So basically then, Toyota forums (and Toyota itself) aren't any different than all the others. No worse, no better. So why all the rush to make this big deal of things Toyota has to deal with, when all the other automakers have the same situation--and act like a bunch of juveniles while doing so? Any ideas? BTW, I think your bias is beginning to show too.
Everyone has a bias, and almost nobody is very good at hiding it - let's not kid ourselves.
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"Some have discussed whether the post here are representative of a cross-section of owners "out there"? I suspect it's closer than we think"
Nah, I disagree. For one thing, taking the time to post on an internet board requires some passion about the topic - perhaps excitement over one's lovely new car, perhaps anger over its perceived flaws.
And then of course, there are the car enthusiasts, who are probably at least 75% of the folks posting here regularly. And they are hyper-vigilant people who (a) will often forgive a glitch or two with their own rides, they are car experts after all!, but will expect others' rides to be flawless or else there's a problem with that brand; (b) will often root for a brand or two and blind themselves to problems others perceive with the brand.
So you can't really can't count on the enthusiasts for a neutral view most of the time, and for the rest, the passion that brought them onto the boards in the first place will color their posts. Bad will be a really awful lemon, good will be the most fantastic car ever.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
But some of the people with no complaints at all will be watching the problems and solutions and will be willing to help others find quick solutions to problems. And that is good.
>So why all the rush to make this big deal of things Toyota has to deal with, when all the other automakers have the same situation--and act like a bunch of juveniles while doing so? Any ideas?
It's just the way things are done in other discussions and they are often even more exaggerated. So we can agree there are some things to work on here. And hopefully buyers won't be forgotten too much in the process.
>BTW, I think your bias is beginning to show too. :P
It looks like they fixed the right foot and screwed up the head, neck and left foot & leg.
What is more significant with the IIHS tests for 2007. There is not a single Toyota or Lexus in the best picks for safety. Is Toyota more interested in making big profits and selling the most cars, than they are safety? Up until this year their best seller was rated poor without optional side airbags. The second best seller the Corolla still does not offer side airbags as standard safety equipment on all trim levels.
The relatively minor differences in the individual Tundra ratings are due to vehicle and test variability (IIHS tested a 2wd, Toyota tested a 4wd). Overall frontal rating for each test is Good.
The 2006 Camry without optional side airbags was Poor in the side impact test, but still Good in the frontal test. With side airbags, the 2004-06 models were Good in the side test (which is why I specifically got side airbags in my 2004 and 2005s.)
Toyota doesn't have an IIHS "Top Safety Pick" currently because it hasn't been able to do well in the rear (whiplash) crash protection tests. But the following models score a Good in both the high-speed frontal and side tests (all now have standard side airbags except the FJ):
Prius Camry Avalon RAV4 Sienna FJ Cruiser Lexus ES Lexus IS Lexus GS
Stability control is standard on all of the above, except optional on the Prius, Camry, Avalon, and Sienna. (Stability control is a new requirement this year for the "Top Safety Pick" award -- it must be at least optional.)
My guess is that both the 4Runner and Tundra would do well in the side impact tests, because larger and higher-riding vehicles tend to do better in this test (look at the large number of SUVs with "Top Safety Pick" awards compared to cars).
Recalls are public information. They are mandated by the NHTSA when a risk to the driving public is determined. They are then published by the US Govt. How do you hide this?
c'mon..bashing is OK but keep it believable. You can't hide a recall.
Yes that forum 'flared up' in the beginning but recently it has been very very quiet save some rattles and misc annoyances.
But even if it were hundreds!!!!!! ( it wasn't it was more like 50 posters ) do you realize that as 210delray noted these are from a population of over 500,000 units sold since March 2006. If it's even 1000 unhappy owners then the incidence is 0.2% ( 2 out of 1000 ). The denominator in this equation is HUGE!!!!
There are bound to be some unhappy campers with this many owners...every year!!!!
As I'm sure you know from all your discussions here the IIHS criteria are the bleeding edge in terms new safety developments here in the US. Just when all vehicle makers had developed the technology to make moderate frontal crashes survivable with minor risks it then switched the emphasis to side crashes, especially in autos. Vehicles without side/curtain airbags fell to the bottom of the list; e.g. 2005 Fusion.
OK so now nearly all new vehicles have S/C airbags as at least optional equipment ( a few trucks still don't ) so the IIHS now switches the emphasis to minimizing whiplash injuries.
Without this new advancement in design of the seating no vehicle can get a Top Rating.
Next it will be Stability Control. No Stability Control = Low rating.
After that it will be minimizing injuries to pedestrians.
Then it will be advanced active accident avoidance systems ( under development ).
BTW, the European Insurance pitbull is about 5 yrs ahead of both the IIHS and certainly the NHTSA.
Toyota, did hide recalls for 8 years. I believe the camry for 8 solid years never had a recall in the 90's. Toyota, did "service campaigns" and had the customer come in for a oil change or what not and then the dealer's would replace the known bad parts. This gave the perception that Toyota, makes superior automobiles. There are lot's of links and posts on this site to various story's of past discussions and you have the power of the internet to dig up others. I am not making this up and don't feel like opening another can of worms on this issue. I dug up story's on this subject oh about 6 months ago for another edmunds.com member that took me about a hour to find but I did it. I'm not in the mood to have to prove you wrong as it's not my responsibility to make sure you all the threads and topics on news and views.
imidazol97, 62vetteefp, lemko, 1487, etc, will back my claim.
Are you saying that Toyota is not privy to these intended changes? That the insurance companies are out to discredit Toyota? Toyota has been on the trailing edge of safety for a long time. They charged for airbags when the competition was including them.
My point that you kind of glossed over was the pre 2007 Tundra was safer than the new one is. The Tacoma is safer than the new Tundra. That means that Toyota knew the rules just compromised on the new Tundra. Unless you have some other spin on its less than stellar rating compared to the other 2007 PU trucks in the class.
Yes service campaign existed but they weren't recalls.
All auto manufacturers have 'service campaigns'. Heck I can go onto GMI right now and show you at least two on GM products - currently. These are vehicle adjustments, corrections or enhancements but they are not recalls.
If this is your definition of recalls then there's a lot more 'recalls' out there - hiding in every maker's closet - than anyone is admitting to be.
Rocky, he is playing with semantics. Toyota did not fix or recall many problems when they should have. Toyota waited until problems with their vehicles was brought to light by media and others. They did exactly the same with the Front end, Steering, Sludge, Stalling Prius and now the auto transmission. Why fix a problem until you have a consensus. Now that Toyota is numero uno they are in every writers gun sights. They will not be able to side step and point at how bad number one GM is.
Hey you know what, we could just change the title of this thread to Toyota Bashers Anonymous, because I don't think folks are going to be able to conduct an academic discussion on this topic. Whaddya say, do we all agree? It's EXACTLY what Town Hall has been missing all these years. Cool, let's do it! ;-)
LOL
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Just trying to keep the GM bashers busy defending their foreign champions. Do you know how many years I have harbored ill feelings toward Toyota for building such a crappy engine in my 1964 FJ40? Now with Edmund's I get to vent those feelings. I had to put a CHEVY timing gear and CHEVY Valves in that Toyota 6 cylinder engine before it was worth a hoot. The valve covers said Lucky Lager on the inside. Would I like to have that FJ40 back. Darn right I would. Then put a small block Chevy V8 into give it reliability.
I know as well as anyone that Toyota had some good years in the 1990s. Now it is their turn in the hot seat. Being king of the mountain is not always easy.
yep, yep.......Being in the hot seat is a rough place to be. It goes along with being #1 Trust me I have dealt with it my whole life. I was raised in a GM, home and some of my friends picked on my car choice's and car company. They now get to absorb those arrows they shot at me.
-Rocky
P.S. 1964 FJ :surprise: Those things were pretty spartan.
I have always heard that that is a real common conversion for the old FJs, putting in a Chevy small block. That's cool. I had also heard that many of the original engines soldiered on for many years, so I dunno if it was a bad engine series or not. There weren't a whole ton of them out there to begin with, so data is sparse. In other countries that model used a diesel as often as not, which had a very good reputation.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I think they had resolved many problems with the engine by the early 1970s. They used very soft metal in the valves so they would burn very easily. The timing gear was fiber and stripped out. I had two replaced before 12k when the warranty was up. One valve job under warranty. When it was no longer covered I did the work myself and found that the parts were identical to the Chevy engine they had copied. Never had a problem after replacing the Toyota timing gear with a metal one from GM. I used harder valves on the last valve job I did and they were still fine when I sold it. I have thought of getting one of the older ones with a diesel that have found their way to Canada. Getting parts may be tough here.
I find it refreshing to see Toyota under the gun now. They have gotten a free ride for so long.
What if they ( Toyota ) weren't aware of the potential mistakes, errors or needed corrections at the time the vehicles were launched?
The vehicles are afterall just made by human hands and designed by human collective knowledge and they are very very complex. The Prius software reprogramming issue is one such item. Sludge is certainly another such issue. The initial transmission issues with a some of the early 2007 Camry's is another.
It is just not feasible for any large vehicle maker to foresee every single issue that might arise no matter what the level of prior testing is. A small vehicle maker can specialize in one small segment providing a limited number of vehicles. Toyota is no longer just a small import name. They now have larger volume so they will have larger production issues. Some issues will be corrected by recalls like the Tundra/Sequoia and some issues will be solved with TSB's and campaigns like the Camry transmission issues.
In today's political and product liability environment recalling vehicles will be the norm IMO. Your future vehicle will likely have some connecttion to the Internet. The easiest and least costly way for these notices to be communicated is for the manufacturer to send an email to your car notifying it of a needed recall or repair. When the issue is corrected the vehicle will send a return email to the mothership saying everything is A-OK. It'll be the same as the check-engine light coming on.
Toyota, did "service campaigns" and had the customer come in for a oil change or what not and then the dealer's would replace the known bad parts. This gave the perception that Toyota, makes superior automobiles
How is this a bad thing for the consumer?
One of the things I liked about Acura in their early days is that they would fix anything that went wrong, and not blink.
One time I went in for service on my 88 Integra and noticed on the work order that I had received a new muffler. I pointed out that I'd said nothing about the muffler. The Service Manager told me that the muffler had had 'rust spots' and that this shouldn't happen at 15,000 miles.
On another occasion, I'm sure that they replaced my CV joints without telling me (they stopped putting the info on the work orders, I think).
I started thinking that I didn't give a damn what broke on that car, because I knew Acura would fix it for free.
Were they trying to build a reputation? Sure. Did I benefit from that? You bet.
We are certainly entering the era when Toyota will need to pay special attention to employing the very best programmers it can get its hands on. Both of the problems you mentioned, the Camry TSB and Prius recall, were problems with computer glitches.
But it also needs to work ever harder with suppliers to ensure that something like that enormous ball joint recall on the Tundra doesn't happen again. In many ways, a carmaker's rep depends heavily on the quality of its suppliers.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I don't think for a minute that Toyota was aware of problems before the vehicles were sold. All these problems came about with usage. I do think they drug their feet on the Prius stalling issue. It was not until the NHTSA jumped in that Toyota got serious about the problem. I don't know why they tried to cover up the steering issues. I think that had the biggest impact in Japan. It could be like the Chrysler mini van rear door problem. The manufacturers take a calculated risk on known issues. Executives ask the question "Will it cost more to fix than litigate"?
Please don't overstate your case - it suggests you might be biased against Toyota.
PRIUS STALLS Officially, there have only been 33 cases of model year 2004-2005 Prius stalling reported to the National Highway Transportation Administration (NHTA). During that time period over 88,000 Prius have been sold in the U.S.
The government will reprimand Toyota and require the Japanese automaker to do a better job in recalls, but no laws were broken in a negligence case now under criminal investigation, a ministry official said yesterday.
The Ministry of Land, Infrastructure and Transport official, speaking on customary condition of anonymity, said a minor administrative penalty called "guidance" will be issued to Toyota Motor Corp as soon as today.
The government has the authority to impose fines and, if needed, imprison wrongdoers, in professional negligence cases, but the penalty being planned for Toyota includes no fines and will merely ask Toyota to make improvements on recall procedures and make a report to the ministry on the moves, the official said in a telephone interview.
The ministry's decision can be seen as a relief for Toyota because it determined that the company broke no laws, such as falsely reporting defects or fixing cars on the roads without recalls
Do you think those Prius owners went to the NHTSA before trying to get Toyota to fix the problem? The dozens that reported here had made several trips to the dealers. Many were towed in, had the computer reset and sent on their way. When they finally did come up with a fix they did the updates on all the Prius. Do you think that maybe any one of the 88,000 was a potential case of stalling?
I am biased against Toyota. I have several good reasons to be. Does that mean I should not try to warn potential customers of the way they treat customers with problems?
I am biased against Toyota. No problem. You have every right to be biased, just understand others have every right to go the other way.
I have several good reasons to be. No problem. I'm sure you do. Just understand others have good reasons not to be.
Does that mean I should not try to warn potential customers of the way they treat customers with problems?
You gotta do what you gotta do. Just be careful that your criticisms are believable, and that you're not unjustly criticising. Not many customers with problems are being treated badly, and it's kinda unfair to say otherwise. All said, this debate will never be won as long as people choose to overstate their cases.
What do you think? Were the cases against Toyota over stated? I assumed by the title of the thread that it was to discuss the current recalls and supposed cover up of problems.
The little problems have not even come up. All the complaints of squeaks and rattles on the 2007 Camry. That may be a small item. It is a pain if it is your new car and the dealer cannot get rid of it.
I don't see it as a glitch. I think Toyota has some major adjustments to make. They are suffering from growing too fast.
Were the cases against Toyota over stated? Yes, I believe some were. I believe some stories being told are a tad embellished, perhaps more from frustration than any other reason. I can't blame people for being that way,it's human nature and it isn't an uncommon reaction.
current recalls All automakers get recalls. Toyota is no exception. For a while there,Toyota had plenty of them. Not very many were anything more than niggly little things BTW. Now it's someone else's turn for recalls--haven't you been reading the news? The number of recalls alone isn't necessarily an indication of poor quality. It could be said that maybe--just maybe--an automaker with lots of recalls is being responsible by doing so. I wouldn't be too quick to judge an automaker by the number of recalls if I were you.
supposed cover up of problems Please show us where and when this happened in the good old USA. Not in our 'big brother sees all' society these days pal. One incident was reported a while back in Japan, but look at what some other automakers there--and in Korea--have had to deal with. Lots worse scandals than that, for sure. Also, if you want to talk about scandals in the USA, look again at that film by Michael Moore called "Roger and Me"--or take a look at what GM did during WW2 when they were making huge profits from war materiel being made in Germany!! Or how about the infamous Bricklin fiasco up in Canada.
The little problems have not even come up Whoa--perhaps you're getting a little ahead of yourself. We shouldn't criticize for things we don't know about, should we?
All the complaints of squeaks and rattles on the 2007 Camry. I believe it's unwise to make a judgement based on the small sampling of issues in these forums. Someone said earlier something about "hundreds of complaints" here. I asked the question "are we seeing hundreds of complaints, or the same people complaining hundreds of times"? You know as well as I do what the answer is to that question.
I don't see it as a glitch. I think Toyota has some major adjustments to make. They are suffering from growing too fast. You are certainly free to express any opinion you wish, but I suggest to you the facts don't support that one--at least not yet.
>All the complaints of squeaks and rattles on the 2007 Camry. I believe it's unwise to make a judgement based on the small sampling of issues in these forums.
It never fails that when problems are occuring in the favored vehicles it is always a case of amplification of a nonproblem by a problem poster posting hundreds of times in different places. I think they said the same thing about sludge. I recall another popular brand and same thing in 03 model year.
My logic tells me that the few represent lots of people who don't realize they have a problem, or believed their service writer who sad that it's normal, all of the cars do that, it has to learn your driving style, or it'll get better the more you drive it. Many people who are buying the Camrys are older and don't use the internet in a manner where they learn they are discussion groups where they can learn about problems and post their own concerns.
>I don't see it as a glitch. I think Toyota has some major adjustments to make. They are suffering from growing too fast.
It never fails that when problems are occuring in the favored vehicles .........................!! Boy, that's a stretch. It could also be said that it never fails because most realistic folks see it that way and express themselves accordingly. I've seen a good many examples where the same individuals flog a problem endlessly--maybe they feel "if once or twice is good, twenty times is better"! I'm sure you have seen this happen too.
Many people who are buying the Camrys are older and don't use the internet in a manner where they learn they are discussion groups where they can learn about problems and post their own concerns. That is a conspicuously speculative, and hopelessly flawed observation in my opinion. The internet is almost universal these days, and "older" doesn't mean folks aren't internet savvy. Besides the net, there's plenty of print, radio, and TV media coverage for those who don't choose computers as their source of info. Stereotyping "older" folks in that manner isn't really being fair. Common sense tells me you are really searching for reasons to make your point and bolster your opinion.
>sense tells me you are really searching for reasons to make your point and bolster your opinion.
I'm using your type of thinking but applying it better. You just don't like the outcome.
Most Camrys seem to have become the purchase of folks 50 and above in this area. As far as their being internet savvy that's malarky; I've taught various computer classes to older folks. As for print, radio, and TV coverage--that's coverage of problems when and if the media decides there is a problem worth covering since it's a Toyota, you know.
I think if you check out the Camry Hybrid threads you will find a quite a few folks with the same problems. I do not see a lot of spam in the thread. Most of these complaints are from dyed in the wool Toyota lovers. Some dealers have done kluged up repairs to get rid of the squeaks & rattles. Other dealers are perplexed. It is not a safety issue so corporate probably does not give a hoot. I know it is hard to accept that in the 1990s Toyota built better cars.
Well I know this is a little off subject but I read the threads of forums on this site and other sites and man a lot of Honda and Acura owners are experiencing lots of squeaks, rattles, pal. The TL, like I use to own is having major rattle problems from the speaker area's and some people have been to the shop six times for the same repair and still yet to get rid of the rattle. Of course the visor rattle my 05' TL, had never went away and I no longer had the car after I scheduled an appointment to get it fixed. I also read on the Acurazine thread the TL, had a noise coming from the passenger side seat and a guy had detail instructions using felt to rid the problem. So while we like to pick on Toyota, they aren't the only japanese automaker with quality glitches.
I can say for a fact that my '07 Camry (Kentucky built, 75% North American part content) has zero problems, EXCEPT a small crackle only when cold out and the car has not warmed up yet. When warm, no rattle. This does not concern me or bother me one bit, because my old Corolla had a similar rattle when brand new, and never got worse, and no other problems have come up (95,000 miles and going strong).
Toyota may have slipped a bit in quality, and so did Honda, and but they are both still tops.
The difference is Toyota has more money than any car maker, and they are concerned with keeping their quality tops. So, if they slip for a few years, you know they will be back to #1 soon.
Don't forget that Toyota's Lexus Division is #1 in all the surveys, so I am sure Toyota has the ability to stay #1.
So my opinion is yes, the recent quality issues are just a glitch.
Disclaimer: I may be biased, but my Toyotas have never let me down!
imidazol97: It never fails that when problems are occuring in the favored vehicles it is always a case of amplification of a nonproblem by a problem poster posting hundreds of times in different places. I think they said the same thing about sludge. I recall another popular brand and same thing in 03 model year.
Yet you don't believe the results posted by Consumer Reports, even though, whatever their flaws, they are far more comprehensive and at least represent an attempt at a proportional sampling of each vehicle's owner base, when compared to the comments section on this site.
Interestingly, I've noted that the problems on our vehicles (and my parents' vehicles) correspond exactly to the black dots on the Consumer Reports annual survey.
imidazol97: My logic tells me that the few represent lots of people who don't realize they have a problem, or believed their service writer who sad that it's normal, all of the cars do that, it has to learn your driving style, or it'll get better the more you drive it.
Logic tells me that this happens for EVERY vehicle. I'd like to see proof that Toyota owners display this mode of thinking more than owners of other vehicles.
imidazol97: Many people who are buying the Camrys are older and don't use the internet in a manner where they learn they are discussion groups where they can learn about problems and post their own concerns.
Given that Buick has the oldest owner base in the industry, couldn't the same line of reasoning be doubly applied to Buick?
For that matter, given that a hefty percentage of the sales of some GM brands are to rental customers (Pontiac, through February of this year, is at 44.9 percent), and rental car managers are unlikely to post on this site with problems, wouldn't that skew GM's results, too?
Noting a article written by GP Blumberg of the ny times news service.
Did the mfrs. of youth oriented cars miss their targets? Anticipated median age of a matrix driver 28.8.......Actual age 42.7 element 28.6 ...................... 44.7 vibe 48.2 ...................... 30.2 neon 22.7 .......................39.2 scion ??.......................... 50 !!!!!
The wording in the article is interesting. It says that Toyota realized there was a problem in the parts. That means they met specs and design which Toyota had given.
Earlier reports made it sound like a supplier had failed to provide a quality part, which actually would have been Toyota's responsibility to catch before using in production. Instead it sounds like Toyota's design was faulty.
If it is a design problem and they recall the 30,000 already sold that could cost Toyota over $100 million. If they have to go back to the drawing board it will destroy their plans for a big Tundra year. It will be interesting to see the sales figures for June. See if the buying public are even looking at the auto news. I also wonder if they will keep selling the 5.7L trucks in the system, knowing they could be defective. That would up being very embarrassing for Toyota.
Comments
So why all the rush to make this big deal of things Toyota has to deal with, when all the other automakers have the same situation--and act like a bunch of juveniles while doing so? Any ideas?
BTW, I think your bias is beginning to show too.
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Nah, I disagree. For one thing, taking the time to post on an internet board requires some passion about the topic - perhaps excitement over one's lovely new car, perhaps anger over its perceived flaws.
And then of course, there are the car enthusiasts, who are probably at least 75% of the folks posting here regularly. And they are hyper-vigilant people who (a) will often forgive a glitch or two with their own rides, they are car experts after all!, but will expect others' rides to be flawless or else there's a problem with that brand; (b) will often root for a brand or two and blind themselves to problems others perceive with the brand.
So you can't really can't count on the enthusiasts for a neutral view most of the time, and for the rest, the passion that brought them onto the boards in the first place will color their posts. Bad will be a really awful lemon, good will be the most fantastic car ever.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Agreed!!
It's just the way things are done in other discussions and they are often even more exaggerated. So we can agree there are some things to work on here. And hopefully buyers won't be forgotten too much in the process.
>BTW, I think your bias is beginning to show too. :P
See kirstie_h's post.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
What is more significant with the IIHS tests for 2007. There is not a single Toyota or Lexus in the best picks for safety. Is Toyota more interested in making big profits and selling the most cars, than they are safety? Up until this year their best seller was rated poor without optional side airbags. The second best seller the Corolla still does not offer side airbags as standard safety equipment on all trim levels.
The 2006 Camry without optional side airbags was Poor in the side impact test, but still Good in the frontal test. With side airbags, the 2004-06 models were Good in the side test (which is why I specifically got side airbags in my 2004 and 2005s.)
Toyota doesn't have an IIHS "Top Safety Pick" currently because it hasn't been able to do well in the rear (whiplash) crash protection tests. But the following models score a Good in both the high-speed frontal and side tests (all now have standard side airbags except the FJ):
Prius
Camry
Avalon
RAV4
Sienna
FJ Cruiser
Lexus ES
Lexus IS
Lexus GS
Stability control is standard on all of the above, except optional on the Prius, Camry, Avalon, and Sienna. (Stability control is a new requirement this year for the "Top Safety Pick" award -- it must be at least optional.)
My guess is that both the 4Runner and Tundra would do well in the side impact tests, because larger and higher-riding vehicles tend to do better in this test (look at the large number of SUVs with "Top Safety Pick" awards compared to cars).
Recalls are public information. They are mandated by the NHTSA when a risk to the driving public is determined. They are then published by the US Govt. How do you hide this?
c'mon..bashing is OK but keep it believable. You can't hide a recall.
But even if it were hundreds!!!!!! ( it wasn't it was more like 50 posters ) do you realize that as 210delray noted these are from a population of over 500,000 units sold since March 2006. If it's even 1000 unhappy owners then the incidence is 0.2% ( 2 out of 1000 ). The denominator in this equation is HUGE!!!!
There are bound to be some unhappy campers with this many owners...every year!!!!
OK so now nearly all new vehicles have S/C airbags as at least optional equipment ( a few trucks still don't ) so the IIHS now switches the emphasis to minimizing whiplash injuries.
Without this new advancement in design of the seating no vehicle can get a Top Rating.
Next it will be Stability Control. No Stability Control = Low rating.
After that it will be minimizing injuries to pedestrians.
Then it will be advanced active accident avoidance systems ( under development ).
BTW, the European Insurance pitbull is about 5 yrs ahead of both the IIHS and certainly the NHTSA.
Toyota, did hide recalls for 8 years. I believe the camry for 8 solid years never had a recall in the 90's. Toyota, did "service campaigns" and had the customer come in for a oil change or what not and then the dealer's would replace the known bad parts. This gave the perception that Toyota, makes superior automobiles. There are lot's of links and posts on this site to various story's of past discussions and you have the power of the internet to dig up others. I am not making this up and don't feel like opening another can of worms on this issue. I dug up story's on this subject oh about 6 months ago for another edmunds.com member that took me about a hour to find but I did it. I'm not in the mood to have to prove you wrong as it's not my responsibility to make sure you all the threads and topics on news and views.
imidazol97, 62vetteefp, lemko, 1487, etc, will back my claim.
-Rocky
My point that you kind of glossed over was the pre 2007 Tundra was safer than the new one is. The Tacoma is safer than the new Tundra. That means that Toyota knew the rules just compromised on the new Tundra. Unless you have some other spin on its less than stellar rating compared to the other 2007 PU trucks in the class.
Yes service campaign existed but they weren't recalls.
All auto manufacturers have 'service campaigns'. Heck I can go onto GMI right now and show you at least two on GM products - currently. These are vehicle adjustments, corrections or enhancements but they are not recalls.
If this is your definition of recalls then there's a lot more 'recalls' out there - hiding in every maker's closet - than anyone is admitting to be.
Rocky
LOL
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Rocky
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Rocky
I know as well as anyone that Toyota had some good years in the 1990s. Now it is their turn in the hot seat. Being king of the mountain is not always easy.
-Rocky
P.S. 1964 FJ :surprise: Those things were pretty spartan.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I find it refreshing to see Toyota under the gun now. They have gotten a free ride for so long.
What if they ( Toyota ) weren't aware of the potential mistakes, errors or needed corrections at the time the vehicles were launched?
The vehicles are afterall just made by human hands and designed by human collective knowledge and they are very very complex. The Prius software reprogramming issue is one such item. Sludge is certainly another such issue. The initial transmission issues with a some of the early 2007 Camry's is another.
It is just not feasible for any large vehicle maker to foresee every single issue that might arise no matter what the level of prior testing is. A small vehicle maker can specialize in one small segment providing a limited number of vehicles. Toyota is no longer just a small import name. They now have larger volume so they will have larger production issues. Some issues will be corrected by recalls like the Tundra/Sequoia and some issues will be solved with TSB's and campaigns like the Camry transmission issues.
In today's political and product liability environment recalling vehicles will be the norm IMO. Your future vehicle will likely have some connecttion to the Internet. The easiest and least costly way for these notices to be communicated is for the manufacturer to send an email to your car notifying it of a needed recall or repair. When the issue is corrected the vehicle will send a return email to the mothership saying everything is A-OK. It'll be the same as the check-engine light coming on.
How is this a bad thing for the consumer?
One of the things I liked about Acura in their early days is that they would fix anything that went wrong, and not blink.
One time I went in for service on my 88 Integra and noticed on the work order that I had received a new muffler. I pointed out that I'd said nothing about the muffler. The Service Manager told me that the muffler had had 'rust spots' and that this shouldn't happen at 15,000 miles.
On another occasion, I'm sure that they replaced my CV joints without telling me (they stopped putting the info on the work orders, I think).
I started thinking that I didn't give a damn what broke on that car, because I knew Acura would fix it for free.
Were they trying to build a reputation? Sure. Did I benefit from that? You bet.
But it also needs to work ever harder with suppliers to ensure that something like that enormous ball joint recall on the Tundra doesn't happen again. In many ways, a carmaker's rep depends heavily on the quality of its suppliers.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
PRIUS STALLS
Officially, there have only been 33 cases of model year 2004-2005 Prius stalling reported to the National Highway Transportation Administration (NHTA). During that time period over 88,000 Prius have been sold in the U.S.
33 Prius Owners Report Stall Problem - Software Update Required
TOYOTA STEERING
The government will reprimand Toyota and require the Japanese automaker to do a better job in recalls, but no laws were broken in a negligence case now under criminal investigation, a ministry official said yesterday.
The Ministry of Land, Infrastructure and Transport official, speaking on customary condition of anonymity, said a minor administrative penalty called "guidance" will be issued to Toyota Motor Corp as soon as today.
The government has the authority to impose fines and, if needed, imprison wrongdoers, in professional negligence cases, but the penalty being planned for Toyota includes no fines and will merely ask Toyota to make improvements on recall procedures and make a report to the ministry on the moves, the official said in a telephone interview.
The ministry's decision can be seen as a relief for Toyota because it determined that the company broke no laws, such as falsely reporting defects or fixing cars on the roads without recalls
Toyota to receive reprimand over steering problem
I am biased against Toyota. I have several good reasons to be. Does that mean I should not try to warn potential customers of the way they treat customers with problems?
No problem. You have every right to be biased, just understand others have every right to go the other way.
I have several good reasons to be.
No problem. I'm sure you do. Just understand others have good reasons not to be.
Does that mean I should not try to warn potential customers of the way they treat customers with problems?
You gotta do what you gotta do. Just be careful that your criticisms are believable, and that you're not unjustly criticising.
Not many customers with problems are being treated badly, and it's kinda unfair to say otherwise.
All said, this debate will never be won as long as people choose to overstate their cases.
The little problems have not even come up. All the complaints of squeaks and rattles on the 2007 Camry. That may be a small item. It is a pain if it is your new car and the dealer cannot get rid of it.
I don't see it as a glitch. I think Toyota has some major adjustments to make. They are suffering from growing too fast.
Yes, I believe some were. I believe some stories being told are a tad embellished, perhaps more from frustration than any other reason. I can't blame people for being that way,it's human nature and it isn't an uncommon reaction.
current recalls
All automakers get recalls. Toyota is no exception. For a while there,Toyota had plenty of them. Not very many were anything more than niggly little things BTW. Now it's someone else's turn for recalls--haven't you been reading the news? The number of recalls alone isn't necessarily an indication of poor quality. It could be said that maybe--just maybe--an automaker with lots of recalls is being responsible by doing so. I wouldn't be too quick to judge an automaker by the number of recalls if I were you.
supposed cover up of problems
Please show us where and when this happened in the good old USA. Not in our 'big brother sees all' society these days pal.
One incident was reported a while back in Japan, but look at what some other automakers there--and in Korea--have had to deal with. Lots worse scandals than that, for sure.
Also, if you want to talk about scandals in the USA, look again at that film by Michael Moore called "Roger and Me"--or take a look at what GM did during WW2 when they were making huge profits from war materiel being made in Germany!! Or how about the infamous Bricklin fiasco up in Canada.
The little problems have not even come up
Whoa--perhaps you're getting a little ahead of yourself. We shouldn't criticize for things we don't know about, should we?
All the complaints of squeaks and rattles on the 2007 Camry.
I believe it's unwise to make a judgement based on the small sampling of issues in these forums.
Someone said earlier something about "hundreds of complaints" here. I asked the question "are we seeing hundreds of complaints, or the same people complaining hundreds of times"?
You know as well as I do what the answer is to that question.
I don't see it as a glitch. I think Toyota has some major adjustments to make. They are suffering from growing too fast.
You are certainly free to express any opinion you wish, but I suggest to you the facts don't support that one--at least not yet.
I believe it's unwise to make a judgement based on the small sampling of issues in these forums.
It never fails that when problems are occuring in the favored vehicles it is always a case of amplification of a nonproblem by a problem poster posting hundreds of times in different places. I think they said the same thing about sludge. I recall another popular brand and same thing in 03 model year.
My logic tells me that the few represent lots of people who don't realize they have a problem, or believed their service writer who sad that it's normal, all of the cars do that, it has to learn your driving style, or it'll get better the more you drive it. Many people who are buying the Camrys are older and don't use the internet in a manner where they learn they are discussion groups where they can learn about problems and post their own concerns.
>I don't see it as a glitch. I think Toyota has some major adjustments to make. They are suffering from growing too fast.
I agree.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Boy, that's a stretch.
It could also be said that it never fails because most realistic folks see it that way and express themselves accordingly.
I've seen a good many examples where the same individuals flog a problem endlessly--maybe they feel "if once or twice is good, twenty times is better"!
I'm sure you have seen this happen too.
Many people who are buying the Camrys are older and don't use the internet in a manner where they learn they are discussion groups where they can learn about problems and post their own concerns.
That is a conspicuously speculative, and hopelessly flawed observation in my opinion.
The internet is almost universal these days, and "older" doesn't mean folks aren't internet savvy.
Besides the net, there's plenty of print, radio, and TV media coverage for those who don't choose computers as their source of info.
Stereotyping "older" folks in that manner isn't really being fair.
Common sense tells me you are really searching for reasons to make your point and bolster your opinion.
I'm using your type of thinking but applying it better. You just don't like the outcome.
Most Camrys seem to have become the purchase of folks 50 and above in this area. As far as their being internet savvy that's malarky; I've taught various computer classes to older folks. As for print, radio, and TV coverage--that's coverage of problems when and if the media decides there is a problem worth covering since it's a Toyota, you know.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
grako, "Toyota Camry Hybrid Rattles, Bumps, & Squeaks" #59, 18 Nov 2006 4:50 pm
-Rocky
Toyota may have slipped a bit in quality, and so did Honda, and but they are both still tops.
The difference is Toyota has more money than any car maker, and they are concerned with keeping their quality tops. So, if they slip for a few years, you know they will be back to #1 soon.
Don't forget that Toyota's Lexus Division is #1 in all the surveys, so I am sure Toyota has the ability to stay #1.
So my opinion is yes, the recent quality issues are just a glitch.
Disclaimer: I may be biased, but my Toyotas have never let me down!
Yet you don't believe the results posted by Consumer Reports, even though, whatever their flaws, they are far more comprehensive and at least represent an attempt at a proportional sampling of each vehicle's owner base, when compared to the comments section on this site.
Interestingly, I've noted that the problems on our vehicles (and my parents' vehicles) correspond exactly to the black dots on the Consumer Reports annual survey.
imidazol97: My logic tells me that the few represent lots of people who don't realize they have a problem, or believed their service writer who sad that it's normal, all of the cars do that, it has to learn your driving style, or it'll get better the more you drive it.
Logic tells me that this happens for EVERY vehicle. I'd like to see proof that Toyota owners display this mode of thinking more than owners of other vehicles.
imidazol97: Many people who are buying the Camrys are older and don't use the internet in a manner where they learn they are discussion groups where they can learn about problems and post their own concerns.
Given that Buick has the oldest owner base in the industry, couldn't the same line of reasoning be doubly applied to Buick?
For that matter, given that a hefty percentage of the sales of some GM brands are to rental customers (Pontiac, through February of this year, is at 44.9 percent), and rental car managers are unlikely to post on this site with problems, wouldn't that skew GM's results, too?
Did the mfrs. of youth oriented cars miss their targets?
Anticipated median age of a matrix driver 28.8.......Actual age 42.7
element 28.6 ...................... 44.7
vibe 48.2 ...................... 30.2
neon 22.7 .......................39.2
scion ??.......................... 50 !!!!!
Earlier reports made it sound like a supplier had failed to provide a quality part, which actually would have been Toyota's responsibility to catch before using in production. Instead it sounds like Toyota's design was faulty.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,