Are Toyota's recent quality problems just a glitch?

nippononly

I thought I would take a glance in here just to see what it was all about, and what to my wondering eyes should appear, but a thread where only one post in ten seems to be on-topic! :-P

Some of Toyota's much-lauded recent quality problems are not the kind that make me think they will ever influence sales much. They recalled a half million Tacomas and 4Runners that were already more than seven years old at the time of the recall (and some as old as 11 or 12 years of age), for a tie rod that may or may not have caused passengers in one vehicle in Japan to be injured. That is going beyond the pale, IMO. But it adds to their overall recall numbers, which make it appear that there are large systemic problems. A false conclusion, or at least one that cannot be drawn from the numbers alone.

Now the sludging thing gave me pause a few years back. It obviously hasn't hurt sales at all, which is probably because there are such an overwhelmingly large number of satisfied Sienna and Camry owners. I do wonder what the cause there was. If it was a design flaw, which I think it probably was because it was over several engines and multiple years, I would hope Toyota is once burned and twice shy. Toyota is very good at learning from its mistakes. Maybe better in that regard than any other carmaker in the world, the Chinese notwithstanding.

And of course, the vast majority of owners of cars with the sludge-recalled engines never had any problem at all, so the article recently published talking about potential damages for Toyota into the billions is somewhat misleading, as Toyota will not pay out on most of those engines.

For companies as large as GM and Toyota, it can be quite difficult to catch potential systemic problems with their vehicles quickly. It's a big world, it's an awful lot of vehicles going out the door each year, and feedback can only come from dealer service centers, which are not owned by the manufacturers.

I believe that recent quality problems will be a one-time spike on the chart at Toyota, but it will never again have the "spotless" rep that the Edmunds editor is quoted as mentioning. However, I think it will maintain a rep significantly better than its competition, enough to hang onto its edge and maintain steady sales growth.

lokki

However, there's also "Perceived Quality" and the interior on the 2007 Camry sure did look cheap when I saw it at the Autoshow last weekend. The car rags have also been commenting on it.

Terrycloth seats and a generally low-rental look. Honda's Accord seemed much nicer inside for the same bucks.

The Korean's also looked nice at a glance, although when you started to look around more carefully things like the Hyundai and Kia's cheap plastic interior doorhandles made me hesitate. They felt like you could snap them between your thumb and fingers. All the Japanese cars used metal door handles.

carguy58

the 07 Camry interior is cheap but I thought it looked good. The 02-06 Camry interior was just dull and boring to me. I don;t know maybe its just my opinion.

w9cw

Not all Japanese cars use metal inside door handles . . . rather, some are "chromed plated" plastic, but still plastic.

bottgers

....has plastic door handles, but that doesn't mean it's inferior to Korean cars.

210delray

I doubt that any current car has metal inside door handles.

You could check with a magnet -- certainly no one's going to use real aluminum, only steel at most.

What gets me are today's large chrome-plated plastic grilles (e.g, Ford's new 3-blade "razors" and the VW/Audi "big mouths"). How are those going to look in a few years after being sandblasted by road grit?

lokki

It wasn't plastic vs metal per se, it was the fact that you could break them between between your thumb and fingers.

Thin plastic....was the problem.

Having lived in the great north for some years, i have experience with exterior plastic door handles that would snap off in your hand at 20 below.... leaving you standing in the snow with an incredulous look on your face and bad words forming in your chest.

Still having the interior door handle break off in your hand is better - at least you'd be sitting down when it happened

imidazol97

The 03 Buick has what feel and sound like metal. Probably what was called pot metal. It doesn't react with a magnet. The handles on my 98 leSabre also are metal but don't react with a magnet.

geo9

It seems toyota has kept the 4.7s cold start knock
issue pretty quiet. Now this thread mentions the new
07 5.7 engine is having cold start knock issues.....

This is a link to watch:
http://www.tundrasolutions.com/forums/tundra/89753-do-2007s-knock-cold-weather-s- tartup/

Seems GM isn't the only one with this problem. But yet
again which one gets plastered all over the media??????

rockylee

Good find. I have gotten ripped by the Toyota loyalist for GM's having piston slap issues. I've never owned a GM, car with this problem or know anyone who has ever had this problem.

Rocky

geo9

Well Rock.....To be honest and living waaay up here in
snow and ice land where below 0 cold start knock is a
FACT of life with ANY brand vehicle.
Ya figure the oil is like mud a 0 degrees and sure your
gonna have a bit of engine knock till the oil get pumped
thru...................
Why do ya think 5w-30 oil is the norm in most new vehicles?

But yet again GM gets the "it knocks because its a piece of
junk" title from the media and the brand x faithful......
Then you see it splashed all over the media . But
when its the "godsend to the automotive buyer" brand T
or H its normal and ok or its just ignored...........

But its best to just buy what you like !!!!

rockylee

Agree.

Rocky

lemko

Door handles in my girlfriend's LaCrosse are definately metal.

lemko

I see a lot of the newer cars are going to a thinner oil - 5W20.

lemko

Shoot, if Toyotas and Hondas blew up in front of schools and killed children, the media would proclaim, "Toyota and Honda is Helping Curb Population Growth!" If a Chevy truck accidentally ran over a cat, the media would scream, "GM IS CRUEL TO ANIMALS!"

rockylee

ROTFFLMAO.....That's just plain wrong lemko. :P

Rocky

imidazol97

One point for today's funniest!

rockylee

geo9, did his homework and passed with flying colors. I guess this new discovery is just a glitch also

Rocky

rorr

"But yet again GM gets the "it knocks because its a piece of junk" title from the media...."

:confuse:

I haven't seen anything in the media about GM cold start knock issues? Is it a problem? Is it widespread? From your post, it would appear that there was a major media blitz regarding GM cold start issues......any links?

Yes, I'm sure there ARE posters who will take any and every opportunity to 'knock' (sorry, couldn't resist) GM. But it appears from where I sit that there are also a group of folks who just LOVE perusing Toyota forums seeking out any and every report of ANYTHING which could be a problem....not that I'm pointing any fingers.....

bigo08

ROFL...thats hilarious

imidazol97

Lemko's post is sad but true. In this area if there was a GM flaw it made the local talking heads 3 days (and nights) in a row. If it was a foreign flaw or recall, it won't make or it gets mentioned right after a commercial so noone's watching!

The Toyota problems have hit enough people they're getting some press time.

geo9

Thats a good one !!!!!!!!!!!

geo9

Where have you been???????????

It floors me you haven't heard of the dreaded GM
CSK issue ! Its been plastered all over the net as well as
GM hate sites, lemon aid, even NHTSA...............
Since about 99 or so !!!

Not much posted on it for the last couple year model run
GM v-8s. GM must of changed something ie: internal
tolerances, assembly method, longer piston skirts,
something about teflon coating the pistons yada, yada !

It floored me how many complaints that were posted over
at toyota solutions.com and another toy site on the 4.7
CSK problem and how many folks actually had it and
were posting about it...................

But I will say again.....Living in the great frozen
north.....ALL motors sounded like dice rattling in a
beer can on initial 0 degree cold starts.
No matter if it was my trucks, cadillac, or my old
winter rat beater car (Ford!)..............

It just seemed the GM CSK issue was ALL over the media!
toyotas CSK was hush, hush !!!!!!!!!!

210delray

Media conspiracy theories...yawn.

Don't you think the home team papers (Detroit) would be all over any Toyota woes like flies on horse dung?

rockylee

Nope because those papers might as well be HQ in San Francisco. They seem to root for Honyota way to much. They are getting better as occassionally they make positive remarks about the home team :sick:

Rocky

rockylee

imidazol97,

have you read the "Lost? Ask a Host for Help!" forum today ????? Notice a trend or is it just me?-grin :P

Rocky

PF_Flyer

Let's keep this topic as a discussion about Toyota and resist the urge to turn this into yet another instance of "domestics vs imports".

rorr

"It floors me you haven't heard of the dreaded GM
CSK issue !"

I didn't say that I haven't heard of it.....just that I haven't heard of it IN THE MEDIA.

"Its been plastered all over the net as well as
GM hate sites, lemon aid, even NHTSA..............."

Uh, these are just folks posting their personal opinions and bias (kinda like in here). These examples AREN'T 'the media'. You seem to be insinuating (again) a media conspiracy in favor of Toyota since 'they' aren't reporting CSK issues on the Toyotas (or that they aren't as diabolical about it as 'they' are with regards to GM CSK issues).

Point out a MEDIA instance of 'them' screwing GM while downplaying Toyota over CSK issues. And then you might have a case.

rorr

"They are getting better as occassionally they make positive remarks about the home team"

Maybe that's because the home team is getting better and occassionally DESERVING positive remarks?

BTW - shouldn't that be home teamS (plural)?

geo9

My post was not meant to be a SLAM on you!!!!!!!!!!

Its just funny hearing somebody has not heard of the dreaded
GM CSK issues...................
Esp. a poster here at edmunds !!!

Note: detnews.com at times has good supporting news about
the "home teams" but still like other media reports little
when the "away players" have problems!!!!!!!!!

toyotadad

I'm getting old, but if my memory serves me right, my last full-load Chev crewcab dually ('96), which was exclusively dedicated to towing, had to have the engine replaced at 6,000 miles due to cold-weather startup noise and piston slap on long uphill pulls. I replaced it with a Ford F-350 diesel dually, which nearly mowed down a group of people in a crosswalk in Las Vegas with about 9,000 miles on it when the clutch slave cylinder failed and the clutch engaged. Next was a Dodge. Had that less than a year because it spent more time in the shop for admittedly minor quality issues such as loose door panels, rattles, ad naseum. The best truck I've ever owned, in terms on quality and everyday trouble-free service is my '06 Tacoma double-cab PreRunner -- which, I'm happy to say, is build in the U.S.

dreasdad

you have got to be kidding me!!!!

What, do you think they hired the same guys that did the cover up at Roswell? Did you read the post at the link?

dtownfb

Never heard of the GM Cold Start Knocking problem. Been a regular poster for 5-6 years.

geo9

Thats 2 people!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You should check out the GM truck forums here!
Thousands of posts !!!!!!!!!!!!!
Not to mention ANY GM truck forum !

But like I say besides the posts on a few toyota
truck forums you would never know it...........

nippononly

never heard of the GM cold start knock problem, UNLESS that is the same thing as the piston slap problem, which I recall reading about once or twice in Automotive News. There was also one regular at Edmunds a while back that had the piston slap problem in his own truck and lamented it a few times as I recall.

The piston slap thing is in the beginnings of the class action lawsuit stage, IIRC. The Toyota sludge thing is already in the final leg of that stage. All car companies that allow systemic problems like those to get to the litigation stage are risking great damage to themselves IMO.

rorr

"You should check out the GM truck forums here!
Thousands of posts !!!!!!!!!!!!!
Not to mention ANY GM truck forum ! "

Why? I have no burning desire to troll around looking for GM truck problems to further some personal agenda.

So, why are you always in the Toyota truck forums.....?

nippononly

they have announced that the next North American plant will be in Mississippi, Tupelo to be specific, and will begin building the next-gen Highlander in early 2009. Anyone getting chills thinking about how good (or bad) the QC will be at that plant? We have yet to see how the new San Antonio plant will do in its first full year, but I hope it is much better than the new Nissan truck plant. Whoa - isn't the new plant building Titans and Armadas located in Mississippi? Uh-oh.

These are the first and second big tests of Toyota's re-commitment to quality after the huge recalls and public apologies of last year. San Antonio and Tupelo will demonstrate whether the "new commitment to quality assurance" is more than just hype.

fezo

That's pretty curious because only a couple of years ago Toyota pretty much said they were shying away from the deep South specifically due to the availability of the sort of work force they were looking for. They basically didn't like the level of education. Maybe they decided that wasn't a winning philosophy. I mean the Nissan Titan plant is indeed a quality hole but the Honda plant in Alabama seems to do just fine.

dtownfb

Agree!!! I'm in the market for a fuel efficient vehicle not a pickup truck. I have no reason to wander to the GM pickup forums. I do think the new pickups are nice, no better then Ford. I like the new Tundra but I think the Ford and GM truck buyers are too loyal to buy a Toyota. Dodge on the hand.....

dtownfb

BMW and Mercedes are doing pretty well in the South.... One thing I have learned is people can learn to do about anything if they have the desire. Prospect of a decent paying will motivate people to learn.

210delray

Plus Toyota has undoubtedly learned from Nissan's mistakes and will make sure the new workers are properly trained.

Even if they had bad schooling, good training can overcome this. As the old saw goes, "this ain't rocket science."

dtownfb

You almost got me to bite geo9......

fezo

Actually the Mercedes plant is an example that maybe you don't want to be bringing up. The original M calss trucks that came out of there were a pretty bad experience and the plant was a good chunk of the problem. They seem to have improved.

I won't argue against the BMW one. I think this does prove that the planning and execution are they key vs. geography. I really doubt that the folks putting Hondas together in Alabama (BTW, I just got an 04 Ody from that plant) are any brighter than the ones putting together Titans. They were just trained better.

rockylee

BTW - shouldn't that be home teamS (plural)? BTW - shouldn't that be home teamS (plural)?

Not in my vocabulary because GM, is my only home team :P

Rocky

geo9

http://www.caradvice.com.au/1699/toyota-land-cruiser-and-lexus-lx470-front-disc-- brake-rotor-bolt-recall/

imidazol97

later parts of the link where posters talk about how HOToy owners, and I guess others, overlook the flaws of their cars. Sort of like religions in my opinion.

That's what I've been saying all along. They have service departments. Now we know it's to handle the sludge and engine/transmission problem and TSBs. The Honda dealers also have the engine recall on several models across their line. That's sort of like the massive transmission problems of the past and not so far past they've had.

210delray

I don't overlook the flaws in my Toyotas (and one Nissan) because they don't have any!

This again is much ado about nothing. Sludge -- give me a break, that was 5 or more years ago, and only some had the problem. I had one of the supposedly affected cars and guess what -- no sludge after 111K satisfied miles. (But then again I was dutiful in changing the oil regularly.)

No "religion" here -- I just go with what works for me. I have no reason to change brands at this time.

BTW, I rented a 2007 Pontiac G6 V6 sedan as a rental last week -- drove it 1600 miles in the desert southwest. Decent car overall, GM got the basics right, but the details let me down. I prefer my Camrys.

imidazol97

He doth protest too greatly.

grbeck

I'll introduce you to my wife's second cousin, who just sold a major independent repair shop in the Baltimore-D.C. suburbs. He had been in the automotive repair business for over 25 years.

His verdict on which cars are the most reliable? Toyota and Honda, hands down. And HE drives a domestic full-size pickup truck, so he is hardly an import booster.

And, for the record, he views GM as the best of the domestics (with Ford close behind, but the crappy 3.8 V-6 pulls Ford down), and says that GM cars usually aren't bad from the reliability standpoint...they are just still below the best.

Now, just don't ask for his opinion on Chrysler products...

210delray

Very interesting. I'm so glad my former '90 Sable had the "Vulcan" 3.0 V6. The salesman had almost talked us into the 3.8 V6. As I've said before in these forums, that Sable gave me lots of problems after about the 65K mile mark, but I had absolutely NO engine troubles. Don't think the 3.8 would have been so problem-free!

Oooh, and I see a couple of recent posts have been deleted -- must have gone "over the line."