they may be able to do those maximum numbers...but i sure would not do it for very long.

    Bottom line is, Toyota has more work to do. So does Nissan. But GM, Ford, and Dodge certainly are not the perfect half tons either. Anything will break if you beat it long enough, no matter who makes it.
  • h20h20 Member Posts: 42
    I agree no payola on Edmonds, (100%). understood. I will toe the line boss.
  • mschmalmschmal Member Posts: 1,757
    What surprise does NAIAS hold in store? What the 2009 F-150 better offer if Ford wants to stay on top.

    1st are given. Things that Ford needs or they should just close.
    - Stability Control standard.
    - Curtain air bags standard.
    - Interior upgraded to similar to Expedition only with push through controls for radio and HVAC as Focus and Escape

    Now things I think Ford MUST do for the 2009 Ford F-150.

    - 6 speed Auto trans.
    - 3.5L V6 with 250HP and 250LBFT of Torque possibly replacing the 4.6L
    - Keep the 4.6L only with the 3V head from the Mustang/Explorer for 290hp and 325 LBFT of torque.
    - Enhance the 5.4L to at least 350hp/390 LBFT
    - BOSS 6.2L V8 with 380hp/450 lbft of torque
    - 4.4L Diesel 330 hp/ 500+ lbft of torque.
    - tail gate step and bed extended from Super Duty.

    IRS from Expedition
    3.5L V6 twin force with 28mpg.
    Hydraulic Hybrid with 60mpg city.
  • kboynton1kboynton1 Member Posts: 3
    all you guys arguing about whos the better truck. Now as for payload and all that i'll tell you right now. To the average consumer anymore nobody cares anymore. Shameful fact about today's consumer is that people only care about looks; if it looks tough then it must be strong. Right now the truck that has it beat with tough looks is the Tundra, sorry to those who feel i'm and idiot but you know its the truth. Now i'm not saying the Tundra has highest payload, I'm not even saying its the strongest pickup out there. But you gotta admit, it looks like a tough truck, therefore everyone's gonna go for it for its looks not its power. So out of who i think is gonna go out on top? Unless the F-150 can step up its tough looking game, then the Tundra currently has it beat and it will continue until Ford changes the F-150's look to a more, tough and powerful look.

    Tough Looks Ratings:

    1) 2008 Toyota Tundra
    2) 2008 Ford F-150
    3) 2008 Dodge Ram 1500
    4) 2008 GM Silverado/Sierra
    5) 2008 Nissan Titan
    6) 2008 Honda Ridgeline (as for looks, its not pretty with non tough looks like Titan, but its rediculous on how hard Honda tried, thierfore it got last on my list)
  • farmerrubefarmerrube Member Posts: 33
    We need ones with haul... like them big3 ones. We work them trucks, on that farm now. Trouble with them forien ones is they bust or rust... so they aint last long or workin hard.

    We still work this 52 haulin...

    We haul these trains... six to seven of them ones... nose to tail now...

    Can that tundra work them fields and last long? Can that tundra haul six to seven trains, day in and out, year to year? Them big3 ones do now, thats for sure. What say too this one now? Good luck on this one now!
  • obyoneobyone Member Posts: 7,841
    Tough looks rating?

    Looks are subjective. Some might say the Tundra is ugly. Does ugly equate to toughness? One thing Toyota is not known for is styling.
  • mule4mule4 Member Posts: 36
    Rube the picture would have looked better if the truck would have been hooked to the trailers. There are a lot of old trucks setting in fields that are broke down.I own a new tundra that pulls a Jayco 34 ft. tt 7500# dry wt. 9500# loaded.1115# tongue wt. It pulls it good in hills & mts.I have out pulled chev. & fords in the mts.The frames that posters say are weak Don't seem to be a problem.About some posters saying the truck is ugly that don't matter to me.The new chev. p/u looks like a sway back horse.The cab sets lower than the front & the bed.Besides that we all have different views on looks.The tundra is the best truck i've owned equal to a dodge diesel i had.Some folks think the new chev. & fords are the best & are not having trouble go to their forums & look & look again in 2 or 3 years Lots of problems will be showing up by then.
  • KCRamKCRam Mt. Arlington NJMember Posts: 3,516
    ..............Dec 07 / Dec 06 / +/- / CY 2007 / CY 2006 / +/-
    F-Series / 55,069 / 70,580 / -22.0 / 690,589 / 796,039 / -13.2
    Silverado / 53,560 / 52,396 / 2.2 / 618,257 / 636,069 / -2.8
    Ram / 32,118 / 32,875 / -2.0 / 358,295 / 364,177 / -2.0
    Sierra / 19,782 / 17,541 / 12.8 / 208,243 / 210,736 / -1.2
    Tundra / 19,219 / 12,468 / 54.1 / 196,555 / 124,508 / 57.4
    Titan / 4,785 / 5,575 / -14.2 / 65,746 / 72,192 / -9.2
    Mark LT / 551 / 1,155 / -52.3 / 8,382 / 12,753 / -34.3

    Toyota damn near made their target... give 'em credit, although it took some massive incentives to do it.

    Ford took a beating this year; loss of over 100,000 units is a problem.

    The 09 F150 and Ram 1500 will both debut at Detroit/NAIAS in a couple of weeks, so Toyota and GM will see if the bar was matched or raised.

    kcram - Pickups Host
  • cruiser69cruiser69 Member Posts: 40
    Its all about size and capacity. If Nissan and Toyota decide to make 3/4 ton and 1 ton trucks, of course they can. By the way, hauling six to seven trains down a public highway is illegal. How the heck do you turn a corner? When we hauled fully loaded grain wagons, which are much heavier then the crop your showing on there, we could only legally tow two at a time. Plus, im sure your driving very slow, otherwise you would get far too much sway. Again, unless your driving in a straight line, i dont see how a six or seven trailer road train can turn a corner. Sorry.
  • farmerrubefarmerrube Member Posts: 33
    Eyeball that front tire on that 52... notice that tire aint flat... and got that mud around it? That mud got there workin that one... it sure aint parked any now! We got us a boneyard with some ones in it now... but that 52 and a few others is still workin hard. We haul them trains field to field now... not on them twisty streets! Trouble with them forien ones is rustin and bustin. If them forien ones is lastin so long, where is all them hi-lux ones gone too? Answer that mystery now... and you will be closer too that truth on them forien ones, thats for sure. Good luck on this one now!

  • sknabtsknabt Member Posts: 14
    kcram, good post. I've been curious of Tundra sales. I agree 100%, Toyota has been offering huge incentives to meet their 200k target. I believe they entered December at 177k units and facing month-to-month declines in sales. When I bought my Sierra there were few '07s on the lots of local dealers (I was shown 1 demo). OTOH, the local Toyota dealer I shopped a Tundra for had 26 '07s on the lot and was running display ads in the newspaper boasting $6k off the sticker. The salesman boasted he was "giving them away" and "not making a penny profit." I'm betting Toyota went ahead and produced 200k '07s, their target, despite light demand and pushed them on their dealer network with killer, give-away incentives.

    Ford has a huge problem. I read their financial problems are so deep they can't afford a full redesign of the F-150 so they're just "refreshening" the interior, grill, and some other minor tweaks. Long-term that's a failed strategy.

    The Tundra doesn't have to be as good as the rest of the pack, IMHO, because it's a Toyota. I know that sounds strange but I know a lot of people who only shop Toyota. A lot of friends kept impressing upon me the importance of buying a Toyota and nothing else. It isn't even an America vs. Japanese quality issue because only one suggested the Honda Ridgeline or the Nissan Titan.

    I could tell them the big differences in features/price/reliability between it and the Sierra I had discovered but it didn't impact them. It's a Toyota and, by definition, it's better than the rest. Who cares if they're recalled it twice? Who cares if the interior is sub-par? Who cares if it only has 4-star crash ratings? Who cares if the offer Toyota gave me on an '07 was over $5k greater than the offer I got on a better optioned '08 Sierra? It's gotta be inherently better. It's gotta be worth the $$$ premium.

    The fact is Honda is the top-rated car brand according to Consumer Reports. Toyota's actually slipping in their quality ratings.

    Tundras aren't yet really competing in the work truck category from what I've seen and heard. So the fact they aren't as tough (e.g., lack a fully boxed frame) as domestic full-size trucks isn't an issue yet. The casual users who are buying it for carrying DIY home projects and hauling junk to the dump don't care. It does surprise me that the Tundra doesn't offer a more sophisticated 4x4 system so these commuters can easily switch to it in snow and heavy rain but I'm sure Toyota will fix that problem in later model years.

    But the topic is asking if the Tundra will overtake the F-150 in sales just as Toyota dominates in other categories like minivans and cars. IMHO, they don't have a chance with the current design. To get volume it needs to become a fleet work truck. Toyota's bloated price makes that a difficult proposition. However, it does stand a chance of becoming a dominant fixture in the suburbs where affluent yuppies are more than happy to pay premiums for the 'prestige' of owning a Toyota.

    I've owned 2 Toyotas. Fine cars. But I paid a huge premium for them. Fine in the '80s when Detroit and Europe were pumping out unreliable junkers and the reliability choice came down pretty much to Honda vs. Toyota. Cars have generally gotten more reliable plus there are more good alternatives to Toyota (and Honda) like Hyundai.

    It'll be interesting to see how long Toyota can ride it's reputation. I just read a Consumer Reports' review of SUVs with 3 rows of seating. The Toyota Highlander was rated the best SUV they've ever tested. Really? If you read their review it sounds like a solid choice but hardly overwhelming. Stuff that CR used to choke on, especially when the car came from Detroit, didn't phase them like sub-par interior fit/finish/materials, the lowest crash test score of the group, so-so driving characteristics, weak child seat set-up, and cramped rear seating.

    The Buick Enclave that came in a clear 2nd in that group (overall, it's the 4th ranked SUV behind an Acura in 2nd and a Honda in 3rd), while hardly perfect, seemed better in all areas except some transmission shifting issues (somewhat fixed by a software upgrade) and poor gas mileage (by 3 mpg in a group of gas hogs so who cares?).

    Reliability wasn't an issue because both the Highlander and Enclave were new models and CR had no statistics so didn't consider it.

    Of course, CR has been criticized - rightly so, IMHO - in having a pro-Toyota bias.

    Domestic car/truck manufacturers have a long way to go in rebuilding their trashed reputations. Designing superior trucks that cost less doesn't appear to be helping them against the Tundra thus far. Over time, if they can keep producing a high-quality product maybe the 'I only buy Toyota' crowd will start to thin.
  • 1offroader1offroader Member Posts: 208
    Excellent post, many good points. I also know some folks who just shop Honda, or just shop Toyota. Back in the 60s & 70s you were an 'idiot' if you bought anything made in Japan - it was mostly cheasy junk. Then, the tide began to turn in the late 70s/early 80s when Japan went quality-oriented, while Detroit languished and rode its momentum into the ground. Then, thru the 90s and 00s you were an 'idiot' if you bought anything from Detroit. That tide is now turning also. Funny what competition does (Root hog, or die!) But, it takes awhile for folks to see it. Humans are basically herd animals, and it takes a while for a herd to undergo a change of thinking. That's happening now with the Tundra vs. Big3, and it is magnified when Japan shows its soft underbelly - a desire for profits over quality, same as Detroit. However, I think the Japanese corporate culture allows for a faster recognition and fixing of the problems. Toyota will fix the problems and design errors, pronto. It won't take decades. If Detroit lets up Toyota will turn the tables in their favor - again.

    Where I disagree with you is your comment that building better trucks doesn't help the Big3. Wrong. It helps immensely. Look at total Big3 sales vs. Tundra. Tundra is a small fraction. Subtract out the "brand snobs" who only shop Toyota (50%??), and you have about 100,000 buyers who actually looked at all the offerings and still bought the Tundra. And how many of those actually work their trucks hard?

    Toyota has a looooong way to go to really crack that market, but I wouldn't necessarily bet against them.

  • farmerrubefarmerrube Member Posts: 33
    It be yuppies who buy them forien ones... then they work them ones on that hi-way ride to them office buildings and grocery stores and such. But that workin man... he buys them big3 ones, them the ones with that haul. That tundra frame and tailgate is snappin if put to work any, thats the facts on that one now! We need trucks too work that field and such, not ones that bust and rust. It's not about no trends, it's about haul. Facts is facts. Good luck on this one now!
  • h20h20 Member Posts: 42
    run scarred cuz yuppiies are runnin up your bumm they are cummin to get ya and youl have to buy that [non-permissible content removed] make ya dont want tah cuz it is tha best ta keep that farm going ya no . open yur back woods eyes and see its commin ats ya all!!! buy the best not the american trade mark you think is the best. facts is facts right. or i could say imho over and over again.
  • cruiser69cruiser69 Member Posts: 40
    Thanks for the info! I knew the figure was close for the Tundra.
  • cruiser69cruiser69 Member Posts: 40
    LOL, way to go, H20. I have had wonderfuly detailed replies to his ranting but what a suprise, no response. Looks like he should stay in dem fields and off the forums...never left the county now...using some of his own product i thinks........yeszereeee....:) He like pictures of dem trucks on his farm...a relic...rustin away.
  • obyoneobyone Member Posts: 7,841
    You ever get that unidentifiable noise fixed on your Tundra? Ever figure out what it was?

    Good luck on this one now.
  • farmerrubefarmerrube Member Posts: 33
    That one you be callin that relic is workin hard well over 50 years now. We hauled with that one as a younger. But where is all them hi-lux and t100 ones gone? Rustin and bustin, the way of them forien ones now. That tundra got that camry frame and sheet metal, good for workin that hi-way, but not them farms now. What part of this one aint folks gettin? Try workin that tundar one in them fields, then see which one gets parked quicker now! Facts is facts on this one now. Good luck on this one now!
  • cruiser69cruiser69 Member Posts: 40
    Already answered all of your questions rube....scroll back and read the replies for a change. T-100 is not a full size truck. If you search online, most t-100's are still running and have at least 250,000 miles, and no rust. Plus their resale is higher than any of the old stuff you got. Compare the right classes rube. 1/2 ton to 1/2 ton, 3/4 to 3/4 and so on. You dont compare a 3/4 ton to a 1/2 ton. Problem with understanding or something? When Toyota and Nissan do make 3/4 tons, you bet they will be in them fields. New GM trucks got 88 technical service bullitons for all kinds of engine, electrical and drivetrain problems. Your trucks never leave the fields so what does that prove? Its called using a tractor rube. Its cheaper to operate and maintain. Your crop is not that heavy anyway.

    Plus a Camry does not have a frame, it has a unibody. The first generation Tundra, not t-100, had a fully boxed frame with eight crossmembers, no one else did at the time of its introduction. But again, i already said that. Toyota trucks dont sell where you live because of back water discrimination from people like you, afraid of change. I bet you still own a Zenith tv from the 70's. Thank God the good Lord invented an ignorance control method known as passing away.
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