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Well, no kidding! Any Asian company will exceed a European company in their design back then. Also, their engines will be more reliable. The Asians make the best cars these days, from a repair and reliability standpoint. My disappointment with Honda, and why I disagree with the premise of this thread is; Honda doesn't make a
V-8 engine, nor a rear wheel drive car. You can't be a real car company, only a niche player with holes like that in your lineup. That's fine if that is what you want to be, but "finest motor company in the world" can't be yours.
Strictly speaking they make both, but not in a format most people would ever want. Having an IRL or ALMS LMP2 car as your daily driver isn't terribly feasible.
never say never:
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Now for five years I've had only the two Hondas but have has at least one for most of the last couple of decades. Very little recall. I don't think our Accord has had a one. The first Ody had a couple. The one I remember is the unfortunate "oh this extra little jet will save your transmission down the road" one. That one made them look a bit silly but when the transmission had to be replaced they were all over it. Done in two days and didn't cost me a thing.
There is a big difference between what car companies make and what is available on dealer lots. For example, Honda does indeed make Accords with Manual transmissions. Only a small percentage, however are made that way. Good luck trying to find one on your local lot. Especially in your choice of trim and color.
It seems like this is fairly common across Honda's line. Finding a Manual Element SC or Fit or a Civic Si with Nav was going to be nearly impossible.
Finding a manual on a toyota or Nissan lot was going to be just as difficult. American car makers have almost totally dropped manual transmissions from their linup of sedans.
It boils down to this: Automakers and Dealers know they can sell a white, automatic sedan easily. If a dealer gets a manual one, it has to hope that one of the 5% who wants one will come in and buy it. If that prospective buyer wants one in a specific color, make that closer to 1%. If they also want a specific trim, make that a fraction of 1%. Dealers want cars they can turnover quickly. They don't want cars that, though they may sell, may sit on the lot for 3-6 months tying up their capital.
Adding to the mix, hot models that are sold internationally, most of the manual cars are sent to Europe where they are more desirable.
I agree, more of the big automakers should allow custom orders. I would have paid an extra $500 and waited an extra month to get exactly what I wanted.
One car maker I know will allow you to order just what you want is Mini. The problem there, and the reason I haven't bought one, is that when you start piling on the options (mostly packaged with other options you don't want), the costs add up quickly. I actually built a $40,000 Mini (nearly all options, JCW supercharger, checkered flag trim) on their website. It was really cool, but not over twice the base price cool, and definitely not loaded Nissan Z or S2000 cool.
Couple of my problems with Honda is that they are offering features that not only push the base price up but also (sometimes) reduces appeal. A good example is having moon roof standard with V6. There seem to be quite a few buyers who would rather save another grand or so and perhaps want more head room or have their own reasons. They don’t have a choice but to either get it, or look elsewhere.
“Too many trims” argument doesn’t hold a candle when we consider the volume Accord sells in, and even better, the fact that Honda offers far more varieties in smaller markets. For example, in Japan, Honda sells far fewer units of Accord yet they offer (I classify them in three categories):
Accord 20-series (two trims, for the economy oriented, with Auto or Manual transmission)
Accord 24-series (three varieties here: T, TL and S, with Auto transmission only)
Accord Euro-R (high performance, manual transmission only)
Each of these also offers plenty of factory options, including AWD. So, they have far more combinations from the factory for Accord, while in a market with over 400K unit sales, we get far few options. I don’t see why Honda couldn’t offer a Sport tuned Accord (I see a problem for going against Acura, but then, that is yet another problem within Honda).
Although, Civic EX was my next choice and brought it home, but could have been happier with the HX. The same story with Prelude, just a few months before that. "We don't sell very many of the manual transmission version, so we don't have them". In that case, I decided to wait and had to get one for me. And that they did.
Example: if back in 99 I was adamant about my color choice and absolutely wanted red the dealer would not be able to help me because Honda would not make such a vehicle. If I'd said blue or black, say, they could have placed an order and waited it out.
A friend bought a Corolla maybe a year ago and it turns out that even though stability control is listed as an available option there were zero available in NJ and surrounding area and she was told they couldn't be ordered in this region. Now THAT'S nuts. Available safety item and an entire region can't get one? That alone would have been enough to put me into a Civic.
I think a lot of consumers are into instant gratification too and they balk at a 4 or 6 week or longer wait for a new car to get delivered.
Some people really want to do the overseas delivery thing but then change their mind when they learn it takes 6 weeks to ship their new BMW or Volvo over to the states after their European vacation.
But you're right, the dealers are highly motivated to turn over the inventory sitting on the lots.
Most people get into the market when they need a car,for example theirs just died, or when there is a promotion or program that piques their interest. Of course,you have to buy from stock during the program period to get the deal.
I'm also realistic enough to know that if the difference between what the dealer has in inventory or can easily get and exactly what I want is small I don't mind buying from inventory. As long as I'm not looking at a teal car (what was up with that?) or some such thing I'll be OK.
But at the same time, I do think it is possible to have equal, if not fewer, unique combinations while offering a greater variety. It won't please all, but certainly could please a few more.
The US gets a special supersized Accord for the supersized American.
American Accord is also sold in...
-Australia
-Japan (as Inspire)
-Most of Asia (India, Thailand, Middle East...)
The Japanese Accord is sold in...
-Europe
-Australia (as Euro Accord)
-North America (as TSX, of course)
They can support those markets through the margins. Some smaller market prices are just staggering, even if adjusted for taxes (in many places quoted price has to include sales tax/VAT). Even Canada has many vehicles priced 20-30% higher, or more.
American consumer demands mostly price, convenience, and size. Option choices, or interior material quality is really secondary. It's sad, but that's one of the reasons we get our cars for less here - much less.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
If you had limited shelf space and an inventory budget, wouldn't you try to stock the items that the majority of people want or would you mix in some oddball stuff that few people have any interest in?
Civic HX's came out in 1996 and they finally dropped them in (I think) 2002. I am in the highest volume honda dealer in nine states and during that time I can count the HX's I sold on one hand. They simply didn't sell.
For one thing, they didn't have air conditioning and by the time A/C was installed, they were almost as much money as an EX.
As used cars now, they are a tough sell.
The dealers don't make the decisions, the car companies do! They aren't going to shut down a production line to build some oddball car the only a handful of people are going to want!
Then the dealer is stuck with an unsalable car they can't sell!
How are they doing on your side of the country?
That said, it is also important to realize that one-size fits all approach is wrong. If you don’t stock/offer something, you can’t complain about not being able to sell it. Do you really think that if Honda were to sell an Accord with sport trim it won’t sell? Since Honda doesn’t do it, then there must be no market for it, right?
A/C should have been standard on HX. There in lies the other problem... if Honda wants to sell something, they need to look at the market, not just what they think makes sense. Besides, HX was also coupe-only. Why didn't Honda make a sedan instead? Wrong priorities.
We did stock HX Civics! Nobody wanted them! They sat and sat, until the right customer came along which wasn't often. a lot of the smaller stores wouldn't even order any for that reason! Is that so hard to understand??
I nevr said there was "NO" market for the oddball cars you seem to favor, just a VERY SMALL market!
Honda tries new models all of the time. some are hits and others are duds. No comapany can afford too many duds.
" AC should have been standard"...I agree except then the car is priced the same as an LX which had more features. yes, the HX got a bit better gas mileage but few people cared. " Why didn't Honda make a sedan?"
Why? so they could have had one more HX that nobody wanted?
It's just BUSINESS, but I don't think you understand that!
I have a 2003 EX sedan (four cylinder), and the new car seems much bigger. Maybe it's the styling. The front seems much more massive.
Accord Hybrid was a good concept, just poor execution. Honda now has a tendency to push for features that add to the cost and complexity that most people seem to be fine without. Do you really think Accord V6 NEEDS moon roof?
If I could interject.
If a car doesn't sell well, it doesn't have any strong points.
The marketplace is a pretty clear judge of what works and what doesn't.
A motor company can either throw good money after bad,or admit their mistake and move on. clearly, Honda chose the latter.
You are looking at this from the viewpoint of a single consumer who wants a specific car.
Honda has to look at this from the viewpoint of a company trying to get the most sales it can from the most people it can.
Honda and its dealers know exactly what sells and what doesn't.
They are probably the best(maybe BMW is better) at figuring that out.
Accord Hybrid was a good concept, just poor execution. Honda now has a tendency to push for features that add to the cost and complexity that most people seem to be fine without. Do you really think Accord V6 NEEDS moon roof?
Yes, it actually does.
Studies have shown that people who are willing to buy a bigger engined car typically want more luxury features in that car.
I don't think you or Honda does either. Just came from a test drive at Toyota. They will order a new Tundra PU anyway I like it. Takes 30-60 days for delivery. Unless they find what I want in the region. I guess they are more advanced in the manufacturing business than Honda...
The Tundra is aimed at domestic truck buyers who are used to special ordering vehicles.
It is actually more cost effective to do what Honda and Toyota car does and only offer limited variants.
I don't think any car NEEDS a moonroof!
I have one and rarely bother opening it.
The masses expect cars like the Accord V-6 top have one.
I understand that but I can't get him to realize why business decisions have to be made that won't please everyone.
This is a HUGE change for them and it may be a change they regret down the road.
Believe me, it won't be any worse than the job Honda has done marketing RL, RDX, Accord Hybrid and CSX (in Canada). With a little experience, I might actually do better.
There must be a reason why sales people generally hate me. :shades:
Every year, I would get at least one person such as yourself who would buttonhole me and go on and on about things Honda "should" do, models they "should" produce etc.
" You would THINK Honda would....." etc.
People thought Honda "should" produce Accord Hybrids and they did! They didn't sell well.
And, you keep talking about Acura. I realize Acura is really Honda but I know nothing about them. It sounds like they built some cars that haven't done well.
OK, I understand now...Honda should produce WHATEVER a customer asks for no matter how strange that model or color may be?
I know that neither of you can understand that most people don't want oddball cars!
Something like this, only in Black
The thing looked fantastic, so much so that I actually think it is one of the best looking cars in the segment now (GS, E-class, 5-series) and I would seriously consider it if I were buying. Even moreso than the TL...
Flame on
Most people aren't that picky about features they don't care about, and would rather have their car when they purchase it instead of waiting around 3-4 months for it to show up.
Most people aren't that picky and the car makers build cars to please the masses.
Some people here just can't seem to understand that the oddball car they think they have to have is a car that few people want. They can't believe they are the rare exception.
They made Inca Gold Civics in 2001. The worst color ever! We had one on our lot for almost a year before it FINALLY sold.
Two years later, I had an upset customer who just couldn't understand why Honda didn't make that "pretty gold color" anymore!
Honda does market differently but sometimes I find it's not quite as different as you might first expect.
Since Toyota seems to be the one you normally compare to we'll stay with that.
Now if I want to buy a Camry, there will be package X which can't be ordered without package Y which rules out option C on to whatever end you might want to bring it to. By comparison Honda will asky if you want an LX or an EX which are what they are.
Now in reality, Toyota only makes so many of package X and won't let you build on your own for most models. A friend of mine tried to get a Corolla with stability control last year. In theory it was perfectly doable. In practice it could not be done. So in reality the practices are a lot closer with Toyota throwing a lot more confusing sounding packages to blur the price.
Yes, I'd still like my V6 Accord sedan with a stick but I'm not too worried about it.
Years ago, Honda's motto was "We keep it simple".
They have gotten away from that quite a bit but they still try and in doing so, they can't please everybody.
Accord stick