I once thought that Honda was the best. Now, after a 2000 Accord, a 2000 Acura TL, and a 2002 CR-V, all of which cost me over $ 700 each to repair faulty SRS control units. In each case, the car was about 4 years old, and less than 70,000 miles. After researching the problem, it appears that this is fairly common failure in each of the three cars. I have moved to Toyota for two of them, and will replace the CR-V soon with something other than Honda. Repair cost for such an important , yet defective safety system is just too much for me. Honda's arrogance in its refusal to accept responsibility has driven me away. You can go to the Toyota forums and have a very difficult time to find any similar problem.
My family has been through two 2000 Accord V6s, a 2000 CR-V Limited, and a 2003 Acura TL-S. Nowadays, I've lost faith in Honda, as they have no DOHC V6, still don't have a V8, and their welding their exhaust manifolds to the engine blocks on the current V6s. I'm a performance kind of guy, and Honda just keeps on killing its performance edge, only keeping with high-output overpriced four-bangers that get smoked by most anything else in their price range. Yes, they're dependable, but they're losing there customers who are into "performance". My family went with Honda earlier this decade, because their cars were more driver oriented than Toyotas. They were more fun to drive. But now, with the continuing increase in prices for their underpowered cars... my family has moved to the lower priced, torque-ier, much improved upon, US domestic brands.
Honda has to get with the program, because pretty soon their going to lose that "sales just through reputation" edge they have now that Hyundai and other brands are becoming just as dependable.
Does something have to be done with Honda's late engineering efforts? They have yet to bring a VVT V6 to market that has four cams and cam phasing on the exhaust side. Does something have to be done about adding at least one more gear to their automatic transmissions?
Honda has no premium brand as Toyota, GM and Nissan do. Acura doesn't count, since Acura products are Honda economy and family car variants. Do you agree or disagree?
Honda has yet to address the environment, since they don't have a hybrid in their lineup, and they're about ready to bring a V10 to market. Do you disagree with this, based on the fact that Honda doesn't have a mass-market V8 pickup truck?
And what about Honda's styling? Are they moving in the wrong direction, or are Honda poducts attractive as they stand?
Guess that shows how well they market hybrids.... Honda still makes the Civic hybrid. The Insight was essentially out there so they could claim the first with a hybrid prize and had a nice little run but nothing special. The Accord hybrid just plain fizzled. They just seemed to think that power was more important than mileage. Not to the hybrid buyers.
A lot of the rest of what you say is true which, as a Honda guy of many years, pains me. There used to be a lot that really distinguished Honda from the rest of the crowd. Sadly that is becoming less true year after year.
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
In 1982, I purchased an Accord, which promptly boiled fuel out of its carburator every chance it got. Honda did nothing to help.
Wrt Lemons, a reputable lawyer who helped me with one vehicle litigation told me that Honda was (alongside Mercedes) the most difficult to deal with as they simply refuse to accept any guilt (By comparison, Toyota's more flexible).
And in one city, where three dealers (Subaru, Toyota and Honda) all offer no haggle (and reasonable) pricing on their vehicles, only the Honda dealer refuses to do anything to help the customer who gets stuck with a Lemon (their rather glib answer: "Use the Oregon Lemon Law"). By comparison, the Subaru dealer down the road offers sales practices and policies similar to Saturn (3-day return provided you don't abuse/damage vehicle, etc.). That makes it mighty hard to consider Honda again, no matter how much Car and Driver and the other mags rave about them.
Honda earned enough profits all these years. Dealers earned enouch profits many years when the economy is booming.
When the economy is going such a slow pace, why can't these people come to the rescue of the customers and offer some social responsibility to their customers who are supporting these people all these years? At least why they are not showing their aggresiveness in this when compared to this.
Take for an ex. Hyundai -> their innovative promotions which is liked by entire nation for their recent promotion offer -> they are giving some kind of support and telling the customers that they are behind them. Why can't Honda do not do like this? Can't they afford this? Even toyota gives more incentives than Honda.
We all know that the homecountry of Honda do not allow any other car maker to enter into their home country and which gives total auto share to Honda (kind of monopoly there).
It is very high time to the fellow car buyers like me when buying a car from Honda... when it is not showing its loyalty to the customer...
To Honda -> Everyday is not the same day .. some day you will also see the pain of the customers.. and I hope you will come to down to the earth.
You are also in their count ...if u got the car under that price.. that does not mean u got the rock deal.... I hope you might knew that they have already increased their prices from their predecessors/competitiors above 20% and giving u the bit of discount ...LOL
Chrysler was less than two grand cheaper my friend for a similarly equipped vehicle. After resale, I spend less on the Honda than a freakin' Chrysler. A Chrysler! LOL
Customers have been setting Honda aside. Have you seen the latest financial reports? Customers have been setting all the car makers aside. If you feel like the other makers (Hyundai) are offering better incentives and deals in a tough time, then buy their vehicles. It is a buyer's market right now. But I'll tell you one thing, I like to only spend money on good products and Honda makes some of the best. I like to buy cars that stay on the road and have least likelihood of failure on the road. Typically, Honda and Toyota have fit my requirements better than anyone else. As long as they can sustain themselves through this economy without offering the consumer too many concessions, why should they?
tend not to give us much of a glimpse into their design and decision-making processes, and Honda is no exception.
When Toyota stepped in the poop early this decade with rising recalls and evidence of poor build quality, we got rare mea culpas and looks inside the Toyota production machine as they strove to fix the problem. Now they are back to aloof. Honda never left aloof.
While I think Honda makes great vehicles, and my next car will probably be a Honda, it is only because I value reliability and resale very highly in the purchase decision, enough that I will settle a little for a more mainstream car to get them. A Mini would be perfect for me, but you hear of so many mechanical problems with those that I just don't want to deal with it.
Ultimately, if Honda continues to go down the mass market mainstream road that Toyota is already too far down, they will lose their edge and then their customer base. Then they will face Buick's current predicament.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Toyota's going down a GM road. Too many models, cheaping out on materials, uninspired designs and boring driving vehicles. Did I mention a billion different options and packages making it difficult to determine if you're getting a good deal.
Honda is still the better company, in my opinion, but their cars are also starting to look somewhat cheap compared to models a few year ago. And I think they could start putting more tech into their cars at a lower price point than they have.
They sure could. Look at any aspect of the interior of any model today, and compare it to the same Honda of ten years ago. It will be cheaper and harder today. Despite that, they are still often close to best in class, which is a REALLY sad commentary on the class.
They need to get refocused on the driving experience really quickly, especially for Accord, or they will be wondering where the customers went in ten years.
As for Toyota, so many people like boring that they will probably be OK as long as they keep a VERY close eye on QC from now on. Toyota is so boring that it has kind of cornered the market, and that's a big market, despite what TV ads seem to imply. People might think they want exciting, but once they drive it they prefer boring WAY more than 50% of the time, especially if there's a cash rebate and a strong promise of safety and reliability.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Unfortunately yes. Thing is though was look at cars like the Passat or the 500/Taurus. I think those were the targets Honda was going after. Also, Toyota has the luxury of keeping the profile of the Camry right where it's at and buyers wanting more can opt for the Avalon.
First, yes the Accord is rather large now. That's in part because Honda has three sizes of car rather than two. For years they had the Civic and the Accord and that was it. The Civic is now about the size that the Accord was back in c.1985. The Accord has moved up so that it's the size of the BMW 5-series. At the small size, they now have the great Fit wagon, which is about the size of a Civic wagon from the 80s.
In terms of the Accord getting cheaper in build quality or features, I really don't agree. I have a 2002 Accord LX and a 2008 Accord EXL. The 08 Accord is quantum leap above the 02 in almost every way. Part of that, I know, is that it's an EXL rather than an LX. But there are things that are better than I don't think relate to that. For instance, the doors on the 08 slam and move with that bank vault feeling of solidity. The 02's doors seem--not cheap--but just almost light and slightly flimsy in comparison. The 02s manual transmission was the best I'd driven up to that time, but the 08s is smoother and more fun to drive.
The interior of the 08 feels close to being a "near luxury" car, whereas the 02 seems more spartan. But that is the difference between getting an LX and getting an EXL.
I've warmed up a bit to the styling of the 08, but it's still a little ugly-duckling baroque.
Overall, however, I'm pretty sure on a lot of levels the current Accord is the best ever made. For instance, the use of super high strength super high grade steel has been dramatically increased for this generation.
Yes, I totally agree with you. Along with Honda, there is VW that has some great engineering and build. Very impressive. Our family has had VW and Honda's. They are very nice solidly built cars. Also, with the Accord moving up in size, all other cars in the market right now have grown too. People are buying more larger cars than perhaps getting SUV's. I am usually the only one riding in my car and I would totally buy the Accord. The TSX, essentially the same thing, another option for me. Even, the TSX has grown in size, perhaps not as agile as the previous model.
I am currently trying move to Honda or VW product soon! I am going to drive them all, see what really appeals to me.
Does Honda sell their V8 for any other purpose? I lost interest in the Indy 500 in 1969 when they screwed over Parnelli Jones and the turbine car. It would probably beat anything running today. Kind of like the government. You want to get rid of something you don't like you regulate it our of existence.
It's not like the drivers have a choice though is it? I think Honda has an exclusive tie-in with the IRL to be the sole engine supplier through 2013.
Here's the Honda Indy V8 page:
Honda link says that they will supply engines to IRL through 2010.
Link also mentioned reliability of Honda engines.
When IRL was first formed in 90's to compete against CART, believe that Oldsmobile Aurora and Nissan engines were used. These were NOT reliable. Don't know which was better/worse - Olds or Nissan.
A car magazine (can't recall which) had an article recently that said that IRL is considering changing the engine spec for the series and that "four" cylinder was a possibility. If they go to 4, and Honda wants to be part of, they will rule again with their superior engineering.
I would look for diesel to dominate if given the chance. We know how repressive the racing world can be. They do not like change to compete with the good old boys club. Audi is dominating the world of IMSA. Of course they will run into the same kind of ignorance that has controlled Indy car racing the last 40 years.
The Audi R10 TDI — the world’s first Le Mans diesel race car — has been doing so well that new regulations have been put in place to curb its success. The American Le Mans Series has decided to allow the competing gas-powered LM P1 Lolas to drop 143 pounds of weight to make for a tighter race. The Lolas will also be granted a five-litre larger fuel tank. Audi says its engineers have calculated with computer simulation that 22 pounds at the upcoming Road America is worth at least two-tenths-of-a-second per lap. Audi said it is “deeply disappointed about the random decisions of the IMSA organization.” Nonetheless, Audi is hopefully it can continue its winning streak this weekend with the Road America race.
Racing is supposed to be about innovation. I find the whole business a big joke. Honda is just the darling of the moment. Honda builds decent engines. No way the best in the World. BEST is a moving target if innovation is allowed.
I found it very interesting that they changed the design of the new Civic mid-stream in its development, to be same-size or smaller, instead of larger as it was going to be. Of course, one of the main reasons for that about-face was weight reduction.
It's about time automakers took weight reduction seriously.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Hi, I just saw news everywhere that Honda is recalling 440000 cars for faulty airbags.This is in addition to the 330000 cars that were recalled for a potential faulty switch. This is just mindless frenzy and sensationalizing the news..First Toyota was raked over the coals.Now Honda..Will this absurdity stop?? :sick: If anything,cars I feel should be recalled for poor reliability which is much more common than these incidences of SUA or faulty switches. :confuse:
I don't really understand how recalling vehicles to fix a potential safety issue is a "mindless frenzy." It's a shame that it happened, but it's good that these vehicles will be fixed.
"Poor reliability" isn't a specific cause for recalling a vehicle. That's why it's a good idea to research a vehicle's reliability ratings, where available, before buying.
Poor reliability is a symptom of many potential underlying causes - that's like sending back food in a restaurant, giving a reason of "it doesn't taste good." Could be too much pepper, spoiled ingredients, overcooked... anything. It's hard to fix a generalized problem.
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Or perhaps the rhetorical question asks the question - where is quality. If so, one must consider how far the personal transportation vehicle has come from a carb and points. One must consider the shrinking middle class and their ability to purchase quality in the size they think they deserve or need.
Are Hyundai engineers better trained and hungrier and work even more "days per hour" as some countries who show show increased worker productivity while ever more employees are shown the door.
"Given the troubles of archrival Toyota, Honda should be cleaning up this year. It isn't working out that way. After a decade of nonstop growth in the U.S., Honda Motor fell from a 10.5 percent share in the first quarter of 2009 to 10.1 percent in the same period this year. (Rival Nissan Motor now has 9 percent, up from 7.9 percent, and Hyundai Motor is up to 4.4 percent, from 4.2 percent.) Honda "has lost its mojo with new model launches," says Jessica Caldwell, a senior analyst at car shopping site Edmunds.com."
Thank goodness Honda has never been one to increase marketshare at all costs. We see from Toyota's example just how steep those costs can be.
But Honda will have to do something about its lineup. The Insight is a bare $1500 less than the cheapest Prius and makes 10 points less MPG. They billed it as the affordable hybrid, but that $1500 margin hardly makes it stand out as the most affordable.
They need to break the 50 mpg barrier.
And the CrossTour? OMG, the CrossTour. What a waste of resources that was. Why not just build an Accord wagon with the same powertrain and trim choices as the regular Accord, and call it a day? The thing looks awful from most angles.
As for the Accord itself, it will continue to lose share in the flooded midsize sedan market. I think if you drive it you can detect a hint of what used to make the Accord great, and in that way it is a better choice than many of the other sedans out there (except the Fusion), but it is priced high against any of them you might care to compare.
I think Honda is still more of an engineer's company than the other 5 of the Big 6, but they need to translate that, which should be an advantage, into more compelling product at dealerships.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Honda's consistent quality, from their lowest end base model to their fully packaged luxury brand (Acura) deliver good quality, high reliability and very good gas mileage. Honda makes more than just automobiles but they build cars that can run practically forever and with little upkeep. Parts are cheaper than most and easier to find too. For your economic models, The Fit, Accord LX, Civic VP models fit into this. They are good restricted budget cars, providing excellent gas mileage and reliability. In the EX and EX-L trims with all the goodies, are well equipped and provide a very good ride quality all around. Leather and wood trims are nice and solid and the base model plastics and textures are very decent, though they could improve upon the base model interiors. Navigation systems, electronic seats and premium satellite radio are a few options.
Then they have their full size cars likes the CRV, Odyssey, Accord Crosstour, and Ridgeline and even the Accord. For the gas mileages vs. cost of ownership vs. initial cost, these are great cars for durability and practicality if planning to own the car for more than 5 years. The interior of the new Crosstour in its top leather and wood trim is luxurious though the size of the car is much larger than most Hondas ever built. Honda has also introduced the Acura/premium version of the Crosstour.
Now if it came to their luxury brand, Acura(Honda's American luxury brand known as Honda everywhere else) have fallen behind since the popularity of the V6 TL and even the TL-S only a few years ago. They also have the CL and TSX as well as MDX, another top urban SUV contender. However, in the sporty offering, BMW, Mercedes, Lexus(Toyota) and Infinity(Nissan) have stolen their thunder with their purist rear-wheel drive vehicles. Honda's S2000 may be coming back but doesn't come close to contending with the new Nissan 370z. I'd rate the Acura TL-S on par with the new Nissan Maxima V6 for FWD sports sedans.
However, Honda has delivered high revving engines, economical value and consistent quality and reputation. But are they the best? Not by long shot but they are not bad either. Boring but a reliable car is not a bad thing at all.
I dunno about consistent quality. My brother has an Odyssey and it's nice to drive. The transmissions can be problematic though. CR-V's are known for exploding AC compressors and differential problems, but I like them a lot better since they got the spare off the hatch. The recent brake recalls on older Odys and Elements were significant.
I don't keep up with the sedans very well and the only rap I hear about the Pilot is the gas mileage. Rumor is that the Ridgeline is going to be dropped by 2012.
I took a Fit Sport manual home overnight last Fall and it didn't wow me, but I liked it a lot better than my wife did. The dealer experience was good too.
I was really hoping for a better Insight - good co-efficient of drag in a less dorky shape with still great mileage. They missed. The CR-Z sport hybrid with the 6 speed MT could be a halo car for Honda though.
Acura is a premium brand - calling it a luxury brand may be a bit of a stretch though.
All the nitpicking aside, it still surprised me to learn that Honda's sales are down in the States.
All the nitpicking aside, it still surprised me to learn that Honda's sales are down in the States.
Have to wonder if "styling" of Accord is an issue in loss of sales. And, as previous poster mentioned, Honda probably made a mistake in styling of the Crosstour. It is a goofy looking vehicle.
Honda/Acura, per my opinion, has regressed in styling of their top line sedans, the Accord and TL. The TL has grown in length and is fat looking.
Latest issue of Road and Track has a comparo of Acura TL, BMW, Infiniti and Audi. The TL was ranked 4th with Audi winning.
I own a 2004 TL and definitely will not buy another TL unless there is a major redesign of the car and it loses some girth.
...the title should actually be "Is Honda the Best Engine Company in the World?" A motor is an electrical device. I guess "motor" would be appropriate when discussing hybrids as they use an electrical motor in addition to an internal combustion engine.
Honda/Acura, per my opinion, has regressed in styling of their top line sedans, the Accord and TL. The TL has grown in length and is fat looking.
I absolutely agree! This is what is costing Honda sales. The problem is not anything wrong with the cars mechanically. They have just become strikingly unattractive.
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
It would be too expensive to go around and change their official name from Honda Motor Company, Ltd. to Honda Engine Company, Ltd. on all their signs and stationery. :shades:
Since everyone talks about their motor vehicles, I think your definition isn't the most accepted one. A motor would include both electric and ICE devices.
Agreed, considering I have a 2008 TL and I'm so glad I got that car when I did because the size and exterior styling of the 4G TL has really turned me off.
But anyway, I think that Honda is a very nice company. I personally think they have the best material quality, fit and finish of the rest of the mainstream auto brands but I used to think their customer service was top notch, because I always had excellent treatment with both my local Acura dealerships and with ACS, that is until I saw this forum on edmunds that really makes Honda just as poor in customer service as some of the rest. Take a look and see for yourself what many personal hell Accord owners are having with their brakes!
All the nitpicking aside, it still surprised me to learn that Honda's sales are down in the States.
The Civic is a 5 year old model, the Accord is 3. The CRV and Pilot face fierce and ever-increasing competition, and neither was an inspiring redesign at the last go-round, in fact Accord wasn't either.
In the light of those observations, it's not all that surprising Honda sales are down, especially if you add in the fact Honda continues to forego factory-to-customer cash back, which is now a FLOOD from all the other major automakers, plus Hyundai/Kia.
The most remarkable incentive floated by Honda has been $220/mo for a Civic LX, $250/mo for an Accord LX, with 0 due at signing, and even then Toyota has got them WAY beat, model for comparable model, as do most of the other Big 5...
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
As an owner of 3 Accords in the past(94,99,05). I like the size of the 08+ Accords but not the lower quality interior or increase in engine noise in the 4 cyl model compare to my 05 EX 4cyl Accord. I do like the larger size of the car. I agree with you the Cross Tour is an overpriced UGLY Accord. I was also disappointed the Accord Diesel never made it to this country. I would love to have an Accord diesel wagon. I would love to see more diesel motors offered in this country besides the Germans and American companies(truck). How about Honda and Toyota make their mid size sedans look nice like the 2011 Sonata. I think Honda and Toyota need to keep an eye out for Hyundai. With that said, I would always turn to Honda and Toyota for their reliable vehicles. The interior of the 09+ TL is nice, but the exterior is too much. The MDX is the only Acura I like right now.
My brother-in-law has an 05 Odyssey EXL+Navi+DVD ent with 90K+ miles, and it still drives beautifully and problem free. My other brother-in-law used to own a 06 Sienna with 45K+ problem free miles. The Honda rode better and have a slightly better interior to my opinion.
mo·tor /ˈmoʊtər/ Show Spelled[moh-ter] Show IPA –noun 1.a comparatively small and powerful engine, esp. an internal-combustion engine in an automobile, motorboat, or the like.
A motor is anything which provides motive power, hence the name. All engines in cars are motors (except the one in the upcoming Volt), but not all motors are engines. The only reason we at Edmunds have become hung up on the difference between the two is because of the advent of hybrids and the widespread use of electric motors in cars now.
In fact, the Prius (as an example) has two motors - one is electric and one is an internal combustion engine.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Personally, I think Honda is a Toyota in waiting. I suspect they have been using the same business practices and now we're seeing more and more reports about transmissions, engines (like VCM and oil consumption), air conditioners, etc. Once our CRV got around 40K it started having lots of nickel and dime stuff (like power windows and locks failing, headlight assembly fogging up, windshield washers leaking, etc.) just like our previous Ford and GM products, only Honda charges a lot more. Unfortunately, the CRV also seems prone to big dollar weaknesses like AC compressors and rear differentials. We're going to dump ours. We've had better luck with our Ody, but I really don't understand why people pay a couple grand price premiums for Honda's - they don't seem built like the ones of a decade or more ago in my opinion at least. I think D3 has an opportunity if they can capitalize on it.
is being associated too much with Toyota and all its recalls right now, and losing out in sales as a result. Now we see another month go by in which Ford and Nissan, and now even GM (for retail sales) go shooting up, while Honda and Toyota remain dead even at a 12% gain for the year, below the industry average.
Was interested to see this article at Automotive News today: Honda feels squeezed by Koreans, Detroit 3
May 3, 2010 - 12:01 am ET
TOKYO -- Honda Motor Co., fresh off a 92 percent jump in annual operating profit, says it is feeling the pinch from Hyundai and Kia on one side and a more competitive Detroit 3 on the other.
Executive Vice President Koichi Kondo says inexpensive Korean brands are appearing increasingly on Honda's cross-shopping lists. At the same time, Honda's U.S. rivals are refocusing on small and mid-sized sedans after the slump in light-truck sales.
"Since the Lehman Brothers shock, the Big 3 have been re-emphasizing passenger cars like the Civic and Accord," Kondo said while announcing the Japanese automaker's earnings for the fiscal year that ended March 31. "Competition in that segment is really increasing."
He added: "We will have to develop better product so as not to lose."
.....So far this year, Honda has failed to capitalize on Toyota's lost U.S. market share. American Honda's share fell to 10.1 percent in the first quarter from 10.5 percent a year earlier.
While Honda-Acura lost ground, Ford Motor Co., General Motors Co. and Nissan North America took a piece of Toyota's 1.2 percentage points in lost share. Volkswagen Group gained 0.5 points.
Last month Honda launched an incentive program that lets customers lease the Accord, Civic and Insight cars and the CR-V, Pilot, Element, Odyssey and Ridgeline light trucks with no down payment or security deposit and no money due for a month. But the company has not resorted to the cut-rate financing or cash rebates rolled out by Toyota, Ford and GM.
I'm glad they are not resorting to buckets of cash on the hood like the rest of the industry, as that would be the end of the fabulous Honda resale. And I'm glad they had a 92% jump in profit, but if they don't return to their roots soon they are going to lose this battle they have going with the Koreans and the resurgence of Ford (and maybe eventually GM).
Was glancing through some old comparos at Edmunds last night, noticed one where they compared the old Integra type R (a '99 model with only 5000 miles on the clock) to the new Civic SI. There's more power at a lower price in the Civic, and the Integra was already a 5 year old model when that '99 was built, yet the editors all agreed they would much rather have the Integra than the Civic. I think the kernel of Honda's inevitable future problems lies in that statement. And I wouldn't disagree with those editors. Honda used to know how to make pure, unadulterated mechanical interfaces (otherwise known as cars! :-P) with the road. Now they are beginning to make isolation machines just like everyone else. But if you're just like everyone else, then the guy making what you make for $2000 less per unit is going to steal all your sales before too long......
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I'm thinking Honda's big problem is really just price. D3 is improving their product and Toyota is on sale. Honda wants too much premium for what they offer. But I do agree that you can't help but wonder a bit about Honda and Nissan after the Toyota fiasco.
the field would be pretty level if all the manufacturers did it. General MOTORS. Ford MOTOR Company, Bavarian MOTOR Works, Toyota MOTOR Corporation. Since many are starting to come out with electric powered vehicles, you could make the argument tha the names are becoming more appropriate.
Nissan, pshaw! These days Nissan is just a French company with an American manufacturing wing and a Japanese name. If they see any hit from the Toyota fiasco I would be surprised.
In 2006 Honda didn't seem noticeably overpriced, yet now it is a standout for overpricing. What happened in those 4 short years?
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Comments
Honda has to get with the program, because pretty soon their going to lose that "sales just through reputation" edge they have now that Hyundai and other brands are becoming just as dependable.
Does something have to be done with Honda's late engineering efforts? They have yet to bring a VVT V6 to market that has four cams and cam phasing on the exhaust side. Does something have to be done about adding at least one more gear to their automatic transmissions?
Honda has no premium brand as Toyota, GM and Nissan do. Acura doesn't count, since Acura products are Honda economy and family car variants. Do you agree or disagree?
Honda has yet to address the environment, since they don't have a hybrid in their lineup, and they're about ready to bring a V10 to market. Do you disagree with this, based on the fact that Honda doesn't have a mass-market V8 pickup truck?
And what about Honda's styling? Are they moving in the wrong direction, or are Honda poducts attractive as they stand?
A lot of the rest of what you say is true which, as a Honda guy of many years, pains me. There used to be a lot that really distinguished Honda from the rest of the crowd. Sadly that is becoming less true year after year.
Wrt Lemons, a reputable lawyer who helped me with one vehicle litigation told me that Honda was (alongside Mercedes) the most difficult to deal with as they simply refuse to accept any guilt (By comparison, Toyota's more flexible).
And in one city, where three dealers (Subaru, Toyota and Honda) all offer no haggle (and reasonable) pricing on their vehicles, only the Honda dealer refuses to do anything to help the customer who gets stuck with a Lemon (their rather glib answer: "Use the Oregon Lemon Law").
By comparison, the Subaru dealer down the road offers sales practices and policies similar to Saturn (3-day return provided you don't abuse/damage vehicle, etc.).
That makes it mighty hard to consider Honda again, no matter how much Car and Driver and the other mags rave about them.
When the economy is going such a slow pace, why can't these people come to the rescue of the customers and offer some social responsibility to their customers who are supporting these people all these years? At least why they are not showing their aggresiveness in this when compared to this.
Take for an ex. Hyundai -> their innovative promotions which is liked by entire nation for their recent promotion offer -> they are giving some kind of support and telling the customers that they are behind them.
Why can't Honda do not do like this? Can't they afford this?
Even toyota gives more incentives than Honda.
We all know that the homecountry of Honda do not allow any other car maker to enter into their home country and which gives total auto share to Honda (kind of monopoly there).
It is very high time to the fellow car buyers like me when buying a car from Honda... when it is not showing its loyalty to the customer...
To Honda -> Everyday is not the same day .. some day you will also see the pain of the customers.. and I hope you will come to down to the earth.
When Toyota stepped in the poop early this decade with rising recalls and evidence of poor build quality, we got rare mea culpas and looks inside the Toyota production machine as they strove to fix the problem. Now they are back to aloof. Honda never left aloof.
While I think Honda makes great vehicles, and my next car will probably be a Honda, it is only because I value reliability and resale very highly in the purchase decision, enough that I will settle a little for a more mainstream car to get them. A Mini would be perfect for me, but you hear of so many mechanical problems with those that I just don't want to deal with it.
Ultimately, if Honda continues to go down the mass market mainstream road that Toyota is already too far down, they will lose their edge and then their customer base. Then they will face Buick's current predicament.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Honda is still the better company, in my opinion, but their cars are also starting to look somewhat cheap compared to models a few year ago. And I think they could start putting more tech into their cars at a lower price point than they have.
They need to get refocused on the driving experience really quickly, especially for Accord, or they will be wondering where the customers went in ten years.
As for Toyota, so many people like boring that they will probably be OK as long as they keep a VERY close eye on QC from now on. Toyota is so boring that it has kind of cornered the market, and that's a big market, despite what TV ads seem to imply. People might think they want exciting, but once they drive it they prefer boring WAY more than 50% of the time, especially if there's a cash rebate and a strong promise of safety and reliability.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
The classic Accord is now the TSX.
First, yes the Accord is rather large now. That's in part because Honda has three sizes of car rather than two. For years they had the Civic and the Accord and that was it. The Civic is now about the size that the Accord was back in c.1985. The Accord has moved up so that it's the size of the BMW 5-series. At the small size, they now have the great Fit wagon, which is about the size of a Civic wagon from the 80s.
In terms of the Accord getting cheaper in build quality or features, I really don't agree. I have a 2002 Accord LX and a 2008 Accord EXL. The 08 Accord is quantum leap above the 02 in almost every way. Part of that, I know, is that it's an EXL rather than an LX. But there are things that are better than I don't think relate to that. For instance, the doors on the 08 slam and move with that bank vault feeling of solidity. The 02's doors seem--not cheap--but just almost light and slightly flimsy in comparison. The 02s manual transmission was the best I'd driven up to that time, but the 08s is smoother and more fun to drive.
The interior of the 08 feels close to being a "near luxury" car, whereas the 02 seems more spartan. But that is the difference between getting an LX and getting an EXL.
I've warmed up a bit to the styling of the 08, but it's still a little ugly-duckling baroque.
Overall, however, I'm pretty sure on a lot of levels the current Accord is the best ever made. For instance, the use of super high strength super high grade steel has been dramatically increased for this generation.
I am currently trying move to Honda or VW product soon! I am going to drive them all, see what really appeals to me.
Here's the Honda Indy V8 page:
Honda Racing
Here's the Honda Indy V8 page:
Honda link says that they will supply engines to IRL through 2010.
Link also mentioned reliability of Honda engines.
When IRL was first formed in 90's to compete against CART, believe that Oldsmobile Aurora and Nissan engines were used. These were NOT reliable. Don't know which was better/worse - Olds or Nissan.
A car magazine (can't recall which) had an article recently that said that IRL is considering changing the engine spec for the series and that "four" cylinder was a possibility. If they go to 4, and Honda wants to be part of, they will rule again with their superior engineering.
The Audi R10 TDI — the world’s first Le Mans diesel race car — has been doing so well that new regulations have been put in place to curb its success. The American Le Mans Series has decided to allow the competing gas-powered LM P1 Lolas to drop 143 pounds of weight to make for a tighter race. The Lolas will also be granted a five-litre larger fuel tank. Audi says its engineers have calculated with computer simulation that 22 pounds at the upcoming Road America is worth at least two-tenths-of-a-second per lap. Audi said it is “deeply disappointed about the random decisions of the IMSA organization.” Nonetheless, Audi is hopefully it can continue its winning streak this weekend with the Road America race.
Racing is supposed to be about innovation. I find the whole business a big joke. Honda is just the darling of the moment. Honda builds decent engines. No way the best in the World. BEST is a moving target if innovation is allowed.
New Honda President Lays Out a Few Goals (Straightline)
And Honda doesn't think gas is going to get any cheaper.
Honda Retooling Product Plan to Reduce Weight, Improve MPG
It's about time automakers took weight reduction seriously.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I just saw news everywhere that Honda is recalling 440000 cars for faulty airbags.This is in addition to the 330000 cars that were recalled for a potential faulty switch.
This is just mindless frenzy and sensationalizing the news..First Toyota was raked over the coals.Now Honda..Will this absurdity stop?? :sick:
If anything,cars I feel should be recalled for poor reliability which is much more common than these incidences of SUA or faulty switches. :confuse:
"Poor reliability" isn't a specific cause for recalling a vehicle. That's why it's a good idea to research a vehicle's reliability ratings, where available, before buying.
Poor reliability is a symptom of many potential underlying causes - that's like sending back food in a restaurant, giving a reason of "it doesn't taste good." Could be too much pepper, spoiled ingredients, overcooked... anything. It's hard to fix a generalized problem.
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Or perhaps the rhetorical question asks the question - where is quality. If so, one must consider how far the personal transportation vehicle has come from a carb and points. One must consider the shrinking middle class and their ability to purchase quality in the size they think they deserve or need.
Are Hyundai engineers better trained and hungrier and work even more "days per hour" as some countries who show show increased worker productivity while ever more employees are shown the door.
Honda is slipping into reverse (MSNBC)
But Honda will have to do something about its lineup. The Insight is a bare $1500 less than the cheapest Prius and makes 10 points less MPG. They billed it as the affordable hybrid, but that $1500 margin hardly makes it stand out as the most affordable.
They need to break the 50 mpg barrier.
And the CrossTour? OMG, the CrossTour. What a waste of resources that was. Why not just build an Accord wagon with the same powertrain and trim choices as the regular Accord, and call it a day? The thing looks awful from most angles.
As for the Accord itself, it will continue to lose share in the flooded midsize sedan market. I think if you drive it you can detect a hint of what used to make the Accord great, and in that way it is a better choice than many of the other sedans out there (except the Fusion), but it is priced high against any of them you might care to compare.
I think Honda is still more of an engineer's company than the other 5 of the Big 6, but they need to translate that, which should be an advantage, into more compelling product at dealerships.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Then they have their full size cars likes the CRV, Odyssey, Accord Crosstour, and Ridgeline and even the Accord. For the gas mileages vs. cost of ownership vs. initial cost, these are great cars for durability and practicality if planning to own the car for more than 5 years. The interior of the new Crosstour in its top leather and wood trim is luxurious though the size of the car is much larger than most Hondas ever built. Honda has also introduced the Acura/premium version of the Crosstour.
Now if it came to their luxury brand, Acura(Honda's American luxury brand known as Honda everywhere else) have fallen behind since the popularity of the V6 TL and even the TL-S only a few years ago. They also have the CL and TSX as well as MDX, another top urban SUV contender. However, in the sporty offering, BMW, Mercedes, Lexus(Toyota) and Infinity(Nissan) have stolen their thunder with their purist rear-wheel drive vehicles. Honda's S2000 may be coming back but doesn't come close to contending with the new Nissan 370z. I'd rate the Acura TL-S on par with the new Nissan Maxima V6 for FWD sports sedans.
However, Honda has delivered high revving engines, economical value and consistent quality and reputation. But are they the best? Not by long shot but they are not bad either. Boring but a reliable car is not a bad thing at all.
I don't keep up with the sedans very well and the only rap I hear about the Pilot is the gas mileage. Rumor is that the Ridgeline is going to be dropped by 2012.
I took a Fit Sport manual home overnight last Fall and it didn't wow me, but I liked it a lot better than my wife did. The dealer experience was good too.
I was really hoping for a better Insight - good co-efficient of drag in a less dorky shape with still great mileage. They missed. The CR-Z sport hybrid with the 6 speed MT could be a halo car for Honda though.
Acura is a premium brand - calling it a luxury brand may be a bit of a stretch though.
All the nitpicking aside, it still surprised me to learn that Honda's sales are down in the States.
Have to wonder if "styling" of Accord is an issue in loss of sales. And, as previous poster mentioned, Honda probably made a mistake in styling of the Crosstour. It is a goofy looking vehicle.
Honda/Acura, per my opinion, has regressed in styling of their top line sedans, the Accord and TL. The TL has grown in length and is fat looking.
Latest issue of Road and Track has a comparo of Acura TL, BMW, Infiniti and Audi. The TL was ranked 4th with Audi winning.
I own a 2004 TL and definitely will not buy another TL unless there is a major redesign of the car and it loses some girth.
I absolutely agree! This is what is costing Honda sales. The problem is not anything wrong with the cars mechanically. They have just become strikingly unattractive.
Since everyone talks about their motor vehicles, I think your definition isn't the most accepted one. A motor would include both electric and ICE devices.
But anyway, I think that Honda is a very nice company. I personally think they have the best material quality, fit and finish of the rest of the mainstream auto brands but I used to think their customer service was top notch, because I always had excellent treatment with both my local Acura dealerships and with ACS, that is until I saw this forum on edmunds that really makes Honda just as poor in customer service as some of the rest. Take a look and see for yourself what many personal hell Accord owners are having with their brakes!
http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/WebX/.f0bb55b/316
The Civic is a 5 year old model, the Accord is 3. The CRV and Pilot face fierce and ever-increasing competition, and neither was an inspiring redesign at the last go-round, in fact Accord wasn't either.
In the light of those observations, it's not all that surprising Honda sales are down, especially if you add in the fact Honda continues to forego factory-to-customer cash back, which is now a FLOOD from all the other major automakers, plus Hyundai/Kia.
The most remarkable incentive floated by Honda has been $220/mo for a Civic LX, $250/mo for an Accord LX, with 0 due at signing, and even then Toyota has got them WAY beat, model for comparable model, as do most of the other Big 5...
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
The interior of the 09+ TL is nice, but the exterior is too much. The MDX is the only Acura I like right now.
I hear NASCAR drivers and tv commentators refering to motors in their cars, not engines.
mo·tor /ˈmoʊtər/ Show Spelled[moh-ter] Show IPA
–noun
1.a comparatively small and powerful engine, esp. an internal-combustion engine in an automobile, motorboat, or the like.
A motor is anything which provides motive power, hence the name. All engines in cars are motors (except the one in the upcoming Volt), but not all motors are engines. The only reason we at Edmunds have become hung up on the difference between the two is because of the advent of hybrids and the widespread use of electric motors in cars now.
In fact, the Prius (as an example) has two motors - one is electric and one is an internal combustion engine.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Was interested to see this article at Automotive News today:
Honda feels squeezed by Koreans, Detroit 3
May 3, 2010 - 12:01 am ET
TOKYO -- Honda Motor Co., fresh off a 92 percent jump in annual operating profit, says it is feeling the pinch from Hyundai and Kia on one side and a more competitive Detroit 3 on the other.
Executive Vice President Koichi Kondo says inexpensive Korean brands are appearing increasingly on Honda's cross-shopping lists. At the same time, Honda's U.S. rivals are refocusing on small and mid-sized sedans after the slump in light-truck sales.
"Since the Lehman Brothers shock, the Big 3 have been re-emphasizing passenger cars like the Civic and Accord," Kondo said while announcing the Japanese automaker's earnings for the fiscal year that ended March 31. "Competition in that segment is really increasing."
He added: "We will have to develop better product so as not to lose."
.....So far this year, Honda has failed to capitalize on Toyota's lost U.S. market share. American Honda's share fell to 10.1 percent in the first quarter from 10.5 percent a year earlier.
While Honda-Acura lost ground, Ford Motor Co., General Motors Co. and Nissan North America took a piece of Toyota's 1.2 percentage points in lost share. Volkswagen Group gained 0.5 points.
Last month Honda launched an incentive program that lets customers lease the Accord, Civic and Insight cars and the CR-V, Pilot, Element, Odyssey and Ridgeline light trucks with no down payment or security deposit and no money due for a month. But the company has not resorted to the cut-rate financing or cash rebates rolled out by Toyota, Ford and GM.
http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20100503/RETAIL02/305039972/1- - 424
I'm glad they are not resorting to buckets of cash on the hood like the rest of the industry, as that would be the end of the fabulous Honda resale. And I'm glad they had a 92% jump in profit, but if they don't return to their roots soon they are going to lose this battle they have going with the Koreans and the resurgence of Ford (and maybe eventually GM).
Was glancing through some old comparos at Edmunds last night, noticed one where they compared the old Integra type R (a '99 model with only 5000 miles on the clock) to the new Civic SI. There's more power at a lower price in the Civic, and the Integra was already a 5 year old model when that '99 was built, yet the editors all agreed they would much rather have the Integra than the Civic. I think the kernel of Honda's inevitable future problems lies in that statement. And I wouldn't disagree with those editors. Honda used to know how to make pure, unadulterated mechanical interfaces (otherwise known as cars! :-P) with the road. Now they are beginning to make isolation machines just like everyone else. But if you're just like everyone else, then the guy making what you make for $2000 less per unit is going to steal all your sales before too long......
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Since many are starting to come out with electric powered vehicles, you could make the argument tha the names are becoming more appropriate.
In 2006 Honda didn't seem noticeably overpriced, yet now it is a standout for overpricing. What happened in those 4 short years?
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I'm hardly a Hyundai fanboy, but this is impressive for a company that once built the Excel - the second worst car to a Yugo.