Are Toyota's recent quality problems just a glitch?

210delray

That seems to be old news in that what I've read more recently is that the Tundra is starting to "conquest" buyers who formerly had other makes.

(I hate the word "conquest" used improperly as a verb, but it's standard industry parlance now.)

gagrice

This article tracked up till June 10th. I would expect a few to jump ship if they are not happy with their truck. I doubt that Tundra will appeal to any of the fleet buyers. Dodge has never been able to crack that market. Requires a lot of personalized attention from the manufacturer. Something Toyota is not known for.

nippononly

when articles like that get the facts wrong. Toyota was hoping for 200K sales in CY 2008, recognizing that this year January was all leftover '06 Tundras, and in February and March dealers were not fully stocked yet.

Considering that, they should make 160-175K this year, which is what they were shooting for, if they can keep up the pace.

Of course, GM just had a terrible June with the Sierra/Silverado, so they have now boosted their cash on the hood to match Tundra's. It's a good time to be buying a full-size pick-up, if that's your thing.

How come geo9 changed his handle to hotel1? His writing style is so distinctive you can't miss him either way...

gagrice

When Toyota announced the building of the San Antonia plant for the Tundra, they said they planned to sell 250k Tundras by 2007. They downsized their estimate to 200k last year.

That was not the point of the article. It was Toyota is mainly selling the Tundra to previous Tundra owners, not gaining sales from Big 3 truck owners.

gagrice

Are investors losing confidence in Toyota stock?

The Toyota City, Japan-based company's American depositary receipts fell $1.22 to $125.71 at 4:01 p.m. in New York Stock Exchange composite trading. They have declined 6.4 percent this year.

ateixeira

Time to buy.

irismg

I think they should have never started building their cars over here...

bottgers

I don't think where they build their cars has anything to do with their recent problems. Quality control is the same no matter where they're built. I think it has more to do with trying to grow too fast. They can become the #1 auto maker in the world, but they can't do it overnight.

gagrice

Listened to an ad on the radio yesterday. Lexus Carlsbad is trying to get rid of their used Lexus inventory. When was the last time you heard of "ZERO" financing on a used car? I wonder if they are offering rebates on their new cars and SUVs?

ateixeira

Incentives are a pretty common practice. A better question is who doesn't use them?

gagrice

Porsche & Ferrari???

I have no idea. I just never remember seeing 0% on a used anything. I plan to go take a look. If I can drive a car on someone else's nickel I don't mind. As long as I can buy at wholesale book.

ateixeira

If you have to go to exotic sports cars that's just the exception that proves the rule.

I'm sure Lexus certified pre-owned (LOL, that's "used" to us) are marked up rather heavily so there's room for offering some incentives.

larsb

If your definition of "widespread" is TWO, then you hit the nail on the head. That page you linked - two people with Tranny issues.

And the Camry is not having "serious auto trans issues" either.

Tundra is not having "poor sales" either.

Your WAY off base on all this stuff dude.

gagrice

If your definition of "widespread" is TWO, then you hit the nail on the head. That page you linked - two people with Tranny issues.

I think you better read further back. There are 3 in the last couple days.

This guy has gone through two transmissions in his new Tundra in 950 miles.

I started not to post this but I am getting a bit more upset now.

First of all ... I am a "Toyota Lover" and had many of them over 20 years with little or no problems. Sooo, dont flame me as Anti-Toyota.

I bought a new 2007 5.7L, 6 speed June 2nd and transmission went out in about a week later at 500 miles.

Dealer put a new one in and now I am about 950 miles and the "2nd Trans stuck in 5th gear (on the interstae yesterday) and this AM .. it seemd to be hesitating on shifting and slipping a bit at very low speeds, while shifting from 1st to 2nd to 3rd. And I drive really baby this truck too. Heck, I have only "hit the gas once" to merge .. just before the trans stuck in 4th/5th.

gagrice

Looks like the Avalon has some transmission problems also. Maybe Toyota needs to spend some of that $10 Billion in profit on R&D.

Several long time Toyota fans are losing faith in their car company.

larsb

His problem sounds more like just an install problem and not a "the tranny needs to be replaced" problem.

Gary, EVERY carmaker has failed parts. Focusing on Toyota having MORE these days because they are SELLING MORE CARS is kinda time-wasting, dontcha think?

If we gathered EVERY COMPLAINT and busted part from every carmaker and determined from those busted parts " Automaker yyy is awful" and "Automaker ppp is awful" then the quickly reached conclusion would be "All Automakers are awful" and you know that would be a false conclusion.

I could hover in every car forum on this website and use instances of "service required" for EVERY CAR on here and say the manufacturer sucked because of that. But it would not be true.

And neither is all this stuff you are posting.

imidazol97

>Gary, EVERY carmaker has failed parts.

I have to agree.

Odd how some people hover in GM discussions with their doom and gloom history lessons. But when Toyota shows up with some problems, which they haven't been good at fixing, we hear about "There is only one out of the 10 millions cars sold this year stuff..."

In past when I mentioned the increase in problems indicating regression to the mean for problems by the "companies with perfect reliability" I was ridiculed. Now it has happened!

Welcome to automaking reality. And yes I believe Toyota's glitches are here to stay because of their higher production and their production being here in the States. That's true even though some will vehemently deny reality.

cooterbfd

Odd how some people hover in GM discussions with their doom and gloom history lessons. But when Toyota shows up with some problems, which they haven't been good at fixing, we hear about "There is only one out of the 10 millions cars sold this year stuff..."

Amen to that!!!!! The import fanboys LOVE to take potshots on the GM forum instead of discussing GM and their comeback. They probably wish this forum didn't exist.

Now, I'm not here to bash Toyota, but if there are problems, whether remote or widespread, why not discuss it, work together and come up w/ ideas on how to get them resolved (LORD KNOWS, the dealers are no angels), and get past it.

gagrice

EVERY carmaker has failed parts. Focusing on Toyota having MORE these days because they are SELLING MORE CARS is kinda time-wasting, dontcha think?

You should wander over to the GM threads and see all the anti-domestic rhetoric that gets posted. Toyota had a good run in the 1990s. Now it is falling apart and many that worship the Toyota god are devastated. They will spin the engine, transmission, airbag, rattling problems every which way they can. That does not eliminate the myriad problems facing the dealers today. And guess what the dealers are not used to handling problems so it is frustrating them. Rather than take it out on Toyota corporate, they treat the customers like crap. And that is how Toyota has fallen into the lower reaches of customer service.

I don't think that Toyota's recent problems are a glitch. I think they are the result of Toyota corporate greed and lack of foresight. I think maybe Congress needs to tap into that $10 billion of profit, like they are doing with the oil companies. How is it any different????

larsb

Gary, since you brought up the "corporate greed/Congress" issue, I will make a comment or two on that and then get back to Toyota.

By saying that Congress needs to "tap into that $10 billion of profit like they are doing with the oil companies" I can only assume this:

What you are in essence saying is that, "if a company is successful and is making huge profits, Congress should TAKE some of that money away from the hard-working people who earned it JUST because they are making it."

Is that what you mean? Does that not smack a little bit of Communism, where "all should be shared by all"? Does talk like that not make Congress look like just a group of "Robin Hoodish" thieves?

Last I checked, this is a Capitalist country, where anyone who earns a buck earns the right to keep it and spend it how they want to spend it.

And you stating that "'Yota is falling apart" kinda gives away some sort of alternate reality you have adopted for yourself.

Toyota is not "falling apart" and they WILL get the ship righted. It's just growing pains. My Toyota dealer does not treat me like crap. I have several friends who have Toyota vehicles and none of them complain about the dealerships they deal with.

I think some people on these forums take anecdotal stories and try to build a whole scenario behind them, a false scenario, based on their little piece of empirical evidence.

That's faulty logic mis amigos.

And Toyota having "lack of foresight" - now THAT'S a good one to start off a day laughing about !!! Thanks for the early morning giggle Gary !!! Double LOL !!

Read this to see how Toyota is addressing their growing pains:

No Hidden Problems

Here is another one talking about how Toyota address problems as soon as they know about them:

find the problem, fix it

Toyota has growing problems. But they WILL address them and correct them. Bet the House on it.....

gagrice

First I DO NOT now or did I agree with taking profits from the oil companies as was done in the Carter days. I was making a point on the record profits at Toyota.

It is not anecdotal on the poor customer service at Toyota dealers. That is JD Powers survey that finds Toyota in the below average arena.

For a company that prides itself on reliability, they are failing. More recalls than ever before is not anecdotal. IT IS FACT!

I know you are actually crying not laughing over your beloved Toyota's failures of late.

210delray

Where does JD Powers say Toyota is below average? (Not that I put much stock in JD, especially the absurd 90-day survey.) I'm the one that had a Volvo 240 for 21 years.

Those record recalls are from TWO years ago -- 2005, but everyone keeps spouting the same thing. In 2006, recalls were way down; this has been posted before.

So far so good in 2007, not like Ford for example.

Airbag problems? From a couple of reports?

BTW, as I keep saying, my 2004 and '05 Camrys just keep purring along (built well after those claimed halycon 90s). I can't believe the company has gone to hell in a handbasket in just a year or two.

I'm at work, but I'll have to see what the new kid on the block, TrueDelta, says about Toyota reliability, since so many of you dispute and despise Consumer Reports.

mcdawgg

I don't think that Toyota's recent problems are a glitch. I think they are the result of Toyota corporate greed and lack of foresight. I think maybe Congress needs to tap into that $10 billion of profit, like they are doing with the oil companies. How is it any different????

The difference is you can go buy another make, since you hate Toyota and think that their profits are in excess.

However, cars all use oil and gasoline, so you have to buy from the oil companies to drive your car. But you don't have to buy a Toyota if you hate them.

210delray

I suppose if you're into biodiesel, you could thumb your nose at the big oil companies by fueling up on used cooking oil/grease from your favorite local restaurant.

ateixeira

The most profitable car company is actually Porsche. Per unit they make by far the most profit.

Enough that little ol' Porsche now owns a chunk of VW/Audi.

You would think it would be the other way around, but nope.

anythngbutgm

in a Chevy Avalanche. Told me that I shouldn't be driving my Honda Accord on "HIS AMERICAN ROADS"

(Linked the story so I don;t have to re-type it)

link title

So maybe like Gary I can hold a grudge against GM based on something that happened way in the past as well? Even though it has zero pertinence to the brand now?

Gagrice, just joshin ya.

gagrice

Not all oil companies are making big profits just like not all car makers. You can buy from the little oil companies.

My comment had little to do with Toyota and everything to do with Congress taxing profits. Maybe I should say go after Microsoft and that would make the folks worshiping in the Toyota Temple less incensed.

kdhspyder

Toyota had a good run in the 1990s. Now it is falling apart and many that worship the Toyota god are devastated. They will spin the engine, transmission, airbag, rattling problems every which way they can.

You are hoping that Toyota is failing. But in fact they are not and more and more buyers are going their way. Squeaky wheels are certainly heard loud and clear and amplified by others. but the vast vast vast majority don't have any problems or realize that vehicles are just mechanical parts put together by humans with robots as assistants. Nothing more. You're looking at less than 200 complaints over a volume of hundreds of thousands of vehicles. My Prius rattles over rough roads and my wife doesn't like her radio in the Solara, the Highlander is perfect though after 4 years. All three vehicles function perfectly for the purpose for which they were intended. Transportation. None of the three has cost us a dime in unexpected expenses. I can't ask for anything more than that.

kdhspyder

It is not anecdotal on the poor customer service at Toyota dealers. That is JD Powers survey that finds Toyota in the below average arena.

For a company that prides itself on reliability, they are failing. More recalls than ever before is not anecdotal. IT IS FACT!

I know you are actually crying not laughing over your beloved Toyota's failures of late.

Toyota has been concerned about poor dealer reviews since the 90's. This is old, old, old news. Here is the secret apparently. The small Mom and Pop stores are doing great in CSI. The sell 50-100 units a month to a repeat clientele in a small market where everyone is a neighbor. The big stores are not faring so well. For a lot of reasons including:
...massive turnover in Sales staffs in large stores;
...huge monolithic organizations;
...large, diverse populations speaking up to 7 languages!!! (Farsi, Japanese, Arabic, Tagalog, Spanish, French, multiple dialects of Chinese, Russian, oh...and English ).
...Toyota and to a lesser extent Honda is the choice of the new immigrants to the States. The concept of 'rewarding' the salesperson with a good survey is pardon the pun..'foreign'.
...productivity is often favored over 'hand-holding'. If a sales person is going to see one potential buyer on a Saturday and that's it, a lot of time can be taken in doing the 'soft sell'. If an different sales person has 3 appointments spaced 3 hours apart and 3 walkin previous customers who just happen to be starting their shopping that day.....( We have one guy who by himself outsells 5 or 6 other franchises in our locale on an annual basis ... and he's not the leading sales person in the region...much less the country )

I have the actual recall stats downloaded from the NHTSA. All recall stats are up for every vehicle maker over the last several years. After Ford/Firestone and the stoning that the NHTSA officials took in Congress they are not letting anything slip by again.
If the carpet in our Highlander is faulty ..recall it. Carpet? A safety issue?
If the drink holders in the Durangos are faulty .. recall them. Drink holders?
If the owner's manual in Hondas has a misprint... recall them. Misprint?

All safety issues.

Again I know you'd like for there to be horrific problems in the House of Toyota but....they are just not there.

Now lots of things do need to be improved all the time. CSI is right at the top. Production performance/reliability always is a key area as well. A good philosophy I first saw when the recent Camry launched is 'There is no best, only better'.

kdhspyder

Not to mention the 07 tundra transmission woes at tundrasolutions.com..............

Seems the "cheerleaders" choose to ignore facts (as usual).

Y'know what's even worse? Hmmmm?

The new GMT900 ( fully boxed frame !! ) can't even outsell the old GMT800 ( C-channel frame !! ). Ouch!! Just thought I'd give you a match to set your hair on fire.

And the new Tundra with the Triple Tech frame is already outselling the new Sierra GMT900 half-ton. It's only been out 5 months and it's already blown by the Sierra.

gagrice

You know I like your posts. No erratic spin. Just good logical answers. I would buy a car from you if you were on the right coast. I would have to beat you down to invoice like all the rest.

ateixeira

I wouldn't call 385 posts in the Camry transmission problems thread "growing by leaps and bounds daily".

Especially given how long they've been out.

That amounts to about one post per day, roughly. And of course not all posts are reporting a new failure.

In fact I'd characterzie that thread as relatively inactive for such a high volume car.

210delray

Right, and some of those "problems" are a little, ahem, "out there." Like "sudden acceleration," which has pretty much been proven to be a case of people stepping on the wrong pedal -- oops!

kdhspyder

Given your background and your search for the perfect pickup I thought you'd like this item, Gary.

Arctic Challenge

http://www.pickuptruck.com/html/stories/arctic/polar1.html

larsb

gary tells kdhspyder, "You know I like your posts. No erratic spin. Just good logical answers."

And I don't get no "Gair love" for my hundreds of "logical" posts? I basically been telling ya the same things kdh has been saying !!! Whatsup Widat Gair Bear, I thought we wuz budz too ??!?!?!?!?!?!? LOL

P.S. Still voting for the "glitch" side.........

ateixeira

Those flares look pretty sweet. Makes me want a truck and I don't even like trucks!

gagrice

Too bad Toyota does not have the where withal to bring that diesel truck to the USA.

gagrice

LARSB, You know I like you. We have been dueling since the hybrids hit the streets man.

You have to admit you are a little teeny wee bit more bias toward hybrids than our resident Toyota sales man. That does not detract from your posts. Just makes us hybrid skeptics dig deeper. I mean that diesel PU could pull me back into the Toyota fold.

Mr_Shiftright

Consumer Reports has just completed its biggest ever reliability survey for 2003-2007 vehicles.

Read more here:

Domestics, Germans Fare Poorly in Reliability Survey

Visiting Host

kdhspyder

Many, many posts here at edmunds on severe transmission
failures with the 07 camry and a host of quality issues.

Welcome to last year. Ok to humor you put a number on the different problem posts here at Edmunds. 50? 100? 300? 500?

Now subtract this number from 600,000 units sold since it's debut in March 07 and you get???? Keep hoping I'm sure your prayers will be answered one day.

gagrice

I thought only the 6 speed was failing. Isn't it limited to the V6 model Camry? So how many have failed of the ones sold? Does Toyota tell you those figures? Or is that TOP secret stuff?

imidazol97

The logic that the number of problems represented on the internet is trivial because 1) it's one person making up all the stories 2) it's only a small portion of the total number of vehicles sold doesn't make sense.

If all the people who bought a problematic car know that they actually have a problem,
If all the people know that they can post on the internet and find others who have similar problems,
If those people are actually the type who does use the internet in this manner,
Then that logic would work.

Otherwise noone actually knows how many problems are out there based on the small percentage who figure out they have a problem transmission/powertrain (rather than it being their driving is wrong or that they have to adapt to the car instead of vice-versa) and then out of that the small percentage that posts on the internet. The percentage is a total unknown.

Are Camry buyers more or less computer literate than other car model buyers?

What percent of total Camry, in this case, buyers use the internet and actually do post about problems?

So the postings actually represent a sampling. As to the ratio of that sample to the whole which is the total number of Camrys sold, that's a variable. And it's unknown.

carguy58

People must NOT read the sedans threads here at Edmunds !
Yet they continue to bang the drum with cries of "the 07 camry has NO problems"!

The 07 camry general problem thread had over 3800 posts of complaints!
Not to mention SEVERAL transmission only problem threads.

Even a seperate TSB listing thread for all the known issues
that toyota can't hide under the rug on this lemon mobile.

So every car by every make has TSB's so whats your point?

ateixeira

And by the way, noone in this thread ever said the 07 Camry has no problems.

No car is perfect, we all know that.

If you're going to make claims like that, please search for that particular post and include a link (right click the message number, Copy Shortcut, then paste in your post).

Quiet? Yeah, thought so... :P

larsb

You....do....know.....that.....3800....posts.....does......not.....mean.....3800- ....complaints...,,,,,,,right?

ateixeira

Last I heard they were sharing BBQ recipe tips.

That's a joke. But those threads often to veer WAY off topic.

All the best selling vehicles have busy "problems" threads, as you'd expect.

kdhspyder

You know that those problem posts are all made by one person. You also know that all the 'shoutdowns' are done just to annoy you personally. It's part of the 'secret plan'.

Mr_Shiftright

I think we have to look at the idea of "problems" as a relative thing, that is, relative from one car to another.

For instance, the "best" car of 1975 would be the worst car today, compared to 2007 models. In the same way, the #1 listed car in terms of reliability, and the #5 car on the list, are really a nit-pick away from each other.

I tend to view reliability reports is GROSS terms---that is, I look at the top 5 and the bottom 5 and THERE I think there might be a significant difference. A Toyota really is going to have a LOT...a LOT...fewer problems than a Mercedes Benz....but the difference between a Toyota and a Honda or even a Buick? Probably not all that much in the short run of the warranty.

In longterm reliability, I think Toyota pretty much stands alone. One would be hard put to convince 99% of the used car buyers out there than buying a used Toyota is not a good idea.

larsb

Well Said. Hear Hear. Well Done. Round of Digital(Virtual) Applause.

ateixeira

Yup.

I remember a Kia executive arguing that the difference between the average car and a Kia (dead last at the time) amounted to something like 0.4 defects per car at the time, i.e. most people won't even notice any difference.