Are Toyota's recent quality problems just a glitch?

oldguy70

I like to look at both sides of any issue before taking any position.
I think the Tundra camshaft issue is one where the jury is still out, therefore a middle road view is logical.
My advice would be not to plan any celebrations yet.

First, the bad news.
Apparently there's a problem with the Tundra 5.7 L camshafts. At the moment, it's apparently limited in scope, and said to be a supplier error.
Also, the Detroit Newspapers are leading the parade in reporting the issue. (Do we sense a little home grown gloating in that??)
As well, there have been reports of some suspension glitches with the new Tundra.
Plus, the assembly plant where Tundras are born was delayed in its startup.

Now the good news.
Toyota has been up front in keeping consumers informed about these issues. In spite of sentiments to the contrary It appears Toyota is being just a little more forthright about its headaches than the competition has been in the past. That shows they are at least prepared to stand behind their products.
Also, the camshaft issue will be resolved one way or the other. It appears there won't be any hesitation on that score.
It must not be forgotten that this new truck is a first year model. What automaker can boast that any of their first year models have been completely trouble free?

At the end of the day, no one can say the Tundra is a failure--certainly not yet by any means.
The story is still unfolding, and I believe it's way too soon to make any judgements.

imidazol97

>Now the good news.
>Toyota has been up front in keeping consumers informed about these issues.

Do you mean compared to the sludge problems? Or compared to the transmission/flare/shifting problems that have permeated the Camry/Avalon/ES model?

>In spite of sentiments to the contrary It appears Toyota is being just a little more forthright about its headaches than the competition has been in the past.

Do you mean compared to the sludge problems? Or compared to the transmission/flare/shifting problems that have permeated the Camry/Avalon/ES model?

Or do you mean the snap-ring problem, which I still suspect was meant to defuse the shift problems early on.

>That shows they are at least prepared to stand behind their products.

You mean all the people in the discussions with shift problems have had their problems fixed rather than being told they need to adjust to the car or vice-versa or the dealer can't duplicate any problem?

>It must not be forgotten that this new truck is a first year model. What automaker can boast that any of their first year models have been completely trouble free?

But it's a Toyota. They are perfect and make no mistakes.

It all goes back to the media handling of the issues. Will they be handled as they would be for GM or Ford problems? I don't think so.

Even the post you just made sounded more like a Toyota PR person couching the facts.

oldguy70

Wow, the knives are out with a vengeance!!
I chose the middle road, and I stand by that position.
Long ago I learned there are few absolutes in this world--here's one:--"Closed minds remain closed no matter what the evidence".
I respect your opinion--but I prefer keeping an open mind. Sorry, but platitudes and emotional rhetoric won't change it.
I believe it's way premature to come down on either side of the issue just yet--in spite of some opinions to the contrary.

imidazol97

Don't see any knives out. But your presentation was biased toward the view that I stated in the previous post. It's the nuances in the word choices that make the difference. And that indicates the problem that I stated.

Having watched for years as media treated foreign problems with kid gloves and US brands' problems with curled lips I agree that "closed minds remain closed."

We disagree like you say. The future will tell, but past history indicates it will be mitigated by the language chosen to present the problems in many media's and people's description of the problems.

oldguy70

I don't pay too much attention to "nuances" or "word choices", and I certainly don't make decisions based on what I think is "indicated" by media or individuals.
Others are certainly free to make conclusions that sort of hyperbole, often used by politicians, the media, and others who choose to interpret the truth as they wish.
"Facts", and only "facts" are what are important as far as I'm concerned.
I've been following some discussions on this site, participated in a few, and I will say most of what I see amounts to not much more than opinion being presented as fact.
The Tundra issues, the sludge issues, the transmission issues, and whatever else you mention don't add up to the kinds of doomsday condemnations which seem to frequently be levied at Toyota.
I prefer to wait and see--and look at facts. So far I've seen very few.

gagrice

"Facts", and only "facts" are what are important as far as I'm concerned

Is this Fact or Fiction?

TOKYO — A Toyota Motor Corp. vice president Thursday denied allegations that the automaker left unattended a defect in a sport utility vehicle model for eight years until it caused an accident in 2004, but offered an apology for causing "concerns" among its customers.

I deeply apologize for the concerns we caused our customers and for the delayed explanations on the issue," Masatami Takimoto told reporters after submitting a report on the defect in Toyota Hilux Surf sport utility vehicles to the transport ministry.

http://www.japantoday.com/jp/news/379358

gagrice

Toyota has been up front in keeping consumers informed

You mean like this issue?

A dangerous sludge buildup can destroy an engine in a potential 3.3 million late model Toyota Camrys and Siennas. More than 3,000 owners of certain 1996-2001 models have complained about the problem to Toyota who has refused to cover it under the five- year/60,000 powertrain warranty. Toyota claims the problems lies in the owner's lack of proper maintenance. Just recently Toyota changed the policy and has sent letters of warning and offers to fix the vehicles for Toyota owners who can show their receipts that indicate they have properly maintained their vehicles.

fezo

Well, in a 10K period I had more problems with a Ford Windstall than in all those Toyotas COMBINED and Ford treated me like a leper, only making one concession after they got ratted out by the media on their head gaskets so they are on my do not touch list.

No problem with Toyota so I can't comment on them. Can only comment on Honda's handling of problems where the problem was admitted up front and repaired at no cost.

Feel free to keep fighting. I just happened in here.

imidazol97

The local car expert says there are hot spots in the heads on the motors which deteriorates the oil as it flows through due to the high temp. The longer the oil is in the car the more it deteriorates.

The owners with motors that blew due to sludging were treated somewhat the same as the current Camry problems with transmissions and engineering.

stever

Toyota didn't handle the sludge problem very well and suffered a lot of bad press, at least from the percentage of people who follow the forums.

Honda, on the other hand, has impressed me with their handing of CR-V AC Compressor Issues. I don't remember people in Vans being all that happy with their treatment when their Odyssey transmissions failed, but it's been a long time since I've followed that issue.

oldguy70

Cherry picking these "incriminating" articles doesn't cut it folks. (How many years ago were they published?)
Anyone can write one, and it's easy to make any automaker look really bad by cherry picking uncomplimentary news about any one of them.
By the same token, I suppose if one was as committed to "authenticating" their contentions as you seem to be, they could post any amount of contradictory "evidence" which would nullify your position in very short order.
You have failed miserably in my opinion to justify anything other than a middle ground position.
Sorry.

imidazol97

Honda appears to have been much more forthcoming about their transmissions. They extended the warranty on autos to 100K (a pittance in these days of 200K autos) and they publicly modified their more recent engineering problem with a second gear needing lube. But I'd have preferred a redesign of the things. Who wants a transmission that goes out at 40K, 75K and then 105K right out of the extended warranty they offered. But the reports of the few with multiple failures are much fewer than it could be.

Toyota seems to have turned into a pillar of salt in admitting and fixing their shortcomings in re sludge and transmission problems.

oldguy70

Look guys, I don't want to get into a Mexican Standoff with any of you over such trivia as "selected prose" to belabor moot points like who does/doesn't like Toyota.
It doesn't matter to me much which badge anyone likes.
All I ask is try to be open minded--anyone can find something wrong with any one of them. (You want bad news about, say, Ford, I can give you several pages worth)
I just get a little vocal when I see how some are so anti whoever that they go to these extremes to present a case.
Just try to keep the mind open.
Discussions are one thing. Incessant driving home one's personal preference with hyperbole is another.

gagrice

Discussions are one thing. Incessant driving home one's personal preference with hyperbole is another.

I agree.

When you try to paint Toyota as a wonderful company that is forthright admitting their problems, I feel compelled to show facts that contradict that position. Toyota has not always been forthright and honest with the consumers. Your very biased posts are trying to convince us they are something they are not.

The thread is here to discuss TOYOTA'S quality problems and what affect it will have on them. Your opinions are as far from middle ground, as mine.

imidazol97

>Your opinions are as far from middle ground, as mine.

Good point. That's what I was trying to say, tactfully. But he doesn't understand that.

imidazol97

>Just try to keep the mind open.

Amen on that. Your points were biased.

>Discussions are one thing. Incessant driving home one's personal preference with hyperbole is another.

If you don't like my posts just scroll over them. I said in earlier post we disagree. End of discussion.

kdhspyder

According to Toyota this is what has occured. The manufacturer of the camshaft created a bad batch of metal. [ Having been in the steel business for 25 yrs - it happens frequently ]. It was thought that the parts made from the bad steel were all caught and returned/destroyed/remelted.

Apparently 20 or 30 pieces did not get caught and were included in fabrication.

Take it as you wish but if it's like the snap ring issue on the 2007 Camry's - also a mismanufacturing issue - the problem apparently has been surrounded. Hopefully the owners involved are not greatly inconvenienced. If they are treated like the Camry owners in the prior case, this may be an opportunity to turn dissatisfaction into a positive experience. A lot has been learned it seems from the Ford/Firestone mess and the sludge issue. Hop onto the problem right away and make it go away.

For those hoping/wishing for horrible things to happen to Toyota .....Enjoy. :shades:

imidazol97

We now have the salesman's spin on the issue. All sides covered.

oldguy70

Biased posts?????
How can anyone qualify a "wait and see" advocacy as "biased??
Biased--perhaps only in terms of being against Kangaroo Justice!!
All I'm saying is that the jury is still out.
It's too early to act as judge and jury--unless of course there's another agenda I'm not aware of.
I'm not taking sides, and I've made that very clear several times.
If this isn't germaine to the subject, why not??
Somehow, I got the impression this topic was open to all sides.
Is there something you're not telling me?
Is there an agenda here that I'm not aware of--like "lets tell the world they should'nt buy Toyota whether it's true or not"?

kdhspyder

The world has changed and progressed since your prior references. The sludge issue may have been a design issue complicated with a maintenance issue with both parties being at fault. [Thus the settlement without fault being found ] The Hilux problem overseas was also a 90's issue.

This is all different now since Ford/Firestone. The lawyers and politician and product liability insurers don't allow this stuff to go on now.

kdhspyder

Don't get too excited. You've run into a couple of the posters here who pray most fervently everyday for the immediate demise of Toyota.

These 20 camshaft problems will be enough to make their entire month here enjoyable.

kdhspyder

We now have the salesman's spin on the issue. All sides covered.

So... it is what it is. This is the 'official' internal word from Toyota. Enjoy your month.

gagrice

I hope you are right for the folks that are inconvenienced. I don't see how Toyota had any choice in this matter when the engine on a new truck blows up, or quits. In fact I was all done with all the current and past problems at Toyota. I just saw a poster preaching the wonders of Toyota and could not resist.

So when are you going to get me a diesel midsized PU truck? I am getting old waiting.

kdhspyder

I do believe that Dodge and Ford will be there first and GM soon after.

gagrice

I hope the race is on for better mileage and not better 0-60 times.

oldguy70

"If you don't like my posts just scroll over them"</</i>b>

Seems to me that admonition cuts both ways, right? (What's good for the goose is good for the gander?)

"I said in earlier post we disagree. End of discussion."

In other words, it's taking one's ball and bat and leaving the game in a huff!!

C'mon now, just because someone else isn't taking sides is no reason to abandon the discussion.
All I'm saying is it's not time to take sides yet.
It's too early in the game to make conclusions one way or the other.
Toyota's having some problems--is this a glitch or is it a trend?
Who knows?
Can it be shown where all other automakers have NEVER been in the same boat?
Truth be told, most have had it far worse at one time or another!!
It seems any time someone takes the pro Toyota side, you and a couple of other posters trot out all the dirt you can find and hold it up as proof of your conclusions. (Is that not 'bias' you seem to throw out as somehow unwelcome here??)
I admit to being biased--against hasty judgement--aka vigilante justice--and I challenge it when it happens.
What's so wrong (and obviously irksome) about that?

Sludge is one of the naysayer's favorite 'daggers'.
But sludge is history, and when it was a topic of choice, it was more tempest in a teapot--a rather small percentage of Toys had the problem--and to this day it's STILL unclear what the cause(s) were.
The more recent tranny issue is another often touted 'revelation'.
In spite of naysayers who want the world to believe it's an epidemic problem, it's pesence seems limited to a small sample of the overall population--at least it's not been shown otherwise yet.
I also see the much acclaimed 'apology' by Toy's CEO as evidence of skulduggery. I see that as a positive, not a negative, for the simple reason as 'how many corporate CEO's have made public apologies lately'??

So the reality in this debate points toward my contention re 'caution' in drawing conclusions at this time.
That's all.

anythngbutgm

Sludge was also an issue in VW VR6 motors and Chryslers 2.7, but that doesn't help "Take down Toyota" so it'll never be brought up either...

As far as the camshaft issue, as kdh mentioned, it was a material issue. I've said in other forums that material issues are really difficult to pinpoint if you are not buying the material directly. In this case, Toyota has a supplier who buys the material, they turn it, heat treat, whatever processes necessary to meet print. On Toyotas end of things, the only thing that matters to them is the material certs are present and the parts meet dimensional spec. Then it's off too assembly.

Much to the disappointed of the anti-Toyota crew here, Toyota is not the one to put the blame on in this situation. If there are internal stresses which are present in the core of the material, there is absolutely no way we should expect Toyotas "motor division" or whatever you want to call them to catch this during the assembly process.

Now, had this been an issue with the design itself, where the shafts were not robust enough to begin with, then yes, Toyota is 100% at fault. That isn't the case it seems, because a replacement "beefier cam" would be a bit more involved than just a swap and go.

That's just my take on this. I see no reason to break out the bubbly and start celebrating Toyotas demise.

stever

It doesn't matter who is ultimately to blame to the consumer - you buy a car from a Toyoto or VW or Chrysler dealer, not from one of the myriad of suppliers.

I have lousy ALPS made power window switches in my Nissan but I expect the dealer to fix that - I'm not going to Chicago and try to run down a $80 part and try to get the supplier to warrant it. Nissan spec'd the switch so Nissan is to blame.

If the camshaft breaks or I have sludge, how the manufacturer handles the situation is what counts to me (leaving aside how the dealer handles the situation - some dealers can make living with a lemon tolerable). If the manufacturer wants to chase after the supplier (Ford v. Navistar, for example), fine - just leave me out of that.

It's ok if Toyota wants to explain the problem (bad metal at the foundry) - just don't try to pass the buck when dealing with the consumer with the bad engine.

gagrice

I see no reason to break out the bubbly and start celebrating Toyotas demise

You are taking all the fun out of Toyota bashing. Did we do that to you on all those anti GM posts?

I doubt this will bring Toyota down from its current pinnacle. I do think all the recent recalls & problems have tarnished an image Toyota worked hard to gain during the 1980s & 90s. No company is invulnerable, look at the once mighty GM.

gagrice

you buy a car from a Toyoto or VW or Chrysler dealer, not from one of the myriad of suppliers.

Good point. I might add that Toyota has a history of beating down their suppliers to a rock bottom price. How does that affect the product they get? There could be a half dozen companies involved in the manufacture of that camshaft. The guy stuck along side the road with a new truck engine dead, could care less that the camshaft was made with poor quality steel. He is ticked at Toyota and wants his new truck to be reliable. That is what Toyota has built its reputation on. Not good roadside service.

imidazol97

If the problem is poor quality steel as postulated here from which the shafts were turned..., then it's Toyota's fault for not having required enough testing on each shaft to detect the imperfect metal. The buck stops here.

How Toyota passes the buck back to the supplier is up to them. But as an owner I don't care; I just expect my Tundra and other models to be reliable and serviceable to the extent the reputation which had been built indicated.

fezo

"You are taking all the fun out of Toyota bashing."

I like this. Truth in advertising!

Hey, Gary, I learned something new about Hawaii today - Spam most popular in Hawaii

I'll have a Spam McMuffin please - with native pineapple....

imidazol97

Thank for the link. My stomach is still churning from the thought.

gagrice

Spam is probably better than the Portuguese sausage breakfast at McDonald's. That is sooooo bad. My wife had to try it. Spam is very popular in Hawaii.

Speaking of food. Hilo now has 6 Thai restaurants, including the best one I have ever tried anywhere. Next to Mexican food I like Thai the best.

anythngbutgm

LOL, testing for each shaft? Um no. Even the parts that ANYBODY not just Toyota recieves, only a sampling goes through inspection (say 1 out of every batch of 100 or something). Hell, that's probably how they caught on to the issue in the first place... It would be FAR too costly and time consuming to inspect each and every part that gets "kitted", much less go through field testing on a part that would eventually go into a brand new motor. No offense man, but expecting rigorous testing on every new part, subassy, assy, would be just plain foolish. Nobody does that.

And in the end, that engine wouldn't really be "NEW" anymore would it...

Now, as far as "passing the buck" this flaw could have an impact on Toyo/suplier relations. Perhaps, WCS maybe they'll be looking elsewhere to have parts made. But guess what, A totally different supplier could deliver the same part with the same issues. Maybe not. Hell, Toyo could go through 15 different suppliers and only 1 of them comes though with faulty parts. Is Toyota at fault there for that one supplier, even if the other 14 are perfectly fine?

The only reason I see fit to blame Toyota here is if the Camshafts were improperly designed in the first place. But, that isn't the case here is it? Cause if it is, I'll be the first to trash Toyota for dumping 30 thousand 5.7 liter "Turds" on the market place. Believe me, there WILL be serious backlash if that happened, and I gaurantee Toyotas quest to crack the truck market will be seriously compromised. :mad:

Let's hope that isn't the case.

anythngbutgm

Point me to a post where I have done baseless GM bashing. Please, I'd love to read it.

Thanks.

fezo

I'd best not tell the wife about this. It would kill my case for Hawaii instantly.

anythngbutgm

And I absolutely agree with this. But in the context of this forum, we are discussing beyond the average Joe-shmo and debating the root cause of this issue. And I say, Toyota has the least of the blame here.

And I'll play devils advocate here and point out that if this were about ANY other manufacturer and someone like GM, Ford, Yugo, whomever had the same issue with one of their engines, we'd be seeing a change in tone. But, because this is Toyota...

Welcome to the world of internet forums I guess...

gagrice

Point me to a post where I have done baseless GM bashing

Did I say baseless? You may feel you have just cause to bash GM as I feel I have to bash Toyota.

oldguy70

"you buy a car from a Toyota or VW or Chrysler dealer, not from one of the myriad of suppliers".

Finally, some common ground!!
Steve is absolutely correct--the customer only sees the dealer in the purchase, and cares less about a supplier of whatever component failure.
No problem there. That caveat applies across the board.

However you lost me on another one of your Toyo bashing quips: "Toyota has a history of beating down their suppliers to a rock bottom price".
Perhaps you went a little too far there.
I'd question two things re that claim--(1) Where did that information originate (or is it another 'revelation'?), and (2) Do you really think Toyo is the only automaker that pushes their suppliers for cost cuts??
For your information ALL AUTOMAKERS really squeeze their suppliers--I mean really squeeze!!
Evidently you aren't aware just how much hardball is played throughout the industry these days.
From my own personal experience in supplying them all (my former company is a specialized, shop floor software development firm) I can say with complete confidence that Toyota isn't the toughest by any means.
Plus,to their credit, they pay on time and stick to their agreements--something rare in the auto manufacturing industry.
Given that your stated reason for bashing is only for personal enjoyment, it might be wise to cut back on embellishing certain claims--after all there is such a thing as credibility, n'est-ce-pas??

stever

if this were about ANY other manufacturer

I seem to recall a similar "tone" when the Ford and Firestone debacle occured with the Explorer rollovers.

Tires come with a separate warranty so that's a bit different - in the Explorer case the finger pointing managed to hurt both companies reputations.

I was bragging about Honda's handling of the CR-V AC problem - maybe they learned something after pointing fingers at their supplier (and owners and dealer techs) when the original oil filter gaskets stuck to the engine after the first oil change and several CR-V's caught on fire.

I like Spam. Occasionally. It's especially good on the last day of a long camping trip when you are really craving a hit of fat. I slice it thin and really crisp the edges. My wife loves breakfast in Hawaii since it's easy to get rice with breakfast. The Portuguese sausage is good too.

kdhspyder

Actually having been a direct supplier to the the Big 3 and indirectly to Toyota this is not accurate, Gary.

There was a take it or leave it philosophy from Detroit but a cooperative one from KY. It's not at all like what you proposed.

gagrice

I totally agree that ALL automakers squeeze the suppliers. TM being the biggest has the biggest stick to beat them with. GM was also bad at supplier relations. I think that was much of their problems years back. A vehicle is really only as good as its weakest part. I am more familiar with hiring sub contractors. I don't always go with the lowest price. Past performance is an equal part of the bidding. We can only hope that the automakers will be as concerned with quality parts as they are the bottom line.

imidazol97

>It's especially good on the last day of a long camping trip when you are really craving a hit of fat.

Maybe it's my past experiences, but I can't stand the thought of spam. Had it some when I was a kid; bought it one time after I was out in an apartment on my own. Can't stand the appearance and texture out of the can. Maybe it's because I also don't like camping. Six days Boy Scout camping was 4 days too much for me.

Maybe there's some middle ground on this? :grin

gagrice

I love a good quality Portuguese sausage. McDonald's in Hilo has a poor quality sausage. Could be they beat the supplier down to nothing and that is what they got. My wife likes rice with breakfast also. I like home fries with onions.

A spam burger at the Whale Fat Follies was good if memory serves me well. Oh, that Fly By Night Club!

anythngbutgm

was bragging about Honda's handling of the CR-V AC problem - maybe they learned something after pointing fingers at their supplier (and owners and dealer techs) when the original oil filter gaskets stuck to the engine after the first oil change and several CR-V's caught on fire.

I read that and yes, I'd say they definitely learned from that. And in that case, I would blame Honda, not the supplier because that is a direct relationship, parts made "to spec" for Honda Motor Co.

Even Toyotas supposed sludge issues (Nobody I know has ever had this happen but I digress...) I'd say is a Toyota design issue.

But I stand by the camshafts being a second partys' fault.

fezo

You will absolutely be getting big time requests for suggestions once we actually go to Hawaii. That's a couple of years yet so there's plenty of time to take notes. And that's just the visit part!

Haven't tried Portuguese sausage so I can't offer an opinion, but Spam is OK. None around the house because I am the only one who would eat it and I don't want it THAT much!

I'm just picturing where they'd have to tell you who made the various parts in your car. I'm sure the paperwork would weigh more than the car.

stever

You can still get rice and Portuguese sausage at Jackie's in Spenard if you ever get back to Anchorage, since Whitekeys shut the club down.

I don't hit Mickey Dee's on vacation. :shades:

But enough of the Off Topic Chatter - we have a whole board for that and we'll make the newcomers restless.

The workers at Toyota's Kentucky plant are restless:

Labor woes at Toyota outlined (Cincinnati.com)

imidazol97

can one get contention, car advice, and food recommendations for Mobile Five-star travel locations!

stever

Where else can the host post about a favorite diner and then tell everyone to go to another room to discuss it?

A little topic drift is normal and tolerated, so don't shut up entirely up on my account.

Maybe everyone was starved and left for lunch?