I guess it depends on what your definition of "best" is. Is it the company that sells the most cars?(GM,Toyota) Is the company that makes the most exciting cars?(Porsche,Ferrari) Is it the company with the richest history?(Mercedes)
Honda is certainly one of the best,but even that is relative. You have to compare Honda to its peers, Toytoa,GM,Ford,Renault,Fiat etc. Honda cannot be compared to BMW,Rolls Royce,Mercedes,Ferrari. It's like arguing who the best boxer is,weight classes have to be taken into account.
it is hard to argue this car setting the benchmark among family sedans, again.
How do you figure? aside from the cylindar deactivation, there's hardly anything new in it. It's not offering anything new that will set it apart from the competition. doesn't seem to me that they innovated much at all. If anything it just seems to me they keep up with the newly redesigned altima and camry.
That being said, honda is deffinitly a great company. But the best? Way too subjective. As someone else said, Ford GM and Toyota are bigger. Nissan has its storied history in performance (and still dominates many international circuits), Porche and ferrari can out perform anything, mercedes and bmw are some of the finest luxury vehicles on the market.
You bring up an interesting point. Innovation and such started me on Honda but there has been less of that of late.
That said they probably make the best engines to be had in mass market vehicles and are as reliable as anything you'll find.
I was showing my 15 year old daughter a little under the hood the other day and it's amazing looking at the engine on that 00 Accord with 137K on it. No grease - just dust - and it hums along as quietly as it ever did.
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
Nothing major, but here are a few things that could have been better in the new Accord:
Exterior Honda should have used a bit softer front end. The basic idea is on the mark, just a little lacking in execution. The bulge in headlamps should have been avoided. It is a contemporary design (also seen in other Hondas like CR-V and Odyssey), but from certain angles, it exaggerates the size of the front end, and doesn’t flow well with otherwise crisp lines. The bumper design could be better. I love the side profile. However, the rear, while good looking, could use a bit of glamour without going overboard. Honda gave a lot of character to 2006-2007 Accords in that regard (especially the coupe), but for 2008, and especially in sedan, it is lacking somewhat. The coupe is fine, but not quite what we saw in the concept.
Interior The concept is wonderful. But, again, Honda got carried away by doing virtually everybody else is doing. Painted plastic that are supposed to look like metal are not something I like (in any car). I’m wary of its wear and tear. They should have kept it simple, and used a touch of chrome like they always have. I would much rather have black plastic over the aluminum/silver/gun metal textures.
Drive train Good engines, with nothing about output to complain about. But, in a typical Honda/Acura fashion, the transmission ratios leave something to be desired. Honda engines are refined and powerful, but they seem to overlook something that helps translate the power part to people’s heads. While I find the transmission ratios to be okay with 177 HP motor, the 190 HP motor deserves a shorter (ratio), closer (ratio) and wide (span) approach to transmission (both, manual and automatic).
With V6, they have done a great job with manual transmission. Given the combination of power, torque and transmission ratios (6MT), that car is going to be a strong car, off the line and at any legal speed. But, with automatic, Honda chose to go slightly shorter than earlier, but not enough. I would have preferred to see shorter low gears and a taller top gear. Honda went for the opposite, and as a result, people are going to feel it a little “softer” than what the spec sheet suggests.
Trim Levels I prefer leather and moon roof. Not everybody does. I was going to suggest Accord Coupe V6 to a friend of mine, but now I can’t, given that she doesn’t like leather.
The trim levels could be better. Honda added more confusion to the matter by now calling what used to be LXV6, EXV6. If Accord must have only two trim levels for V6, then Honda should have LXV6 without moonroof and leather, while both being standard on EXV6. In four cylinder lineup, I also don’t see the point of LX-P and LX-S trims. They should have gone with simpler designations from the past that actually were easy to identify (DX, LX, EX).
So the list of misses you give is purely subjective. Exterior styling, no matter what it looks like EVERYONE will not like it. Interior styling, again subjective. Drivetrain, many previous Accord owners have complained that the auto transmissions shift harshly (I like them that way), so Honda made the transmission shift smoother, and still people will complain about no feel. Trim levels, it doesn't matter what car you are looking for, the likelyhood of finding a car with everything you want, and nothing you don't want, is not very good. Can't you come up with anything that's not subjective/just your opinion. No car is perfect, but the Accord is as close as it gets.
Can't you come up with anything that's not subjective/just your opinion. No car is perfect, but the Accord is as close as it gets.
No diesel Accord in the USA yet. That was the only way that Honda could sell cars in places like the UK. Yes Honda builds great gas engines. They just do not compare to their diesel engines. Bring on the diesel Honda's, and they may have a return customer.
Not all is subjective. Some of it is objective (drive train, as well as trim levels... it matters). Clearly Accord isn't perfect, but darn close. I would have liked to see those little steps taken so we have fewer things to complain about.
Thank you for your response to robertsmx. I couldn't have said it better.
There are always a few people who have their opinion about what Honda "should" do or "should" offer. A week doesn't go by that I don't hear some oddball comment or complaint that I have never heard before and will probably never hear again.
Some people think Honda should come up with some oddball model that few people will ever buy. We had a good example of that recently when Honda decided to produce V-6 sedans with six speed manual transmissions.
They have now been dropped because they didn't sell.
BUT, if they didn't sell, why were they so hard to find???
is it the chicken or the egg?
When I wanted to get mine, I had very little choice. I found 3 and they were all exactly the same (silver on black, no nav). And this was in May, not the end of the model run.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
thats' the thing, though ... and i know you and I have had this discussion before. How can they know they won't sell if they don't have any? I mean, someone comes in (or doesn't come in at all because they've searched online inventory and found the shop didn't have it) and asks for it and its not there, they have to move on. So I have to wonder how many sales were lost because the dealer didn't order any or didn't have the right color.
I know its not a big seller by any means, but some market share is better than none, isn't it? As it is, unless they change their minds, this will be my only and last accord.
Oh, and I don't even want to get into the fact that most salespeople would respond to the question for a V6 6-speed as "oh, those are tough to come by! when we get them, they go quick! we can't discount them much!" That is ... of course ... until you are trading one in. THEN its a dog.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
What happened to the concept of ordering a vehicle the way you want it? I remember a salesman telling me you don't need AC just pick one of the vans on the lot. I ordered from out of state, got air, color I wanted, big gas tank and saved several thousand dollars. I ordered a Prelude once. I think it was 1986. I wanted white and they could not find one in the 1985 vintage. The car came in and the new model had a phony spoiler tacked onto the trunk. I said no way do I want that car and got my deposit back. I did not look at another Honda until the Accord Hybrid came out. Of course we all know that was a HUGE disappointment. I will probably take another look at Honda when they build a Pilot diesel for this country. Hopefully they don't hose that up also.
> as "oh, those are tough to come by! when we get them, they go quick! we can't discount them much!" That is ... of course ... until you are trading one in. THEN it's a dog.
Hehe. Isn't that always the case. It's amazing how many people buy that line from the car salesman.
We honestly thought there would be a decent market for them so when they became available, we ordered a few. I think we had maybe four of them. They sat and sat. I think we dealer traded two of them and the other two finally went away. In a lot of cases "some" market share just isn't worth a production run. For every manual a dealer ordered, that was one automatic they couldn't order. That's how the allocation works.
I realize YOU like manuals. I do too but the vast majority of people are like my wife. She can drive a stick but she hates them for the usual reasons.
Same thing with colors. Every once in awhile, Honda will come out with a DOG of a color that almost everybody hates.
Still, there will always be that person who just has to have that color.
Honda probably won't change their minds, so what then would you buy? You wouldn't have many choices.
And, yeah, cars that don't sell well as new cars tend to do even worse as used cars..UNLESS, you find that one person!
out of the 300 employees here, we have 2 V6 Accord sedans with the 6-speed box. We also have 2 other people with coupes of the same nature.
Now, that may not sound like much, but there are folks who were clamoring for the V6 with the stick in a sedan form. These two guys I work with had their dealers order them for them since they weren't stocked. They wanted them badly enough that they sucked it up and waited for one to come in.
But think of how many people didn't want to go through the hassles of custom ordering and went elsewhere. Sure, maybe they ponied up a few bucks more for a TL, but there is also the Altima and Mazda 6 out there to snap those Accord customers.
I bet there were more takers than Honda dealers gave credit for. :mad:
In different parts of the country I'm sure sticks sell better. Here in Seattle we have TONS of traffic and lots of hills. Still, had they sold in any numbers nationwide, they wouldn't have been dropped.
Seattle I can understand. Any of those hilly type places probably don't sell too many sticks, Accords or otherwise. But unless Honda has some kind of sporty sedan in the works, you're going to see a lot of us enthusiasts jumping ship for the competition.
Don't take it the wrong way BTW. I absolutely adore my S2000 and I have owned 3 different Accords with very good manual gearboxes. The V6 - stick combo is a beast (At least the last one was) yet a big turnoff was the lack of rear occupancy room. The sedan made up for that, fun without the compromises...
I am sad to see the V6 sedan version disappear since Honda builds one of thee best gearboxes I have ever driven and in V6 form i found very little reason to consider a Car like a BMW or Infiniti.
Not everyone can pony up for an Acura, and I'm sure not many want to settle for a Civic. That's all.
It was a simple business decision to drop the V-6 manual sedans. They will still build six speed coupes but even these are VERY slow sellers compared to the automatics.
Honda probably won't change their minds, so what then would you buy? You wouldn't have many choices.
You are correct, of course, that manuals in this particular class are hard to come by. I would have to switch classes, that's all. I mean, it really is SO MUCH of a compromise for me to settle for a conventional slushbox that I would make OTHER compromises. For instance, a stripper BMW or a used one.
Maybe Honda will come out with some sort of DSG by the time my lease is up in 20 months. A DSG diesel accord might be pretty sweet.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
shopping in that segment, I'd have to go with the Altima. My sister has one and it such a nice car. The new Mazda 6 would be a strong contender as well and even the current Acura TSX.
If I could swing it, I'd go 325i or Infiniti G35...
That was probably a good car to lease. With a lease, you can just walk away. I hear diesel rumors but again, most people woldn't want one. The people who do like diesels are very passionate about them and can't understand why everybody doesn't want one.
All of this reminds me of something.
Years ago, there was a small mom and pop restaurant near where I worked. They served great food and they had a limited menu.
One of their menu items was s selection a co-worker just LOVED. Liver and Onions!
One day, they came out with a new menu and Liver and Onions had been dropped! My co-worker couldn't understand how this could possibly have happened and he complained loudly.
Well, it seems that only he and a couple of other people ever ordered that and they let him know that.
He just couldn't understand why they would do that to him!
Not a good business decision. Your co-worker probably found a restaurant that served liver and onions. My understanding is that Honda dealers have people lined up to buy their diesel vehicles when they get here. What's not to like? Honda vehicles that get an honest 30% better economy model for model. The same cannot be said for hybrids. The only way I would consider buying a Honda.
PS I would have wanted the MDX in diesel. Except they really hosed up the looks this year.
oh yeah, this lease was really great. Ridiculously low MF, selling price below invoice. And as i've discovered, the resale of this model is in the toilet, yet HFC gave me the same residual as if it was an automatic. I'm VERY glad to be able to turn it in free and clear in 20 months. Based on current trends, it will probably be worth a good $3k below the residual.
Now, of course we're talking about trends in different areas. As you said, the sticks weren't popular in Seattle. Just like Liver and Onions wasn't popular at that particular restaurant. But in another restaurant in another town, it might be a best seller. What happens, however, if they stop producing liver because it isn't a best seller at EVERY restaurant? Alot of people lose their favorite dish. Now they gotta go eslewhere and find a new favorite dish. I find it kinda sad, personally. ;b
I'm sure its a valid business decision. I mean, I know it is, otherwise why do it. But it isn't necessarily the right decision.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Hey Isell, how are the new Accords doing? Have you got any yet (I'd assume yes)? Sounds like it's quite the car. I'll have to make a point to get down and drive one soon.
I doubt that I will ever hear from anyone else about your drivetrain complaints.
I already have. You may not have come across reviews that are questioning about the horses, I have seen a few now. Besides, it is only logical. I saw it in RL, then MDX, to some extent on RDX and I'm prepared to see the trend continue with Accord V6.
Honda perhaps thinks like you do. And that is a problem. They need to realize (and do something about it) that quite a few people will be more impressed with other vehicles if engine power (and feel of) is their priority. It is only logical. Ever thought how BMW gets by with 230 HP/200 lb-ft engine in its 528i yet Acura has tough time convincing people with 290 HP/258 lb-ft motor in RL? Tell me about it.
You have suggested trim levels that Honda wouldn't sell enough of to bother building them.
Really? How did you figure that one out? One of the main reasons Accord Hybrid didn't work was that it topped out at $33K. The answer is simple.
Honda chose EXV6 as the base, and added the hybrid premium on top of it. Do you not realize that people would have perceived it differently if Honda had started ~2K lower starting with LXV6 trim instead? Then, they would have a choice of EXV6 (for luxury) or Hybrid (for fuel economy), for about the same price.
Even better, had Honda considered hybrid with I-4 power, and beginning with LX trim instead. I've a feeling it would have worked much better.
Now, explain to me the point of putting moon roof on "all" V6 trims. Explain to me the point of putting leather in all "V6 coupes". They have already lost a customer by doing that, one of my friends. She will not buy a car with leather for physical reasons. And there are going to be plenty of people who would rather save $2K by not being forced into luxury features. Honda didn't learn from the RL, did it?
Most people, get in a car, start the engine and drive it normally. I seriously doubt if I will hear one complaint or comment about shift points or torque curves. If I do, it will be the first time in 12 years. I drove both a four and a six and they drive better than ever.
Of course, the gearheads in the car magazines love to nitpick but these aren't the average buyer.
The Accord Hybrid you mentioned is a good example of a model people requested that didn't sell well. Now, we have people ( a few) that are appalled Honda would drop them.
I agree with you. They should heve done this with the 4 bangers in LX trim.
A cloth V-6 coupe would be a dog but you are correct, we lost A customer because they didn't want to build a car very few people would buy. Honda does build LX coupes with V-6's. Talk about a dog! In 12 years, I have never sold even one of these.
You see, not everyone is like you. You are the exception. that isn't "bad" thing but no company can please everyone.
Companies try to please the masses and in doing so they will always lose a few people along the way.
I like the whole "Package pricing" strategy Honda uses, but at some point they really are going to alienate the non-cookie cutter enthusiast.
I mean, look at Toyota. Sure they're growing, sure they're the number 1 car manufacturer in the world. But they have very little in the way of excitement. Toyota is about as unenthusiastic as you can get, this side of Kia.
That's where Honda separated themselves, not just catering to the appliance market but those looking for a bit more of a drivers car. If they're going to follow Toyota into appliance-land then they're going to lose a lot of their core enthusiasts who helped get them into the position their in today.
Think about it, had we not been buying those NSX's legends, preludes, Integras, RSX's, CRX's, S2000's and sporty Accords over the years, Honda wouldn't have the cash-ola to build said appliance cars like Camcords and Civrollas.
No one will please everyone but I think Honda generally does a good job. I was disappointed on the Accord hybrid which was a car I was very much looking forward to and am very disappointed about the dropping of the manual on the V6 sedan.
Last time I bought an Accord I got the 4 specifically to have the stick. Looks like they'll put me in a 4 again. That's a shame.
The current Accord only has 137K on it. Maybe by the time I'm replacing it they'll change. If not maybe I'll go for a Mazda 6.
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
like i said, I'm sure it was the correct decision from a strict spreadsheet business sense. But I don't agree it was the right decision.
The way I see it, cutting your customer base, no matter how little, is poor forethought. It is not just a matter of losing those immediate sales, but there is a cascade effect when it comes to product sales.
How many times have you witnessed something like this: you take george and martha jones to the theatre in your car. they comment how nice it is, how roomy it is, whatever. next thing you know, the jones go and BUY one. By losing that one manual-driving customer, you might lose 3 or more automatic buyers. Know what I mean? Next thing you know, I'm driving a bmw when I take the Jones to the theatre and they fall in love with that and go buy it instead. And when 20 people over the next few years ask me for car buying advice, the Accord is farthest from my mind because they've alienated me. 1 lost sale can have larger consequences. But I'm sure you've heard that whole song and dance before.
but, anyway, I'm rambling. I'm not going to change Honda's mind, that's for sure. And, really, in the grand scheme of things, they were getting along fine without a 6-speed V6 for years and years and years, right?
I gotta wonder .... why do they continue to build 4-cyl with manual trannies? AND, what would have happened if they offered a 6-speed in a V6 car OTHER than a top-of-the-line EXL? Guess we'll never know.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
I appreciate Honda's trim package pricing, especially compared to Toyota's long option list. On the other hand, I'd love to be able to buy an EX without the sunroof. There are some folks who simply dislike them, and I'm one - so is my wife which is even more important! Unfortunately, you can't and this is enough to kill the sale for me. I understand "marketing for the masses" as I'm in corporate marketing, but this is one area that needs to be addressed by Honda. Not everyone who likes pseudo-luxury amenities desire sunroofs.
In my former life, I was one of those guys who sat around a conference table brainstorming why we should or shouldn't do something. There was never a 100% agreement from all of us on anything.
I don't know if I agree with your example or not but it probably would have been better if they had never built them at all.
Sticks simply don't sell well and that is a fact, like it or not. Honda does built 4 cyl sedans with manuals and they don't sell well either. Try buying a Camry 4 cyl with a stick. I believe they still make them but I know these were REALLY rare. They are also near impossible to sell as used cars.
I know it is impossible to please everybody. But that isn’t the point.
Why exactly does Honda generally take a middle ground? By that I mean, most of their products are neither all-out cushy nor all-out sporty. There is a reason to it. They want to strike a balance to broaden the appeal, to a wider audience. This is not pleasing everybody, but as many as they can. And with a high volume, significant product like Accord, it becomes all the more necessary.
But there is another problem, and that is something Honda has created for itself and doesn’t seem interested in addressing. They have TSX and TL to sell. Create a sporty trim for Accord, and fewer people will find an interest in TSX, and may be even TL. It would become harder to justify paying for a $28K-$30K TSX/6MT if Honda were to create a sport tuned Accord EXLV6/6MT for about the same price. So, they ensure those options are limited to coupe-form only. And that’s the reality.
Most people, get in a car, start the engine and drive it normally. I seriously doubt if I will hear one complaint or comment about shift points or torque curves. If I do, it will be the first time in 12 years. I drove both a four and a six and they drive better than ever.
Of course, the gearheads in the car magazines love to nitpick but these aren't the average buyer.
Why did then Honda ensure that the V6 is rated to match or beat the competition? Something that differentiates Honda from most others is that it appeals to an average driver as well as gearheads with me being one of them.
This is one of the rare occasions from Honda where I think bean counter-ship shows its presence in Hondadom. If anybody from Honda is indeed reading this, I would like them to challenge me on this topic.
“268 HP” increases expectations. Sure, it is 268 HP, but when people are going to compare, they will find the Honda V6 a little softer. Thanks to poor choice of gearing, and even more so, the some of the engineering compromises in lower end to incorporate 3-mode VCM. At this point, that power output becomes more of a gimmick. And if it isn’t, why were things taken differently for Accord V6/6MT coupe? That thing is going to be mighty powerful all the way. 268 HP in the coupe will be seen differently by people compared to 268 HP in the sedan. And this will be in addition to people who will read reviews about it.
And this is not nitpicking. This is frustration, Honda is either ignorant, or is willing to give up an upper hand to competition in some areas. And neither makes sense. Unless, they are trying to move away from gearheads like me (and I don’t write articles in magazines).
A cloth V-6 coupe would be a dog but you are correct, we lost A customer because they didn't want to build a car very few people would buy.
I have heard that one before. And I wouldn’t buy a car from a company or a sales person who couldn’t care less about losing “A” customer. That “A” customer could be me, who is the reason for at least ten friends/colleagues getting Hondas from the very same dealership. And this “A” customer they just lost would have been another (and more, after her friends got to see her new Accord which won’t happen now). That’s wonderful, right?
Explain to me, why a cloth V6 coupe would be a dog? And why would Honda offer cloth on V6 sedan? I think they thought the same way with Accord Hybrid, didn’t they? I’m hoping that they don’t create the same mess when diesels roll around.
Yeah, while I generally greatly prefer Honda's approach to Toyota's it has created some odd things for me. My Accord is green. Is this because I like green? No, it's because what we wanted in late 99 was an Accord with a stick and a sunroof. The only way to get this was a 4 cyl EX. It didn't come in red which would have been the first choice. If we'd settle for an automatic we could have that.
So, the dealer asks for our color preferences and we gave him all the colors in order. Green, which was down toward the bottom of the list, was what could be found at all locally.
Next time I may widen my search to include other cars.
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
Seriously, you should send your resume to Honda. Maybe they would hire you to straighten things out.
You simply have to realize that not all people think like you do. What seems to be of utmost importance to YOU isn't at all important to MOST people. Honda does try to strike a balance and I think they do a pretty good job of that.
And, I certainly do NOT pretend to speak on behalf of Honda but I'm sure they do worry about Honda cannabalizing sales from their Acura division so they have to make wise (to them, not to you) choices.
You can't seem to understand this, but certain configurations of models simply do not sell well. I never said Honda couldn't care less about losing one customer but WHY would ANY car manufacturer build a model that would have very few takers. Don't you think they research the market? Even so, sometimes their research doesn't help. The V-6 manual EX sedans that they dropped is a good example of that.
Yes, a CLOTH V-6 EX coupe would be a very poor seller. As I said, they do make CLOTH LX V-6 coupes and I have never, once sold one nor have I had an inquiry on one.
Maybe if you had ever worked in marketing you might understand better and that is NOT a slam. I don't expect everybody to understand. Hell, I don't understand everything Honda does!
I'm not arguing, and I don't believe anyone else is either, that the these configurations sell well. I understand they don't. But that's just not the point.
Let me ask you this. Did Honda have to beg dealers to take the 6-speeds off their hands? Are there unsold 6-speeds sitting in the parking lots of their plants? Even if the answer is yes, then they simply overestimated demand. But its not like they didn't sell ANY of them. Maybe I'm wrong, but isn't 1000 extra sales of an oddball model better than missing all of those sales completely?
WHY would ANY car manufacturer build a model that would have very few takers.
It happens ALL the time. I bet Honda sold more 6-speed sedans than some other manufacturers sold of whole model lines. Do you have access to those numbers? I'd really love to know how many 6-speed sedans they sold of each model year.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
I am curious. If I walk into your dealership looking for an Accord sedan with V6, manual, leather, no sunroof in white, what would you do? If you cannot find one, can't you order me one? It baffles me when I see people saying they had to take second choice in color. I have never done that with a GM truck. When they did not have what I wanted I ordered it and a few weeks later there it was. I think what I am reading is that Honda cannot perform this service for a customer. Has Honda deteriorated to the model T Ford where you can have any color as long as it is black?
I know when I bought my Civic Si recently, I couldn't get exactly what I wanted. My preferences were Si Sedan, Ralley Red, Summer Tires, and Nav. I ended up settling for one without Nav or Summer tires. The reason (as told by the dealer, who I have no reason to doubt): percentages. Only 5% of Si's are made with the Nav system. So, if 100 Si's are slated to be delivered to the Houston area, perhaps 1 will be red and have nav. That one may, or may not already be sold. Luckily it only comes in manual since, aside from sports cars, only a small percentage of any manufacturers cars are manual. Finding one on the lot is getting nearly impossible.
Before we narrowed it down to the Si, we considered the Nissan Altima, Honda Fit, Honda Element SC, Honda Accord, Camry, Scion Xb, and Scion Xa. No one had, or wanted to find, one with a manual.
When I was looking at Mustangs 7 years ago, I couldn't get a local dealer to get one in my color, trim, and tranny choice. Ended up buying a used one with 4800 miles (and saved big $$$).
You know, I have no idea what kind of formula Honda uses to determine whether it makes sense to produce a particular car. 1000 sales isn't much and that number may not justify producing them. It's also possible that SOME of those people would have bought automatics when they learned manuals were't available.
They could make pink Civics too and a FEW people would buy them. An efficent, well run company does not make products that few people want.
In my former life I was with a MAJOR tool company. They looked at sales constantly. When the sales of a certain tool dropped below a certain level it was dropped.
Naturally, there were always a few people who couldn't understand why that decision was made. The majority never noticed and didn't care.
didn't they make pink civics? or purple? or some other god awful colors? not recently, but like early 90s or maybe the 80s? maybe the aftermarket has confused me.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Comments
Is it the company that sells the most cars?(GM,Toyota)
Is the company that makes the most exciting cars?(Porsche,Ferrari)
Is it the company with the richest history?(Mercedes)
Honda is certainly one of the best,but even that is relative.
You have to compare Honda to its peers, Toytoa,GM,Ford,Renault,Fiat etc.
Honda cannot be compared to BMW,Rolls Royce,Mercedes,Ferrari.
It's like arguing who the best boxer is,weight classes have to be taken into account.
How do you figure? aside from the cylindar deactivation, there's hardly anything new in it. It's not offering anything new that will set it apart from the competition. doesn't seem to me that they innovated much at all. If anything it just seems to me they keep up with the newly redesigned altima and camry.
That being said, honda is deffinitly a great company. But the best? Way too subjective. As someone else said, Ford GM and Toyota are bigger. Nissan has its storied history in performance (and still dominates many international circuits), Porche and ferrari can out perform anything, mercedes and bmw are some of the finest luxury vehicles on the market.
That said they probably make the best engines to be had in mass market vehicles and are as reliable as anything you'll find.
I was showing my 15 year old daughter a little under the hood the other day and it's amazing looking at the engine on that 00 Accord with 137K on it. No grease - just dust - and it hums along as quietly as it ever did.
fussycrvowner, "Honda CR-V Maintenance and Repair" #5534, 10 Sep 2007 5:55 am
And no, it isn't just VCM that makes a car a benchmark. Not even VCM is something new. So, what exactly were you looking for (or not)?
Don't know why the E-mail would bounce. It's the right one there....
Exterior
Honda should have used a bit softer front end. The basic idea is on the mark, just a little lacking in execution.
The bulge in headlamps should have been avoided. It is a contemporary design (also seen in other Hondas like CR-V and Odyssey), but from certain angles, it exaggerates the size of the front end, and doesn’t flow well with otherwise crisp lines.
The bumper design could be better.
I love the side profile. However, the rear, while good looking, could use a bit of glamour without going overboard. Honda gave a lot of character to 2006-2007 Accords in that regard (especially the coupe), but for 2008, and especially in sedan, it is lacking somewhat. The coupe is fine, but not quite what we saw in the concept.
Interior
The concept is wonderful. But, again, Honda got carried away by doing virtually everybody else is doing. Painted plastic that are supposed to look like metal are not something I like (in any car). I’m wary of its wear and tear. They should have kept it simple, and used a touch of chrome like they always have. I would much rather have black plastic over the aluminum/silver/gun metal textures.
Drive train
Good engines, with nothing about output to complain about. But, in a typical Honda/Acura fashion, the transmission ratios leave something to be desired. Honda engines are refined and powerful, but they seem to overlook something that helps translate the power part to people’s heads. While I find the transmission ratios to be okay with 177 HP motor, the 190 HP motor deserves a shorter (ratio), closer (ratio) and wide (span) approach to transmission (both, manual and automatic).
With V6, they have done a great job with manual transmission. Given the combination of power, torque and transmission ratios (6MT), that car is going to be a strong car, off the line and at any legal speed. But, with automatic, Honda chose to go slightly shorter than earlier, but not enough. I would have preferred to see shorter low gears and a taller top gear. Honda went for the opposite, and as a result, people are going to feel it a little “softer” than what the spec sheet suggests.
Trim Levels
I prefer leather and moon roof. Not everybody does. I was going to suggest Accord Coupe V6 to a friend of mine, but now I can’t, given that she doesn’t like leather.
The trim levels could be better. Honda added more confusion to the matter by now calling what used to be LXV6, EXV6. If Accord must have only two trim levels for V6, then Honda should have LXV6 without moonroof and leather, while both being standard on EXV6. In four cylinder lineup, I also don’t see the point of LX-P and LX-S trims. They should have gone with simpler designations from the past that actually were easy to identify (DX, LX, EX).
These are little things that Honda misses out on.
No diesel Accord in the USA yet. That was the only way that Honda could sell cars in places like the UK. Yes Honda builds great gas engines. They just do not compare to their diesel engines. Bring on the diesel Honda's, and they may have a return customer.
There are always a few people who have their opinion about what Honda "should" do or "should" offer. A week doesn't go by that I don't hear some oddball comment or complaint that I have never heard before and will probably never hear again.
Some people think Honda should come up with some oddball model that few people will ever buy. We had a good example of that recently when Honda decided to produce V-6 sedans with six speed manual transmissions.
They have now been dropped because they didn't sell.
You have suggested trim levels that Honda wouldn't sell enough of to bother building them.
is it the chicken or the egg?
When I wanted to get mine, I had very little choice. I found 3 and they were all exactly the same (silver on black, no nav). And this was in May, not the end of the model run.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Nothing wrong with them but few people want a stick shift in ANY car anymore much less a V-6 EX Accord.
Nissan dropped them on their Maximas too for the same reason.
I know its not a big seller by any means, but some market share is better than none, isn't it? As it is, unless they change their minds, this will be my only and last accord.
Oh, and I don't even want to get into the fact that most salespeople would respond to the question for a V6 6-speed as "oh, those are tough to come by! when we get them, they go quick! we can't discount them much!" That is ... of course ... until you are trading one in. THEN its a dog.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Hehe. Isn't that always the case. It's amazing how many people buy that line from the car salesman.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
We honestly thought there would be a decent market for them so when they became available, we ordered a few. I think we had maybe four of them. They sat and sat. I think we dealer traded two of them and the other two finally went away. In a lot of cases "some" market share just isn't worth a production run. For every manual a dealer ordered, that was one automatic they couldn't order. That's how the allocation works.
I realize YOU like manuals. I do too but the vast majority of people are like my wife. She can drive a stick but she hates them for the usual reasons.
Same thing with colors. Every once in awhile, Honda will come out with a DOG of a color that almost everybody hates.
Still, there will always be that person who just has to have that color.
Honda probably won't change their minds, so what then would you buy? You wouldn't have many choices.
And, yeah, cars that don't sell well as new cars tend to do even worse as used cars..UNLESS, you find that one person!
Now, that may not sound like much, but there are folks who were clamoring for the V6 with the stick in a sedan form. These two guys I work with had their dealers order them for them since they weren't stocked. They wanted them badly enough that they sucked it up and waited for one to come in.
But think of how many people didn't want to go through the hassles of custom ordering and went elsewhere. Sure, maybe they ponied up a few bucks more for a TL, but there is also the Altima and Mazda 6 out there to snap those Accord customers.
I bet there were more takers than Honda dealers gave credit for. :mad:
I am not knocking the car. They just didn't sell!
In different parts of the country I'm sure sticks sell better. Here in Seattle we have TONS of traffic and lots of hills. Still, had they sold in any numbers nationwide, they wouldn't have been dropped.
Don't take it the wrong way BTW. I absolutely adore my S2000 and I have owned 3 different Accords with very good manual gearboxes. The V6 - stick combo is a beast (At least the last one was) yet a big turnoff was the lack of rear occupancy room. The sedan made up for that, fun without the compromises...
I am sad to see the V6 sedan version disappear since Honda builds one of thee best gearboxes I have ever driven and in V6 form i found very little reason to consider a Car like a BMW or Infiniti.
Not everyone can pony up for an Acura, and I'm sure not many want to settle for a Civic. That's all.
It was a simple business decision to drop the V-6 manual sedans. They will still build six speed coupes but even these are VERY slow sellers compared to the automatics.
At least in my neck of the woods.
You are correct, of course, that manuals in this particular class are hard to come by. I would have to switch classes, that's all. I mean, it really is SO MUCH of a compromise for me to settle for a conventional slushbox that I would make OTHER compromises. For instance, a stripper BMW or a used one.
Maybe Honda will come out with some sort of DSG by the time my lease is up in 20 months. A DSG diesel accord might be pretty sweet.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
If I could swing it, I'd go 325i or Infiniti G35...
All of this reminds me of something.
Years ago, there was a small mom and pop restaurant near where I worked. They served great food and they had a limited menu.
One of their menu items was s selection a co-worker just LOVED. Liver and Onions!
One day, they came out with a new menu and Liver and Onions had been dropped! My co-worker couldn't understand how this could possibly have happened and he complained loudly.
Well, it seems that only he and a couple of other people ever ordered that and they let him know that.
He just couldn't understand why they would do that to him!
Just another business decision.
Not a good business decision. Your co-worker probably found a restaurant that served liver and onions. My understanding is that Honda dealers have people lined up to buy their diesel vehicles when they get here. What's not to like? Honda vehicles that get an honest 30% better economy model for model. The same cannot be said for hybrids. The only way I would consider buying a Honda.
PS
I would have wanted the MDX in diesel. Except they really hosed up the looks this year.
Now, of course we're talking about trends in different areas. As you said, the sticks weren't popular in Seattle. Just like Liver and Onions wasn't popular at that particular restaurant. But in another restaurant in another town, it might be a best seller. What happens, however, if they stop producing liver because it isn't a best seller at EVERY restaurant? Alot of people lose their favorite dish. Now they gotta go eslewhere and find a new favorite dish. I find it kinda sad, personally. ;b
I'm sure its a valid business decision. I mean, I know it is, otherwise why do it. But it isn't necessarily the right decision.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
What's not to like? Oh, the lack of stations that sell diesel, at least around here anyway. The smell etc.
To each his own I suppose and I also suppose I could change my mind down the road.
Anytime you change something or drop something, you are going to make SOME people unhappy. Hopefully, the masses will be pleased.
I already have. You may not have come across reviews that are questioning about the horses, I have seen a few now. Besides, it is only logical. I saw it in RL, then MDX, to some extent on RDX and I'm prepared to see the trend continue with Accord V6.
Honda perhaps thinks like you do. And that is a problem. They need to realize (and do something about it) that quite a few people will be more impressed with other vehicles if engine power (and feel of) is their priority. It is only logical. Ever thought how BMW gets by with 230 HP/200 lb-ft engine in its 528i yet Acura has tough time convincing people with 290 HP/258 lb-ft motor in RL? Tell me about it.
You have suggested trim levels that Honda wouldn't sell enough of to bother building them.
Really? How did you figure that one out? One of the main reasons Accord Hybrid didn't work was that it topped out at $33K. The answer is simple.
Honda chose EXV6 as the base, and added the hybrid premium on top of it. Do you not realize that people would have perceived it differently if Honda had started ~2K lower starting with LXV6 trim instead? Then, they would have a choice of EXV6 (for luxury) or Hybrid (for fuel economy), for about the same price.
Even better, had Honda considered hybrid with I-4 power, and beginning with LX trim instead. I've a feeling it would have worked much better.
Now, explain to me the point of putting moon roof on "all" V6 trims. Explain to me the point of putting leather in all "V6 coupes". They have already lost a customer by doing that, one of my friends. She will not buy a car with leather for physical reasons. And there are going to be plenty of people who would rather save $2K by not being forced into luxury features. Honda didn't learn from the RL, did it?
Of course, the gearheads in the car magazines love to nitpick but these aren't the average buyer.
The Accord Hybrid you mentioned is a good example of a model people requested that didn't sell well. Now, we have people ( a few) that are appalled Honda would drop them.
I agree with you. They should heve done this with the 4 bangers in LX trim.
A cloth V-6 coupe would be a dog but you are correct, we lost A customer because they didn't want to build a car very few people would buy. Honda does build LX coupes with V-6's. Talk about a dog! In 12 years, I have never sold even one of these.
You see, not everyone is like you. You are the exception. that isn't "bad" thing but no company can please everyone.
Companies try to please the masses and in doing so they will always lose a few people along the way.
I like the whole "Package pricing" strategy Honda uses, but at some point they really are going to alienate the non-cookie cutter enthusiast.
I mean, look at Toyota. Sure they're growing, sure they're the number 1 car manufacturer in the world. But they have very little in the way of excitement. Toyota is about as unenthusiastic as you can get, this side of Kia.
That's where Honda separated themselves, not just catering to the appliance market but those looking for a bit more of a drivers car. If they're going to follow Toyota into appliance-land then they're going to lose a lot of their core enthusiasts who helped get them into the position their in today.
Think about it, had we not been buying those NSX's legends, preludes, Integras, RSX's, CRX's, S2000's and sporty Accords over the years, Honda wouldn't have the cash-ola to build said appliance cars like Camcords and Civrollas.
Still, they will never be able to please everybody.
Last time I bought an Accord I got the 4 specifically to have the stick. Looks like they'll put me in a 4 again. That's a shame.
The current Accord only has 137K on it. Maybe by the time I'm replacing it they'll change. If not maybe I'll go for a Mazda 6.
The way I see it, cutting your customer base, no matter how little, is poor forethought. It is not just a matter of losing those immediate sales, but there is a cascade effect when it comes to product sales.
How many times have you witnessed something like this: you take george and martha jones to the theatre in your car. they comment how nice it is, how roomy it is, whatever. next thing you know, the jones go and BUY one. By losing that one manual-driving customer, you might lose 3 or more automatic buyers. Know what I mean? Next thing you know, I'm driving a bmw when I take the Jones to the theatre and they fall in love with that and go buy it instead. And when 20 people over the next few years ask me for car buying advice, the Accord is farthest from my mind because they've alienated me. 1 lost sale can have larger consequences. But I'm sure you've heard that whole song and dance before.
but, anyway, I'm rambling. I'm not going to change Honda's mind, that's for sure. And, really, in the grand scheme of things, they were getting along fine without a 6-speed V6 for years and years and years, right?
I gotta wonder .... why do they continue to build 4-cyl with manual trannies? AND, what would have happened if they offered a 6-speed in a V6 car OTHER than a top-of-the-line EXL? Guess we'll never know.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
I don't know if I agree with your example or not but it probably would have been better if they had never built them at all.
Sticks simply don't sell well and that is a fact, like it or not. Honda does built 4 cyl sedans with manuals and they don't sell well either. Try buying a Camry 4 cyl with a stick. I believe they still make them but I know these were REALLY rare. They are also near impossible to sell as used cars.
Why exactly does Honda generally take a middle ground? By that I mean, most of their products are neither all-out cushy nor all-out sporty. There is a reason to it. They want to strike a balance to broaden the appeal, to a wider audience. This is not pleasing everybody, but as many as they can. And with a high volume, significant product like Accord, it becomes all the more necessary.
But there is another problem, and that is something Honda has created for itself and doesn’t seem interested in addressing. They have TSX and TL to sell. Create a sporty trim for Accord, and fewer people will find an interest in TSX, and may be even TL. It would become harder to justify paying for a $28K-$30K TSX/6MT if Honda were to create a sport tuned Accord EXLV6/6MT for about the same price. So, they ensure those options are limited to coupe-form only. And that’s the reality.
Most people, get in a car, start the engine and drive it normally. I seriously doubt if I will hear one complaint or comment about shift points or torque curves. If I do, it will be the first time in 12 years. I drove both a four and a six and they drive better than ever.
Of course, the gearheads in the car magazines love to nitpick but these aren't the average buyer.
Why did then Honda ensure that the V6 is rated to match or beat the competition? Something that differentiates Honda from most others is that it appeals to an average driver as well as gearheads with me being one of them.
This is one of the rare occasions from Honda where I think bean counter-ship shows its presence in Hondadom. If anybody from Honda is indeed reading this, I would like them to challenge me on this topic.
“268 HP” increases expectations. Sure, it is 268 HP, but when people are going to compare, they will find the Honda V6 a little softer. Thanks to poor choice of gearing, and even more so, the some of the engineering compromises in lower end to incorporate 3-mode VCM. At this point, that power output becomes more of a gimmick. And if it isn’t, why were things taken differently for Accord V6/6MT coupe? That thing is going to be mighty powerful all the way. 268 HP in the coupe will be seen differently by people compared to 268 HP in the sedan. And this will be in addition to people who will read reviews about it.
And this is not nitpicking. This is frustration, Honda is either ignorant, or is willing to give up an upper hand to competition in some areas. And neither makes sense. Unless, they are trying to move away from gearheads like me (and I don’t write articles in magazines).
A cloth V-6 coupe would be a dog but you are correct, we lost A customer because they didn't want to build a car very few people would buy.
I have heard that one before. And I wouldn’t buy a car from a company or a sales person who couldn’t care less about losing “A” customer. That “A” customer could be me, who is the reason for at least ten friends/colleagues getting Hondas from the very same dealership. And this “A” customer they just lost would have been another (and more, after her friends got to see her new Accord which won’t happen now). That’s wonderful, right?
Explain to me, why a cloth V6 coupe would be a dog? And why would Honda offer cloth on V6 sedan? I think they thought the same way with Accord Hybrid, didn’t they? I’m hoping that they don’t create the same mess when diesels roll around.
So, the dealer asks for our color preferences and we gave him all the colors in order. Green, which was down toward the bottom of the list, was what could be found at all locally.
Next time I may widen my search to include other cars.
You simply have to realize that not all people think like you do. What seems to be of utmost importance to YOU isn't at all important to MOST people. Honda does try to strike a balance and I think they do a pretty good job of that.
And, I certainly do NOT pretend to speak on behalf of Honda but I'm sure they do worry about Honda cannabalizing sales from their Acura division so they have to make wise (to them, not to you) choices.
You can't seem to understand this, but certain configurations of models simply do not sell well. I never said Honda couldn't care less about losing one customer but WHY would ANY car manufacturer build a model that would have very few takers. Don't you think they research the market? Even so, sometimes their research doesn't help. The V-6 manual EX sedans that they dropped is a good example of that.
Yes, a CLOTH V-6 EX coupe would be a very poor seller. As I said, they do make CLOTH LX V-6 coupes and I have never, once sold one nor have I had an inquiry on one.
Maybe if you had ever worked in marketing you might understand better and that is NOT a slam. I don't expect everybody to understand. Hell, I don't understand everything Honda does!
Let me ask you this. Did Honda have to beg dealers to take the 6-speeds off their hands? Are there unsold 6-speeds sitting in the parking lots of their plants? Even if the answer is yes, then they simply overestimated demand. But its not like they didn't sell ANY of them. Maybe I'm wrong, but isn't 1000 extra sales of an oddball model better than missing all of those sales completely?
WHY would ANY car manufacturer build a model that would have very few takers.
It happens ALL the time. I bet Honda sold more 6-speed sedans than some other manufacturers sold of whole model lines. Do you have access to those numbers? I'd really love to know how many 6-speed sedans they sold of each model year.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Before we narrowed it down to the Si, we considered the Nissan Altima, Honda Fit, Honda Element SC, Honda Accord, Camry, Scion Xb, and Scion Xa. No one had, or wanted to find, one with a manual.
When I was looking at Mustangs 7 years ago, I couldn't get a local dealer to get one in my color, trim, and tranny choice. Ended up buying a used one with 4800 miles (and saved big $$$).
They could make pink Civics too and a FEW people would buy them. An efficent, well run company does not make products that few people want.
In my former life I was with a MAJOR tool company. They looked at sales constantly. When the sales of a certain tool dropped below a certain level it was dropped.
Naturally, there were always a few people who couldn't understand why that decision was made. The majority never noticed and didn't care.
I can count on the fingers of one hand when I have had such a request if that.
Trucks are a different animal. These can be special ordered for specific requirements.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S