One month does not make a trend. From what else I've read, GM sales were up because of sales to fleets (again)! Toyota's were down (2.8%!) because of a shortage in the supply of Yaris hatchbacks.
I'll have the detailed numbers in a matter of days, so we'll see what the real story is.
Here are all the numbers. Did the boat loaded with Yaris sink or did they figure no one would buy a Yaris with the price of gas on the down hill slide? Who buys those cars? There are not that many midgets in the country. I stood next to one and would not contort my body to try and get in. If that is all that kept Toyota from gaining, they are in bigger trouble than all their other failures. At least the Tundra incentives are paying off. Though that was not a banner month compared to previous months.
Toyota didn't meet the demand for Yaris hatchback models...
I love it how in one month all of a sudden Toyota is faltering on the brink of extinction, yet those 30+ years of GM detroilet garbage are forgotten and now GM is gods gift to the automobile again. lol.
Gary, dude grab a cup o joe and then come back to the computer , you sound like you're still dreaming
Ironically though, the best Mopars were probably the Valiant and Dart.
Shoot, for many people, they were probably the best cars out there at the time. Heck, I, myself would like the simplicity and dependability of a Dart in a present-day car. If there was a nuclear war, the only things to survive would probably be cockroaches and Darts and Valiants with the Slant Six.
I remember seeing an article from back in the day describe the new Dodge Dart like a brand-new 1965 car in 1975, which really wasn't that bad considering how automotive quality deteriorated by the mid-1970s.
Yaris probably suffering the same fate that befell its predecessor the Echo. Heck, it's priced so close to a Corolla, many probably choose to move up to it rather than the Lilliputian Yaris. People who want maximum fuel economy prefer the Prius. How well does the Honda Fit sell, or is it too outclassed by the Civic?
The Yaris is actually selling in fairly large numbers, better than the Fit. The problem as I understand it is that the supply of Yaris 3-door hatches is tight. The Fit is also constrained by supply, and it gets much better reviews than the Yaris.
Are supplies of Yaris and Fit being constrained by their makers? They may be a very low profit margin vehicle. Why push something that makes little dollars or sense?
grbeck: In the 1970s, people weren't comparing a Corolla or a Corona to an Impala or a Cutlass Supreme. Detroit's intermediates and full-size cars - at least the ones built in the early and mid-1970s - lasted longer and were more immune to rust.
They didn't compare them to Chevs or Cutlasses, that's right. In the mid 70s the foreign cars were being bought for low price and great gas mileage. Many had great mileage for commuter car because they were manual transmissions. The Pinto and Vega offerings were not as economical, had more problems. The foreign cars had few options to go bad. They were practical but small. Actually they were the ideal commuter car, econoboxes they were called, that Detroit wasn't nimble enough to change their pattern and produce. CR loved them.
Another car from that era was the Pacer and the Gremlin. They were more like downsized cars using many of the same parts. The economy gain wasn't enough. After the 1973 Carter era gas shortage people wanted to save money after the gas prices hit $.40-$.50/gallon or so.
Toyota did not falter. We did not have as much inventory on the ground as in June and July. With the 08's coming in and most 07's gone pickin's are slim. I had a great month so no shortage of customers for me. Mackabee p.s. september is starting out great too if I can just get the vehicles I need. Two dealer exchanges and two orders that won't be here for another month or two.
Sounds like a serious problem to me if they cannot keep enough inventory for the dealers. The article in CNN said that the dealerships were not getting the traffic they used to. Which could be the mess in the mortgage business. Or it could be people driving by and seeing the same purple Corolla out front and heading over to Hyundai.
To me August is a month that dealers are now dumping excesss inventory to make room for the 08's coming in I mean in my opinion Toyota dealers I don;t think had alot of 07 models to clear off their lots not the way Toyota's fly off lots these days anyway.
Without the 24% increase in rental fleet sales GM would have had a decrease in sales just like Toyota did if not a bigger decrease in sales last months than Toyota's 2.8% sales dip.
If the 2007 inventory was already sold, what does the dealer offer prospective customers wanting to buy a new Toyota? I cannot imagine a Toyota dealer letting the lot get empty. If a Toyota spokesman says that traffic at the dealerships is down, I have to believe that it is because there is less demand.
"If the 2007 inventory was already sold, what does the dealer offer prospective customers wanting to buy a new Toyota? I cannot imagine a Toyota dealer letting the lot get empty."
I didn't say that Toyota's lots were empty of 07s what I;m saying is Toyota's probably didn;t have alot of 07's that they had to clear off the lot so thus that led to YTM(Year To Month) sales decline because all automkers are/were trying to clear 07 models off their lot to make room for their 08's. I guess Toyota is selling 08's now.
"If a Toyota spokesman says that traffic at the dealerships s down, I have to believe that it is because there is less demand."
Toyota's have been in demand for like this whole year this year so thus they had very little excess inventory(07's) to clear off of dealer lots in comparison to other automakers.
Read the consumer reviews here at Edmund's. If you can read those and think that Toyota has not gone way down hill, you are not reading the same ones I am.
Examples in the last 20 days since all the TSBs: What's all the fuss? I now realize that the Camry is tinny, overpriced, and very expensive to maintain. I cannot get over 22 mpg. There are no dealerships in small towns, and they just love to replace my "cabin filter" even though I cleaned it minutes before I arrived at the dealership for service
My wife and I love pretty much everything about the Camry except the sluggishness at times when hitting the gas pedal to merge in traffic. And the fact that we have had it back to the dealer 2 times, soon 3, to try to fix the dash. Right next to the clock and the windshield it keeps popping up. It is really annoying.
After owning many Toyotas and Lexus, this Camry is the first Toyota I did not like. The engine/transmission was a Jekyll/Hyde affair. Sometimes it hesitated, sometimes it was overly sensitive, sometimes it was OK. The ride is best described as pitch and bob. As long as the road was smooth it was good. The center dashboard had the cheapest plastic available. It is hard to believe Toyota would use such materials in so conspicuous a place. This sort of thing is what American car companies were severely criticized for but I haven't read one word about it in any enthusiast magazine. After 8 months, I drove a 2007 Saturn Aura. Bye, bye Camry. I bought the Saturn. I look forward to driving again.
1) Idles too fast - will move down road at 5-6 miles per hour w/o touching gas - very dangerous at stop signs as it will surge forward. 2) Cruise will not hold on hill - set at 65, up to 75 at bottom of hill. 3) Brakes - when brake applied, car surges/jogs forward before taking hold. 4)Poor gas milage 14 to 19 in town; 29 on highway. 5) Poor craftsmanship on interior. Carpets not down right, cap cover for seat track comes off. 6) Shifts hard/jerky 7) Drivers side auto up/down window- cannot put down several inches - goes all the way down or all the way up 8) Upon resuming cruise, it will accelerate so fast you are thrown back in your seat-like being shot out of a gun.
I replaced my 2003 Camry with this one and I am deeply dissapointed. First of all the engine is too weak for the mass of the new car. Second the internal comfort id awful. The previous soft seats were replaced with hard cheap ones which are very very uncomfortable and give me back pain. Third the visibility is much worse than on 2003 model. Indeed the engine is slightly quiter, but overal impression is the same as on old model. Inside there is a lot of CHEAP plastic and designer who made the design is obviously does not hold diploma and is amateur. In sum - bad car for the money.I have been Toyota owner for more than 20 years but latest Camry put a break of my loyality to the company.
Thanks for posting those owner comments. There were others on a different auto site mentioned here in a thread on Edmunds a few months ago and I can't find what one it was. They were similar for both Camry/Accord.
The reality is that regression to the mean is occuring in the mass market versions, just as problems occur in all mass market cars.
Top models for what? It is good to see VW has a car in the list. Whatever the list is for. Having popular models means little for future sales. The Ford Taurus was number one for a long time also. QC went down sales followed. QC at Toyota is falling sales will follow. It may take a year or so as Toyota built up a good reputation for quality.
That's a pretty curious list. Lots of it makes sense but any top 20 vehicles that includes a Jeep Patriot and a VW and doesn't include the Accord is suspect in my book.
I'd have to know what they were rating.
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
Considering that Gary rags so much about Consumer Reports, I can't see how such self-reported, voluntary "consumer reviews" have any statistical validity.
Besides the last two cited are laughable:
1) Idles too fast - will move down road at 5-6 miles per hour w/o touching gas - very dangerous at stop signs as it will surge forward. 2) Cruise will not hold on hill - set at 65, up to 75 at bottom of hill. 3) Brakes - when brake applied, car surges/jogs forward before taking hold. 4)Poor gas milage 14 to 19 in town; 29 on highway. 5) Poor craftsmanship on interior. Carpets not down right, cap cover for seat track comes off. 6) Shifts hard/jerky 7) Drivers side auto up/down window- cannot put down several inches - goes all the way down or all the way up 8) Upon resuming cruise, it will accelerate so fast you are thrown back in your seat-like being shot out of a gun.
I replaced my 2003 Camry with this one and I am deeply dissapointed. First of all the engine is too weak for the mass of the new car. Second the internal comfort id awful. The previous soft seats were replaced with hard cheap ones which are very very uncomfortable and give me back pain. Third the visibility is much worse than on 2003 model. Indeed the engine is slightly quiter, but overal impression is the same as on old model. Inside there is a lot of CHEAP plastic and designer who made the design is obviously does not hold diploma and is amateur. In sum - bad car for the money. I have been Toyota owner for more than 20 years but latest Camry put a break of my loyality to the company.
As for "regression to the mean," this term gets bandied around a lot here, but it has no applicability to quality control of the lack thereof. Quality control is rooted in company policy; it's not something subject to random changes such as the weather.
And the more they sell the more customers get to see the poor quality to the plastics and the poor fit along with engineering problems we've been discussion.
I notice that no longer are the devotees screaming that there aren't really problems, that it's just the mistaken musings of unhappy buyers who haven't adjusted to their cars, etc.
I'm sure you can pick a car, any car, that's reasonably popular, such as the Chrysler 300 (not to pick on Toyota OR GM), and find a raft of problems reported here on Edmunds. What counts are the overall stats, and these won't be found on the "problems and solutions" boards, as the hosts themselves state, nor on the consumer reviews.
The two consumer reviews I've picked from Gary's selection, for example, are ludicrous. What auto tranny car doesn't move at the horrendous speed of 5-6 mph at idle? What car can defy gravity when going down a steep enough hill, cruise control or not? Plastic seat track cover that comes off, oh my! If you don't want the car to "rocket" when resuming cruise, accelerate with your foot first, then resume, especially if you're going uphill. Then the other guy says the engine is too weak. The car's only increased in weight by about 100 lbs, and the horsepower for the 4-cylinder is about the same compared to the 2003, so what's up with that?
Well, they're only snap-fit on, so if your vacuuming the carpet or using some force, they might come off. Not a big deal; they don't come off by themselves.
Surely being about the same age as me, you remember the bad old days when you were glad the car even started on cold mornings! Younger people today don't know how good they've got it!
Looks like the failure of Toyota to maintain good QC with their fast growth has brought out a lot of deniers. I only posted very recent Camry reviews to put forth the FACT that Toyota has NOT gotten their problems with the transmissions corrected. I am sure I can find 50 or 60 very credible complaints posted on Edmund's reviews if you like reading about unhappy Toyota customers.
At least there is a real person on the other end of the review. With CR you are assuming they are dealing fairly.
I'm not denying squat. Yes, there have been some transmission complaints, mainly for new 6-speed that goes with the V6. But the number of complaints in and of themselves mean nothing when you don't know the denominator (problem rate).
But people whining about cars picking up speed going downhill is silly.
And as I pointed out, I'm sure you can find 50-60 complaints quite easily on any reasonably popular car; I gave the Chrysler 300 as an example. Now on an Isuzu Ascender, there may be NO complaints, because their sales are in the dumpster.
I'm not going to get into the CR ad nauseum debate, but I'm getting a little tired of all the arguments that this outfit is somehow "unfair." Well, check out what could be a better mousetrap here. Better yet, join their panel; I did.
The question at hand, is Toyota reliability problems a glitch? My position, it IS. Sure there were people happy with their Camry. Like larsb, that is willing to put up with squeaks and rattles in a new car.
Here is fair and balanced. This person gave the Camry a "10" I post his comments:
Looking for a basic family sedan, I drove numerous brands over many months. The quality of construction, ride, quietness, and legroom are excellent. While the 4 cylinder does not have the punch of the Honda Accord 4 cylinder, the comfort and quietness of the ride won out. Others have complained about the "pause" on downshift when hitting the gas. It's there. But it doesn't bother me the way I drive. Seating front and rear is excellent.
If he has a "pause" on downshift when hitting the gas, he might have the software bug that Toyota fixed before 10-1-2006.
And I'm not "willing to put up with squeaks and rattles" in a new car. A more apt description would be that I am "someone who understands that cars are not bank vaults and they will have minor squeaks and rattles as a NORMAL part of being a car."
If you want "near total silence" while driving a car, you need to find another planet.
That is what I have been saying all along. TOYOTA has NOT fixed the problem This poster just bought his Camry. The guy that has had his in the shop 3 times has it in the shop NOW.
Not everyone feels they should listen to squeaks and rattles in a new car. I know you are familiar with the thread on "Squeaks and Rattles in the Camry Hybrid". Trying to listen to classical music with a squeak here and a thump there is not acceptable. I had to track down a squeak in my wife's Lexus. It drove me crazy till I found it. Yes I do expect to have them in an 18 year old vehicle. Not a vehicle still under warranty.
And as I pointed out, I'm sure you can find 50-60 complaints quite easily on any reasonably popular car;
Well to be fair it should be the closest competitor to the 2007 Camry. The 2007 Accord. I see 28 owners of the 07 Camry giving it a rating under 5.0. I only see one Accord under 5.0.
And I reiterate, the point is, Toyota in there exuberance to sell the most vehicles have put out two trouble prone models in 2007. They have built their reputation on reliability and it is faltering.
No squeaks or rattles in my 10-year old leSabre with 150K miles. Same true for 03 leSabre with 60K miles. I sure wouldn't stand for a car costing that much having squeaks. When I test drove an 03 Accord there was a plastic rattle in it along with popping sound when it went into a driveway. That with road noise made it less attractive. The 03 Camry was much better but just didn't "feel" right when I sat in it.
I feel better now that I made you post something nice about a Toyota. Once. Ever.
Every car will have glitches, I guarantee it.
If you tell me your Buick/Toyota/Mercedes is perfect drive it over and I bet I can find 3-4 things wrong with it.
You are merely pointing out the 1 or 2 issues that a few owners are having with their new cars. Toyota sells millions of Camrys, of course people are going to report a few problems.
When we see a pattern, a recall is issued. Until then, we red flag the issue and follow it closely. It's too early to give the verdict.
The 6 speed auto is definitely red flagged, let's see how many of them are affected long-term and what Toyota does about it.
When we see a pattern, a recall is issued. Until then, we red flag the issue and follow it closely. It's too early to give the verdict.
This is factually untrue.
A pattern developed early. Toyota did not issue a recall, it started formulating TSBs, which some dealers are STILL evidently not aware of because some people have had to obtain copies here to print and bring to service providers.
During that time, the general feedback provided to numerous owners was (and on numerous visits, sometimes to more than one dealer), there is no issue, the car is operating as designed, or they all do this, or the unit is adapting to your style of driving, or you have to re-learn how to drive a vehicle with a "Smart" transmission.
We even had 3 threads here at Edmunds shutdown related to Hesitation in the past year or so because people couldn't be civil about did the problem exist or not. Most if not all of the naysayers who tried to convince everyone that a problem didn't exist have been long long gone. TSBs have come and gone with updates to superscede older TSBs prepared in the process.
Please don't marginalize how far people have come looking to make sense of this. It's taken a lot of effort for them to get this front and center and addressed. For some, their experience is far from over.
I keep thinking about how this would have been handled posterwise if this were a Ford problem or GM problem being discussed in a thread about their car. We all know how it would have had a whole different tone to the posts.
As for the wait-and-see, I think that this was the snap-ring issue's real purpose and that was to put out PR about a minor problem. But in reality it's a big, wide spread problem. I have to say I'm much more impressed with Honda's handling of their 2nd gear overheating problem by coming out with a jury-rigged fix and having their dealers face it headon.
TSB, recall, until they figure out which ones are affected (because not all of them are, obviously) and what the fix is, we won't have the final verdict.
I see new Camrys all over the place and have yet to see one on the side of the road broken down. The way some folks here talk you'd think that every single new Camry were on a tow truck.
The way some folks here talk you'd think that every single new Camry were on a tow truck.
ah, no. i believe you'll find people being pretty factual about it. you'll find the same for the postings on the NHTSA site. no one has suggested the sky is falling.
people have indicated their safety is compromised though by the hesitation behavior. :surprise:
there are posters here indicating they have absolutely no trouble with their Camry and it's their best vehicle yet. i don't think ANYONE wrote that can't be so.
but some population (and you don't know what it is, and neither do I, evidently Toyota doesn't either...hmmm) of the production IS defective.
no splitting hairs here, there or anywhere - so no further spin control required plz and thx.
here's a recent example of how Toyota isn't helping its customers:
the cruise is working as designed (only if designed to work extremely poorly). :sick:
This is the Shameful Side of Lean raising its ugly head. It's Toyota's game and it's their responsibility to make good on their customer-centricity and focus on quality.
Given time to do just that I think it's pretty likely they will.
Edit: I'm reading the original complaint, and the owner is fussing about shifting when cruise is activated. Seems to me the function of cruise is to maintain a set speed, so it seems natural for the transmission to shift to the appropriate gear.
If he wants more control, the fix is simple - don't use cruise! Use your right foot to control the throttle and drive the car, for crying out loud.
The job of the cruise is to maintain a set speed, not a set gear.
If this is not an indication of the way people are reacting to the transmission problems with the Camry. I think the problem is well stated by this owner. He loved his 2004 Camry and HATES the 2007 Camry. Consistency no matter how good or bad is the key to sustaining customers. Toyota needs to talk to the top guys at McDonalds.
let's hope given enough time they DO take care of all the owners with hesitation, excess shifting, cruise control, shift flare issues, yeah.
let's say though you're the unfortunate owner of a vehicle that hesitates. so how much hesitation and how long of a wait would you find reasonable to give Toyota?
me? none, and it should be fixed upon the very first visit to the dealership. if that's not possible, provide a new car without the behavior or unwind the deal. now that would be customer-centric!
on the cruise control issue: look, the purpose of cruise is to maintain a set speed. i do controls work. no self respecting controls engineer i know would design a cruise to operate as is being described. no one would. it's likely in it's current implementation, perhaps by virture of torque convertor design and gearing to add to premature part wear, driver and passenger discomfort, driver distraction, less than most efficient fuel economy, and just plain poor owner acceptance...
meanoldteacher (funny name) is primarily complaining about her dealership.
In that very post he writes "not even then if gagged by corporate", which means that Toyota is going to bat for him and the dealer is too incompetent to fix it.
Both examples you (plural, both of you) brought up are not clear-cut cases like you seem to think.
meanoldteacher needs to find another Toyota dealership.
To be honest I wasn't happy with my dealer. They forgot my antennae at delivery (maybe that's the same issue meanoldteacher has with radio reception, my exact symptom), and left greasy finger prints on the interior.
This isn't really Toyota's fault, though. They rushed the PDI and were careless at the service.
Who is to blame? DARCARS, who owns 355 Toyota in Rockville, MD. Not Toyota.
OK, so far we have cruise control that actually shifts gears to maintain speed (HEAVEN FORBID) and a sloppy PDI by the dealer that forgot an antennae and can't fix an issue despite Toyota corporate's attemps to "gag" the dealer into helping one of its customers.
Comments
I'll have the detailed numbers in a matter of days, so we'll see what the real story is.
http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=104&STORY=/www/story/09-04-200- 7/0004656109&EDATE=
I love it how in one month all of a sudden Toyota is faltering on the brink of extinction, yet those 30+ years of GM detroilet garbage are forgotten and now GM is gods gift to the automobile again. lol.
Gary, dude grab a cup o joe and then come back to the computer , you sound like you're still dreaming
Shoot, for many people, they were probably the best cars out there at the time. Heck, I, myself would like the simplicity and dependability of a Dart in a present-day car. If there was a nuclear war, the only things to survive would probably be cockroaches and Darts and Valiants with the Slant Six.
I remember seeing an article from back in the day describe the new Dodge Dart like a brand-new 1965 car in 1975, which really wasn't that bad considering how automotive quality deteriorated by the mid-1970s.
They didn't compare them to Chevs or Cutlasses, that's right. In the mid 70s the foreign cars were being bought for low price and great gas mileage. Many had great mileage for commuter car because they were manual transmissions. The Pinto and Vega offerings were not as economical, had more problems. The foreign cars had few options to go bad. They were practical but small. Actually they were the ideal commuter car, econoboxes they were called, that Detroit wasn't nimble enough to change their pattern and produce. CR loved them.
Another car from that era was the Pacer and the Gremlin. They were more like downsized cars using many of the same parts. The economy gain wasn't enough. After the 1973 Carter era gas shortage people wanted to save money after the gas prices hit $.40-$.50/gallon or so.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
My brother is in the same boat as I was just out of college, little credit and all. He's making the same size loan I made in 1993.
Back then my PMI (private mortagage insurace) was about $50 per month, he'll have to pay $180!
No new cars for him in the near future.
Mackabee
p.s. september is starting out great too if I can just get the vehicles I need. Two dealer exchanges and two orders that won't be here for another month or two.
http://money.cnn.com/news/newsfeeds/articles/djf500/200709041828DOWJONESDJONLINE- 000705_FORTUNE5.htm
Without the 24% increase in rental fleet sales GM would have had a decrease in sales just like Toyota did if not a bigger decrease in sales last months than Toyota's 2.8% sales dip.
I didn't say that Toyota's lots were empty of 07s what I;m saying is Toyota's probably didn;t have alot of 07's that they had to clear off the lot so thus that led to YTM(Year To Month) sales decline because all automkers are/were trying to clear 07 models off their lot to make room for their 08's. I guess Toyota is selling 08's now.
"If a Toyota spokesman says that traffic at the dealerships s down, I have to believe that it is because there is less demand."
Toyota's have been in demand for like this whole year this year so thus they had very little excess inventory(07's) to clear off of dealer lots in comparison to other automakers.
Examples in the last 20 days since all the TSBs:
What's all the fuss? I now realize that the Camry is tinny, overpriced, and very expensive to maintain. I cannot get over 22 mpg. There are no dealerships in small towns, and they just love to replace my "cabin filter" even though I cleaned it minutes before I arrived at the dealership for service
My wife and I love pretty much everything about the Camry except the sluggishness at times when hitting the gas pedal to merge in traffic. And the fact that we have had it back to the dealer 2 times, soon 3, to try to fix the dash. Right next to the clock and the windshield it keeps popping up. It is really annoying.
After owning many Toyotas and Lexus, this Camry is the first Toyota I did not like. The engine/transmission was a Jekyll/Hyde affair. Sometimes it hesitated, sometimes it was overly sensitive, sometimes it was OK. The ride is best described as pitch and bob. As long as the road was smooth it was good. The center dashboard had the cheapest plastic available. It is hard to believe Toyota would use such materials in so conspicuous a place. This sort of thing is what American car companies were severely criticized for but I haven't read one word about it in any enthusiast magazine. After 8 months, I drove a 2007 Saturn Aura. Bye, bye Camry. I bought the Saturn. I look forward to driving again.
1) Idles too fast - will move down road at 5-6 miles per hour w/o touching gas - very dangerous at stop signs as it will surge forward. 2) Cruise will not hold on hill - set at 65, up to 75 at bottom of hill. 3) Brakes - when brake applied, car surges/jogs forward before taking hold. 4)Poor gas milage 14 to 19 in town; 29 on highway. 5) Poor craftsmanship on interior. Carpets not down right, cap cover for seat track comes off. 6) Shifts hard/jerky 7) Drivers side auto up/down window- cannot put down several inches - goes all the way down or all the way up 8) Upon resuming cruise, it will accelerate so fast you are thrown back in your seat-like being shot out of a gun.
I replaced my 2003 Camry with this one and I am deeply dissapointed. First of all the engine is too weak for the mass of the new car. Second the internal comfort id awful. The previous soft seats were replaced with hard cheap ones which are very very uncomfortable and give me back pain. Third the visibility is much worse than on 2003 model. Indeed the engine is slightly quiter, but overal impression is the same as on old model. Inside there is a lot of CHEAP plastic and designer who made the design is obviously does not hold diploma and is amateur. In sum - bad car for the money. I have been Toyota owner for more than 20 years but latest Camry put a break of my loyality to the company.
The reality is that regression to the mean is occuring in the mass market versions, just as problems occur in all mass market cars.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I'd have to know what they were rating.
What's the point?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Considering that Gary rags so much about Consumer Reports, I can't see how such self-reported, voluntary "consumer reviews" have any statistical validity.
Besides the last two cited are laughable:
1) Idles too fast - will move down road at 5-6 miles per hour w/o touching gas - very dangerous at stop signs as it will surge forward. 2) Cruise will not hold on hill - set at 65, up to 75 at bottom of hill. 3) Brakes - when brake applied, car surges/jogs forward before taking hold. 4)Poor gas milage 14 to 19 in town; 29 on highway. 5) Poor craftsmanship on interior. Carpets not down right, cap cover for seat track comes off. 6) Shifts hard/jerky 7) Drivers side auto up/down window- cannot put down several inches - goes all the way down or all the way up 8) Upon resuming cruise, it will accelerate so fast you are thrown back in your seat-like being shot out of a gun.
I replaced my 2003 Camry with this one and I am deeply dissapointed. First of all the engine is too weak for the mass of the new car. Second the internal comfort id awful. The previous soft seats were replaced with hard cheap ones which are very very uncomfortable and give me back pain. Third the visibility is much worse than on 2003 model. Indeed the engine is slightly quiter, but overal impression is the same as on old model. Inside there is a lot of CHEAP plastic and designer who made the design is obviously does not hold diploma and is amateur. In sum - bad car for the money. I have been Toyota owner for more than 20 years but latest Camry put a break of my loyality to the company.
As for "regression to the mean," this term gets bandied around a lot here, but it has no applicability to quality control of the lack thereof. Quality control is rooted in company policy; it's not something subject to random changes such as the weather.
I notice that no longer are the devotees screaming that there aren't really problems, that it's just the mistaken musings of unhappy buyers who haven't adjusted to their cars, etc.
WCNC TV newstory
Click on the video in middle of page to see online TV report.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
The two consumer reviews I've picked from Gary's selection, for example, are ludicrous. What auto tranny car doesn't move at the horrendous speed of 5-6 mph at idle? What car can defy gravity when going down a steep enough hill, cruise control or not? Plastic seat track cover that comes off, oh my! If you don't want the car to "rocket" when resuming cruise, accelerate with your foot first, then resume, especially if you're going uphill. Then the other guy says the engine is too weak. The car's only increased in weight by about 100 lbs, and the horsepower for the 4-cylinder is about the same compared to the 2003, so what's up with that?
Haven't had any plastic track covers come off on my GMs.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Surely being about the same age as me, you remember the bad old days when you were glad the car even started on cold mornings! Younger people today don't know how good they've got it!
link title
She came in with a 2005 Highlander Limited this morning.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
At least there is a real person on the other end of the review. With CR you are assuming they are dealing fairly.
But people whining about cars picking up speed going downhill is silly.
And as I pointed out, I'm sure you can find 50-60 complaints quite easily on any reasonably popular car; I gave the Chrysler 300 as an example. Now on an Isuzu Ascender, there may be NO complaints, because their sales are in the dumpster.
I'm not going to get into the CR ad nauseum debate, but I'm getting a little tired of all the arguments that this outfit is somehow "unfair." Well, check out what could be a better mousetrap here. Better yet, join their panel; I did.
Or did you not look?
That's called slanted reporting. You have an agenda that you set out to prove, and use selective reading to find only the people complaining. :P
I haven't once gotten less than 23mpg in my V6 Sienna minivan, I can't imagine 22mpg in a Camry. It's the driver, not the car.
The question at hand, is Toyota reliability problems a glitch? My position, it IS. Sure there were people happy with their Camry. Like larsb, that is willing to put up with squeaks and rattles in a new car.
Here is fair and balanced. This person gave the Camry a "10" I post his comments:
Looking for a basic family sedan, I drove numerous brands over many months. The quality of construction, ride, quietness, and legroom are excellent. While the 4 cylinder does not have the punch of the Honda Accord 4 cylinder, the comfort and quietness of the ride won out. Others have complained about the "pause" on downshift when hitting the gas. It's there. But it doesn't bother me the way I drive. Seating front and rear is excellent.
And I'm not "willing to put up with squeaks and rattles" in a new car. A more apt description would be that I am "someone who understands that cars are not bank vaults and they will have minor squeaks and rattles as a NORMAL part of being a car."
If you want "near total silence" while driving a car, you need to find another planet.
Not everyone feels they should listen to squeaks and rattles in a new car. I know you are familiar with the thread on "Squeaks and Rattles in the Camry Hybrid". Trying to listen to classical music with a squeak here and a thump there is not acceptable. I had to track down a squeak in my wife's Lexus. It drove me crazy till I found it. Yes I do expect to have them in an 18 year old vehicle. Not a vehicle still under warranty.
Well to be fair it should be the closest competitor to the 2007 Camry. The 2007 Accord. I see 28 owners of the 07 Camry giving it a rating under 5.0. I only see one Accord under 5.0.
And I reiterate, the point is, Toyota in there exuberance to sell the most vehicles have put out two trouble prone models in 2007. They have built their reputation on reliability and it is faltering.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Every car will have glitches, I guarantee it.
If you tell me your Buick/Toyota/Mercedes is perfect drive it over and I bet I can find 3-4 things wrong with it.
You are merely pointing out the 1 or 2 issues that a few owners are having with their new cars. Toyota sells millions of Camrys, of course people are going to report a few problems.
When we see a pattern, a recall is issued. Until then, we red flag the issue and follow it closely. It's too early to give the verdict.
The 6 speed auto is definitely red flagged, let's see how many of them are affected long-term and what Toyota does about it.
This is factually untrue.
A pattern developed early. Toyota did not issue a recall, it started formulating TSBs, which some dealers are STILL evidently not aware of because some people have had to obtain copies here to print and bring to service providers.
During that time, the general feedback provided to numerous owners was (and on numerous visits, sometimes to more than one dealer), there is no issue, the car is operating as designed, or they all do this, or the unit is adapting to your style of driving, or you have to re-learn how to drive a vehicle with a "Smart" transmission.
We even had 3 threads here at Edmunds shutdown related to Hesitation in the past year or so because people couldn't be civil about did the problem exist or not. Most if not all of the naysayers who tried to convince everyone that a problem didn't exist have been long long gone. TSBs have come and gone with updates to superscede older TSBs prepared in the process.
Please don't marginalize how far people have come looking to make sense of this. It's taken a lot of effort for them to get this front and center and addressed. For some, their experience is far from over.
Amen to tat.
All you said is right on.
I keep thinking about how this would have been handled posterwise if this were a Ford problem or GM problem being discussed in a thread about their car. We all know how it would have had a whole different tone to the posts.
As for the wait-and-see, I think that this was the snap-ring issue's real purpose and that was to put out PR about a minor problem. But in reality it's a big, wide spread problem. I have to say I'm much more impressed with Honda's handling of their 2nd gear overheating problem by coming out with a jury-rigged fix and having their dealers face it headon.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
TSB, recall, until they figure out which ones are affected (because not all of them are, obviously) and what the fix is, we won't have the final verdict.
I see new Camrys all over the place and have yet to see one on the side of the road broken down. The way some folks here talk you'd think that every single new Camry were on a tow truck.
Where's the roll eyes emotorcon?
ah, no. i believe you'll find people being pretty factual about it. you'll find the same for the postings on the NHTSA site. no one has suggested the sky is falling.
people have indicated their safety is compromised though by the hesitation behavior. :surprise:
there are posters here indicating they have absolutely no trouble with their Camry and it's their best vehicle yet. i don't think ANYONE wrote that can't be so.
but some population (and you don't know what it is, and neither do I, evidently Toyota doesn't either...hmmm) of the production IS defective.
no splitting hairs here, there or anywhere - so no further spin control required plz and thx.
here's a recent example of how Toyota isn't helping its customers:
camryowner1, "2007 Toyota Camry Transmission Questions" #596, 18 Sep 2007 12:36 pm
the cruise is working as designed (only if designed to work extremely poorly). :sick:
This is the Shameful Side of Lean raising its ugly head. It's Toyota's game and it's their responsibility to make good on their customer-centricity and focus on quality.
Edit: I'm reading the original complaint, and the owner is fussing about shifting when cruise is activated. Seems to me the function of cruise is to maintain a set speed, so it seems natural for the transmission to shift to the appropriate gear.
If he wants more control, the fix is simple - don't use cruise! Use your right foot to control the throttle and drive the car, for crying out loud.
The job of the cruise is to maintain a set speed, not a set gear.
meanoldteacher, "2007 Toyota Camry Transmission Questions" #560, 16 Sep 2007 9:33 pm
let's say though you're the unfortunate owner of a vehicle that hesitates. so how much hesitation and how long of a wait would you find reasonable to give Toyota?
me? none, and it should be fixed upon the very first visit to the dealership. if that's not possible, provide a new car without the behavior or unwind the deal. now that would be customer-centric!
on the cruise control issue: look, the purpose of cruise is to maintain a set speed. i do controls work. no self respecting controls engineer i know would design a cruise to operate as is being described. no one would. it's likely in it's current implementation, perhaps by virture of torque convertor design and gearing to add to premature part wear, driver and passenger discomfort, driver distraction, less than most efficient fuel economy, and just plain poor owner acceptance...
In that very post he writes "not even then if gagged by corporate", which means that Toyota is going to bat for him and the dealer is too incompetent to fix it.
Both examples you (plural, both of you) brought up are not clear-cut cases like you seem to think.
meanoldteacher needs to find another Toyota dealership.
To be honest I wasn't happy with my dealer. They forgot my antennae at delivery (maybe that's the same issue meanoldteacher has with radio reception, my exact symptom), and left greasy finger prints on the interior.
This isn't really Toyota's fault, though. They rushed the PDI and were careless at the service.
Who is to blame? DARCARS, who owns 355 Toyota in Rockville, MD. Not Toyota.
OK, so far we have cruise control that actually shifts gears to maintain speed (HEAVEN FORBID) and a sloppy PDI by the dealer that forgot an antennae and can't fix an issue despite Toyota corporate's attemps to "gag" the dealer into helping one of its customers.
:P